Israel and Hamas war

[promise to try]

9 hours ago, elijah said:

It’s the view of a Spanish citizen tucked nicely in the West and NATO embrace since the 70ties. …

yes. But just as info, there was a referendum in 1986 to see if spain had to join the NATO, because it wasn´t something "popular" to say that you were in favour of the NATO,and three parts were clearly against it: the basque country, catalunya, and canary island (this third one is really surprising for me).Of course,the rest were in favour of it, so we are in

9 hours ago, elijah said:

It’s the view of a Spanish citizen tucked nicely in the West and NATO embrace since the 70ties. Now imagine being Georgian or Ukrainian or Moldovan who were on the brink of joining NATO and now get zero arm forces in case of RU invasion. I think bordering RU could change one’s perspective. Ask FIN or SWE. Anyways I think it’s logical at the time neither RU nor NATO seeked any arrangement regarding enlargement. At the time neither view each other as the enemy.  indefinitely to “save RU”…

and I think this was gorbachov´s huge mistake.the NATO always wants more, and it´s clear to me that they would try to expand to the east.Moscow can´t allowed to have misiles so close to them.I find it surprising that nothing was said in the 80s about that.

 

 

[promise to try]

1 hour ago, Acediace said:

 

 

I will say this tho, the world need to understand that for Israel there is no partner to negotiate with to move on and create a solution for the conflict. I think this is very obvious by the recent events. If people don't see this, than they really know nothing about what's going on here

and do you think, before saturday´s attack, some kind of negotiation was possible?were the palestinians seen as a partner to negotiate?

not now, but before this saturday´s attack, a lot of people (outside of  israel) were in favour of a negotiation as the only way of salving the situation.well, at least around me, and in most of the media that I read/see/hear.The palestinians were portraid as the victims. Now everything has changed, but I think there´s a lot of media pro and against each of them everywhere. Well, the ones in favour of israel are mostly around the USA.

 

 

[sotos8]

47 minutes ago, debord said:

The change in 1948 is almost entirely due to 700-750,000 Palestinians fleeing/being expelled. The Jewish population increased less from 1947 to 1948 than it had done the year previously. Morocco had the highest Jewish population in the middle east and it was at its highest in the 1950s, so the idea they all fled in 1948 is something you've just totally made up. There were about 5000 Jews in Afghanistan in 1948 and they were allowed to emigrate *and keep their Afghan citizenship*.

The question of other countries giving citizenship is pretty irrelevant given they were expelled from their own country but there are a lot of factors at play - the UK still had 'reserved powers' in Egypt (and were still occupying it) which led to the 1952 revolution while Jordan only became formally independent of the UK in March 1948, so they kinda had other things going on. But as it happens Jordan holds the most Palestinian refugees and most of them have citizenship.

Israel did not get 'shitty desert line'. Not only profoundly ignorant but deeply racist. The area had had a thriving textile and oil economy, for example, and factories multiplied in the years before Israel. Post-independence Israel suffered an economic crisis which saw it bailed out by 'the West' and by Jewish people around the world and then start to receive enormous aid from the USA. But yes, certainly today it's one of the main arms and surveillance suppliers in the world and supplies despotic regimes around the globe.

are you an historian ? you are so informed 

[Acediace]

6 minutes ago, promise to try said:

and do you think, before saturday´s attack, some kind of negotiation was possible?were the palestinians seen as a partner to negotiate?

not now, but before this saturday´s attack, a lot of people (outside of  israel) were in favour of a negotiation as the only way of salving the situation.well, at least around me, and in most of the media that I read/see/hear.The palestinians were portraid as the victims. Now everything has changed, but I think there´s a lot of media pro and against each of them everywhere. Well, the ones in favour of israel are mostly around the USA.

 

 

I ment to say that Israel never had any partner to negotiate with and now, after Saturday  It should become clear to the whole world. Like I've heard just now that there are bodies of 40 babies and kids in one of the cities they've invaded, some without their head. You can't negotiate with this kind of thing.

[debord]

5 minutes ago, sotos8 said:

are you an historian ? you are so informed 

I studied Politics which involved a lot of history but it's more down to reading a lot and reading widely!

[promise to try]

Just now, Acediace said:

I ment to say that Israel never had any partner to negotiate with and now, after Saturday  It should become clear to the whole world. Like I've heard just now that there are bodies of 40 babies and kids in one of the cities they've invaded, some without their head. You can't negotiate with this kind of thing.

I agree that is not acceptable to kill even one person.But, do you know, a lot of people see Israel´s politician´s in the same way you have talked about hamas, right? 

