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New war in Europe, courtesy of Putin


elijah

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21 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

Economic suicide? How often did I hear that in the last 30 years, how often did "experts" anticipate the downfall of the German economy? Yet, Germany became stronger and stronger. It has one of the most, if not the most resilient economies on the planet. We can deal with that.

And what is your proposal? Bowing down to Putin? Handing over Ukraine? And while we are at it, why not add Poland and the Baltic states? 

 

Well said.  

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23 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

Economic suicide? How often did I hear that in the last 30 years, how often did "experts" anticipate the downfall of the German economy? Yet, Germany became stronger and stronger. It has one of the most, if not the most resilient economies on the planet. We can deal with that.

And what is your proposal? Bowing down to Putin? Handing over Ukraine? And while we are at it, why not add Poland and the Baltic states? 

 

I agree with everything and tnx god for Germany being that economic powerhouse, however this crisis is a grave reminder that Germany and EU as a whole owe an EU army for the protection of the people of Europe. And that army must be operational and able to protect the territory of EU. Because what's the alternative? Today Ukraine, tomorrow Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, the Baltic states... Next is Austria and then Germany. The eastern part still remembers what it was, obviously.

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1 hour ago, elijah said:

I agree with everything and tnx god for Germany being that economic powerhouse, however this crisis is a grave reminder that Germany and EU as a whole owe an EU army for the protection of the people of Europe. And that army must be operational and able to protect the territory of EU. Because what's the alternative? Today Ukraine, tomorrow Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, the Baltic states... Next is Austria and then Germany. The eastern part still remembers what it was, obviously.

Yes. There is still many people who lived in GDR and romanticise with it

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1 hour ago, lex92 said:

Yes. There is still many people who lived in GDR and romanticise with it

To be fair, people may romanticise certain things about the daily life in the former GDR but they certainly don't have a positive look onto the Soviet occupation. I would like to argue, most people back then, especially in the later years, were rather ambivalent because the East German citizens hardly ever had contact with the Soviet troups, unless you were on one of those school trips to one of their military camps as part of the "German-Soviet Friendship". Back in school you were supposed to write an essay about the impressions you made. :doh:

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43 minutes ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

To be fair, people may romanticise certain things about the daily life in the former GDR but they certainly don't have a positive look onto the Soviet occupation. I would like to argue, most people back then, especially in the later years, were rather ambivalent because the East German citizens hardly ever had contact with the Soviet troups, unless you were on one of those school trips to one of their military camps as part of the "German-Soviet Friendship". Back in school you were supposed to write an essay about the impressions you made. :doh:

Well, the whole system was unser the propagandistic agenda of UdSSR. Not many GDR citizens may have known citizens of UdSSR, but they clearly were influenced by sowiet culture and politics. And there was an ambivalence, because people in GDR (mostly illegally) were able to find out about american and western european culture. So at that time they didn't want to live in that state. They wanted democrazy. At the same time nobody was homeless, they all had their jobs, their communities. But many of them weren't winner of the transformation after the fall of Berlin wall. They lost their jobs, they feared migration etc...So nowadays they symphatizise with Putin and Trump and their antidemocratic tendencys, because they want a leader with a protecting hand. That's one of the reasons why AfD is so big in easter german federal states. Dictatorships always have the biggest chance if people feel like they can't help themselves.

My mother, now 56 was a GDR citizen in Leipzig (where I still live). She doesn't romanticise about GDR, but many people in the smaller cities do.

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2 hours ago, karbatal said:

Putin is not going to invade any EU country. What kind of nonsense is that? 
Really guys get a grip! 

He has the power to do what he wants and he likes to use it

They dont care about international laws, contracts or organisations, he would love to break EU

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17 minutes ago, dollhouse said:

He has the power to do what he wants and he likes to use it

They dont care about international laws, contracts or organisations, he would love to break EU

I wish you stopped saying nonsense

What is next, he will get back Alaska? It’s bordering Russian territory too. See how absurd the idea is?

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6 hours ago, karbatal said:

Putin is not going to invade any EU country. What kind of nonsense is that? 
Really guys get a grip! 

Don’t mind. It is no use to discuss with these people. They have made up their minds long time ago that evil Russia will “invade” their homes and kidnap their children even if that means World War 3. Putin is the boogymen portrayed by the US press. There is no rational logic behind these thoughts, they do not abide by any reason, even if you present them facts right in the face there is no discussion just bias and hate bandwagon. No complexity, no knowledge of the subject, it is just black and white thinking, good and evil, very simple and very palatable for digest.

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33 minutes ago, Nessie said:

Don’t mind. It is no use to discuss with these people. They have made up their minds long time ago that evil Russia will “invade” their homes and kidnap their children even if that means World War 3. Putin is the boogymen portrayed by the US press. There is no rational logic behind these thoughts, they do not abide by any reason, even if you present them facts right in the face there is no discussion just bias and hate bandwagon. No complexity, no knowledge of the subject, it is just black and white thinking, good and evil, very simple and very palatable for digest.

