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New war in Europe, courtesy of Putin


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2 hours ago, Nessie said:

https://amp.dw.com/en/nord-stream-2-the-gas-pipelines-second-power-struggle/a-60613442

The pipeline belongs to the Russian state-owned company Gazprom and was built with the backing of five European energy firms. ...

 

I was talking about an investment by the German state/government. I could care less if there are German companies involved and will lose their investment in case Nord Stream 2 will never operate. The project itself was always under discussion and in result they should not act surprised now. They are free to send their complaints to Gerhard Schröder at Gazprom. 

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1 hour ago, dollhouse said:

Putin and Lavrov are wiping their asses with these Western sanctions, as expected

Only way to stop them is to put hard on hard with force

No sanctions in relation to the current situation in Ukraine have been imposed yet. There are some minor sanctions still in place in regards to Russias invasion in Crimea.

Putin and Lavrov personally could care less. They have enriched themselves over the years and certainly will not starve in the future. Well, as long as they stay in Russia. The new sanctions will basically cut off all financial relations of Russia to the rest of the World. No money will flow in or out of Russia. Russia will not be able to sell bonds to finance their household. Keep in mind, mighty Russia is only mighty on a military basis and this only because of nuclear weapons. In regards to everything else economically Russia is a midget. Their GDP is slightly higher than the GDP of Switzerland. Except for natural gas, oil and some mineral ressources, this country has nothing else that is competitive or needed around the globe. Russia can still work with China, I guess. Well, as a Chinese colony more or less. Russia may take a look at some African nations that "enjoy" a cooperation with China. Does Putin know that he will need to bow to Winnie Pooh at some point? This is going to be very interesting. 

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48 minutes ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

I was talking about an investment by the German state/government. I could care less if there are German companies involved and will lose their investment in case Nord Stream 2 will never operate. The project itself was always under discussion and in result they should not act surprised now. They are free to send their complaints to Gerhard Schröder at Gazprom. 

Let’s see how this economic suicide will turn out when very soon Germany and the rest of Europe will have to pay double the price, at least €2,000 per thousand cubic meters of gas, or even more. Germans are pragmatic and they will soon find out that being a client state of the US is pretty darn expensive.

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22 minutes ago, Nessie said:

Let’s see how this economic suicide will turn out when very soon Germany and the rest of Europe will have to pay double the price, at least €2,000 per thousand cubic meters of gas, or even more. Germans are pragmatic and they will soon find out that being a client state of the US is pretty darn expensive.

We are already paying skyrocketing prices.  I do wonder how we don’t revolt. 

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Time to go green and no, I am not a treehugger, but obviously what this hot mess is teaching us is that we have to finally diversify our energy sources and think ahead. Green technology needs to be mass produced so that it becomes more inexpensive. Then people like Putin and some regions in the Middle East can suck it. 

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38 minutes ago, Nessie said:

Let’s see how this economic suicide will turn out when very soon Germany and the rest of Europe will have to pay double the price, at least €2,000 per thousand cubic meters of gas, or even more. Germans are pragmatic and they will soon find out that being a client state of the US is pretty darn expensive.

Economic suicide? How often did I hear that in the last 30 years, how often did "experts" anticipate the downfall of the German economy? Yet, Germany became stronger and stronger. It has one of the most, if not the most resilient economies on the planet. We can deal with that.

And what is your proposal? Bowing down to Putin? Handing over Ukraine? And while we are at it, why not add Poland and the Baltic states? 

 

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33 minutes ago, Cyber-Raga said:

Time to go green and no, I am not a treehugger, but obviously what this hot mess is teaching us is that we have to finally diversify our energy sources and think ahead. Green technology needs to be mass produced so that it becomes more inexpensive. Then people like Putin and some regions in the Middle East can suck it. 

In Germany 45% is coming from renewables (solar & wind). Was already at 55% the year before but decreased due to weather conditions. This is compensated by coal (20%) and nuclear (13%) and gas. In general, gas, nuclear and coal have decreased significantly over the last decade. 

