Why do we love to hate Madonna?

[Andra]

Why do we love to hate Madonna?

By: Richard S. He on Thu 25th Jun, 2015

RICHARD S. HE questions our love/hate relationship with pop’s first lady ahead of Madonna’s first Australian tour in 23 year.

Madonna was never a bigger pariah than in 1993, the last time she toured Australia. Her infamous Sex book had just given an enormous middle finger to the prudishness of ‘90s pop culture. Equally pretentious and tongue-in-cheek, it was a coffee table art book that had no place in most respectable living rooms. Of course, you didn’t actually have to read it – the point was just that it existed. But at the same time her complex, contradictory Erotica record suffered for it, reduced to Sex’s same hypersexual veneer. She’d become too good a provocateur. That punk rock incarnation of Madonna would feel right at home in 2015, now that Sex has paved the way for everyone from Miley Cyrus to Kim Kardashian. Popstars who weren’t alive for ‘Like a Prayer’’s release revere her. So why does it still feel like the general public can’t wait to prematurely wheel her to the retirement home?

Madonna’s been called “desperate”, “calculated”, and much worse – usually by straight white men – ever since she rolled off the 1984 VMAs stage singing ‘Like a Virgin’ in a wedding dress. If it wasn’t true then, it’s even less true now. Nothing she did, not even Sex, was ever just bald-faced provocation. Now, Madonna has nothing left to prove except, ironically, that she still has something left to prove. No genre has a shorter memory than pop, where you’re only as good as your last move or you’re a flop. She can’t help being compared to not only all the younger, hungrier popstars in her wake but her entire three-decade legacy, like an albatross around her neck.

Once upon a time, all publicity was good publicity. But nowadays, you risk becoming a celebrity first, musician second – doubly so for women, who can’t afford not to be image-conscious whether or not sexuality is part of their art. Just as Janet Jackson, not Justin Timberlake, took the fall for that Super Bowl incident, so too Madonna suffers for planting one on Drake at Coachella. Drake’s the sad clown of rap, but it’s Madonna who’s martyring herself for our collective online amusement. Being a popstar in 2015 means constantly generating memes, Instagrams, GIFable moments – all while running the risk of becoming a punchline yourself.

“Bitch I’m Madonna” on the Tonight Show is easily the best thing she’s done this whole album cycle, a perfect take on her raucous live show. Last week’s official video transports that same freewheeling energy to an opulent New York penthouse, but in the two months since Fallon, Taylor Swift’s already changed the game. The bigger-budget, higher-concept ‘Bad Blood’ is Taylor’s #squad in video form; it got Kendrick Lamar his first number one single in comically absurd fashion. It’s one thing to get all those people in the same room; it’s another entirely to phone in cameos from half of TIDAL’s Illuminati. It could’ve been her take on Beyoncé’s ‘7/11’ instead, it feels like “fun” in quotation marks. Pop’s built on that thin line between influence and straight-up appropriation, but all that matters is how effortlessly you pull it off. And Madonna, she of zero-percent body fat, never half-asses anything, right?

So what went wrong?

In 2015, there’s increasingly less separation between the mainstream and underground. Lorde went from ‘Royals’ to fronting Nirvana in under a year; pop is unquestionably art once again. It feels like the biggest moment for the counterculture since the sixties, but in fast-forward, with laptops instead of guitars. Madonna’s method was always to find new sounds and producers, and bring them above ground. 1998’s Ray of Light was the first real electronica record by an existing popstar, but what made it truly great was how she rebuilt herself around William Orbit’s production. But today’s bedroom producers are perfectly content to stay underground. Seapunk, witch house, trap rave, bubblegum bass – scenes are born and die faster than you can rope in a collaborator to work on a major label’s plodding release schedule. Madonna was making house music before Disclosure were even born, and they couldn’t even make time for her! And the obvious hitmakers – Diplo, Kanye, Avicii – seem to be saving their best tracks for themselves.

