Israel and Hamas war

[debord]

57 minutes ago, elijah said:

I ve read extensively on the matter, thank you very much. I dont see any paralels between Ukraine and Palestine by the way. The HUGE difference: RU recognized UKR in their international borders back in 1991. Untill 2013 RU didnt have any pretensions against UKR territory. Now Palestine was never recognized by Israel, nor was Israel ever regognized by the Palestine... They were never two mutually recognized states living side by side UNLIKE Russia and Ukraine (basically existing by each side and in friendly relations from 1991 till 2013). So, really, I see no paralels in those situations. Sure, there are RU minorities within UKR, but I really wonder where would those prefer to live in presently IF a democratic referendum is held: I would assume UKR in the vast majority.

Now I am not urging Palestinians to give up their land. I never was. I was merely making an observation that the Palestinians had multiple times the chance to have their independant state (from the 40ties onward) and UNFORTUNATELY with each passing year their proposed territory shrinks. I am not justifying Israels actions in West Bank, thats for sure. What I am saying is that Israel and Palestine have not recognized each other as a state for decades... Israel is the obvious stronger side in this conflict and is using  the time to enlarge the territories it was assigned in the 40ties. Anyways, Israel had to fight wars and was victorious in all of them and gained control of most of the Palestinian assigned territories. At this point neither seems ready to back down and thats why I see only a federal state as a viable solution.

It's completely irrelevant what states recognised each other and when. Gaza is recognised by the international community as an occupied terrority, and that comes with particular rights of resistance. But actually yes I agree with you, one state, however that's constituted, is the only viable solution.

[Acediace]

44 minutes ago, debord said:

Just constantly repeating that there is violence and swearing isn't an argument. And 'the media that I consumed'? If I based my views on Israel/Palestine solely on the media, I would be a rabid supporter of Israel. We can see right now that our governments are all looking the other way as Israel commits horrific war crimes, just as they look the other way as it commits ethnic cleansing.

The first time New York times published something about what is happening right now, they wrote that there's a situation or something like that with a picture of two Palestinians mothers crying. Don't tell me the media coverage in the world is pro Israel, this is some bullshit. You guys know nothing about things that going on here on regular basis. There were 35 terror action only this year in Israel by Palestinians terrorists. Did any of you ever heard about that?

Last year, few meters from where I work, while I was working, a Palestinian terrorist started shooting and killed 5 Israelis. Did you ever heard about that case?

No, you only hear when Israel is responding in Gaza. You hear about those stuff. Not about the rockets, tunnels , shooting and stabing that comes from Palestinians. Only when Israel is responding. So much that now all I see in social media are stuff like "yeah this is their resistance"

Yeah... resistance 

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, runa said:

Since 2008, 6407 Palestinians were killed while 308 Israelis were killed in the context of the occupation and conflict.

Those are official numbers from the United Nations. FACTS. Not Instagram posts from nobodies. That was before the attack, obviously.

Having said that, I condemn the Hamas attack against Israel. If they wanted to make things worse for Palestinians, well done.

Preach 

[Acediace]

49 minutes ago, debord said:

It's completely irrelevant what states recognised each other and when. Gaza is recognised by the international community as an occupied terrority, and that comes with particular rights of resistance. But actually yes I agree with you, one state, however that's constituted, is the only viable solution.

Gaza is not occupied, Israel is not in Gaza, Isreal left this territory completely in 2005. The West Bank is the complicated issue regarding the occupation and is where the international community see as  occupied. Not that for the Palestinian iisreally matters... for them, whole Israel should be palestine. From the river to the sea

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, elijah said:

How exacly? I dont see your logic. Please elaborate.

Palestine shouldn’t even have to share the land of what nowadays is Israel. They created a new State based on where people lived centuries ago. Just what Putin did with Crimea. Israel had the same rights on that land as Russia has on Crimea: NONE.

[Acediace]

2 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Preach 

I'm really sorry that we're not dying enough. I will let terrorist kill me next year to change the statistics

[karbatal]

1 minute ago, Acediace said:

Gaza is not occupied, Israel is not in Gaza, Isreal left this territory completely in 2005. The West Bank is the complicated issue regarding the occupation and is where the international community see as  occupied. Not that for the Palestinian iisreally matters... for them, whole Israel should be palestine. From the river to the sea

You are aware that the colonization of more and more lands is on the news here and that we know also that Israel never fulfills the UNO dictates? 

