New war in Europe, courtesy of Putin

[air1975]

57 minutes ago, air1975 said:

 

Actually, yes - sort of. 

I get that you are trying to examine the complex underpinnings and history begin Putin's move. However, consider this scenario: 

Lets say the Holocaust is being discussed, and you say - "well Hitler had his reasons; Hitler made concentration camps because of this reason; this was why Hitler felt he had to choose this path"  And you do not condemn it - then it comes off as being an apologist, and it comes off as justifying and agreeing with his actions.

One can certainly examine Hitler's actions and reasons behind them - but it would be important to acknowledge that you disagree with them. 

 

26 minutes ago, sotos8 said:

you can't compare a holocaust to a war and to who it would be important?

The holocaust was used as an example. Let me rephrase:

Lets say a man kills all the people in the neighboring house. If you say "Well, I can understand his reasons. The neighbors were gossiping about him. One of the neighbors was flirting with his wife etc etc", and you do not condemn the murder - then you are in a way, justifying it and condoning it.

We are talking about Putin INVADING a sovereign country in 2022, leading to unfathomable death, destruction, displacement and misery. You can certainly examine his rationale but yes, you SHOULD denounce it. Otherwise, as I said before - it does appear you are justifying his invasion and you are agreeing with it. 

[air1975]

20 minutes ago, Nessie said:

The attempts to associate this Putin adventurism to Hitler blitz is everywhere in the western media, a farcry from the factual reality, ignoring that Ukraine itself has a whole battalion bearing nazi insigneas (Azov battalion) which yearly hosts a military parade of torch marchs in the center of Kiev to celebrate the memory of a very well know WW2 nazi colaborator.

 

Sigh. Again this flawed logic. 

You can dig up whatever  you want about fucked up things in Ukraine (I find the Nazi battalion absolutely disgusting). You can also dig up whatever you want about how EU or US may have acted in the past. The fact remains that Putin has now invaded a sovereign country, unleashing death and misery. That is abhorrent on a much much larger scale. 

[Nessie]

1 minute ago, air1975 said:

 

The holocaust was used as an example. Let me rephrase:

Lets say a man kills all the people in the neighboring house. If you say "Well, I can understand his reasons. The neighbors were gossiping about him. One of the neighbors was flirting with his wife etc etc", and you do not condemn the murder - then you are in a way, justifying it and condoning it.

We are talking about Putin INVADING a sovereign country in 2022, leading to unfathomable death, destruction, displacement and misery. You can certainly examine his rationale but yes, you SHOULD denounce it. Otherwise, as I said before - it does appear you are justifying his invasion and you are agreeing with it. 

The holocaust was a genocide policy of entire segments of the enslaved population, it was rooted in the nazi ideology from the very beggining. It is not in itself motivated by the war, it was officialy conducted by the Nazi state precisely as Hitler intended it to be on Mein Kampf.

This agression from Putin is what it is: a military invasion of a country with the clear goal to dominate its policital course. We can only talk about genocide if a policy of genocide is officialy commited on behalf of the agressor, which is not the case.

[air1975]

6 minutes ago, Nessie said:

The holocaust was a genocide policy of entire segments of the enslaved population, it was rooted in the nazi ideology from the very beggining. It is not in itself motivated by the war, it was officialy conducted by the Nazi state precisely as Hitler intended it to be on Mein Kampf.

This agression from Putin is what it is: a military invasion of a country with the clear goal to dominate its policital course. We can only talk about genocide if a policy of genocide is officialy commited on behalf of the agressor, which is not the case.

I repeat : the holocaust was used in an example re: justifying horrible actions without condemning them. I am not at all saying that what Putin is doing is the Holocaust. If you think I am, you are mistaken.

I repeat: Lets say a man kills all the people in the neighboring house. If you say "Well, I can understand his reasons. The neighbors were gossiping about him. One of the neighbors was flirting with his wife etc etc", and you do not condemn the murder - then you are in a way, justifying it and condoning it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Nessie said:

The attempts to associate this Putin adventurism to Hitler blitz is everywhere in the western media, a farcry from the factual reality, ignoring that Ukraine itself has a whole battalion bearing nazi insigneas (Azov battalion) which yearly hosts a military parade of torch marchs in the center of Kiev to celebrate the memory of a very well know WW2 nazi colaborator.

 

 is this the reason why putin is calling the ukraine government nazis?

[Nessie]

12 minutes ago, promise to try said:

 is this the reason why putin is calling the ukraine government nazis?

