Jump to content

New war in Europe, courtesy of Putin


Recommended Posts

I’m sure they are aware how easily this social media can be used to influence and manipulate people. 
Plus it’s super annoying for pictures of havoc and death to be distributed around the world, including Russia. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Cyber-Raga said:

I’m sure they are aware how easily this social media can be used to influence and manipulate people. 
Plus it’s super annoying for pictures of havoc and death to be distributed around the world, including Russia. 

Yes, they have the largest internet troll factory in the world 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/1/2022 at 11:37 PM, air1975 said:

The argument about NATO expansion does not seem to take into account that those independent countries CHOOSE to apply for NATO membership. 

I know. It's tiresome at this point. It's the choice of a FREE nation.

My friend's parents are trying to flee Kiev, but her mother is too ill with cancer to move... it's fucking heatbreaking on so many levels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, acko said:

I know. It's tiresome at this point. It's the choice of a FREE nation.

My friend's parents are trying to flee Kiev, but her mother is too ill with cancer to move... it's fucking heatbreaking on so many levels.

😞

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, acko said:

I know. It's tiresome at this point. It's the choice of a FREE nation.

My friend's parents are trying to flee Kiev, but her mother is too ill with cancer to move... it's fucking heatbreaking on so many levels.

yes, I agree. But NATO should have thought about the consecuences of trying to have Rusia surrounded in its west borders.Of course Ucarine, modalvia, finland...should have the right to be in NATO, but NATO should have known better.Or maybe they also wanted a war, in this moment I don´t know. I mean, the arms industry needs wars to continue earning ,money...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, acko said:

I know. It's tiresome at this point. It's the choice of a FREE nation.

My friend's parents are trying to flee Kiev, but her mother is too ill with cancer to move... it's fucking heatbreaking on so many levels.

Heartbreaking. My aunt died of cancer a couple of years ago. To imagine for her living through a nightmare like the current one on top of this awful disease…I can’t even go there. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, acko said:

 

My friend's parents are trying to flee Kiev, but her mother is too ill with cancer to move... it's fucking heatbreaking on so many levels.

And I´n really sorry to read this, I hope they are lucky.This is so cruel and unnecesary, shit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Chinese people have been Cheering on this invasion online, mocking Ukraine and praising Russia, and the CCP wants this... "

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/1/2022 at 9:24 PM, CzarnaWisnia said:

Then, as history has shown, the CIA and US intelligence agencies have many times over influenced the course of other countries' political destinies through various identifiable means (regime change activities). Ukraine has been in such a way influenced (in 2013 and 2014). I think there's more to know about this situation.


We are many people who have been pointing out the UN charter for decades now - to no avail. US and its super agressive attack organization NATO have ignored this countless of times.

This is the problem. When the “good guys” (in lack of a better word) ignore laws, international agreements, and laugh at anyone pointing this out, why anyone would follow it?

We cannot have a few being able to ignore international laws, because sooner or later everyone will. This is something we should clearly point out.

Yes, it is a fact that Putin/Russia is clearly ignoring the UN charter by waging a war of agression against a sovereign nation, but the US have also waged wars based on questionable pretexts many times before, varying from ousting governments by arming insurgences or directly bombing and destroying entire countries, killing millions in the name of profit, in fact they are doing it right now in Syria and Iraq for oil, not to mention supporting the medieval Saudi’s in ther illegal war in Yemen.

Clearly all of this mess is the lack of diplomacy and lack of cooler heads. The mutual respect and somewhat acceptance of each other that existed under the cold war has been exchanged with “we are right, we are the good guys, and now we will do whatever we want” mentality, specially coming from the West. THIS is the core mentality problem.

Imagine how easy it would have been to solve the Ukraine crisis. Imagine if NATO for once said that there is no plans to make Ukraine a member anytime soon (note: not excluding it, but for the sake of diplomacy stating they do not want this corrupt country as a member for now), after that EU only needed to pick up the phone and say “Hey Ukraine, please stop bombing the residents of the Donbass region, just follow the Minsk agreement you signed in 2015 and then there might be a EU membership in the near future for you!” - that is it. No war. No Russia losing its mind over the threat of NATO military bases on its border. Ukraine apply to enter EU and officialy declare itself military neutral. Problem solved. 40 years ago this is exactly what would have happened because back then diplomacy still existed, there were still cooler calmer heads looking sober at the situation and acting accordingly. Those people have been pushed aside. THIS is the core political problem.