[Acediace]

Just now, karbatal said:

Palestine shouldn’t even have to share the land of what nowadays is Israel. They created a new State based on where people lived centuries ago. Just what Putin did with Crimea. Israel had the same rights on that land as Russia has on Crimea: NONE.

We have the right and we are gonna stay here

[karbatal]

1 minute ago, Acediace said:

I'm really sorry that we're not dying enough. I will let terrorist kill me next year to change the statistics

I don’t want a single Israeli person to die. 

[karbatal]

Just now, Acediace said:

We have the right and we are gonna stay here

Ok. But never in history of humanity occupied people have accepted that without a war. Unless they were totally decimated. 

[elijah]

49 minutes ago, debord said:

It's completely irrelevant what states recognised each other and when. Gaza is recognised by the international community as an occupied terrority, and that comes with particular rights of resistance. But actually yes I agree with you, one state, however that's constituted, is the only viable solution.

I d say mutually recognizing each other as a state is a HUGE difference for RU and UKR. At first, it means each of the states recognizes the sovereignity of the other state over its territory (UN Charter basic principle). Thats why 2022 invasion of RU was shocking, appauling, in breach of international law and surely NOT in any way similar to Israel/Palestine situation. Now with Israel/Palestine you had one, common territory, ruled by the UK till the 40ties. In their mandate, UK declared they would seek establishing a Jewish state in Palestine (back after 1st WW when the Ottoman empire was defeated and UK was "awarded" with a mandate over Palestine). The first clashes of Jews and Palestines are from the 30ties. Then in the 40ties UK left, Israel declared itself a state while Palestine refused to declare itself a state and didnt recognize Israel, claiming all of Palestine. Then in the following decades Israel fought basically non stop against most of the Arab world. I really see nothing in common with UKR to be honest...

[Acediace]

Look, I know that I write in very emotional way and it's not black or white... but you have no idea how scared and hurt I am. I don't see Palestinian as bad people, I have friend from collage that ate Palestinian. We do live in peace on regular times. I do see Hamas as bad tho.

There is no point for me to actually talk about this In a madonna forum. I now that I will not change your mind

 I just do this to pass the time

[runa]

5 minutes ago, Acediace said:

I'm really sorry that we're not dying enough. I will let terrorist kill me next year to change the statistics

No one said that. 
It's exactly this type of post that takes away any form of credibility from you. Just like the fact you're on a Madonna forum, but you never post anything about her. 

 

[ULIZOS]

1 minute ago, runa said:

No one said that. 
It's exactly this type of post that takes away any form of credibility from you. Just like the fact you're on a Madonna forum, but you never post anything about her. 

 

+1 it’s a waste of time talking to people like him(her?). He will misconstrue every single thing you say and In the end you will be called anti-Semitic 
 

 

[debord]

18 minutes ago, Acediace said:

The first time New York times published something about what is happening right now, they wrote that there's a situation or something like that with a picture of two Palestinians mothers crying. Don't tell me the media coverage in the world is pro Israel, this is some bullshit. You guys know nothing about things that going on here on regular basis. There were 35 terror action only this year in Israel by Palestinians terrorists. Did any of you ever heard about that?

Last year, few meters from where I work, while I was working, a Palestinian terrorist started shooting and killed 5 Israelis. Did you ever heard about that case?

No, you only hear when Israel is responding in Gaza. You hear about those stuff. Not about the rockets, tunnels , shooting and stabing that comes from Palestinians. Only when Israel is responding. So much that now all I see in social media are stuff like "yeah this is their resistance"

Yeah... resistance 

"they wrote that there's a situation or something like that with a picture of two Palestinians mothers crying. "

Wow, that sure sounds conclusive. Can you point me to the reams of articles on the NYT covering Israeli apartheid and ethnic cleansing, and the murder of hundreds of Palestinians this year (as of September it was over 200 Palestinians and less than 30 Israelis)?

Social media is different because yeah, ordinary people are more inclined to take issue with apartheid. That's always been the way.

[karbatal]

5 minutes ago, Acediace said:

Look, I know that I write in very emotional way and it's not black or white... but you have no idea how scared and hurt I am. I don't see Palestinian as bad people, I have friend from collage that ate Palestinian. We do live in peace on regular times. I do see Hamas as bad tho.

