Tales from Spain. Socialists win elections but far right extremists arrive

[karbatal]

3 minutes ago, sotos8 said:

I think that the problem is panEuropean , i don't know a single person here that is happy with what illegal immigration has caused , are we all far right voters ? of course not 

But for example the center of Athens is a ghetto you can't even take a walk anymore,  people have had enough

I think people are pouring their frustrations on immigration but for example Spain is at THE LOWEST level of delinquency in all history but reading media you would think people are being mugged all the time. It would be interesting to compare Greece felonies nowadays with 20 or 30 years ago. 

[sotos8]

I think you're right but a country of 10mil cannot have 5 million immigrants most of them illegal that do not have a chance not the will to be integrated .People in the centre are selling their houses in humiliating prices because they are afraid ( especially the elderly) .You think  you're living in a different country .That's not normal imo

[karbatal]

26 minutes ago, sotos8 said:

I think you're right but a country of 10mil cannot have 5 million immigrants most of them illegal that do not have a chance not the will to be integrated .People in the centre are selling their houses in humiliating prices because they are afraid ( especially the elderly) .You think  you're living in a different country .That's not normal imo

Really? Statistics show 10% immigration in Greece. Spain has 12%. According to this Greece has one million immigrants.
 

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GRC/greece/immigration-statistics

[karbatal]

And by the way irregular migrants are easily regulated. Spain has had enormous processes of regularízation. 

[karbatal]

According to statistics crimes have not increased in Sweden either. So that party used big fat lies to win

Crime in Sweden is defined by the Swedish Penal Code (Swedish: Brottsbalken) and in other Swedish laws and statutory instruments.^[2][3]

Number of reported crimes per 100 thousand inhabitants in Sweden, 1975-2018^{[1][non-primary source needed]}

Over the past decades, the number of reported crimes in Sweden has increased slightly. This fact is due to several different factors such as a significant increase in the Swedish population, which naturally results in more crime and convicted criminals, as well as people in general being more likely to report crimes in general to the authorities. Over the last 10 years the number of crimes per 100,000 inhabitant remained relatively stable.^[4]

[runa]

I think poverty leads to criminality, not immigrants. Give them the chance to work and to integrate your society and you'll see what will happen. 
Now we accept immigrants, we park them in neighboroods, in complete poverty and we're wondering why there's criminality.

 

[karbatal]

11 minutes ago, runa said:

I think poverty leads to criminality, not immigrants. Give them the chance to work and to integrate your society and you'll see what will happen. 
Now we accept immigrants, we park them in neighboroods, in complete poverty and we're wondering why there's criminality.

 

I agree totally with you. But there has always been in recent history a twisted and cynical (and dangerous) tendency to criminalize the victims. It happened in USA with the black population after the slavery ended and it’s happening now with immigrants. When I was a student in Madrid in the mid 90s migrants were battered by neo nazis. Now the tale is that they batter people to rob them.

[sotos8]

38 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Really? Statistics show 10% immigration in Greece. Spain has 12%. According to this Greece has one million immigrants.
 

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GRC/greece/immigration-statistics

yes i saw that but if they use for example the number of Pakistan people living in Greece from 2011 you can see that the statistics are not always saying the whole truth

of course now my estimation of 5 mil is exaggerated 

[elijah]

18 hours ago, sotos8 said:

I think that the problem is panEuropean , i don't know a single person here that is happy with what illegal immigration has caused , are we all far right voters ? of course not 

But for example the center of Athens is a ghetto you can't even take a walk anymore,  people have had enough

Please, dont exaggerate. Athens was and is still an amazing city (one of my favourite in Europe actually). But you are not wrong that Greece and Italy especially have suffered alot due to the migration. The actions of Erdogan do not help 2.

[horn]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:57 AM, karbatal said:

According to statistics crimes have not increased in Sweden either. So that party used big fat lies to win

Crime in Sweden is defined by the Swedish Penal Code (Swedish: Brottsbalken) and in other Swedish laws and statutory instruments.^[2][3]

Number of reported crimes per 100 thousand inhabitants in Sweden, 1975-2018^{[1][non-primary source needed]}

Over the past decades, the number of reported crimes in Sweden has increased slightly. This fact is due to several different factors such as a significant increase in the Swedish population, which naturally results in more crime and convicted criminals, as well as people in general being more likely to report crimes in general to the authorities. Over the last 10 years the number of crimes per 100,000 inhabitant remained relatively stable.^[4]

Till 2018? Wasn't that when the ex-ruling party just started(2018-2022)?

