Tales from Spain. Socialists win elections but far right extremists arrive

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, Martin B. said:

I know but If a far-right party comes into power in a country, believe me that it will not be anymore on my travel itinerary. It is a matter of principle and value. Well, I do not think it will be for tomorrow in your country, but the rise of the party in the 3rd rank excludes nothing for the future.

They're not coming into power. They only amount to 15% of the votes. It's like thinking that Germany will be nazi in the future because of the rise of AFD. 

You can plan further trips. Spain is still one of the most tolerant countries in the world. 

[runa]

I think the most frightening thing is the rise of far-right party in many country around the world, all of this because the poor middle-aged white male feels threatened. That's very scary. 

[Nonoka]

2 hours ago, runa said:

I think the most frightening thing is the rise of far-right party in many country around the world, all of this because the poor middle-aged white male feels threatened. That's very scary. 

At this point this is actually more of a myth though. I don't post too often in the political section, but it really should be pointed out that the problem of far-right populism has, as unfortunate as it is, become much much more complex than this.

As an example, in Germany the far-right AfD became the second-strongest party in a couple of regional elections this year, but what really rocked the boat was when statistics came out showing who voted whom. Because, unlike what is often claimed, there were big amounts of supporters from pretty much any economic status, age and gender - women, people with high-income jobs, even parts of the migrant community. In addition, the far-right was the most popular party among young people below 30.

It's a similar demographic with the Front National voters in France, and the Bolsonaro supporters last year IIRC. Can not speak for Spain or other countries outside of Europe that face this situation, but those results do indicate that populism is spreading far beyond its original target demography (which was the poor, middle-aged white male). As long as the rest of society and political parties don't recognize this, there will be no effective 'fighting' against this trend.

[Jazzy Jan]

8 hours ago, Nonoka said:

At this point this is actually more of a myth though. I don't post too often in the political section, but it really should be pointed out that the problem of far-right populism has, as unfortunate as it is, become much much more complex than this.

As an example, in Germany the far-right AfD became the second-strongest party in a couple of regional elections this year, but what really rocked the boat was when statistics came out showing who voted whom. Because, unlike what is often claimed, there were big amounts of supporters from pretty much any economic status, age and gender - women, people with high-income jobs, even parts of the migrant community. In addition, the far-right was the most popular party among young people below 30.

It's a similar demographic with the Front National voters in France, and the Bolsonaro supporters last year IIRC. Can not speak for Spain or other countries outside of Europe that face this situation, but those results do indicate that populism is spreading far beyond its original target demography (which was the poor, middle-aged white male). As long as the rest of society and political parties don't recognize this, there will be no effective 'fighting' against this trend.

Sadly true. I am shocked after the amount of people I know who like Trump. People who I never dreamed would like such a racist, sexist, heartless, compulsive liar. Often very arrogant, horrible men seem to be admired for being obnoxious and heartless as leaders when they are openly racist. I also know that the exact same people who like Trump, would hate him if he was their boss, colleague or neighbour.  They would find him unbearable as a person and deplore his actions and words.  I just don't understand people at times.  So many just follow what the Murdoch press print too that encourages the far right agenda. It does not benefit the working, poor and middle classes but somehow they just go along with it or totally accept it.  See it happening in Australia at the moment. We are not learning from history. 

 

[Martin B.]

Yes, populism has unfortunately moved from angry white men to a frank broad of the population. They are not so many, but unfortunately people are going less and less to vote leaving room for fans of these populist movements that are going to the polls. And this is the risk that all Western countries have to expect for the coming years: far-right parties will eventually come to power because of the defection of the electorate of the other parties and because of the splitting of the moderate vote among several parties.

[karbatal]

Behind a far right voter there's a selfish person with zero empathy. They can be young, old, women, men.... They want others to be screwed so they live a bit better and they feel they have the right to do so: because they're born in the country or they have a certain religion or whatever. 