[debord]

Just now, Acediace said:

I ment to say that Israel never had any partner to negotiate with and now, after Saturday  It should become clear. Like I've heard just now that there are bodies of 40 babies and kids in one of the cities they've invaded, some without their head. You can't negotiate with this kind of thing.

The new claim about headless babies has come from i24 News, which Israeli newspaper Haaretz investigated and found to have become a pro-Netanyahu station in order to get a broadcast license, saying it wasn't even an Israeli propaganda channel but specifically a Netanyahu one, which would even run stories that came directly from the Netanyahu camp. We'll see if any evidence is supplied or not.

[Acediace]

17 minutes ago, promise to try said:

I agree that is not acceptable to kill even one person.But, do you know, a lot of people see Israel´s politician´s in the same way you have talked about hamas, right? 

I have a lot of criticism on israeli politicians. I think that the main person to blame on Israel side Is Benjamin Netanyahu. He was the leader of every government for more than a decade. They let this monster to grow. I've been protesting this government this whole year for their actions. If you followed what been going on in Israel this year, you probably know what I'm talking about.

But when it comes to dealing with terrorism, There is no other way. Israel most defend itself cause if not, the recent event was only spoiler

[elijah]

3 hours ago, debord said:

Not true. In 1947 the Jewish population of what's now Israel was around 600,000 while the Arab population was over 1,000,000. And that's after leading Zionists had designated the area as the target for their state and were buying up land. They chose that area for largely biblical purposes. However Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, had also proposed plans for a Jews to settle in Cyprus, Sinai and Uganda.  The population dramatically shifted in 1948, for reasons we know.

But I agree it's pretty irrelevant now. There should be one democratic state, with the right of return for Palestinians.

OK, maybe I wasn't right about the Jews being millionS in 1947, I didn't really know what the numbers were at the time but I knew the picture has shifted significally in their favour: WW2 and all. And Israel was established in 1948. But other than that it is true that at the time it looks like the Jews were more willing to compromise (compared to the Palestinians)... That seems to have changed however after the constant wars they had to fight with their neighbours and the expansion in the West bank.

[debord]

2 minutes ago, elijah said:

OK, maybe I wasn't right about the Jews being millionS in 1947, I didn't really know what the numbers were at the time but I knew the picture has shifted significally in their favour: WW2 and all. And Israel was established in 1948. But other than that it is true that at the time it looks like the Jews were more willing to compromise (compared to the Palestinians)... That seems to have changed however after the constant wars they had to fight with their neighbours and the expansion in the West bank.

Of course they were "willing to compromise" - they were being handed land which people already lived on! People who would then have to be forcibly removed! What exactly are they losing that would make them say no to this?

[elijah]

1 minute ago, debord said:

Of course they were "willing to compromise" - they were being handed land which people already lived on! People who would then have to be forcibly removed! What exactly are they losing that would make them say no to this?

Ok, I get what you mean, but as you yourself stated there were 600 000 Jews already against 1 mill Palestinians. It could hardly be argued there were no Jews living there in late 40ties.

[debord]

4 minutes ago, elijah said:

Ok, I get what you mean, but as you yourself stated there were 600 000 Jews already against 1 mill Palestinians. It could hardly be argued there were no Jews living there in late 40ties.

I didn't claim there were no Jews living there. But as I said above, the population was increasing because Zionists had identified it as where they wanted to create the 'Jewish homeland' and so were encouraging migration there, and buying up as much land as they could. The % of the population that was Jewish doubled in the decade prior. Funnily enough, the initial intention when the UK decided to terminate the Mandate was for one state but it was Zionists who were opposed to this, not the Arabs.

[elijah]

1 minute ago, debord said:

I didn't claim there were no Jews living there. But as I said above, the population was increasing because Zionists had identified it as where they wanted to create the 'Jewish homeland' and so were encouraging migration there, and buying up as much land as they could. The % of the population that was Jewish doubled in the decade prior. Funnily enough, the initial intention when the UK decided to terminate the Mandate was for one state but it was Zionists who were opposed to this, not the Arabs.

Hardly surprising so many Jews moved to Palestine the previous decade: WW2. Zionist movement was also the reason why Britain promised a Jewish state after WW1.

[debord]

5 minutes ago, elijah said:

Hardly surprising so many Jews moved to Palestine the previous decade: WW2. Zionist movement was also the reason why Britain promised a Jewish state after WW1.