Mix the two core problems i mention above and now we get the situation in Ukraine. From this perspective it is impossible to not understand Russia/Putin and US/Biden on the matter. But also to be very clear “understand” is not the same as “support”. I do not support this invasion, in my mind with this agression Putin blew the chances of diplomacy, but i can see where it is coming from and the mess we are in that are a direct result of years of neglect for diplomacy and the international rules by the major great powers. This needs to be addressed before its too late.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Gaudet said:

"Chinese people have been Cheering on this invasion online, mocking Ukraine and praising Russia, and the CCP wants this... "

 

 

Well the West has been utterly stupid these past 20 years turning a cruel and blood dictatorship into the second economy of the world. We even depend on China for our medical supplies. I have always found China a far most dangerous country than Russia and I have never understood why on earth that dictatorship was accepted.

 I really hope that all NATO countries stop making trades with China 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest CzarnaWisnia
8 hours ago, Nessie said:


We are many people who have been pointing out the UN charter for decades now - to no avail. US and its super agressive attack organization NATO have ignored this countless of times.

This is the problem. When the “good guys” (in lack of a better word) ignore laws, international agreements, and laugh at anyone pointing this out, why anyone would follow it?

We cannot have a few being able to ignore international laws, because sooner or later everyone will. This is something we should clearly point out.

Yes, it is a fact that Putin/Russia is clearly ignoring the UN charter by waging a war of agression against a sovereign nation, but the US have also waged wars based on questionable pretexts many times before, varying from ousting governments by arming insurgences or directly bombing and destroying entire countries, killing millions in the name of profit, in fact they are doing it right now in Syria and Iraq for oil, not to mention supporting the medieval Saudi’s in ther illegal war in Yemen.

Clearly all of this mess is the lack of diplomacy and lack of cooler heads. The mutual respect and somewhat acceptance of each other that existed under the cold war has been exchanged with “we are right, we are the good guys, and now we will do whatever we want” mentality, specially coming from the West. THIS is the core mentality problem.

Imagine how easy it would have been to solve the Ukraine crisis. Imagine if NATO for once said that there is no plans to make Ukraine a member anytime soon (note: not excluding it, but for the sake of diplomacy stating they do not want this corrupt country as a member for now), after that EU only needed to pick up the phone and say “Hey Ukraine, please stop bombing the residents of the Dombass region, just follow the Minsk agreement you signed in 2015 and then there might be a EU membership in the near future for you!” - that is it. No war. No Russia losing its mind over the threat of NATO military bases on its border. Ukraine apply to enter EU and officialy declare itself military neutral. Problem solved. 40 years ago this is exactly what would have happened because back then diplomacy still existed, there were still cooler calmer heads looking sober at the situation and acting accordingly. Those people have been pushed aside. THIS is the core political problem.

Mix the two core problems i mention above and now we get the situation in Ukraine. From this perspective it is impossible to not understand Russia/Putin and US/Biden on the matter. But also to be very clear “understand” is not the same as “support”. I do not support this invasion, in my mind with this agression Putin blew the chances of diplomacy, but i can see where it is coming from and the mess we are in that are a direct result of years of neglect for diplomacy and the international rules by the major great powers. This needs to be addressed before its too late.

 

Yep. Though I think it's already too late. No one wants this war to continue really, but those who offer what I think are realistic solutions out of the situation are attacked as deeply wrong, mentally defective or ethically challenged, and what I think the current measures will do is prolong and worsen the immediate situation, and then worsen the future relations of the West and the East (many Eastern countries have held back their support, what they see is probably how the West can easily crush any one country's economy if they choose). Now is the time for propaganda, which is always what happens in any wartime (on both sides of the conflict). Also, I guess people are usually more inclined to think their own culture and country are good, acting for the good, and are more willing to have the opposition assumption of foreign countries and cultures. The various reactions to different wars by the media for instance is very telling.

economist.jpeg

Economist2.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest CzarnaWisnia

I know this is going to seem insane and unacceptable now, but I think this 2014 paper (published during the 2014 crisis) was quite prescient. I think this is what the end result will be, but it will happen through useless and catastrophic warfare.

Some analysts argue that the best way out of the crisis would be to split Ukraine between east and west

 

AS RUSSIAN president Vladimir Putin today pledged to use "all means" to protect Russian citizens in the east of Ukraine, the search for a non-military solution gained urgency.

Over the past week, Russian troops have occupied airports and surrounded Ukrainian military facilities in the Crimea region of Ukraine, where there is an ethnic Russian majority.

US and European officials insist that Russia should pull out of Crimea immediately; Russia claims it has a right to "defend" the region; and Ukraine has ordered a nationwide mobilisation of troops of in anticipation of combat.

With the threat of war a real possibility, some experts now argue that the only workable solution is to partition Ukraine, dividing the country between its pro-Russian east and its European-leaning west.

The case for partition

Daniel Hannan, writing in the Daily Telegraph, argues that separation is beginning to look "inevitable". That separation may come about in two possible ways: either through "paramilitary groups establishing local supremacy" or as a result of Russian intervention.