The biggest problem when it comes to renewables is to find ways to store the energy for longer times. And of course, the mindset of the people as well. As always, everyone is so open and in favor of renewables but the moment a wind turbine is supposed to be erected in vicinity of someones backyard or if above ground powerlines can be seen anywhere near, people start to cry foul and will try to block all construction. 

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2 hours ago, Cyber-Raga said:

Time to go green and no, I am not a treehugger, but obviously what this hot mess is teaching us is that we have to finally diversify our energy sources and think ahead. Green technology needs to be mass produced so that it becomes more inexpensive. Then people like Putin and some regions in the Middle East can suck it. 

Sadly the result will be nuclear energy. Mark my words.

 

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16 hours ago, Junior said:

Unfortunately a lot of people think like that in Eastern European countries (maybe generally?). In Serbia we have a lesbian butch femme prime minister and nobody questions that but as an openly gay man they will beat you up in the streets.

 

Sad that Julia was only gay4pay tho. 😂😂

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10 minutes ago, Genevieve Vavance said:

Unfortunately a lot of people think like that in Eastern European countries (maybe generally?). In Serbia we have a lesbian butch femme prime minister and nobody questions that but as an openly gay man they will beat you up in the streets.

 

Sad that Julia was only gay4pay tho. 😂😂

Redneck mentality.

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58 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Sadly the result will be nuclear energy. Mark my words.

 

France announced it will open 26 reactors. Unfortunately no real alternative is seen in sight. Green energy would not become leading in the near future.

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8 hours ago, Nonoka said:

...For me now, the question is how far Putin is willing to go to see his security demands fulfilled. I highly doubt that even if Ukraine would let go of these separatist territories (and NATO accepts), that Russia would stop there and withdraw its forces. Putin seemed quite unhinged to me in his speech yesterday - talking about how the creation of independent Ukraine should have never happened (so basically denying the legitimacy of Ukrainian state) and that Ukraine could quickly build nuclear weapons to challenge Russia (which is an absolutely outlandish claim, according to pretty much any analysis I've read).

I'm sorry, but no matter how big the historic heritage Ukraine shares with Russia, his rhetoric yesterday against the country was totally unacceptable and definitely had the tone of war in it. And I don't think Putin has much right to complain how the Ukrainian government is a NATO puppet regime, illegitimate etc. - given that he just recently propped up the dictatorship in Belarus and help them beat down huge protests by society (did people here forget about that?).

And he didn't just stop at Ukraine - he explicitly talked about how allowing the former Soviet republics to break away was a 'historic mistake' (even though they did so out of free will - ask any Estonian for example what they think about their country's "membership" in the Soviet Union).

To clarify - I'm under no illusion that NATO, and within them particularly the US, are these big moral defenders of freedom and sovereignty as they like to portray themselves. But the Russian regime under Putin definitely isn't interested in letting its former partner states have an independent future either, that much he made clear yesterday. And whether Russia likes it or not, the majority of Ukrainians today (but also e.g. Georgians, Moldavians) do see their future as part of the EU and NATO (check this out or this) - they do not want to live under a Russian sphere of influence as Belarussians for example are forced to. (Oh and by the way: the claim by Putin that Russia is being 'surrounded' by NATO is highly exaggerated anyway - not even 10 percent of Russia borders on NATO countries, see here).

I don't know where this is going to end, but again, speaking as a Hungarian-Romanian, I am quite happy atm that both countries are inside NATO and EU and with that, somewhat safe and sound from an economic and security perspective...I don't see this conflict de-escalating anytime soon.

 

Multumesc ❤️

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4 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

Economic suicide? How often did I hear that in the last 30 years, how often did "experts" anticipate the downfall of the German economy? Yet, Germany became stronger and stronger. It has one of the most, if not the most resilient economies on the planet. We can deal with that.

And what is your proposal? Bowing down to Putin? Handing over Ukraine? And while we are at it, why not add Poland and the Baltic states? 

 

When it comes to modern technologys Germany is very behind that can threat the economic growth in future. Also too less young people, so we need immigration and don't forget that our former stability garant Merkel is no chancellor anymore. 