 

Also:

Sweden is the only European country where fatal shootings have risen significantly since 2000, leaping from one of the lowest rates of gun violence on the continent to one of the highest in less than a decade, a report has found.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/26/fatal-shootings-have-risen-in-sweden-despite-fall-across-europe-report-finds

 

In 2021, Sweden was found to have the 2nd highest gun homicide rate (after Croatia) out of 22 European countries surveyed. Most other countries surveyed had instead experienced a decline in gun homicides.^[2][15]

https://bra.se/om-bra/nytt-fran-bra/arkiv/press/2021-05-26-dodligt-skjutvapenvald-har-okat-i-sverige-men-inte-i-ovriga-europa.html

 

I guess the Swedish are worried Sweden may end up like USA.

[karbatal]

23 hours ago, horn said:

Till 2018? Wasn't that when the ex-ruling party just started(2018-2022)?

 

Also:

Sweden is the only European country where fatal shootings have risen significantly since 2000, leaping from one of the lowest rates of gun violence on the continent to one of the highest in less than a decade, a report has found.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/26/fatal-shootings-have-risen-in-sweden-despite-fall-across-europe-report-finds

 

In 2021, Sweden was found to have the 2nd highest gun homicide rate (after Croatia) out of 22 European countries surveyed. Most other countries surveyed had instead experienced a decline in gun homicides.^[2][15]

https://bra.se/om-bra/nytt-fran-bra/arkiv/press/2021-05-26-dodligt-skjutvapenvald-har-okat-i-sverige-men-inte-i-ovriga-europa.html

 

I guess the Swedish are worried Sweden may end up like USA.

Sure  

[horn]

9 hours ago, karbatal said:

Sure  

Can you elaborate why you use 2018 data instead of 2021?

[karbatal]

2 hours ago, horn said:

Can you elaborate why you use 2018 data instead of 2021?

I searched that and that appeared. You can post more recent if you find . I doubt the pandemic years were chaos in terms of delinquency. 
 

[sotos8]

and here we are wondering why the far right is huge all over Europe

Von der Leyen’s warning message to Italy irks election candidates

 

Italian politicians asked European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen not to intervene in domestic politics after she warned that Europe has “the tools” to deal with Italy if things go in a “difficult direction.”

During a conference on Thursday at Princeton University, an attendant pointed out to von der Leyen that “figures close to Putin” were among candidates for the upcoming legislative election on Sunday. “We’ll see,” she replied. “If things go in a difficult direction — and I’ve spoken about Hungary and Poland — we have the tools.”

This is a clear reference to the ability of the European Commission to cut funds allocated to member countries when they are deemed to be violating the rule of law. Last week, the Commission proposed to cut €7.5 billion of funds allocated to Hungary.

Von der Leyen’s remark came just a day before Italy’s campaign goes quiet for the weekend, and has provoked the ire of multiple candidates during their final stretch

“What is this, a threat? This is shameful arrogance,” tweeted Matteo Salvini, the leader of Italy’s far-right League party. He asked von der Leyen to “respect the free, democratic and sovereign vote of the Italian people.”

He also said on Italian TV that “if anyone in Brussels thinks of cutting the funds that belong to Italy, because the League wins the elections, then we have to rethink this Europe,” adding that “this is institutional bullying.”

[karbatal]

43 minutes ago, sotos8 said:

and here we are wondering why the far right is huge all over Europe

Von der Leyen’s warning message to Italy irks election candidates

 

Italian politicians asked European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen not to intervene in domestic politics after she warned that Europe has “the tools” to deal with Italy if things go in a “difficult direction.”

During a conference on Thursday at Princeton University, an attendant pointed out to von der Leyen that “figures close to Putin” were among candidates for the upcoming legislative election on Sunday. “We’ll see,” she replied. “If things go in a difficult direction — and I’ve spoken about Hungary and Poland — we have the tools.”