Probably yes it is, since the the Azov battalion is the main branch of the Ukraine military in the east with the task to destroy the separatists enclaves and retake the rebel cities by force. This was the main force on the ground till yesterday. Now after the Russia invasion this battalion has likely been liquidated in the battlefield, there hasnt been any reports of the battles in the east yet.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Nessie said:

Probably yes it is, since the the Azov battalion is the main branch of the Ukraine military in the east with the task to destroy the separatists enclaves and retake the rebel cities by force. This was the main force on the ground till yesterday. Now after the Russia invasion this battalion has likely been liquidated in the battlefield, there hasnt been any reports of the battles in the east yet.

interesting. I guess he is also mentioning the word nazi  to make us think that he is a good man fighting  the "pro nazi government".well, it´s not working.

[elijah]

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/russia-military-repurcussions-finland-nato-163803214.html?guccounter=1

[beta_test]

well if we step back we all know who is also strongly supporting all neo-nazi and right wing parties in all EU countries, the big de-nazifier - also someone who is making use of fashist dictatorship playbooks all the time. Also pretty transparent that in the Duma the nationalist right wing was always allowed to spew their hatred on minorities too. But let's all pretend Ukraine and the West has only this right wing problem (which they in fact do) just glossing over who is strongly supporting them and thus also their big hero.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, beta_test said:

well if we step back we all know who is also strongly supporting all neo-nazi and right wing parties in all EU countries, the big de-nazifier - also someone who is making use of fashist dictatorship playbooks all the time. Also pretty transparent that in the Duma the nationalist right wing was always allowed to spew their hatred on minorities too. But let's all pretend Ukraine and the West has only this right wing problem (which they in fact do) just glossing over who is strongly supporting them and thus also their big hero.

[sotos8]

11 minutes ago, promise to try said:

 both of them actually

[Guest CzarnaWisnia]

34 minutes ago, elijah said:

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/russia-military-repurcussions-finland-nato-163803214.html?guccounter=1

terrifying prospects

[karbatal]

2 hours ago, air1975 said:

 

Actually, yes - sort of. 

I get that you are trying to examine the complex underpinnings and history begin Putin's move. However, consider this scenario: 

Lets say the Holocaust is being discussed, and you say - "well Hitler had his reasons; Hitler made concentration camps because of this reason; this was why Hitler felt he had to choose this path"  And you do not condemn it - then it comes off as being an apologist, and it comes off as justifying and agreeing with his actions.

One can certainly examine Hitler's actions and reasons behind them - but it would be important to acknowledge that you disagree with them. 

No. The correct way is to analyze why there was a fertile soil for a Hitler to rise. Then you study sociological and economic reasons and go back to the hard Versailles treaty. Then we LEARN how important is to make intelligent treaties after war to avoid the situation.

And nobody who learns from that supports the Holocaust.

There is a GREAT documentary on 11S in Netflix. Was released last September. It’s five chapters. It starts with the Afghanistan in the 80s. To understand how the URSS invasion and the USA interference made not only Al Qaeda but also to understand what lead to 11S. And NOBODY supported the attacks, but explains how the terribly wrong foreign politics of both USSR and USA made a land of terrorists.

[sotos8]

1 hour ago, Nessie said:

Probably yes it is, since the the Azov battalion is the main branch of the Ukraine military in the east with the task to destroy the separatists enclaves and retake the rebel cities by force. This was the main force on the ground till yesterday. Now after the Russia invasion this battalion has likely been liquidated in the battlefield, there hasnt been any reports of the battles in the east yet.

Zach Dorfman recently was recently saying that since 2015 CIA is enforcing and probably training neonazis in Ukraine.

Last summer the Daily Beast published an interview by the journalists Will Cathcart and Joseph Epstein in which a member of the Azov battalion spoke about “his battalion’s experience with U.S. trainers and U.S. volunteers quite fondly, even mentioning U.S. volunteers engineers and medics that are still currently assisting them.”

Furthermore Congress Has Removed a Ban on Funding Neo-Nazis From Its Year-End Spending Bill

All these are butter on Putin's bread

[sotos8]

6 minutes ago, karbatal said:

No. The correct way is to analyze why there was a fertile soil for a Hitler to rise. Then you study sociological and economic reasons and go back to the hard Versailles treaty. Then we LEARN how important is to make intelligent treaties after war to avoid the situation.

And nobody who learns from that supports the Holocaust.

There is a GREAT documentary on 11S in Netflix. Was released last September. It’s five chapters. It starts with the Afghanistan in the 80s. To understand how the URSS invasion and the USA interference made not only Al Qaeda but also to understand what lead to 11S. And NOBODY supported the attacks, but explains how the terribly wrong foreign politics of both USSR and USA made a land of terrorists.

i've seen it ,it's great !