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54 minutes ago, lex92 said:

When it comes to modern technologys Germany is very behind that can threat the economic growth in future. Also too less young people, so we need immigration and don't forget that our former stability garant Merkel is no chancellor anymore. 

While Germany may not be a world leader in all this social media stuff, there are tons of modern technologies developed in Germany. The difference is that none of it is as in the face as Facebook, Tick Tock etc. and companies are rather quiet about their developments. There are hundreds of Mittelstand companies that are word leaders in what they do, especially in the field of mechanical engineering. There are other examples. Even the automotive industry. They may have had a late start but mark my words, within two to three years they (and Hyundai) will easily put Tesla in its place, unless Tesla comes up with new, more exciting models designwise and finally reaches a quality level that justifies their price. Tesla is so overvalued, it's not even funny. And what about the one and only quantum computer in Europe at Forschungszentrum Jülich. Again, there is much going on behind the scenes in Germany that hardly anyone ever talks about. If Germany plays its cards right they will be leader in all kinds of renewable energies. Development, not necessarily production. We all know how China ruined the German solar panel production a decade ago by selling their products at prices that were lower than their production costs. Just another example when the German government did believe in China as a fair business partner. When things became way too obvious to be denied, it was too late. 

Absolutely agree with immigration. 

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11 hours ago, Nessie said:

What the west fails to understand is that Ukraine is not a unified country, millions of people in the east of Ukraine do not want to be part of this Ukraine alliance with EU and NATO, those people speak russian as their mother language and are effectivelly cut out from Ukraine since 2014 when they did not accept the coup imposed on them during the Maidan protests, if they were happy with it they would never have declared those republics independence and fight for its defense during the Ukraine attempts to retake military control of those areas. They rather die than be in this country where they are seen as subcitizens. It is no wonder why they were celebrating yesterday.

You are right, Eastern Ukraine is quite different, there's a clear dividing line between West/Central and the Eastern part of the country when it comes to views on Russia and who to choose as partner. Which is why part of me thinks that in one way, it would actually benefit Ukraine if it really just let these rebel territories go and accept their independence (plus Crimea) -  let them seek association or integration or whatever they want with Russia, while the rest of the country can move ahead on its path towards EU and NATO membership (obviously, that would require both organizations to actually get serious about membership plans).

However, this creates another set of problems (as in other countries around the world using Russia's strategy to re-draw their preferred borders) and as we speak, such a "solution" seems to be off the table anyway as Russia just demanded once again they want all of Ukraine de-militarized and the central government to give up its NATO plans. So what will happen now is anyone's guess....

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7 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

While Germany may not be a world leader in all this social media stuff, there are tons of modern technologies developed in Germany. The difference is that none of it is as in the face as Facebook, Tick Tock etc. and companies are rather quiet about their developments. There are hundreds of Mittelstand companies that are word leaders in what they do, especially in the field of mechanical engineering. There are other examples. Even the automotive industry. They may have had a late start but mark my words, within two to three years they (and Hyundai) will easily put Tesla in its place, unless Tesla comes up with new, more exciting models designwise and finally reaches a quality level that justifies their price. Tesla is so overvalued, it's not even funny. And what about the one and only quantum computer in Europe at Forschungszentrum Jülich. Again, there is much going on behind the scenes in Germany that hardly anyone ever talks about. If Germany plays its cards right they will be leader in all kinds of renewable energies. Development, not necessarily production. We all know how China ruined the German solar panel production a decade ago by selling their products at prices that were lower than their production costs. Just another example when the German government did believe in China as a fair business partner. When things became way too obvious to be denied, it was too late. 

Absolutely agree with immigration. 

They have been telling about Europe downfall for decades too. And look at us.

As long as a country or wide region has a strong middle class, things will be alright. True that the population is poorer now than 30 years ago in comparison but still…

Remember when the Wall Street preppies were aplauding Brazil and India as the new economy engines of the world? 
 

The best way to know which regions are doing well is to look at how the population coped with the pandemic. Some had to beg for food and others got every month money from the government. 
 