The Balfour Declaration was initiated in response to a perceived lack of British sphere of influence in the area in the late 19th century and to win the support of Jews in the war. Balfour himself was an antisemite who had led an Act through Parliament to restrict Jewish immigration to Britain and having them all move to Palestine appealed to him. Zionism was widely contested within the Jewish community for decades, with one of the primary strands opposing it, Bundism, positing that Jewish interests were best served by improving Jewish life in the countries where they lived rather than having everyone move to another country. It was geopolitical manuevering by colonial powers which saw the promise made, not some benevolent concern for Jewish people.

[karbatal]

2 hours ago, promise to try said:

and do you think, before saturday´s attack, some kind of negotiation was possible?were the palestinians seen as a partner to negotiate?

not now, but before this saturday´s attack, a lot of people (outside of  israel) were in favour of a negotiation as the only way of salving the situation.well, at least around me, and in most of the media that I read/see/hear.The palestinians were portraid as the victims. Now everything has changed, but I think there´s a lot of media pro and against each of them everywhere. Well, the ones in favour of israel are mostly around the USA.

 

 

They never wanted to negóciate with Palestine. They want them to go away and they make their life miserable so they leave.

[karbatal]

At least the EU wake’s up after days of shame: Borrell accuses Israel of violating the international law for blocking Gaza 

 

[Acediace]

Blind idiots

[debord]

9 minutes ago, Acediace said:

Blind idiots

You keep posting people repeating what Hamas has done but you take issue with even mild opposition to Israel carrying out collective punishment to murder countless civilians and using chemical weapons?

[Acediace]

8 minutes ago, debord said:

You keep posting people repeating what Hamas has done but you take issue with even mild opposition to Israel carrying out collective punishment to murder countless civilians and using chemical weapons?

First - No

Second - Israel never used chemical weapons. This is a complete lie... look for a proof for that, tell me if you find something.

This is what I'm talking about, you have a false image of the area. You've been fed up with so many semi-truths and lies that you will never believe thing that doesn't fit this narrative. But that's OK, there is really no point to have this argument

[ULIZOS]

5 hours ago, debord said:

The blockade is recognised as an occupation. If you even try to pretend otherwise then you're either utterly deluded or an extremist.

+1

Free Palestine!  

[debord]

3 minutes ago, Acediace said:

First - No

Second - Israel never used chemical weapons. This is a complete lie... look for a proof for that, tell me if you find something.

This is what I'm talking about, you have a false image of the area. You've been fed up with so many semi-truths and lies that you will never believe thing that doesn't fit this narrative. But that's OK, there is really no point to have this argument

Given you passed off the already discredited video of kids in cages as being Hamas, and above posted about decapitated babies which is already being walked back, you've got quite a cheek to talk about 'false images' and 'semi-truths'. Orgs like Human Rights Watch have documented Israel's use of chemical weapons in Gaza while Israel denied it. Hilariously, despite denying it, they then announced they would stop using it in 2013. So I'm inclined to believe the scores of videos from Gaza showing it being used as part of the campaign against civilians there.

[Acediace]

19 minutes ago, debord said:

Given you passed off the already discredited video of kids in cages as being Hamas, and above posted about decapitated babies which is already being walked back, you've got quite a cheek to talk about 'false images' and 'semi-truths'. Orgs like Human Rights Watch have documented Israel's use of chemical weapons in Gaza while Israel denied it. Hilariously, despite denying it, they then announced they would stop using it in 2013. So I'm inclined to believe the scores of videos from Gaza showing it being used as part of the campaign against civilians there.

1. The decapitated babies is real. In one cities there are 40 bodies of babies and children with some of the decapitated. It's real. I don't need to use this story to create a shocking image. There are enough videos that Hamas terrorists upload in social media of murdered people, videos of them starting to burn down houses, young people rub for their lives in a festival and dead bodies of woman being paraded in Gaza. Don't belive it  whatever the other cases are well all over social media. There a woman and daughter  that got photos of the dead grandma from her phone being send by the terrorists. Another story about kids is not gonna change the value of the level of their psychotic barbarian behavior. And you are calling the campaign... this is just sick

 

2. Again it's a lie. Israel never used chemical weapons. Never. Don't belive this? Fine whatever I really don't care.

[debord]

8 minutes ago, Acediace said:

1. The decapitated babies is real. In one cities there are 40 bodies of babies and children with some of the decapitated. It's real. I don't need to use this story to create a shocking image. There are enough videos that Hamas terrorists upload in social media of murdered people, videos of them starting to burn down houses, young people rub for their lives in a festival and dead bodies of woman being paraded in Gaza. Don't belive it  whatever the other cases are well all over social media. There a woman and daughter  that got photos of the dead grandma from her phone being send by the terrorists. Another story about kids is not gonna change the value of the level of their psychotic barbarian behavior. And you are calling the campaign... this is just sick

 

2. Again it's a lie. Israel never used chemical weapons. Never. Don't belive this? Fine whatever I really don't care.

The decapitated babies story came from a single source, which is discredited. The IDF has even said it has no evidence of it. Suggesting it's true because Hamas killed people is absolutely ridiculous.