“Fuck ‘ageing gracefully’ – Madonna can age however she wants”

Madonna albums used to be totally distinct from each other. You could name them like Friends episodes – the ‘90s R&B one, the ‘70s disco one, the folktronica one. Her latest album, this year’s Rebel Heart, could be all of them at once. It’s bursting at the seams with collaborators, but it’s both too sprawling and too familiar. Don’t call it an identity crisis – it’s deliberately loose… and yet. On the eve of her first Australian tour in 23 years, her live show’s where she remains most herself. But with ticket prices ranging from $99 to $2000, she’s largely preaching to the converted. Madonna was the ultimate crossover artist; now, the most surprising move she could make would be to cross back out of her own fanbase.

Madonna’s never indulged nostalgia for her own work. That’s doubly admirable in 2015, now that the ‘80s revival’s lasted longer than the actual ‘80s. But its side effect is a fragmented legacy. Everyone agrees on Prince and Michael Jackson, even if no one really listens to their work past 1996. But there’s no such consensus on Madonna, a divisive figure even at the best of times. Maybe “pop” doesn’t do her justice.

Madonna released Ray of Light at 40, Confessions on a Dancefloor at 47. Those albums alone give the lie to the notion that pop’s a young woman’s game. Fuck “ageing gracefully”. Madonna can age however she wants, especially if the alternative means being put out to pasture in a Vegas residency. But what’s agelessness worth when the pop landscape shifts every day? She and Janet Jackson single-handedly created the modern popstar. Now everyone’s a provocateur, auteur, aspiring style icon. Madonna used to be a big fish in a small pond – now pop is an ocean. It’s like we’re living in all possible futures at once. Don’t ask if Madonna’s still got it. Bitch, we’re all Madonna.

http://m.fasterlouder.com.au/features/43147/Why-do-we-love-to-hate-Madonna

[loowee]

I feels like yesterday when she was 47 rocking that leotard and now she's already approaching 60. God please let this woman be healthy and happy and live as long as possible, and obviously continue to deliver great music.

[promise to try]

I feels like yesterday when she was 47 rocking that leotard and now she's already approaching 60. God please let this woman be healthy and happy and live as long as possible, and obviously continue to deliver great music.

I have the same feeling:CAODF was ten years ago??? no way!!!

[karbatal]

Great article. Love it.

[Wunderkind]

"Madonna was making house music before Disclosure were even born, and they couldn’t even make time for her! And the obvious hitmakers – Diplo, Kanye, Avicii – seem to be saving their best tracks for themselves."

So they are basically implying that Madonna simply gets tracks handed from her producers and records them. What a bunch of bullshit. Yet again an article that completely disregards her work as a writer and producer. I don't love to hate Madonna. But I hate stupid statements such as the above!

[Michael.]

Everyone agrees on Prince and Michael Jackson, even if no one really listens to their work past 1996. But there’s no such consensus on Madonna, a divisive figure even at the best of times. Maybe “pop” doesn’t do her justice.

She's been more successful then both of them yet somehow they get more respect and praise. I fucking hate that so much. She never gets the credit she deserves. Even when she does get a compliment it's always backhanded followed by some inane put down.

[Jazzy Jan]

I do tire of articles that down-play Madonna whilst also praising her. There seems to be a lot of these around, kind of like how many writers who identity as fans don't want to give her the full credit she deserves. Comparing her to Michael Jackson and Prince and implying that she is not as respected and admired is wrong to me as well. I am a huge Prince fan but his latest music does not sell a quarter of what Madonna does and Michael Jackson is not with us anymore, so of course he is now not going to get criticised. I am positive that Madonna will be the seen as the bench-mark of all pop superstars in the future. She stayed on top and has influenced virtually every female pop star since. They keep mentioning her as well - any star would kill for her influence and longevity as a pop superstar.

[Jazzy Jan]

Another article on Madonna - like this one a lot better

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/07/dear_madonna_keep_fighting_the.html

[karbatal]

This one is a incredibly positive article. Are you on pot or something? Or do you simply want an article where they jerk off and cum on Madonna's pic? Get real, this is accurate and good.

