Spain...destroying themselves from the inside

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, promise to try said:

It reminds me our elections in 2001, when all the media were against the PNV, ibarretxe´s pnv.we saw it as a war between as and spain. sometimes you don´t need propaganda, you only need the adversary to gome a little bit too strong

I don't mind of people vote nationalism but realise that the independence right now is impossible. I mean, ERC has always been independentist, but has never embarassed itself as it has now. They can win, form a Government and work "to make Catalonia great again" and whatever. They already have independence in Education, Health, Security and many other areas. Let's call a spade a spade: the only matter where Catalonia doesnt' have independence is the MONEY. They try to desguise all this as some kind of political dream but itis THE MONEY what is at stake. 

Although at the path that Catalonia is going this past year, maybe in the future they will get money from other regions, such as Aragon or La Rioja  

Maybe in the future the EU has evolved and regions can directly decide to depend completely from Brussels. But right now, what is it to negociate? 

[karbatal]

By the way, the most complete poll, a compendium from 10.000 different simulations based on surveys is published by El Pais. They got right Trump and Brexit. And they're giving the victory to Inés Arrimadas (C) by a mere 1%  but the sum of seats would be for independence by a 2%. 

[runa]

Can't wait to see the result... that's 50-50....

[Je5u5]

7 hours ago, karbatal said:

By the way, the most complete poll, a compendium from 10.000 different simulations based on surveys is published by El Pais. They got right Trump and Brexit. And they're giving the victory to Inés Arrimadas (C) by a mere 1%  but the sum of seats would be for independence by a 2%. 

That would be delicious. Having someone born in Andalucia winning.

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, Je5u5 said:

That would be delicious. Having someone born in Andalucia winning.

Well, remember Carod Rovira, who started all this mess with his Estatut?  He's born in Teruel

 

[karbatal]

So Inés Arrimadas wins but nationalists + independentists have majority.  

MESS

And the far left extremist CUP is the key with their 4 seats.  They've advanced that they will only support that coalition if independence is declared again.  

What a mess of a Parliament!  

 

[promise to try]

well, everybody should be happry, right????? the tatcher friendly pro spain people have the most voted political party, the pro referendum have most of the votes...but PP nearly disappear!!!

[promise to try]

so no what?? puijdemont president again??? 155 again??? until they win??

[promise to try]

this is so 2001 in the basque country, all the powers in spain against PNV because they said it was ETA...

[karbatal]

Well they can very happily rule and make Catalonia great again.  Only if they break the law the Spanish Government will have to intervene again. It's in their hands.  

And they'd better hurry: Catalonia is one of the few regions where unemployment is rising, productivity is falling and where less new firms are being created.  Madrid already surpassed this past week Catalonia's gross product,  Zaragoza moves more goods in the airport than Barcelona... Aragon got double the funds for innovation industry than Catalonia... They've been wasting time these past three years BIG TIME. 

They decide where they focus. 

[Je5u5]

Thing is the independists were not even able to get 50% of the votes even if they have more seats. So even if they have more power they represent a minority of people.

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, Je5u5 said:

Thing is the independists were not even able to get 50% of the votes even if they have more seats. So even if they have more power they represent a minority of people.

Even if they got more than 50%, a decision that would affect several future generations should be based at least in 80% of the population. That's why I still don't understand how there was not a law that would have stopped Brexit, because leaving the UK with only a 51% of the majority is simply unfair. 

[elijah]

1 hour ago, karbatal said:

Well they can very happily rule and make Catalonia great again.  Only if they break the law the Spanish Government will have to intervene again. It's in their hands.  

And they'd better hurry: Catalonia is one of the few regions where unemployment is rising, productivity is falling and where less new firms are being created.  Madrid already surpassed this past week Catalonia's gross product,  Zaragoza moves more goods in the airport than Barcelona... Aragon got double the funds for innovation industry than Catalonia... They've been wasting time these past three years BIG TIME. 

They decide where they focus. 

Well, finally some good news for the other regions of Spain. Hope all of them prosper to the level of Catalonia so that they stop whining they are being robbed. Being greedy is never cute.

[karbatal]

26 minutes ago, elijah said:

Well, finally some good news for the other regions of Spain. Hope all of them prosper to the level of Catalonia so that they stop whining they are being robbed. Being greedy is never cute.