This is a clear reference to the ability of the European Commission to cut funds allocated to member countries when they are deemed to be violating the rule of law. Last week, the Commission proposed to cut €7.5 billion of funds allocated to Hungary.

Von der Leyen’s remark came just a day before Italy’s campaign goes quiet for the weekend, and has provoked the ire of multiple candidates during their final stretch

“What is this, a threat? This is shameful arrogance,” tweeted Matteo Salvini, the leader of Italy’s far-right League party. He asked von der Leyen to “respect the free, democratic and sovereign vote of the Italian people.”

He also said on Italian TV that “if anyone in Brussels thinks of cutting the funds that belong to Italy, because the League wins the elections, then we have to rethink this Europe,” adding that “this is institutional bullying.”

Aren’t you happy that the EU takes a stance against extreme right? Because according to your last posts you seem very understanding about the rise  of the extreme right. Every institution should be concerned about this, especially when there’s a mechanism called the Rule of Law that is already in action because of Poland and Hungary extremism regarding, among other things, to their attitude against gays. 

[sotos8]

I'm not at all  happy when the EU  commission President is trying to intervene to a country's election and threatening voters 

[karbatal]

15 hours ago, sotos8 said:

I'm not at all  happy when the EU  commission President is trying to intervene to a country's election and threatening voters 

I guessed so. But you forget that the politics in a EU member affects the whole block. Anyway Meloni is against the “burocrats of Brussels too” so now you have two things in common with her. She despises you though because she hates gays.

[sotos8]

what's the first thing?

[promise to try]

The only thing that I have seen from her, so far, is that she is Italian, Christian, and a mother. With these three points, she can do anything and wouldn´t surprise me. 

[karbatal]

4 hours ago, sotos8 said:

what's the first thing?

You “understanding” that immigration brings so many problems. While in fact immigration is the biggest opportunity for a country when it’s properly attended. Blaming migrants instead of useless governments. 

[karbatal]

4 hours ago, promise to try said:

The only thing that I have seen from her, so far, is that she is Italian, Christian, and a mother. With these three points, she can do anything and wouldn´t surprise me. 

Melloni did a meeting in Spain together with Vox in Andalucía and she was spitting venom against gays, transgender and immigrants while all fascists cheered.

[karbatal]

I found this video very interesting. It’s about who is taking the influential position that the UK left inside the EU. And Spain has significantly led important areas which has become strategic. And all because of our lack of euroeskeptiscs

 

[elijah]

9 hours ago, karbatal said:

I found this video very interesting. It’s about who is taking the influential position that the UK left inside the EU. And Spain has significantly led important areas which has become strategic. And all because of our lack of euroeskeptiscs

 

Spain deserves to play that part. Spain is one mini EU that has functioned for centuries.

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, elijah said:

Spain deserves to play that part. Spain is one mini EU that has functioned for centuries.

Oh I hope our inner tensions do not ever happen in the EU. We’ve got 3 civil wars and one terrorist separatist group

[promise to try]

1 hour ago, karbatal said:

Oh I hope our inner tensions do not ever happen in the EU. We’ve got 3 civil wars and one terrorist separatist group

a few separatists groups, a few government related terrotist groups too... a fiesta

[karbatal]

Just now, promise to try said:

a few separatists groups, a few government related terrotist groups too... a fiesta

Our XIX and XX century were such a mess. No wonder we have one of the worst conservative parties. They were born in Inquisition Castilla and have barely evolved.

[elijah]

10 hours ago, karbatal said:

Oh I hope our inner tensions do not ever happen in the EU. We’ve got 3 civil wars and one terrorist separatist group

In the end Spain turned out great. I m still shocked Spain was full fledged dictatorship in the 70ties, but the end result is what matters. You managed to deal with separatists, have a nice economy and most of the world have to envy you for the medical sector. Spain should definitely join the Franco-german engine and lead the way! Not to mention how UNDERRATED Madrid is! Its one of the best cities I ve ever visited!

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, elijah said:

In the end Spain turned out great. I m still shocked Spain was full fledged dictatorship in the 70ties, but the end result is what matters. You managed to deal with separatists, have a nice economy and most of the world have to envy you for the medical sector. Spain should definitely join the Franco-german engine and lead the way! Not to mention how UNDERRATED Madrid is! Its one of the best cities I ve ever visited!