"If a partition is coming anyway," Hannan says, "might it not be better to take ownership of the process: to see that the border is decided peacefully and by referendum rather than by military occupation?"

If an agreement on partition can come without a war, it may be possible to avoid "another frozen conflict in which families are separated and the economy is wrecked," Hannan argues.

 

Where will the partition lie?

A number of commentators – including Max Fisher in the Washington Post – point to two maps that express the intimate relationship between ethnic and linguistic identity and political affiliation in Ukraine. The east of the country identifies as Russian-speaking and voted overwhelmingly for the pro-Russian Yanukovych in the 2010 presidential election. The western part of the country meanwhile, which is largely Ukrainian-speaking, voted for the comparatively pro-European Yulia Tymoshenko.

image.png

According to Fisher, the unrest in Ukraine is "a function of [this] demographic divide that Ukrainian politics have never really bridged".

Writing for TheWeek.co.uk, Crispin Black argues that rather than defending Ukraine's territorial sovereignty, Britain should open the case for partition: "Instead of huffing and puffing about the inviolability of very recently arrived at and clearly unworkable borders in Ukraine, William Hague should use our diplomatic muscle to promote the idea of partition," Black says. "Let the people vote on which bloc they want to belong to. Putin might well agree."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. Blaming America and the west for Putin invading another country that he wants as part of the USSR again is ignoring the rights of citizens of Ukraine. Wanting to compromise and appease him. Treating Ukraine like a country to simply negotiate with a dictator over.  The sovereignty of a nation can’t be wiped out because one dictator decides to take it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/5/2022 at 8:36 PM, acko said:

I know. It's tiresome at this point. It's the choice of a FREE nation.

My friend's parents are trying to flee Kiev, but her mother is too ill with cancer to move... it's fucking heatbreaking on so many levels.

So heartbreaking 😢

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest CzarnaWisnia
3 minutes ago, Jazzy Jan said:

. Blaming America and the west for Putin invading another country that he wants as part of the USSR again is ignoring the rights of citizens of Ukraine. Wanting to compromise and appease him. Treating Ukraine like a country to simply negotiate with a dictator over.  The sovereignty of a nation can’t be wiped out because one dictator decides to take it. 

Sovereignty of nations is a cardinal principle in ideal terms, but in practical terms it is contingent on surrounding forces (minor nations are caught in the sphere of influence of stronger states) and on internal forces (some peoples see themselves as nations and claim sovereignty for themselves, like in Spain with Catalonia, Quebec in Canada in the past, and like Eastern Ukraine: see the violence with which the Spanish state squashed the Catalans' referendum).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CzarnaWisnia said:

I know this is going to seem insane and unacceptable now, but I think this 2014 paper (published during the 2014 crisis) was quite prescient. I think this is what the end result will be, but it will happen through useless and catastrophic warfare.

Some analysts argue that the best way out of the crisis would be to split Ukraine between east and west

 

AS RUSSIAN president Vladimir Putin today pledged to use "all means" to protect Russian citizens in the east of Ukraine, the search for a non-military solution gained urgency.

Over the past week, Russian troops have occupied airports and surrounded Ukrainian military facilities in the Crimea region of Ukraine, where there is an ethnic Russian majority.

US and European officials insist that Russia should pull out of Crimea immediately; Russia claims it has a right to "defend" the region; and Ukraine has ordered a nationwide mobilisation of troops of in anticipation of combat.

With the threat of war a real possibility, some experts now argue that the only workable solution is to partition Ukraine, dividing the country between its pro-Russian east and its European-leaning west.

The case for partition

Daniel Hannan, writing in the Daily Telegraph, argues that separation is beginning to look "inevitable". That separation may come about in two possible ways: either through "paramilitary groups establishing local supremacy" or as a result of Russian intervention.

"If a partition is coming anyway," Hannan says, "might it not be better to take ownership of the process: to see that the border is decided peacefully and by referendum rather than by military occupation?"

If an agreement on partition can come without a war, it may be possible to avoid "another frozen conflict in which families are separated and the economy is wrecked," Hannan argues.

 

Where will the partition lie?

A number of commentators – including Max Fisher in the Washington Post – point to two maps that express the intimate relationship between ethnic and linguistic identity and political affiliation in Ukraine. The east of the country identifies as Russian-speaking and voted overwhelmingly for the pro-Russian Yanukovych in the 2010 presidential election. The western part of the country meanwhile, which is largely Ukrainian-speaking, voted for the comparatively pro-European Yulia Tymoshenko.

image.png

According to Fisher, the unrest in Ukraine is "a function of [this] demographic divide that Ukrainian politics have never really bridged".