Garbage.  People can make up their own minds.  The lecturing from the anti USA brigade on this thread is staggering. 

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1 hour ago, Nessie said:

Don’t mind. It is no use to discuss with these people. They have made up their minds long time ago that evil Russia will “invade” their homes and kidnap their children even if that means World War 3. Putin is the boogymen portrayed by the US press. There is no rational logic behind these thoughts, they do not abide by any reason, even if you present them facts right in the face there is no discussion just bias and hate bandwagon. No complexity, no knowledge of the subject, it is just black and white thinking, good and evil, very simple and very palatable for digest.

What’s so complex in occupying another country territory in 2022 Europe? Even if there is a Russian speaking ppl in that territory? If that is excused, all hell in Europe would break, because many countries have population from its neighbouring countries within its territory. But changing territories in 2022 is idiotic. Russia hardly manages the territory it has to rule presently. And it’s a pattern.

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7 hours ago, karbatal said:

Putin is not going to invade any EU country. What kind of nonsense is that? 
Really guys get a grip! 

Wait and see if no consequences come out of this second annexation of Ukrainian territory. Do you know that Baltics have like 20-30 percent Russian minority? Do you know that they were part of the Russian empire? Aren’t they in EU? I would hardly be surprised if Putin sends peacekeepers there next.

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5 hours ago, karbatal said:

I wish you stopped saying nonsense

What is next, he will get back Alaska? It’s bordering Russian territory too. See how absurd the idea is?

Why? Putin would love to see EU long gone and European states weak, divided and fending for themselves. Plus he sees EU as an US lapdog. EU is not as protected as US, it has become obvious so the Alaska analogy is kind of absurd

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26 minutes ago, elijah said:

Wait and see if no consequences come out of this second annexation of Ukrainian territory. Do you know that Baltics have like 20-30 percent Russian minority? Do you know that they were part of the Russian empire? Aren’t they in EU? I would hardly be surprised if Putin sends peacekeepers there next.

Putin will not send his army to a country that is a NATO member to unleash 30 military forces against Russia. He is not that stupid. Thus, as far as we know those baltic states are not shelling russian speakers like the coup goverment in Kiev is doing in the east of Ukraine. There is no reason to intervene in anywhere else besides Donetsk and Lugansk, unless Russia’s army is openly attacked elsewhere. A general war in Ukraine still remains a possibility if an agreement cannot be reach. Time is running out.

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17 minutes ago, LSD said:

 

Time is up. The war has began. By tomorrow someone will have to surrender its position on the matter of Donbass dispute, either the Kiev goverment will be forced to aknowledge that they can no more reclain the east territory by force or Moscow will be forced to back down its intentions to create a buffer zone against enemy forces. I bet that even risking severe sanctions from the west, Russia will keep its army there until secures that region even it this war escalates to a general war deep in the central Ukraine territory, either way Russia cannot control a hostile territory outside of Donetsk and Lugansk. If Putin orders a full occupation of the entire Ukraine territory he has lost his mind.

 

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37 minutes ago, Nessie said:

Putin will not send his army to a country that is a NATO member to unleash 30 military forces against Russia. He is not that stupid. Thus, as far as we know those baltic states are not shelling russian speakers like the coup goverment in Kiev is doing in the east of Ukraine. There is no reason to intervene in anywhere else besides Donetsk and Lugansk, unless Russia’s army is openly attacked elsewhere. A general war in Ukraine still remains a possibility if an agreement cannot be reach. Time is running out.

Coup government in Kiev? Really? Where do u get your information? That government was freely elected. As for the Russian speakers in the Baltics, Putin could easily organise the local "governments"  to "attack" the Russians and then he will conveniently have an excuse to send his "peacekeepers". As for NATO: Putin did alot with helping Trump getting elected and thus weakening NATO and the US-EU relations. Its no surprise that at that time Macron and Merkel put up the prospect of creating a real EU army. Because even today Fox News is radiating the rednecks in US how cool Putin is and how insignificant Ukraine is and how its pretty much Russia. But it isn't. 

Agreement won't be reached. Will Brazil be OK to get part of its territory annexed by say Argentina? Would the Brazilians endorse it?

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32 minutes ago, elijah said:

Coup government in Kiev? Really? Where do u get your information? That government was freely elected. As for the Russian speakers in the Baltics, Putin could easily organise the local "governments"  to "attack" the Russians and then he will conveniently have an excuse to send his "peacekeepers". As for NATO: Putin did alot with helping Trump getting elected and thus weakening NATO and the US-EU relations. Its no surprise that at that time Macron and Merkel put up the prospect of creating a real EU army. Because even today Fox News is radiating the rednecks in US how cool Putin is and how insignificant Ukraine is and how its pretty much Russia. But it isn't. 