Franco dictatorship was different regarding decades. The misery and isolation in the 40s, the first USA military bases brought money in the 50s and then the 60s brought an incredible economic development because we were still very behind in industrialization, so many foreign groups invested.

In the 60s Franco government did something really good: it opened the country for tourism with a law (still in course) that all restaurants have an affordable menu with bread and drink and all bars and cafe have a toilet. That and the fact that our beaches are not allowed to be used by private companies make our coasts simply the best: all beaches are big and free, local administration cleans them every night and restaurants and bars are affordable. European workers from UK, Germany and France could afford holidays in Spain and that made our tourist industry one of the best in the world. That and the water policy are in my opinion the only two good things of the dictatorship.

The rest was hell for minorities. Gypsies didn’t have national documentation, gays could be arrested and beaten with a law against “lazy people” and nationalities were repressed and their languages not recognized. That is why conservative people in Spain nowadays hate Catalan or Basque people. 
 

 

[promise to try]

1 hour ago, elijah said:

In the end Spain turned out great. I m still shocked Spain was full fledged dictatorship in the 70ties, but the end result is what matters. You managed to deal with separatists, have a nice economy and most of the world have to envy you for the medical sector. Spain should definitely join the Franco-german engine and lead the way! Not to mention how UNDERRATED Madrid is! Its one of the best cities I ve ever visited!

Madrid is a great city to visit, I don´t know why is not as famous as others.

and about everything turning out ok after franco´s  40 years dictatorship...it could have been worse, of course, but the situation is not as positive as you say in your post. The economy is based in turism-good weather, the unemployed in young people is scandalous, the public  medical sector is suffering a lot because the right winged political parties are helping the private ´s more, same with the schools.the monarchy is only loved for the right winged too, and even tough it doesn´t appear on the news, there are a lot of people both in catalonia and basque country that are not happy being in spain...and again, it could have been way worse after franco, that´s for sure.

one of the saddest thing is that new new system was built starting with franco´s system, so most of the people that fought against him, the old government etc., were forgotten.

[elijah]

11 hours ago, karbatal said:

Franco dictatorship was different regarding decades. The misery and isolation in the 40s, the first USA military bases brought money in the 50s and then the 60s brought an incredible economic development because we were still very behind in industrialization, so many foreign groups invested.

In the 60s Franco government did something really good: it opened the country for tourism with a law (still in course) that all restaurants have an affordable menu with bread and drink and all bars and cafe have a toilet. That and the fact that our beaches are not allowed to be used by private companies make our coasts simply the best: all beaches are big and free, local administration cleans them every night and restaurants and bars are affordable. European workers from UK, Germany and France could afford holidays in Spain and that made our tourist industry one of the best in the world. That and the water policy are in my opinion the only two good things of the dictatorship.

The rest was hell for minorities. Gypsies didn’t have national documentation, gays could be arrested and beaten with a law against “lazy people” and nationalities were repressed and their languages not recognized. That is why conservative people in Spain nowadays hate Catalan or Basque people. 
 

 

Its kind of shocking that a friend of Hitler managed to rule one of the biggest and most important European states until (practically) recently. In a way Spain lucked out (looking from outside perspective of course), because USA wanted to use any regime against the Communist Block, including a "Catholic" facist one like Francos and created USA bases in Spain in the 60ties. It seems like Spain gained a lot of ground in the period 1960-2008 (the Spanish themselves managed to use the EU funds wisely and transformed Spain). The 2009 crisis hit all of Europe, Southern most I guess, but still nowadays Spain is doing fine (when compared to other parts of Europe and the world of course). I understand there are many problems, but comparatively Spain deserves to play a bigger role in EU (together with Germany and France) than say Italy and the last elections in Italy just prove very well why. I think the fact that Spain turned out to be a progressive country with liberal social norms (maybe due to the Francos dark regime?) makes it the perfect "third" pillar of the EU - in this way states like NL and the Scandinavian states could identify with it, but it also represent Southern (Mediteranean) Europe and in a way its what Southern Europe must turn into, if we want more just society. Of course I know there are problems, but there are also positives we have to admire. As a whole, I view Spain very positively and I think it must be pushed to play a bigger role within EU.