New war in Europe, courtesy of Putin

[dollhouse]

British intelligence says Putins war plan is already in motion

Russia is reporting Ukrainian bombings and saboteurs terrorist attacking Russian mother territory

As if they would be THAT stupid

Putins lap poodle the White Russian dictator says Russans troops wont withdraw as long as theres Nato forces near their borders (Latvia and Poland?)

[Blue Skies]

Something of a different perspective, I wonder how a Romney presidency might have changed the current Russia situation.  Not that it would have been better but Obama downplayed Russia as a threat on the 2012 Presidential elections.  
 

This clip was from the crisis in 2014

Russia under Putin always seemed nasty.  I still recall Madonna standing up for Pussy Riot in 2012 

[runa]

Russia is a dictatorship disguised in democracy 

[karbatal]

Just now, runa said:

Russia is a dictatorship disguised in democracy 

Yep.

[karbatal]

What worries about this is that two psycho senile men have the buttons to nuke us all. Frankly I doubt Russian people is supporting this mess either. Anybody knows if the Russian wax face has any support? 

[karbatal]

Or the botoxed one in the White House?

[Guest CzarnaWisnia]

 

Putin recognizes independence of Russian-backed separatist regions in eastern Ukraine

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/putin-russian-security-council-eastern-ukraine-1.6359253

[Nessie]

34 minutes ago, karbatal said:

What worries about this is that two psycho senile men have the buttons to nuke us all. Frankly I doubt Russian people is supporting this mess either. Anybody knows if the Russian wax face has any support? 

In 2014 the russian people demonstrated overwhelming support for the reunification of Crimea with Russia, Putin really was at the top of his game, now cut years later i don’t know, it seems the russian people just don’t really care much about what is going on in Ukraine.

[lex92]

51 minutes ago, runa said:

Russia is a dictatorship disguised in democracy 

Yes. And dictatorship China also is a state that claims itself "democratic" in some way. I'm actually worried about the democratic system itself. We got antidemocratic tendencys world wide. 

[dollhouse]

23 minutes ago, CzarnaWisnia said:

 

Putin recognizes independence of Russian-backed separatist regions in eastern Ukraine

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/putin-russian-security-council-eastern-ukraine-1.6359253

Now he can move Russian military openly to Ukrain and start a war

Hes so predictable, are people blind?

[LSD]

 

 

[Cyber-Raga]

Alea iacta est 

[Camacho]

@Genevieve Vavance 

[Camacho]

 

[Camacho]

 

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, Junior said:

 

Yeah Cardi!

[karbatal]

The weird thing about this is that citizens in those territories are celebra the decision. Which makes you wonder what right have far away countries to decide for them.

It’s as if Japan made sanctions and meneaces to uk after brexit.

[Guest CzarnaWisnia]

3 hours ago, karbatal said:

The weird thing about this is that citizens in those territories are celebra the decision. Which makes you wonder what right have far away countries to decide for them.

It’s as if Japan made sanctions and meneaces to uk after brexit.

Most Westerners know NOTHING about Ukraine, not the first thing (let alone picking it out on a worldmap), but they have these opinions about it. They figure Ukraine is a peaceful, united country. Well it's not. There's a civil war that's been going on for years. Recognizing the sovereignty of other nations (that is, populations who democratically affirmed their self-determination) is not against international law.

[Guest CzarnaWisnia]

Btw, the Nord Stream pipeline's construction has been completed in September. It's being inspected now and will soon be ready to pump twice as much gas from Russia to Europe, while also reducing the US's influence over Europe. The US can sanction Russia all it wants (sanctions are tools of warfare) and keep raising its fists in the air, Europe needs and wants those resources (you can see the European leaders are not joining in the American conquistador rhetoric, but trying to reduce tensions). American media, being that it's just a mouthpiece for power, will frame it as a human rights issue (diversion), and angry tweeters will tweet a lot about it.

[dollhouse]

51 minutes ago, CzarnaWisnia said:

Btw, the Nord Stream pipeline's construction has been completed in September. It's being inspected now and will soon be ready to pump twice as much gas from Russia to Europe, while also reducing the US's influence over Europe. The US can sanction Russia all it wants (sanctions are tools of warfare) and keep raising its fists in the air, Europe needs and wants those resources (you can see the European leaders are not joining in the American conquistador rhetoric, but trying to reduce tensions). American media, being that it's just a mouthpiece for power, will frame it as a human rights issue (diversion), and angry tweeters will tweet a lot about it.

Nordic Stream pipeline has been put to hold because of Putins actions

[Nonoka]

28 minutes ago, CzarnaWisnia said:

Btw, the Nord Stream pipeline's construction has been completed in September. It's being inspected now and will soon be ready to pump twice as much gas from Russia to Europe, while also reducing the US's influence over Europe. The US can sanction Russia all it wants (sanctions are tools of warfare) and keep raising its fists in the air, Europe needs and wants those resources (you can see the European leaders are not joining in the American conquistador rhetoric, but trying to reduce tensions). American media, being that it's just a mouthpiece for power, will frame it as a human rights issue (diversion), and angry tweeters will tweet a lot about it.