[karbatal]

The only solution is to stop validating them. In every country they have raised because media accepted their discourse as part of the "freedom of speech" and put it on the same level as others. Media is a very big part responsible of this. 

[Martin B.]

35 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Behind a far right voter there's a selfish person with zero empathy. They can be young, old, women, men.... They want others to be screwed so they live a bit better and they feel they have the right to do so: because they're born in the country or they have a certain religion or whatever. 

This.

[Jazzy Jan]

2 hours ago, karbatal said:

Behind a far right voter there's a selfish person with zero empathy. They can be young, old, women, men.... They want others to be screwed so they live a bit better and they feel they have the right to do so: because they're born in the country or they have a certain religion or whatever. 

 

2 hours ago, karbatal said:

The only solution is to stop validating them. In every country they have raised because media accepted their discourse as part of the "freedom of speech" and put it on the same level as others. Media is a very big part responsible of this. 

So true. Far right views are becoming "normalized"  so to speak.  The amount of far right columnists in the newspapers and on "news"  shows such as Fox news and now Sky news in Australia is shocking.  There is also a new war on people thinking that basic human rights are wrong and for leftists.  Am seeing so many far right politicians come to power in Australia now and it is terrifying.  Even our revolting PM used the phrase " unfunded empathy"  and so many in this government goes along with it.  It is the same with people giving shock jocks and flat earthers coverage and saying they have freedom of speech.  When people defend Nazis and holocaust deniers by saying they should have free speech,  it is very frightening. 

[VogueMusic]

13 hours ago, karbatal said:

Behind a far right voter there's a selfish person with zero empathy. They can be young, old, women, men.... They want others to be screwed so they live a bit better and they feel they have the right to do so: because they're born in the country or they have a certain religion or whatever. 

 

13 hours ago, karbatal said:

The only solution is to stop validating them. In every country they have raised because media accepted their discourse as part of the "freedom of speech" and put it on the same level as others. Media is a very big part responsible of this. 

 

THIS!

You nailed it.

Here in the US, I couldn't believe how the media was handling Trump, his base, and coverage of them during the 2016 election. It was like they were setting the stage for them, deliberately. And I don't mean typical right-wing propaganda machines like Fox News...no, the "liberal" media outlets were playing right into their hands from day one...passing it all off as if it just was normal "freedom of speech", or not even taking it seriously.

Another group that I've become highly skeptical of - these new pundits, writers, academics, etc. making a name for themselves in the 'Free-Speech-at-all-costs/Anti-PC movement' that has given rise to a lot of new "personalities" making big money on the punditry/lecture circuit that always find a very sly way to be far too sympathetic and cozy with right-wing perspectives, and making out anything from the left/liberalism, sometimes even centrism - that some of them even claim to 'supposedly' be - as being the big societal boogie man.

[karbatal]

Here in Spain the rise of the far right turds have been fueled by the separatist tensions. Very VERY FEW demonstrations defending the unity of Spain have been supported by regular citizens. Most of them (small ones) were called by supporters of Franco. But media didn't point out how those people were extremists but simply described them as "constitution defenders". WTF? Our Constitution was approved AFTER Franco died! 

It's a shame the absolute image-washing they're having. 

And have you guys noticed how it all goes back to the same idea? Make America Great Again. Go back to old flowery Great Britain or the traditional France.Let's bring back the uncomplicated and healthy Spain of the 60s.

I have this personal theory. Maybe I'm wrong, mind. They're  looking back with nostalgia to a moment in the past when things seemed better (for those who feel that have the right to be better than the rest). 

This already happened during the XIX century, in the Romanticism era, when precisely nationalism was so strong that countries like Italy and Germany finally united. And that romantic nationalism still affects us. Bismarck unified Germany in 1871 and Italy ended the unification the very same year. All crafted romantic views on what is our country was established during those years and many nostalgic citizens believe those idealistic tales. Hitler and Mussolini had those ideal landscapes from the XIX century as blueprint.

[Martin B.]