[Guest bluejean]

It's a dumb question. The answer to the question is ageism. Pure and simple. I read some of the YouTube comments for Bitch I'm Madonna and all the haters are OBSESSED with her age. That's all they have to say. Alot of the music she is doing, if someone younger released it it would be a hit.

[Guest bluejean]

The thing about it is she COULD give herself an image makeover and start "acting her age" and she'd probably get more respect from mainstream audiences. But that would be a major let down to most of us real fans. And to herself.

[Mmmmm]

^^ She did in marriage but people were still complaining, they wanted the outrageous Madonna! She can never win with these losers, fuck em!

There has always been long ass essays good and bad since the very start, this is nothing new.

[Mmmmm]

Another article on Madonna - like this one a lot better

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/07/dear_madonna_keep_fighting_the.html

Love!

[Guest eroticerotic]

i'm not sure how to sum it up in a word but, the way humans have been conditioned is so destructive, we are basically taught to just do and believe things without doing research and to then just repeat what is heard and seen, like children; so, when madonna or anyone with the same personality comes and challenges those comfort zones most of us are taught to cling on to, people react defensively because it is all they know... and most people are not taught to challenge themselves, or have self esteem, really.

i think they love to hate her because she makes them think,

[acko]

people still can't figure her out.

& it's 2015.

[nemo64]

^ and it frustrates them that they can't!!

Another article on Madonna - like this one a lot better

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/07/dear_madonna_keep_fighting_the.html

Love this. I guess you "got real" and found this to share! Thanks, hon.

[Nikki]

another one

of course they are ignorant to the fact that madonna is one of the only famous people who stands up against gypsies and even made a speech about them to support them in romania

im so tired of people trying to make her seem racist. even starting campaigns not to play vogue anymore. I'm sick of it, its not just a few hundred people doing this. thousands of people are reposting shit like this

we need some fans on tumblr with a lot of influence who set the record straight. because those generations now on tumblr are gonna "rule the world" in a few years and be in charge. i don't want people to see madonna as a racist & user of other cultures when I'm 50. FUCK THAT. people need to be informed. madonna fans need to stand up & inform people because they really have NO clue

[Guest Medoner]

people are butthurt about every fucking thing nowadays

[billiejean]

I feels like yesterday when she was 47 rocking that leotard and now she's already approaching 60. God please let this woman be healthy and happy and live as long as possible, and obviously continue to deliver great music.

Crazy isn't it? Life is so strange and fast. I think Madonna is changing the game when it comes to age though. Yes, Cher, Grace Jones are doing it also, but Madonna is still compared to the stars of now, despite not getting alot of radio love she's still modern and out there. Age isn't much of an issue for her. Hopefully she's going to stay healthy and happy for years to come and go out like Bette Davis, still working til the end (if she wants to of course).

TUMBLR loathes Madonna, and it's annoying, because they're just following each other. You have to think that these social justice warriors aren't people thinking for themselves, they are just the tumblr crowd. There are so many posts on tumblr full of bullshit that have 100,000 notes of people going 'OMG. REBLOG THIS NOW. or 'WOW, THAT IS SO TRUE. FUCK'... until someone reblogs and posts a logical response absolutely debunking the original post, making all these note seekers look like idiots. It's embarrasing.

[Roland Barthes]

BUCHAREST, Romania — Romania's self-styled King of the Gypsies praised Madonna on Wednesday for using her "Sticky & Sweet" world tour to speak out on behalf of Gypsies.

Last week, Madonna drew international attention by saying during a concert in Bucharest that widespread discrimination against eastern Europe's Gypsies, also known as Roma, should end. Thousands of fans responded by booing her.

"Madonna is the only international personality to have raised the problem of discrimination against the Roma in Europe," Florin Cioaba said in an interview with Agerpres, Romania's national news agency. Cioaba is one of the nation's best known Gypsy public figures. He gained the unofficial title King of all Gypsies from his father, Ion Cioaba, when he died in 1997.