Actually, German government just announced that NS2 has been cancelled for the time being. Which, actually, I believe is the right thing to do overall (if we set aside the economic disadvantages in the short- and mid-term). I don't disagree with you in principle, but 'Europe' is not a monolithic block and this is definitely not about US interests only.

I do believe that part of why US is involved so much in this whole Ukraine-Russia mess is certainly preventing Europe to forge closer economic ties to Russia - however, I also noticed there is a strong tendency by some people, particularly in Western Europe - to downplay the threat of Russian aggression. And being Hungarian and Romanian myself and closely following political discussions there, let me tell you this threat is very much perceived to be real in this part of Europe (which says a lot because the Hungarian government tries hard to portray friendship with Russia, and people are not buying it).

And I believe this is even more so the case in Poland or the Baltics, where the governments also actively warned German government about their fears concerning the pipeline - because it is a fact that it gives Russia economic leverage over these countries, and, once again, these countries very much do believe Russia to be a threat to their security (and no, it's not just the political elites - there are enough polls out there to show what the population thinks).

Also by the way a reason why something like an EU army / defense policies independent of NATO will, unfortunately, never work and EU will continue to remain a powerless bystander in all of this - countries like Poland or Romania do not trust security guarantees by Germany, France etc. and will much rather continue seeking direct military support by the US and the US, knowing the strategic influence it gets from this in Europe, happily offers this support. Oh well.

[Kilt]

1 hour ago, CzarnaWisnia said:

Most Westerners know NOTHING about Ukraine, not the first thing (let alone picking it out on a worldmap), but they have these opinions about it. They figure Ukraine is a peaceful, united country. Well it's not. There's a civil war that's been going on for years. Recognizing the sovereignty of other nations (that is, populations who democratically affirmed their self-determination) is not against international law.

You mean the self-determination of Donbass and Lugansk regions fueled and enabled by the Kremlin and FSB puppeteers? 

[Nonoka]

...For me now, the question is how far Putin is willing to go to see his security demands fulfilled. I highly doubt that even if Ukraine would let go of these separatist territories (and NATO accepts), that Russia would stop there and withdraw its forces. Putin seemed quite unhinged to me in his speech yesterday - talking about how the creation of independent Ukraine should have never happened (so basically denying the legitimacy of Ukrainian state) and that Ukraine could quickly build nuclear weapons to challenge Russia (which is an absolutely outlandish claim, according to pretty much any analysis I've read).

I'm sorry, but no matter how big the historic heritage Ukraine shares with Russia, his rhetoric yesterday against the country was totally unacceptable and definitely had the tone of war in it. And I don't think Putin has much right to complain how the Ukrainian government is a NATO puppet regime, illegitimate etc. - given that he just recently propped up the dictatorship in Belarus and help them beat down huge protests by society (did people here forget about that?).

And he didn't just stop at Ukraine - he explicitly talked about how allowing the former Soviet republics to break away was a 'historic mistake' (even though they did so out of free will - ask any Estonian for example what they think about their country's "membership" in the Soviet Union).

To clarify - I'm under no illusion that NATO, and within them particularly the US, are these big moral defenders of freedom and sovereignty as they like to portray themselves. But the Russian regime under Putin definitely isn't interested in letting its former partner states have an independent future either, that much he made clear yesterday. And whether Russia likes it or not, the majority of Ukrainians today (but also e.g. Georgians, Moldavians) do see their future as part of the EU and NATO (check this out or this) - they do not want to live under a Russian sphere of influence as Belarussians for example are forced to. (Oh and by the way: the claim by Putin that Russia is being 'surrounded' by NATO is highly exaggerated anyway - not even 10 percent of Russia borders on NATO countries, see here).

I don't know where this is going to end, but again, speaking as a Hungarian-Romanian, I am quite happy atm that both countries are inside NATO and EU and with that, somewhat safe and sound from an economic and security perspective...I don't see this conflict de-escalating anytime soon.

 

[Nessie]

46 minutes ago, dollhouse said:

Nordic Stream pipeline has been put to hold because of Putins actions

Yes, they did suspend as expected, but I believe that Germany is doing this just for the sake of doing something amist this events, but in the long run Germany will eventually lift this suspension and the Nord Stream 2 will operate as planned. This gas pipeline was a huge investment on their part and for now they must get in line with the sanctions bandwagon from the west, but make no mistake Germany has made clear that it has its own interests and are not exactly in the same page with the US and UK.

[runa]

Thanks for your input @Nonoka, so interesting to read. Stay safe my friend.

[Nessie]

19 minutes ago, Nonoka said:

...For me now, the question is how far Putin is willing to go to see his security demands fulfilled. I highly doubt that even if Ukraine would let go of these separatist territories (and NATO accepts), that Russia would stop there and withdraw its forces. Putin seemed quite unhinged to me in his speech yesterday - talking about how the creation of independent Ukraine should have never happened (so basically denying the legitimacy of Ukrainian state) and that Ukraine could quickly build nuclear weapons to challenge Russia (which is an absolutely outlandish claim, according to pretty much any analysis I've read).