Well, many people are pessimistic about the effect of this Catalonia mess in the rest of Spain. I don't know much about economy, but maybe investors think Spain now is through some serious inestability and we get troubles getting financiation. Draghi's support on national debts is coming to an end and the second the European Central Bank stops being the main buyer of our national debt, our risk rate can scalate again as it happened four years ago and get the country in a serious situation. 

But me, being completly unaware of bigger economic movements, I'm happy that other regions are getting a bit better. The more equal the territory is, the less we would depend on other regions and they can keep their sacred money if they want. 

[runa]

If they did a real referendum they woukdn't be in that mess. 

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, runa said:

If they did a real referendum they woukdn't be in that mess. 

Yes,  but it is illegal and only demanded by a tiny minority of Spaniards.  It is illegal because the Constitution voted and approved by an overwhelming majority of Spaniards,  including the people of Catalonia, says that.  

But of course some minorities feel they have the right to change laws to answer their desires.  And if they aren't,  then they get angry,  first with Spain and later with the whole EU.  

[promise to try]

Just now, Je5u5 said:

Thing is the independists were not even able to get 50% of the votes even if they have more seats. So even if they have more power they represent a minority of people.

but the people that are in favour of a legal referendum are more than 50%. anyways, 47-53 or whatever, they have to talk and decide something good for all of them

[karbatal]

12 hours ago, promise to try said:

but the people that are in favour of a legal referendum are more than 50%. anyways, 47-53 or whatever, they have to talk and decide something good for all of them

Talk about what?  They can't have more autonomy. 

The only thing they still don't control as if they were an independent country is... 

MONEY!  

[promise to try]

Just now, karbatal said:

Talk about what?  They can't have more autonomy. 

The only thing they still don't control as if they were an independent country is... 

MONEY!  

I don´t know about the catalans wanting only more money.Anyways, they can discuss it too. But thinking more about how people would think in the basque country, for example a person in the PNV, they can talk about always having a person from the basque government in europe where/when they are talking a decition that involves the basque country (and both the central and the basque delegate must agree in what they are going to say), they can give more power to the police so they can have access to the info that the europol has... is what here is called the teory of the two keys: you need two keys to open a box. One is in the spanish govenrmnet´s hands, other in the basque´s. And both have to agree to open the box (to change a law that involves the basque country).

 

I don´t know, they really can try it

[karbatal]

1 hour ago, promise to try said:

I don´t know about the catalans wanting only more money.Anyways, they can discuss it too. But thinking more about how people would think in the basque country, for example a person in the PNV, they can talk about always having a person from the basque government in europe where/when they are talking a decition that involves the basque country (and both the central and the basque delegate must agree in what they are going to say), they can give more power to the police so they can have access to the info that the europol has... is what here is called the teory of the two keys: you need two keys to open a box. One is in the spanish govenrmnet´s hands, other in the basque´s. And both have to agree to open the box (to change a law that involves the basque country).

 

I don´t know, they really can try it

They already have someone in Brussels speaking for the Basque Country and Catalonia. It is called the Committee of the Regions,  a EU organ that is consulted by law by the Parliament and the Commission.  

If any region wants to have a more direct representation that would be very unfair for the other regions in the EU,  I guess.  

About Europol... the Basque Country Police is already part. Soon will be the Mossos. I don't think people is voting independence for something like that,  frankly. 

[karbatal]

 By the way,  speaking of the Police, the situation is so DISTORTED AND ABSURD AND LAUGHABLE that only two months after the worst terrorist attack ever happened in Catalonia,  not a single political party spoke during the campaign about SECURITY.  That says a lot how everything has gone to the pits there. 

[promise to try]

Just now, karbatal said:

 By the way,  speaking of the Police, the situation is so DISTORTED AND ABSURD AND LAUGHABLE that only two months after the worst terrorist attack ever happened in Catalonia,  not a single political party spoke during the campaign about SECURITY.  That says a lot how everything has gone to the pits there. 

because the elections were about the process or the 155.but yes, it seems that the attack never happened!

[karbatal]

11 minutes ago, promise to try said:

because the elections were about the process or the 155.but yes, it seems that the attack never happened!

It's sad. It's as if nothing happened. 

[spotlight]

On 2017-12-22 at 1:34 PM, runa said:

If they did a real referendum they woukdn't be in that mess. 