There is no point for me to actually talk about this In a madonna forum. I now that I will not change your mind

 I just do this to pass the time

The thing is that of course we are not minimizing anything. And we all condemn Hamas. We simply add another important issue in the equation. An issue that if all democratic Israeli person added too would mean the end of much suffering. Nobody in Israel should accept that Palestine is right now blocked and bombed just like nobody in Palestine should accept such a horrifying terror attack on Israel. 

[debord]

17 minutes ago, Acediace said:

Gaza is not occupied, Israel is not in Gaza, Isreal left this territory completely in 2005. The West Bank is the complicated issue regarding the occupation and is where the international community see as  occupied. Not that for the Palestinian iisreally matters... for them, whole Israel should be palestine. From the river to the sea

The blockade is recognised as an occupation. If you even try to pretend otherwise then you're either utterly deluded or an extremist.

[debord]

12 minutes ago, elijah said:

I d say mutually recognizing each other as a state is a HUGE difference for RU and UKR. At first, it means each of the states recognizes the sovereignity of the other state over its territory (UN Charter basic principle). Thats why 2022 invasion of RU was shocking, appauling, in breach of international law and surely NOT in any way similar to Israel/Palestine situation. Now with Israel/Palestine you had one, common territory, ruled by the UK till the 40ties. In their mandate, UK declared they would seek establishing a Jewish state in Palestine (back after 1st WW when the Ottoman empire was defeated and UK was "awarded" with a mandate over Palestine). The first clashes of Jews and Palestines are from the 30ties. Then in the 40ties UK left, Israel declared itself a state while Palestine refused to declare itself a state and didnt recognize Israel, claiming all of Palestine. Then in the following decades Israel fought basically non stop against most of the Arab world. I really see nothing in common with UKR to be honest...

Your history is not accurate but it's irrelevant and I already said why: Gaza is recognised as occupied in international law. That is all that matters here.

[elijah]

6 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Palestine shouldn’t even have to share the land of what nowadays is Israel. They created a new State based on where people lived centuries ago. Just what Putin did with Crimea. Israel had the same rights on that land as Russia has on Crimea: NONE.

Hmmm. Really there is no analogy between your examples. The Jewish state wasnt created "based on where people lived centuries ago". In 1947, when Israel was declared a state, there were already millions of Jews living in what is presentday Israel. It was created based on where Jews lived in 1947. Maybe you mean the fact that UK in their mandade over Palestine after WW1 declared they would establish a Jewish state? However as someone mentioned, Jews lived in Palestine anyways, but many Jews moveden masse from Europe due to pogroms and WW2. In the 40ties they were already millions Jews living in Palestine.

Cremea is no analogus for Israel. It was first populated by Cremean Tatars (original ppl that lived there), after that it was taken over by the Russian empire and many Russians and Ukrainians went to live there. Then Stalin moved millions of Tatars from Cremea and basically changed the ethnic composition: the majority were Russians. Cremea was part of the Russian USSR until 1954 when Chruschov (and the Communist party of USSR) made it part of Ukraine. After 1991 it remained within Ukraine (with Russian majority) and Russia recognized it as part of Ukraine. Not only that: in 1994 Ukraine gave up all its nuclear arms to Russia and Russia, USA, UK and France garanteed Ukraine's sovereignity and security and obliged to go to war if someone invaded Ukraine. Shocking: the one who had to protect Ukraine, invade it. How are the two situations similar really?

And when you say "Palestine shouldn’t even have to share the land of what nowadays is Israel", you understand there are 10 million Jews in Israel now, right? If Palestine shouldnt share land with them, what should those people do? Move back to Spain, from where they were chased out in 1492???? 

[karbatal]

3 minutes ago, elijah said:

 

And when you say "Palestine shouldn’t even have to share the land of what nowadays is Israel", you understand there are 10 million Jews in Israel now, right? If Palestine shouldnt share land with them, what should those people do? Move back to Spain, from where they were chased out in 1492???? 

I don’t think Israel should disappear. I say they should understand they occupied the lands. So at least they stop stealing more and give back much stolen these past decades. 
 

About what you say about 1492 I will not comment because those are words from a CUNT. Fuck off.