And yes, Israel has used chemical weapons. Saying there's a possibility they haven't now is one thing, saying it has never used them is just a flat lie.

[Acediace]

28 minutes ago, debord said:

The decapitated babies story came from a single source, which is discredited. The IDF has even said it has no evidence of it. Suggesting it's true because Hamas killed people is absolutely ridiculous.

And yes, Israel has used chemical weapons. Saying there's a possibility they haven't now is one thing, saying it has never used them is just a flat lie.

Israel never use chemical weapons. Period.

 

The 40 dead kids from one city (including babies) with some of them decapitated is real ad it gets. I'm not gonna post it here. Use Google translate to Hebrew and search the word babies. There are blurry images on social media. These are stuff that soldiers that are there said to people. I don't care about the single reporter from i24 or whatever. There are a lot of people that volunteer and gives food, clothes and stuff for soldiers that in the area, a lot of people are saying that the soldiers tell them about stuff that still havent been published and they this is much worst than action been done by Isis. Hamas=Isis period.

[debord]

1 minute ago, Acediace said:

Israel never use chemical weapons. Period.

 

The 40 dead kids from one city (including babies) with some of them decapitated is real ad it gets. I'm not gonna post it here. Use Google translate to Hebrew and search the word babies. There are blurry images on social media. These are stuff that soldiers that are there said to people. I don't care about the single reporter from i24 or whatever. There are a lot of people that volunteer and gives food, clothes and stuff for soldiers that in the area, a lot of people are saying that the soldiers tell them about stuff that still havent been published and they this is much worst than action been done by Isis. Hamas=Isis period.

Israel ADMITTED USING CHEMICAL WEAPONS! Jesus Christ, how in denial are you? Google it!

"Blurry images on social media". Christ. I repeat, the IDF ITSELF has said it has so evidence this has happened. Meanwhile at least 260 children have been killed in Gaza in the past couple of days, on top of the at least 47 Palestinian kids murdered before this month in 2023.

[Acediace]

1 minute ago, debord said:

Israel ADMITTED USING CHEMICAL WEAPONS! Jesus Christ, how in denial are you? Google it!

"Blurry images on social media". Christ. I repeat, the IDF ITSELF has said it has so evidence this has happened. Meanwhile at least 260 children have been killed in Gaza in the past couple of days, on top of the at least 47 Palestinian kids murdered before this month in 2023.

Israel never admitted usage of chemical weapons!!!!! Never!!!! 

Fucking look fir social media videos and images from the recent event!!!! There are so many videos of woman and children being dragged, kidnapped and so many horrible stuff!!! Fucking listen to the news. Everybody is reporting these stuff!!!!! It all over gucking social media!!!!!

 

But whatever bye see ya in celebration  tour in Amsterdam if I'll live by then

[debord]

Just now, Acediace said:

Israel never admitted usage of chemical weapons!!!!! Never!!!! 

Fucking look fir social media videos and images from the recent event!!!! There are so many videos of woman and children being dragged, kidnapped and so many horrible stuff!!! Fucking listen to the news. Everybody is reporting these stuff!!!!! It all over gucking social media!!!!!

 

But whatever bye see ya in celebration  tour in Amsterdam if I'll live by then

"Sun 22 Oct 2006 19.04 

The Israeli government has admitted that it used controversial phosphorus weapons in its attacks against targets during its month long war in Lebanon this summer.

The chemical can be used in shells, missiles and grenades and causes horrific burning when it comes into contact with human flesh.

White phosphorus (WP) weapons are not forbidden by international law but some human rights groups believe they should be re-classified as chemical weapons and banned.

The Israeli admission was made by the cabinet minister, Jacob Edery, who was questioned on the subject by Zahava Gal-On, a member of the Knesset. Mr Edery told Ms Gal-On: "The IDF [Israel Defence Force] holds phosphorus munitions in different forms. The IDF made use of phosphorus shells during the war against Hizbullah in attacks against military targets in open ground."

I'll await your correction.

[runa]

It's echo chamber at this point. 

[promise to try]

I´ve see the images of the phosphorous weapons, but I thought they were new images, not from 2006. are they using them again?

[Je5u5]

And this is why the algorithms ruin our perceptions of many situations as we are constantly fed with content alligned with what we've shown interest previously.