We had two real référendums here and they did no favours to the ppl of Québec either. The one I remember back in ‘95 was just as messy. Back in ‘94, when the PARTI QUÉBÉCOIS got elected (the pro séparatiste party for those here who don’t know) Montréal, Québec’s economic engine, was showing clear signs that it was stalling.. Even before they were elected, polls were placing The PQ clearly ahead of the Other party and the Canadian dollar would take a nose dive. Once the PQ was in power, Montréal went through a tough economic period. I remember walking through downtown Montréal and all the shops boutiques etc were all suddenly vacant. “À Louer” signs as far as the eye could see. Head offices were moving west to Toronto and ppl were losing jobs daily as a result. A few of years later, things did get better but the damage was already done. I’m sure things will get back to normal economically in Catalonia eventually as soon as things simmer down politically. 

[promise to try]

I understand that: but still, I think a referendum is necesary both in catalonia and in the basque country. If not, a huge part of the population, me included, will never accept the laws as "our law".I understand the consecuences too, if the process hasn´t been talked a lot. I mean, I think there should be a referendum in the basque country, but knowing that our society has different feeling about the different countries (Spain-France-navarre with us-navarre without us...) and our relation.so I would have cooked everything before between political parties and other groups of our society.

[promise to try]

Just now, spotlight said:

We had two real référendums here and they did no favours to the ppl of Québec either. The one I remember back in ‘95 was just as messy. Back in ‘94, when the PARTI QUÉBÉCOIS got elected (the pro séparatiste party for those here who don’t know) Montréal, Québec’s economic engine, was showing clear signs that it was stalling.. Even before they were elected, polls were placing The PQ clearly ahead of the Other party and the Canadian dollar would take a nose dive. Once the PQ was in power, Montréal went through a tough economic period. I remember walking through downtown Montréal and all the shops boutiques etc were all suddenly vacant. “À Louer” signs as far as the eye could see. Head offices were moving west to Toronto and ppl were losing jobs daily as a result. A few of years later, things did get better but the damage was already done. I’m sure things will get back to normal economically in Catalonia eventually as soon as things simmer down politically. 

do you think this happened as a natural way, or were the financial/political powers in favour of a united canada behind it?

[karbatal]

48 minutes ago, promise to try said:

I understand that: but still, I think a referendum is necesary both in catalonia and in the basque country. If not, a huge part of the population, me included, will never accept the laws as "our law".I understand the consecuences too, if the process hasn´t been talked a lot. I mean, I think there should be a referendum in the basque country, but knowing that our society has different feeling about the different countries (Spain-France-navarre with us-navarre without us...) and our relation.so I would have cooked everything before between political parties and other groups of our society.

I don't agree.  

All investment efforts have gone there for decades. And now people there want to go with all the profits thinking they are richer because they're better,  which is not the case. 

In the end this is a case of lack of solidarity mixed with a feeling of superiority: Catalán and Basque people work hard while Spain dances flamenco,  sleeps siesta and eats paella.  Well,  THAT'S A LIE. 

[karbatal]

If there's ever a referendum,  there has to be a divorce and I would demand something like Brexit: if you want to go,  you pay back dozens of billions as a concept of investment made.  And that only for Spain,  because Brussels would demand Catalonia or Basque Country several billions more for the funds given there.  

In the end it seems there are a lot of deluded Theresa Mays in Catalonia and Basque Country who think that the world evolves around their wishes. 

[elijah]

1 hour ago, karbatal said:

I don't agree.  

All investment efforts have gone there for decades. And now people there want to go with all the profits thinking they are richer because they're better,  which is not the case. 

In the end this is a case of lack of solidarity mixed with a feeling of superiority: Catalán and Basque people work hard while Spain dances flamenco,  sleeps siesta and eats paella.  Well,  THAT'S A LIE. 

couldn't agree more: lack of solidarity mixed with a feeling of superiority is exactly right. Both Catalans and Basques (the latter not so much lately) are bunch of whiny greedy bitches that want "their" money not shared with anyone. Well shouldn't solidarity be a guiding principle not only in Spain but also in EU? Because the firms that employ Basques/Catalans benefit greatly from the open markets of Spain/EU. Not only that: the investments of Spain/EU. And yes, if they want independence they should be asked to return at least half of the milliards invested in them so that they could be the present-day "superior" citizens of Spain.

[promise to try]

Just now, karbatal said:

In the end this is a case of lack of solidarity mixed with a feeling of superiority: Catalán and Basque people work hard while Spain dances flamenco,  sleeps siesta and eats paella.

no!!!! but it´s true that the idea of people in andalucia being lazy and being paid just to do nothing it´s quite common. BUt it´s not spain, is andalucia