Downfall my ass 

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17 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

No sanctions in relation to the current situation in Ukraine have been imposed yet. There are some minor sanctions still in place in regards to Russias invasion in Crimea.

Putin and Lavrov personally could care less. They have enriched themselves over the years and certainly will not starve in the future. Well, as long as they stay in Russia. The new sanctions will basically cut off all financial relations of Russia to the rest of the World. No money will flow in or out of Russia. Russia will not be able to sell bonds to finance their household. Keep in mind, mighty Russia is only mighty on a military basis and this only because of nuclear weapons. In regards to everything else economically Russia is a midget. Their GDP is slightly higher than the GDP of Switzerland. Except for natural gas, oil and some mineral ressources, this country has nothing else that is competitive or needed around the globe. Russia can still work with China, I guess. Well, as a Chinese colony more or less. Russia may take a look at some African nations that "enjoy" a cooperation with China. Does Putin know that he will need to bow to Winnie Pooh at some point? This is going to be very interesting. 

Sanctions have been ordered by EU, Norway, USA, Great Britain and Canada for the current situation

And Putin and Lavrov have responded 

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Blinken has cancelled meeting with Lavrov as Russia is invading eastern Ukraine

People that met Russian foreign minister are doubting Lavrovs mental health as his statements are getting bizarre and rude

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1 hour ago, dollhouse said:

Blinken has cancelled meeting with Lavrov as Russia is invading eastern Ukraine

People that met Russian foreign minister are doubting Lavrovs mental health as his statements are getting bizarre and rude

This guy still owes the City of Berlin, citizens and authorities, a big apology for his behaviour in relation to a missing teenage girl a few years ago. Making some serrious claims that Berlin authorities were not looking for the girl that was allegedly kidnapped (by immigrants?) because her family came from the former Soviet Union. And Russia considers those people still the citizens of Russia and therefore have to intervene on their behalf. What happened was that large parts of that community started demonstrating against Berlin authorities on the basis of false claims. Even the Russian parliament passed some kind of resolution. In the end, the girl was found by Berlin police. She was hiding for a few days. She was with her Turkish boyfriend, a boyfriend she was hiding from her parents because it was pretty clear her family would not condone the relationship. Needless to say no one ever apologized. 

In this regard, I am always shocked how immigrants so easily take the position of the country they came from. The country they left because they were allegedly treated badly for several reasons. In this case because of their heritage. It's an open secret here that the overwhelming majority of those so called Russia - Germans moved to Germany purely for economic reasons. Unfortunately back in the nineties they were all let in as a plot of the German chancellor Helmut Kohl to win elections. He knew those people are super conservative and will therefore vote for his party. Many people were under the impression that authorities were not even checking if those people really have German heritage. There was an evil joke back then that most of them probably had a German shepherd at one point, which was sufficient to prove heritage. 

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2 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

This guy still owes the City of Berlin, citizens and authorities, a big apology for his behaviour in relation to a missing teenage girl a few years ago. Making some serrious claims that Berlin authorities were not looking for the girl that was allegedly kidnapped (by immigrants?) because her family came from the former Soviet Union. And Russia considers those people still the citizens of Russia and therefore have to intervene on their behalf. What happened was that large parts of that community started demonstrating against Berlin authorities on the basis of false claims. Even the Russian parliament passed some kind of resolution. In the end, the girl was found by Berlin police. She was hiding for a few days. She was with her Turkish boyfriend, a boyfriend she was hiding from her parents because it was pretty clear her family would not condone the relationship. Needless to say no one ever apologized. 

In this regard, I am always shocked how immigrants so easily take the position of the country they came from. The country they left because they were allegedly treated badly for several reasons. In this case because of their heritage. It's an open secret here that the overwhelming majority of those so called Russia - Germans moved to Germany purely for economic reasons. Unfortunately back in the nineties they were all let in as a plot of the German chancellor Helmut Kohl to win elections. He knew those people are super conservative and will therefore vote for his party. Many people were under the impression that authorities were not even checking if those people really have German heritage. There was an evil joke back then that most of them probably had a German shepherd at one point, which was sufficient to prove heritage. 

What does all this have to do with sanctions ordered today?

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