Writing for TheWeek.co.uk, Crispin Black argues that rather than defending Ukraine's territorial sovereignty, Britain should open the case for partition: "Instead of huffing and puffing about the inviolability of very recently arrived at and clearly unworkable borders in Ukraine, William Hague should use our diplomatic muscle to promote the idea of partition," Black says. "Let the people vote on which bloc they want to belong to. Putin might well agree."

 


The partitioning is not insane, it had been in the cards among pro-russian ukraine politicians for many years, but the maidan revolution in 2014 literally blew this possibility forcing a unified western government for all of Ukraine, that pro-euro insurgence ignited a civil war in the east against the russian separatists of the major industrial hubs of the Donbass region. This frozen conflict has never been resolved.

Now with Putin’s army sieging Kiev is hardly an option keeping this capital city as the center of an unified Ukraine. Judging by the course of this war i believe that Lviv would be the capital of West Ukraine and Kharkiv would be the capital of East Ukraine, the city of Kiev would be divided east and west between the Dniepre river.

If Russia goes all the way to Lviv it would face a completely hostile ground and a bloody guerrila warfare for decades, and if it remotely suceedes in controlling the west of Ukraine it would still have plenty of NATO bases positioned on the border with Poland, Slovakia, Romania and Hungary. It is not logical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Im sure someone could try to justify Hitlers invasion of Poland and other lands he took too, old germania land and other pap

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, dollhouse said:

Im sure someone could try to justify Hitlers invasion of Poland and other lands he took too, old germania land and other pap

Yeah, it was USA's fault. 

And when I read stuff like "the city of Kiev would be divided east and west between the Dniepre river.", I just can't help myself but roll my eyes, :rolleyes:. Some will never learn from HISTORY and prefer to live in their fantasies. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jazzy Jan said:

. Blaming America and the west for Putin invading another country that he wants as part of the USSR again is ignoring the rights of citizens of Ukraine. Wanting to compromise and appease him. Treating Ukraine like a country to simply negotiate with a dictator over.  The sovereignty of a nation can’t be wiped out because one dictator decides to take it. 

Agree 100%
 

One thing is to take all parts into account when a conflict is brewing, to find a political solution. But once innocent people are being killed and displaced and their country is being destroyed there is only one to blame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CzarnaWisnia said:

Sovereignty of nations is a cardinal principle in ideal terms, but in practical terms it is contingent on surrounding forces (minor nations are caught in the sphere of influence of stronger states) and on internal forces (some peoples see themselves as nations and claim sovereignty for themselves, like in Spain with Catalonia, Quebec in Canada in the past, and like Eastern Ukraine: see the violence with which the Spanish state squashed the Catalans' referendum).

Are you comparing policemen beating innocent civilians in Catalonia with what is happening in Ukraine? Are you deliberately stupid?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and Russia just released their equivalent of the axis of evil, declared either unfriendly or evil, which means all trading with companies from these countries need special permits, so much for those (also from the Putin goverment side) who declared sanctions will not do any big harm to Russia.

The list does include obviously Ukraine, but also Canada, Japan, US, UK all of the EU, but also countries like Taiwan, Singapore, Monaco, San Marino, Switzerland, Montenegro, Norway. 

Oh and while people share plans to divide Ukraine (BTW has anybody also considered dividing the US, France, Germany, the UK, Italy, Spain too based on political preference, last time I checked blue and red states did show quite a huge difference in voting pattern too if we go by recent elections or go 10 years back, or does that only serve as argument for treating "irrelevant" Eastern European Countries such as Georgia, Moldova, Bosnia-Herzegovina and all Baltic states)

Also the 2004 election was only possible after the Orange revolution after Yanukovych declared himself the winner of the second round through electoral fraud and it had to be redone, also worth mentioning his supporters poisoned his main opponent in this election campaign. I assume that is the revote of the second round.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hillary’s emails are to be blamed. 
 

No seriously, @Jazzy Jan is right: accusing the west for Russia invading a sovereign country for not wanting the Russian Life is very rich. 
What’s next? Taiwan should stop whining about being potentially run over by China? Maybe Germany and Russia can strike a deal to divide Poland again like in the good old days? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Cyber-Raga said:

Hillary’s emails are to be blamed. 
 

No seriously, @Jazzy Jan is right: accusing the west for Russia invading a sovereign country for not wanting the Russian Life is very rich. 
What’s next? Taiwan should stop whining about being potentially run over by China? Maybe Germany and Russia can strike a deal to divide Poland again like in the good old days? 

Being in a country like Spain that was considered by ISIS a land to conquer because we were Muslims for 700 years I am frankly tired of those opening History books to draw new lines in countries :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...