I'm sorry, but no matter how big the historic heritage Ukraine shares with Russia, his rhetoric yesterday against the country was totally unacceptable and definitely had the tone of war in it. And I don't think Putin has much right to complain how the Ukrainian government is a NATO puppet regime, illegitimate etc. - given that he just recently propped up the dictatorship in Belarus and help them beat down huge protests by society (did people here forget about that?).

And he didn't just stop at Ukraine - he explicitly talked about how allowing the former Soviet republics to break away was a 'historic mistake' (even though they did so out of free will - ask any Estonian for example what they think about their country's "membership" in the Soviet Union).

To clarify - I'm under no illusion that NATO, and within them particularly the US, are these big moral defenders of freedom and sovereignty as they like to portray themselves. But the Russian regime under Putin definitely isn't interested in letting its former partner states have an independent future either, that much he made clear yesterday. And whether Russia likes it or not, the majority of Ukrainians today (but also e.g. Georgians, Moldavians) do see their future as part of the EU and NATO (check this out or this) - they do not want to live under a Russian sphere of influence as Belarussians for example are forced to.

I don't know where this is going to end, but again, speaking as a Hungarian-Romanian, I am quite happy atm that both countries are inside NATO and EU and with that, somewhat safe and sound from an economic and security perspective...I don't see this conflict ending anytime soon.

 

What the west fails to understand is that Ukraine is not a unified country, millions of people in the east of Ukraine do not want to be part of this Ukraine alliance with EU and NATO, those people speak russian as their mother language and are effectivelly cut out from Ukraine since 2014 when they did not accept the coup imposed on them during the Maidan protests, if they were happy with it they would never have declared those republics independence and fight for its defense during the Ukraine attempts to retake military control of those areas. They rather die than be in this country where they are seen as subcitizens. It is no wonder why they were celebrating yesterday.

[Raider of the lost Ark]

25 minutes ago, Nessie said:

Yes, they did suspend as expected, but I believe that Germany is doing this just for the sake of doing something amist this events, but in the long run Germany will eventually lift this suspension and the Nord Stream 2 will operate as planned. This gas pipeline was a huge investment on their part and for now they must get in line with the sanctions bandwagon from the west, but make no mistake Germany has made clear that it has its own interests and are not exactly in the same page with the US and UK.

Germany did not pay anything. Nord Stream 2 is solely financed by Russia. 

[Nessie]

1 minute ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

Germany did not pay anything. Nord Stream 2 is solely financed by Russia. 

https://amp.dw.com/en/nord-stream-2-the-gas-pipelines-second-power-struggle/a-60613442

“The pipeline belongs to the Russian state-owned company Gazprom and was built with the backing of five European energy firms.

They are: Austria's OMV, Britain's Shell, France's Engie, Germany's Uniper and the Wintershall unit of BASF.

The five companies put up around half of the initial investment.”

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, Nonoka said:

Actually, German government just announced that NS2 has been cancelled for the time being. Which, actually, I believe is the right thing to do overall (if we set aside the economic disadvantages in the short- and mid-term). I don't disagree with you in principle, but 'Europe' is not a monolithic block and this is definitely not about US interests only.

I do believe that part of why US is involved so much in this whole Ukraine-Russia mess is certainly preventing Europe to forge closer economic ties to Russia - however, I also noticed there is a strong tendency by some people, particularly in Western Europe - to downplay the threat of Russian aggression. And being Hungarian and Romanian myself and closely following political discussions there, let me tell you this threat is very much perceived to be real in this part of Europe (which says a lot because the Hungarian government tries hard to portray friendship with Russia, and people are not buying it).

And I believe this is even more so the case in Poland or the Baltics, where the governments also actively warned German government about their fears concerning the pipeline - because it is a fact that it gives Russia economic leverage over these countries, and, once again, these countries very much do believe Russia to be a threat to their security (and no, it's not just the political elites - there are enough polls out there to show what the population thinks).

Also by the way a reason why something like an EU army / defense policies independent of NATO will, unfortunately, never work and EU will continue to remain a powerless bystander in all of this - countries like Poland or Romania do not trust security guarantees by Germany, France etc. and will much rather continue seeking direct military support by the US and the US, knowing the strategic influence it gets from this in Europe, happily offers this support. Oh well.

This is a very interesting post. I thank you for this. Being in the far west of Europe means something far different to east Europe. 
 

I would add though that part of the problem with East Europe is the URSS or Communism nostalgia nowadays because of the dire situation in some countries and the disappointment with EU. Maybe if the EU did more and those countries had less difficulties they would clearly belong 100% to the EU instead of falling into Putin’s tricks. But of course the high homophobia, racism and misogyny in some of those countries doesn’t help. Some part of the population feel closer to Russian ideas than the West ideas.

[dollhouse]

Putin and Lavrov are wiping their asses with these Western sanctions, as expected

Only way to stop them is to put hard on hard with force