On Wednesday, Cioaba said from his Transylvanian city of Sibiu that he would send Madonna an award carved in gold.

"I have never given one of these before. ... It's because Madonna is a fighter for Roma rights in Europe," he was quoted as saying.

"What Madonna did means a lot to us, it amounts to everything that Roma organizations have done all over Europe" to highlight the problems that Gypsies face, Cioaba said.

Earlier Wednesday, two Americans — a Hindu and a rabbi — urged Madonna to take up the cause of Gypsies in Europe.

Rajan Zed, president of the Universal Society of Hinduism, and Rabbi Jonathan B. Freirich said Madonna could be "effective" in focusing public opinion on the problems faced by Gypsies. The two men — both of whom work in Nevada — said the "Roma issue should be one of the highest priorities of the human rights agenda of Europe."

Zed and Freirich have both spoken out on behalf of Europe's Roma population before.

Romania has the largest number of Roma in Europe, with the population as high as 2 million. Human rights advocates say Gypsies probably suffer more humiliation and endure more discrimination than any other people on the continent.

The nomadic ethnic group lives mostly in southern and eastern Europe, and the European Union's Fundamental Rights Agency has said Gypsies face "overt discrimination" in housing, health care and education.

They often lack the official identification needed to get decent jobs.

Cioaba gained international attention in 2003 when he served as a minister during a ceremony that married his 12-year-old daughter to a 15-year-old Gypsy boy in an arranged marriage.

The wedding made headlines after Cioaba's daughter, Ana Maria, stormed out of the church.

The EU envoy to Romania at the time, Baroness Emma Nicholson, demanded that the couple be separated and said that if that wasn't done Romania could jeopardize its efforts at the time to join the European Union.

Cioaba initially protested, saying Gypsies should be allowed to follow their own customs, but he later acquiesced and the couple were separated. Until then, arranged Gypsy marriages between teenagers were relatively common, but not legally recognized.

The legal age for marriage in Romania is 18, with 16 year olds allowed to marry with parental consent.

[VogueMusic]

TUMBLR loathes Madonna, and it's annoying, because they're just following each other. You have to think that these social justice warriors aren't people thinking for themselves, they are just the tumblr crowd. There are so many posts on tumblr full of bullshit that have 100,000 notes of people going 'OMG. REBLOG THIS NOW. or 'WOW, THAT IS SO TRUE. FUCK'... until someone reblogs and posts a logical response absolutely debunking the original post, making all these note seekers look like idiots. It's embarrasing.

THIS is tumblr/SJW-ism in a nutshell. Nailed it.

That being said, you can avoid a lot of that on Tumblr. Just don't follow those blogs, and don't actively seek out those people. it's not too hard.

[nick00]

Glad people from gypsy communities are finally speaking up for themselves because they face so much discrimination, but they are targeting the wrong person.

[Jumpb4uthink]

I love this article. Madonna, wipe out the travesty that is called ageism.

THINK PIECES Anders Christian Madsen 25 August, 2015

live fast, die old: is ageism pop culture's final frontier?

The newest revolution could be older than you think.

"Old is the new young." It's been a favoured headline around the fashion media-scape this year, and like most trend declarations something of an empty promise. It's not that the pro-ageing efforts of the fashion houses of the world haven't been commendable: Joan Didion (80) for Céline, Joni Mitchell (71) for Saint Laurent, Sicilian grandmothers for Dolce & Gabbana, Iris Apfel (94) for Kate Spade, Cher (69) for Marc Jacobs, Donatella Versace (60) for Givenchy, and Madonna (57) for Versace. But despite the industry's zeitgeist alerts, outside of fashion this new age of old age seems to remain a mirage. In that real world, female-oriented ageism is alive and well, discreetly practised and rarely discussed. Russell Crowe wasn't entirely wrong when, earlier this year, he said that actresses over 40, who complain they can't get roles, still want to "play the ingénue, and can't understand why she's not being cast as the 21-year-old." What he doesn't understand is that few good parts are being written for women over 40. Similarly - excluding this year's campaigns - it's hard to find women of a certain age in most fashion magazines, and when they're featured in the tabloid media it always seems to be about 'looking good for their age'.