[elijah]

8 minutes ago, debord said:

Your history is not accurate but it's irrelevant and I already said why: Gaza is recognised as occupied in international law. That is all that matters here.

In what exactly? I d say all I said is deffinately facts.

[elijah]

1 minute ago, karbatal said:

I don’t think Israel should disappear. I say they should understand they occupied the lands. So at least they stop stealing more and give back much stolen these past decades. 
 

About what you say about 1492 I will not comment because those are words from a CUNT. Fuck off.

What? And why are you speaking to me in such a tone? Did I ever insult you like you are doing here? And for what: pointing out that its not realistic what you are proposing: "Palestine shouldn’t even have to share the land of what nowadays is Israel"?

[debord]

6 minutes ago, elijah said:

Hmmm. Really there is no analogy between your examples. The Jewish state wasnt created "based on where people lived centuries ago". In 1947, when Israel was declared a state, there were already millions of Jews living in what is presentday Israel. It was created based on where Jews lived in 1947. Maybe you mean the fact that UK in their mandade over Palestine after WW1 declared they would establish a Jewish state? However as someone mentioned, Jews lived in Palestine anyways, but many Jews moveden masse from Europe due to pogroms and WW2. In the 40ties they were already millions Jews living in Palestine.

Not true. In 1947 the Jewish population of what's now Israel was around 600,000 while the Arab population was over 1,000,000. And that's after leading Zionists had designated the area as the target for their state and were buying up land. They chose that area for largely biblical purposes. However Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, had also proposed plans for a Jews to settle in Cyprus, Sinai and Uganda.  The population dramatically shifted in 1948, for reasons we know.

But I agree it's pretty irrelevant now. There should be one democratic state, with the right of return for Palestinians.

[Acediace]

15 minutes ago, elijah said:

In what exactly? I d say all I said is deffinately facts.

Your history is definitely accurate.

But there is really no point for having this argument in a Maronna forum. Each persona see reality as he see. Really no point and it's a totally waste of time.

 

I will say this tho, the world need to understand that for Israel there is no partner to negotiate with to move on and create a solution for the conflict. I think this is very obvious by the recent events. If people don't see this, than they really know nothing about what's going on here

[debord]

10 minutes ago, elijah said:

In what exactly? I d say all I said is deffinately facts.

"Then in the 40ties UK left, Israel declared itself a state while Palestine refused to declare itself a state "

That's a laughable interpretation of 1948 which no Palestinian would agree with. The UK didn't 'leave', it (and other world powers) attempted to partition Mandatory Palestine in terms which saw the most useful land becoming Israel and enormous population transfer of Arabs (something which, as we saw in India/Pakistan, leads to mass deaths). And the idea that Palestinians after the Nakba could just have declared a state is nonsense. But I keep refusing to get into it because it's pretty irrelevant to now.

[debord]

1 minute ago, Acediace said:

Your history is definitely accurate.

But there is really no point for having this argument in a Maronna forum. Each persona see reality as he see. Really no point and it's a totally waste of time.

 

I will say this tho, the world need to understand that for Israel there is no partner to negotiate with to move on and create a solution for the conflict. I think this is very obvious by the recent events. If people don't see this, than they really know nothing about what's going on here

The fact that Israel helped bolster Hamas in order to undermine the PLO and turn Palestinians against each other would have something to do with their not being one political org which is seen to represent all Palestinians. But funnily enough even for the Oslo Accords, Israel refused to negotiate with the PLO cos it said they were terrorists - it was largely Egypt and Jordan they negotiated with.

[whyme?]

55 minutes ago, debord said:

Not true. In 1947 the Jewish population of what's now Israel was around 600,000 while the Arab population was over 1,000,000. And that's after leading Zionists had designated the area as the target for their state and were buying up land. They chose that area for largely biblical purposes. However Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, had also proposed plans for a Jews to settle in Cyprus, Sinai and Uganda.  The population dramatically shifted in 1948, for reasons we know.

But I agree it's pretty irrelevant now. There should be one democratic state, with the right of return for Palestinians.

The population also dramatically shifted for other “reasons we know”. Practically all the Jews from middle eastern countries (from Morocco all the way to Afghanistan) had to leave their countries and Israel was their only hope. So the population shifted to Jewish. Why didn’t Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon grant their Muslim brothers citizenship instead of keeping them in rotten refugee camps for decades!?!? 