Unbridled capitalism has destroyed Western economies where the lack of redistribution of money and resources, the decentralization of large sector of the economy and the unsolved economic crisis of 2008 that showed governments would do nothing to curb banks and finance. When people no longer believe in their institution and see their purchasing power diminish every year, they search to blame someone and populists always offer immigrants as culprits who are easy prey. History has been repeating itself for centuries. Sad.

[Guest]

it´s great to come here and see so many ideas that I agree with!!!

 

"And have you guys noticed how it all goes back to the same idea? Make America Great Again. Go back to old flowery Great Britain or the traditional France.Let's bring back the uncomplicated and healthy Spain of the 60s. " This.and of course, life wasn´t that uncomplicated in the 60s in spain, it was a dictatorship! but the media, the money, the banks,the industries...everything was controlled by them, and that´s what the extreme right wants!

anyways, to me is clear that is a worlwide movement, is less "Martinez el facha" or "torrente" (classic spanish fascist  joke characters") and more about Trump, Brexit, let´s make everything private and sell the public healthcare, education system, train system... and use the flag (any) as the excuse

[Guest]

the only positive thing that I see is that the extreme people are leaving the PP to go to vox, and that means that maybe PP is going to start becoming a better political party after this. The spokerman of the PP in the basque country has said that they will never work together with vox because they are anti constitution...it´s a start

[karbatal]

8 hours ago, promise to try said:

the only positive thing that I see is that the extreme people are leaving the PP to go to vox, and that means that maybe PP is going to start becoming a better political party after this. The spokerman of the PP in the basque country has said that they will never work together with vox because they are anti constitution...it´s a start

Well, I have a feeling that they had some plan that has backfired. They wanted all extremists to vote Vox, all conservative to vote PP and all centre oriented to vote Ciudadanos and portrait Socialists as this useless party who creates a chaos. PP and Ciudadanos would form a big coalition with the support of Vox.

All went wrong. In the end Socialists voters are stable, more people than expected still vote Podemos and a fragmented right wing has left them more and more weak. I think they didn't expect the Ciudadanos debacle: I think they expected Socialists voters to vote Ciudadanos instead! And the fragmentation led to a loss of seats in the Congress chamber because of the    electoral system. 

Of course that's my theory, I may be completely wrong.

For decades the right was always united but the left fragmented. All extremists were voting PP. Now the right has that problem. PP has to gather all conservative AND extremist vote again. That's extremely difficult.

[promise to try]

Ok, my doubt is not really connected with the title of the topic but...what do you think is going to happen this winter with the energy? I don´t know about the rest of the places/countries/continents, but the spaniard  government is talking about a super difficult winter, with the prices of everything rising even more. Same with macron in France...

[karbatal]

4 hours ago, promise to try said:

Ok, my doubt is not really connected with the title of the topic but...what do you think is going to happen this winter with the energy? I don´t know about the rest of the places/countries/continents, but the spaniard  government is talking about a super difficult winter, with the prices of everything rising even more. Same with macron in France...

If we get our gas from North Africa and we have such incredibly high percentage of renewal energy I think it’s all about the avarice and speculation from third countries selling energy at high prices. Nothing makes much sense except that hard core capitalism is out of control. 

[Kim]

On 8/28/2022 at 10:36 AM, promise to try said:

Ok, my doubt is not really connected with the title of the topic but...what do you think is going to happen this winter with the energy? I don´t know about the rest of the places/countries/continents, but the spaniard  government is talking about a super difficult winter, with the prices of everything rising even more. Same with macron in France...

I was wondering why no one seemed to be mentioning this. The UK is on the edge of a cost of living disaster because of it...

[karbatal]

1 minute ago, Kim said:

I was wondering why no one seemed to be mentioning this. The UK is on the edge of a cost of living disaster because of it...

The EU has announced an emergency intervention and will translate the Spain/ Portugal new model that changes the corrupted algorithm that primes the most expensive energy to calculate the total value. Funny thing is that the UK could do that whenever they want because has complete sovereignty over the energy market after brexit! 