It's a youth-centric culture that teaches young people to fear age, disdain it, and worse, ridicule it. Indeed, we seem to be most comfortable with women over 50 when they're in one of those campaigns, styled in the context of a cool fashion brand like some theatrical character. And while the natural eccentricity that often comes with age should be hailed like that, the tribute appears to stop there. Once older women go out there on their own terms, they risk crossing society's elusive borderlines of what's considered 'age-appropriate'. Cases in point: the skimpy dressers of pop culture including Madonna, Mariah Carey, Sharon Stone, Kris Jenner, and Ivana Trump. 'Age appropriate' is a hate term of mine. Why? Because it belittles women older and wiser than the people who use it, as if they were teenage girls in sexually inappropriate hemlines and too much make-up. If I were a woman, I would hate to make it to 50 only to be told I couldn't wear whatever I felt good in. "Sexiness is about attitude and being able to be yourself without judgment from other people," Luella Bartley (41) of Hillier Bartley tells me. "As you get older you start to understand yourself and your body and what makes you feel sexy. It's just a shame that it's also the age when you get slapped down and told that ageing is ugly and lazy."

This year, Bartley founded the label Hillier Bartley alongside Katie Hillier (40), with the desire to create clothes for their own age group, i.e. clothes that women over forty want to wear rather than what anyone thinks they should be wearing. "You should be able to wear anything at any age. It's not so much putting rules on it, it's that you change," Bartley says. Society's criticism of middle-aged women in the spotlight isn't just aimed at appearances, but an overriding view of how they're meant to be behaving. A few months ago, I asked Marilyn Manson who he thought was relevant right now. "I'm kind of interested in this Madonna record," he said, referring to her then-upcoming album, Rebel Heart. "I'd say that's one record I'm looking forward to hearing when it comes to relevance. She looks hotter than ever. I still have a crush on Madonna and I would definitely fornicate with her." You could say it was one music industry 'elder' empathising with another, but knowing the astute mind of Manson - 46 and promoting his first critically acclaimed album in years - the loaded social importance of his statement went way beyond its sexual candy coating.

It struck a nerve with me, not least in the sad spring that followed where Madonna would be ridiculed by the media as a 50-something dinosaur, who falls off stages (Brit Awards), forces young singers to snog her (Drake), and - God forbid - dresses all sexy like she's in her twenties (always). Weeks after my conversation with Manson, Madonna put his quote on social media. She'd had some intense months, branding Radio 1 "ageist" after they refused to add her new single to their playlists. "The tracks are chosen on musical merit and their relevance to our young audience on a case-by-case basis," the station said in a statement, adding that they were still playing artists such as Sir Paul McCartney (73 - and male), who had of course just released a single with Rihanna (27) and Kanye West (38). "We've made so many advances in other areas - civil rights, gay rights - but ageism is still an area that's taboo," Madonna commented. "No one seems to want her to succeed," her producer Diplo (36) would later argue. "Her song Ghosttown was a guaranteed number one for anybody else, but she didn't get a fair shot. It already sucks to be a woman in the music industry, but to be a boss woman is even harder."

"Strong women are always perceived as being bitches or egomaniacs," Christopher Kane (32), one of fashion's most pro-age designers, tells me. "If it was me, it would be like, 'Oh he's so strong and powerful. He's a great guy.' And when is that going to stop? You get better with age. You do. Old women can wear mini skirts. The world is not going to fall apart." I can't help but wonder why pop culture's all-important stamp of relevance is exclusively given to young entertainers with no significant cultural or social achievements behind them, when Madonna, who revolutionised gender roles in popular culture, fronted post-70s feminism, and challenged the taboo of sex in the public forum, is being dismissed as 'try-hard' and 'desperate to be young'? (I won't give page time to the actual headlines, but it only takes a brief look at the internet to find them.) I debated Madonna endlessly with people this year, and the general public opinion shocked me. It echoed the words of comedienne Cecily Strong, who, in her roast of him during the Correspondents' Dinner in April, jokingly told President Obama: "You're a lot like Madonna. You've both given this country so much, but in, like, a year and a half, you gotta stop."