The UN partition of land in 1948 was probably the smartest thing that was done there in the last 80 years. Two states for two peoples. Instead, 5 Arab countries attacked the new state of Israel and there have been wars ever since. Israel made the best of the shitty desert land it got and created one of the biggest economical miracles of the last century. A true bastion of democracy, education and technology that its Arab neighbors should have LEARNT FROM AND BENEFITTED FROM instead of attacking and killing them! 
Meanwhile, the Palestinians leadership was rotten to the core and instilled a toxic culture of victimization and hate into its people. This is why I always say - get rid of Hamas and these horrid extremist groups. It just hurts the Palestinian people and makes Israel even more hawkish. 
 

[Acediace]

1 minute ago, whyme? said:

The population also dramatically shifted for other reasons we know. Practically all the Jews from middle eastern countries (from Morocco all the way to Afghanistan) had to leave their countries and Israel was their only hope. So the population shifted to Jewish. Why didn’t Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon grant their Muslim brothers citizenship instead of keeping them in rotten refugee camps for decades!?!? 

The UN partition of land in 1948 was probably the smartest thing that was done there in the last 80 years. Two states for two peoples. Instead, 5 Arab countries attacked the new state of Israel and there have been wars ever since. Israel made the best of the shitty desert land it got and created one of the biggest economical miracles of the last century. A true bastion of democracy, education and technology that its Arab neighbors should have LEARNT FROM AND BENEFITTED FROM instead of attacking and killing them! 
Meanwhile, the Palestinians leadership was rotten to the core and instilled a toxic culture of victimization and hate into its people. This is why I always say - get rid of Hamas and these horrid extremist groups. It just hurts the Palestinian people and makes Israel even more hawkish. 
 

Period

[sotos8]

This attack was so brutal and unhuman in every possible way so i can't stomach it , it makes me really sick .with the attack palestenians have lost any justification thay had before the  and instead they are now playing their role in other bigger  countries fight of power in the region .They only have to lose , they won't gain anything

[debord]

1 minute ago, whyme? said:

The population also dramatically shifted for other reasons we know. Practically all the Jews from middle eastern countries (from Morocco all the way to Afghanistan) had to leave their countries and Israel was their only hope. So the population shifted to Jewish. Why didn’t Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon grant their Muslim brothers citizenship instead of keeping them in rotten refugee camps for decades!?!? 

The UN partition of land in 1948 was probably the smartest thing that was done there in the last 80 years. Two states for two peoples. Instead, 5 Arab countries attacked the new state of Israel and there have been wars ever since. Israel made the best of the shitty desert land it got and created one of the biggest economical miracles of the last century. A true bastion of democracy, education and technology that its Arab neighbors should have LEARNT FROM AND BENEFITTED FROM instead of attacking and killing them! 
Meanwhile, the Palestinians leadership was rotten to the core and instilled a toxic culture of victimization and hate into its people. This is why I always say - get rid of Hamas and these horrid extremist groups. It just hurts the Palestinian people and makes Israel even more hawkish. 
 

The change in 1948 is almost entirely due to 700-750,000 Palestinians fleeing/being expelled. The Jewish population increased less from 1947 to 1948 than it had done the year previously. Morocco had the highest Jewish population in the middle east and it was at its highest in the 1950s, so the idea they all fled in 1948 is something you've just totally made up. There were about 5000 Jews in Afghanistan in 1948 and they were allowed to emigrate *and keep their Afghan citizenship*.

The question of other countries giving citizenship is pretty irrelevant given they were expelled from their own country but there are a lot of factors at play - the UK still had 'reserved powers' in Egypt (and were still occupying it) which led to the 1952 revolution while Jordan only became formally independent of the UK in March 1948, so they kinda had other things going on. But as it happens Jordan holds the most Palestinian refugees and most of them have citizenship.

Israel did not get 'shitty desert line'. Not only profoundly ignorant but deeply racist. The area had had a thriving textile and oil economy, for example, and factories multiplied in the years before Israel. Post-independence Israel suffered an economic crisis which saw it bailed out by 'the West' and by Jewish people around the world and then start to receive enormous aid from the USA. But yes, certainly today it's one of the main arms and surveillance suppliers in the world and supplies despotic regimes around the globe.