[Kim]

8 minutes ago, karbatal said:

The EU has announced an emergency intervention and will translate the Spain/ Portugal new model that changes the corrupted algorithm that primes the most expensive energy to calculate the total value. Funny thing is that the UK could do that whenever they want because has complete sovereignty over the energy market after brexit! 

You're making the mistake of thinking that a Tory govt is there to serve the people rather than make their rich mates richer.

One wonders if this'll finally make ppl put down their cups of tea and start fucking RIOTING IN THE STREETS when their bills start coming in...

[elijah]

On 8/28/2022 at 4:48 PM, karbatal said:

If we get our gas from North Africa and we have such incredibly high percentage of renewal energy I think it’s all about the avarice and speculation from third countries selling energy at high prices. Nothing makes much sense except that hard core capitalism is out of control. 

Dear, I am watching this doco:

 

I always knew about Franco, but never really saw such an indepth doco about him. I am amazed that Spain was a full fleged dictatorship until 1975 (and Portugal and Greece until 1973). I m shocked that he managed to rule for so many years in the very heart of Europe unbothered, killing hundred thousands after being a Hitler and Musolini friend! I didnt know they directly help him and he directly helped them back in WW2...

[karbatal]

16 hours ago, elijah said:

Dear, I am watching this doco:

 

I always knew about Franco, but never really saw such an indepth doco about him. I am amazed that Spain was a full fleged dictatorship until 1975 (and Portugal and Greece until 1973). I m shocked that he managed to rule for so many years in the very heart of Europe unbothered, killing hundred thousands after being a Hitler and Musolini friend! I didnt know they directly help him and he directly helped them back in WW2...

The aim if the western block was to stop communism. After WWII you could do whatever and be accepted as long as you stopped communism. 

Spain, Portugal and Greece were lucky compared to the incredible tragedy that was and still is Latin America. And even the USA citizens, especially minorities, who suffered the crack drug epidemic because of the obsessive fight against communism in Nicaragua. 

[promise to try]

17 hours ago, elijah said:

Dear, I am watching this doco:

 

I always knew about Franco, but never really saw such an indepth doco about him. I am amazed that Spain was a full fleged dictatorship until 1975 (and Portugal and Greece until 1973). I m shocked that he managed to rule for so many years in the very heart of Europe unbothered, killing hundred thousands after being a Hitler and Musolini friend! I didnt know they directly help him and he directly helped them back in WW2...

the USA didn´t care about the dictatorships and fascism as long as they stopped comunism.Yes, spain was a dictatorship when franco died in 1975, and then they decided to change some things to make the system more similar to the ones in Europe.But nobody paid for anything. 

[sotos8]

Swedish right prepares for power as PM accepts election defeat

Swedish election: The astonishing rise of the right-wing Sweden Democrats

[elijah]

1 minute ago, sotos8 said:

Swedish right prepares for power as PM accepts election defeat

Swedish election: The astonishing rise of the right-wing Sweden Democrats

WHAT THE HELL????

[promise to try]

what?

[Jazzy Jan]

2 hours ago, sotos8 said:

Swedish right prepares for power as PM accepts election defeat

Swedish election: The astonishing rise of the right-wing Sweden Democrats

Very frightening.  

[sotos8]

During the election, the main issues for voters appeared to have been health care, immigration and integration, the energy crisis that has been prompted in large part by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and law and order — in particular, the increasing prevalence of gun crime in a country normally known for high living standards.

[karbatal]

Let’s see how that extremist party rules. They are always very vocal in the opposition but a complete mess in government. Anyway after the incredible lack of respect for the lives of elderly people in Sweden during Covid and the lack of interest by the society I don’t expect less to be quite honest

[sotos8]

I think that the problem is panEuropean , i don't know a single person here that is happy with what illegal immigration has caused , are we all far right voters ? of course not 

But for example the center of Athens is a ghetto you can't even take a walk anymore,  people have had enough