It was funny, but the sentiment was kind of dark. It's the popular notion that people's old age somehow pollutes their legacy, and that your age prohibits you from doing - or wearing or saying - certain things. Why wouldn't we want great musical talent to keep producing and performing for as long as they're alive, the way we expect- for instance- designers to? For Madonna, the answer sadly lies in the gender discrimination she's spent her career battling. When she appears in a Versace campaign, she's promoting Versace. When she appears on a red carpet, dressed in one of those daring outfits she's always worn, she's promoting herself. And that, apparently, makes her 'desperate'. "You should always dress or behave in a way, which is appropriate to your personal lifestyle," Sir Paul Smith (69) says when I ask him about Madonna. "I hate the idea of dressing 'young' because you think it makes you feel better, but it's basically her own personal ways of marketing. If Louise Bourgeois were naked you probably wouldn't say anything because she's an artist, whereas Madonna has always been so self-promotional you think it's inappropriate," he argues. "But if you look at Iggy Pop, he's still got a bare torso. So much of it is subjective."

Transfer that theory to one of pop culture's most vilified women, Kris Jenner (59) and it rings even truer. While the Kardashian matriarch is also criticised for dressing too young, the ageism targeted at her seems to primarily concern itself with her youthful outlook: her frivolous conversations with her children, her young friends, and her so-called 'toy boy', Corey Gamble (34). "It's not about being old, it's about the spirit," her friend, Balmain's Olivier Rousteing (29) tells me. "Kris, you can talk to her about pop culture, young people, old singers. She's really open-minded, she's always keeping her eyes on the new world, and she's not a follower. She knows who's going to be cool and who's not, and that's a matter of age, but she keeps young because she's surrounded by young people." When, in an episode of her TV show, Kim Kardashian told Jenner she was too old to join a pole dancing class, Jenner retorted, "What am I supposed to do, sit at home and knit?" For those who think women such as Jenner and Madonna should be acting more 'their age', it's a good question, really. Should Madonna shelve her raunchy dance tracks and take to sitting on a bar stool singing ballad medleys, fur-clad and bejewelled like some millennial Marlene Dietrich? She already did that, 25 years ago.

In a post-feminist world closer to equality than ever, classic views and expectations of age are no longer realistic. Unless you're a teenager, there is no such thing as acting or dressing your age, because society - much in the example of Kris Jenner - now gives us the privilege of spiritual agelessness. Youth, in other words, is no longer reserved for the young. Perhaps this is the reason society - still hopelessly obsessed with youth - gets down on those past 50, who refuse to swap their mini-skirts for a stretchy mum jean, like some valiant age rights group giving youth back the young. But isn't there enough youthfulness to go around? Surely, if the 20-somethings - so eager to be taken seriously - could borrow some wisdom from the 50-somethings, they'd jump at the chance? Instead of writing off people like Madonna as desperate to be relevant, we should rejoice in the fact that her youthful disposition will keep her around for longer so she can keep inspiring generations to come. In ancient times, if you wanted to learn something new, you went to the oldest person in the tribe - not the youngest. And perhaps that notion is part of the same fashion industry waves that put those 50-plus women in campaigns this year.

With social media exposing every inch of newness to the world on a daily basis, fashion - historically dependant on youth culture and underground scenes - could be struggling to actually identify emerging subcultures - if indeed they even exist anymore. And while we're all desperately stalking the 20-year-olds, trying to uncover some elusive trend, the real newness is being created slowly and confidently by those over 40, who've been there and done that, and are liberated from the crowd-pleasing trend sheep mentality that social media in many cases instils in young people today. Maybe people over 40 are the rebels of the 2010s: a counter-culture of a new world? According to Charlie Le Mindu (28), multi-artist and hairdresser-gone-couturier, that's already the case. "On old ladies, fashion is important," he says, referring to the real senior segment, much older than 50. "You know when you go to Knightsbridge and you see those old ladies? They don't give a s**t. They just wear everything, and they look like freaks again. They're a big inspiration to me. A young woman wearing the new cool stuff is not going to inspire me, because they all look the same."