[karbatal]

I can’t believe that the first sanction come from EUROVISON

I can’t imagine what the Ukrainian people will be thinking of the supposed allies.

 

[sotos8]

Just now, sotos8 said:

Then we LEARN how important is to make intelligent treaties after war to avoid the situation

that's why Germany's debt after the end of the WW2 was heavily decreased in order  the faults of the Versaille treaty not to be repeated

[karbatal]

3 minutes ago, sotos8 said:

i've seen it ,it's great !

It really gave an incredible insight of the foreign politics of the past 40 years.

[Guest CzarnaWisnia]

10 minutes ago, karbatal said:

No. The correct way is to analyze why there was a fertile soil for a Hitler to rise. Then you study sociological and economic reasons and go back to the hard Versailles treaty. Then we LEARN how important is to make intelligent treaties after war to avoid the situation.

And nobody who learns from that supports the Holocaust.

There is a GREAT documentary on 11S in Netflix. Was released last September. It’s five chapters. It starts with the Afghanistan in the 80s. To understand how the URSS invasion and the USA interference made not only Al Qaeda but also to understand what lead to 11S. And NOBODY supported the attacks, but explains how the terribly wrong foreign politics of both USSR and USA made a land of terrorists.

I think the issue is two-fold. Firstly, since the crisis is happening at this very moment, any examination of the context leading up to it is deemed insensitive or crazy, except if one adopts the politically correct explanation, then it's acceptable as it helps to reinforce the expression of dismay and outrage. Secondly, one has to hold the correct view in any case, which doesn't have to be supported by the facts or endorsed by scholars and analysts. When 11S happened, the explanation your documentary details would have been absolutely unacceptable to most people.

[karbatal]

1 minute ago, sotos8 said:

that's why Germany's debt after the end of the WW2 was heavily decreased in order  the faults of the Versaille treaty not to be repeated

And the creation of the Treaty of Paris only SIX YEARS after WWII to create a community in Europe regarding Coal and Steel. To share the commodities that lead to Nazi Germany to expand the territories. That was the embryo of the European Union.

Just how important is to understand the causes of the conflicts. Thanks to that countries that were enemies became part of the same community. And peace lasted for decades .

And nobody was accused of being pro Hitler for understanding the reasons.

[Guest CzarnaWisnia]

or not

[lex92]

At this point it makes no sense to analyze the historic events that lead Putin to invade a souvereign democrazy in europe.

At the very moment there is people fighting for their human rights.

So what they need is our emphathy and moral support as all that is happening right now.

Historians will analyze all that afterwards anyway.

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by lex92

[Cyber-Raga]

If anything people should learn some fucking history to not repeat the same or at least similar mistakes in the present and future. 

[zephyralexxx]

"The girl with the luggage"... 2 pictures taken by a romanian photographer at the border between Ukraine and Romania, last night. 

 

"Girl in the red coat" from Schindler's List came to my mind, instantly. I felt sick all day... and still do! 

[runa]

16 minutes ago, Cyber-Raga said:

If anything people should learn some fucking history to not repeat the same or at least similar mistakes in the present and future. 

Totally agree. Unfortunately, it seems we never learn.

[lex92]

9 minutes ago, runa said:

Totally agree. Unfortunately, it seems we never learn.

We can simulate realities, build nuclear weapons, travel to space...but we never learned how to build a world order that can't easily be destroyed by just one person with a delusional mind. Actually we never learned how to build a peaceful and free world.

Edited February 25, 2022 by lex92

[air1975]

1 hour ago, lex92 said:

 

At the very moment there is people fighting for their human rights.

So what they need is our emphathy and moral support as all that is happening right now.

 

This is so so true. 

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, lex92 said:

At this point it makes no sense to analyze the historic events that lead Putin to invade a souvereign democrazy in europe.

At the very moment there is people fighting for their human rights.

So what they need is our emphathy and moral support as all that is happening right now.

Historians will analyze all that afterwards anyway.

 

You can have empathy and do other things at the same time. 

[lex92]

6 minutes ago, karbatal said:

You can have empathy and do other things at the same time. 

Yes, but you can't have emphathy with the people in Ukraine and relativate Putins decisions at the same time. 

[Jazzy Jan]

I watched an interesting interview yesterday with our former foreign affairs minister Julie Bishop. She met Putin at a conference and discussed the shooting down of the passenger plane by Russia that killed all civilian passengers. She said Putin was steely, hard, unapologetic, determined and spoke perfect English in person.  Also said he was passionate about wanting the USSR to return to it’s glory and thought it’s dismantling was the biggest travesty of the last century.  Extremely dangerous times ahead in Europe.