Agreement won't be reached. Will Brazil be OK to get part of its territory annexed by say Argentina? Would the Brazilians endorse it?

It is a coup goverment because in 2014 it deposed by force the previous elected government which was pro-russia. There is no shame to recognize that fact, even the current Ukraine government acknowledges and celebrates that they toppled the previous government with a bloody “dignity revolution” as they call that Maidan revolt. Sadly coups still happens in the world, in this case it was a very graphic coup that they have no shame to admit victory by the use of force to oust former president Viktor Yanukovych.

As for the rest of your comments, i cannot comment on theories that Russia may or may not plot against the EU, even if it sounds interesting on paper for cold war inspired James Bond movies, until it happens in real life we cannot discuss “what ifs”. If there were the case we would be discussing how the US would react to an enemy force at its doorsteps in the hypothetical event of Canada and Mexico siding with a military alliance leaded by an overseas enemy superpower like Russia or China.

Anyway, nice discuss with you, at least you are attacking the message, not the messager, unlike a few others in this thread. Good night.

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6 hours ago, karbatal said:

I wish you stopped saying nonsense

What is next, he will get back Alaska? It’s bordering Russian territory too. See how absurd the idea is?

Its a known fact that its Russian interest to pit EU countries againts each other and weaken EU

Putin said just on tv that he is ready to use nucklear missels against western countries if needed

Russian troops are currently attacking several cities in Ukraine and missels are launched to capital

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4 minutes ago, Nessie said:

It is a coup goverment because in 2014 it deposed by force the previous elected government which was pro-russia. There is no shame to recognize that, even the current Ukraine government recognized that they toppled the previous government with a bloody “revolution” as they call that Maidan revolt. Sadly coups still happens in the world, in this case it was a very graphic coup that they have no shame to admit victory by the use of force to oust Victor Yanukovitch.

As for the rest of your comments, i cannot comment on theories that Russia may or may not plot against the EU, even if it sounds interesting on paper for cold war inspired James Bond movie, until it happens in real life we cannot discuss “what ifs”. If there were the case we would be discussing how the US would react to an enemy alliance at its doorsteps in the hypothetical event of Canada and Mexico siding with a military alliance leaded by an overseas enemy superpower like Russia or China.

Anyway, nice discuss with you, at least you are attacking the message, not the messager, unlike a few others in this thread. Good night.

Oh "coup" like meaning that the previous president was toppled by the Maidan protests? Well I still would not call the present government "coup government". In Bulgaria many governments were toppled by protests and I would never call the next one "coup" government. More likely the previous government was doing smith seen as wrong by the majority of the ppl then the protests toppled it to make way for the next freely elected one. In that sense I strongly disagree the Kiev government is a "coup" one. More likely the previous president fucked up when he decided he won't ratify the EU-Ukraine association agreement which caused the protests and which the majority of the Ukrainians disliked. Of course this is a talking point of Putin - the Kiev "coup" government. Which is kind of ironic, because he has had the power for 23 years and he has practically liquidated any opposition (and changed the consituation last year so that for him the two term presidency doesn't apply - very democratic I must add). So practically in Russia there could be no "coup" government, because of his grip on the military, police etc.

As for the so called "theories", those feel more than real to Lithuanians and Latvians (and I would guess Estonians, Poles etc) and I have friends there, with whom I ve discussed this matter. Those "theories" are so unreliable that Lithuania reinstated compulsory military service a month after Crimea annexation after having voluntary military service for more than a decade. Although I disagree with you on all accounts regarding Putin, NATO, Eastern Europe, US role in this crisis or the Ukrainian situation, good night to you too :).

 

 

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4 hours ago, elijah said:

Wait and see if no consequences come out of this second annexation of Ukrainian territory. Do you know that Baltics have like 20-30 percent Russian minority? Do you know that they were part of the Russian empire? Aren’t they in EU? I would hardly be surprised if Putin sends peacekeepers there next.

Iliya, I really doubt you truly believe what you just wrote 

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2 hours ago, dollhouse said:

Its a known fact that its Russian interest to pit EU countries againts each other and weaken EU

Putin said just on tv that he is ready to use nucklear missels against western countries if needed

Russian troops are currently attacking several cities in Ukraine and missels are launched to capital

The only evidence of that has a name: Cambridge Analytica. Bannon made Brexit posible, the real thing that has weaken the EU. 

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Funny thing is that the west had no problem when Kosovo decided to be independent of Serbia and most West countries run to recognize it and turned the country into a GINORMOUS OTAN military base. 

That surely is soooooooo different from East Ukraine independent republics…

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4 hours ago, Jazzy Jan said:

Garbage.  People can make up their own minds.  The lecturing from the anti USA brigade on this thread is staggering. 

Ok. Sure. Let’s fear that Putin invide us. Just like far right in Spain claims that Morocco will invide us. Or European xenophobics fear that Europe will be Muslim in 2075. 

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