The introduction of older women in fashion campaigns this year is a huge step towards to a less ageist social spirit, but it doesn't cancel out the need for a revolution. Celebrating middle-aged women in the spotlight shouldn't be a passing trend like they're some kind of showpiece pool sandal, 'so wrong it's right'. They should be celebrated alongside the young generation for whom they paved the way, forever relevant not just because of their icon status but because their talent, in tune with their minds, evolves into new levels of expression equally as relevant to pop culture as what they did in their youth. "Young rebellion is full of angst and energy, and older rebellion is a real kind of personal don't-give-a-s**t-about-what's-going-on," Luella Bartley says. "You become so comfortable in your skin that you just do what you want. Younger rebellion just feels so much more self-conscious. Older rebellion feels more real." At 57, Madonna's current age revolution might just be her greatest gift to future generations of women. And in the words of Marilyn Manson, she'll look hotter than ever doing it.

Full article @ https://i-d.vice.com/en_gb/article/live ... l-frontier

i-d.vice.com/en_gb/article/live-fast-die-old-ageism-and-pop-cultures-final-frontier

[Guest CzarnaWisnia]

It's a very interesting piece but something bothers me about this discussion:

In a post-feminist world closer to equality than ever, classic views and expectations of age are no longer realistic. Unless you're a teenager, there is no such thing as acting or dressing your age, because society - much in the example of Kris Jenner - now gives us the privilege of spiritual agelessness. Youth, in other words, is no longer reserved for the young. Perhaps this is the reason society - still hopelessly obsessed with youth - gets down on those past 50, who refuse to swap their mini-skirts for a stretchy mum jean, like some valiant age rights group giving youth back the young. But isn't there enough youthfulness to go around? Surely, if the 20-somethings - so eager to be taken seriously - could borrow some wisdom from the 50-somethings, they'd jump at the chance? Instead of writing off people like Madonna as desperate to be relevant, we should rejoice in the fact that her youthful disposition will keep her around for longer so she can keep inspiring generations to come. In ancient times, if you wanted to learn something new, you went to the oldest person in the tribe - not the youngest. And perhaps that notion is part of the same fashion industry waves that put those 50-plus women in campaigns this year.

I think most people here think the youthful way (if it is that) that Madonna dresses is fine, but if they saw the same clothes, let's say a miniskirt, on another 57 year old, let's say a fat woman with varicose veins, I'm sure many would find it ridiculous and comment on it. All the women mentioned in the article are rich, powerful and beautiful women. Does this debate only apply to these criteria? Is it only a pop culture phenomenon? What about the question of beauty? What if one isn't considered beautiful enough to wear these clothes, are they allowed to be "youthful" as much as others who are considered beautiful?

And what about that "privilege of spiritual agelessness". I'm sorry but that has NOTHING to do with whatever one is wearing. You can wear a grey suit and tie or a nun's habit and have a "young" spirit, meaning open to others and to ways of thinking (but that has nothing to do with being "young", it's just a convention of language). I don't think one should look to how people dress to infer anything about their "youthful spirit". I don't know, it all just seems so superficial to me, this whole debate. It's very "first world problems".

[VogueMusic]

I think that article is pretty damn amazing. Glad someone is writing stuff like that.

And I don't think it's "first world problems" whatsoever. The article is focusing on the ageism in the context of popular culture/celebrity, and makes that clear from the title...but the essence of what is being said transcends that, and certainly transcends anything like a "first world problem". The idea that as women age that they aren't worth shit anymore and need to 'pack it up' is a very real issue. It probably manifests itself in whole sorts of different ways depending on context and culture, and goes far beyond the more superficial level that the article may focus on, but no doubt it's a very real issue. And I don't think society's issues need to be pitted against each other.