5iVe Elements Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Perhaps Madonna has changed and is not so strict in keeping details of an upcoming album unlike before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Thank you. Off the bat, I can think of a couple of posters from Tribe who are also posting here, who drove out a number of members from that forum (including myself) because of their incessant negativity. They are hateful & I hope the mods don't allow them to spread their poison here as well. Don't be fooled by their occasional praise for Madonna. As for the producers, you're right, everyone including her fans underestimate Madonna's contribution. What have Patrick Leonard,Steve Bray, Shep Pettibone, William Orbit, Mirwais, Stuart Price done that can equal their work with Madonna. Nothing. All of her collaborators have given Madonna high praise for her abilities as a songwriter & producer but it seems that most people including her most ardent fans still don't give her her due credit. I couldn't keep on reading on that forum or even less post something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowjob Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 As long as it's not a rapper, I am happy :-) Avicci is quite cool, his music is decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Maybe she's more advanced in the process than we think.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ares1987 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 No more dance, honey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick00 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I have been listening to several tracks from Avicii for over a year and much of his music is good, and I could see why M would want to work with him. I think that whatever comes out of this collaboration will most likely be interesting and hopefully great even though M last two albums have polarized fans. I know that people remember the melt downs when American Life was released as well, and most long time fans appear to love most of the album now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat.Guy Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Perhaps Madonna has changed and is not so strict in keeping details of an upcoming album unlike before. Yes, perhaps she changed her mind in 2 weeks. Good for her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Lecter Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 She IS dance Always will be there will be elements not matter what I'm excited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerGirl Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Umm.. have you heard his work with britney? MADONNA is calling the shots. she along with patrick leonard are the real ground layers of that record. orbit just put his sound and flair to it. listening to wake me up now.. it's really a beautiful track. Im in that mood of getting hopeful again. the good thing about him is (compared to other dance producers) is that he lets the instruments be vibrant through the music. especially the beautiful guitars. You can blame will.i.am for that. He was the executive producer on BJ and ruined every song. Orbit was VERY unhappy with how his tracks turned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt420 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Thank you. Off the bat, I can think of a couple of posters from Tribe who are also posting here, who drove out a number of members from that forum (including myself) because of their incessant negativity. They are hateful & I hope the mods don't allow them to spread their poison here as well. Don't be fooled by their occasional praise for Madonna. As for the producers, you're right, everyone including her fans underestimate Madonna's contribution. What have Patrick Leonard,Steve Bray, Shep Pettibone, William Orbit, Mirwais, Stuart Price done that can equal their work with Madonna. Nothing. All of her collaborators have given Madonna high praise for her abilities as a songwriter & producer but it seems that most people including her most ardent fans still don't give her her due credit. Awesome post lori, I do always enjoy reading your posts! And yes, I'm crystal clear on some of the posters in this thread. I mean, they only show up to say something shitty......but they sprinkle it with some random (not to mention forced) praise to try to look legit. Nope, not falling for it at all. I think as a forum, we gave the benefit of the doubt in the past to assholes that as it turned out, probably should've been banned from the get go......I'm not gonna mention specific names, but I don't think I need to either (for those that have been here for years). It's extremely depressing to see fans that are diehard enough to join discussion forums about Madonna to doubt her talent and artistic input. Regardless of whether you like MDNA or not, if you're here clearly you've appreciated her work somewhere down the line......apparently the old "your only as good as your last hit" even applies to someone who has proven herself over and over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coco Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 voted no cause his music doesn't appeal to me but she knows what she's doing besides i doubt he's producing more than a few songs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I couldn't keep on reading on that forum or even less post something I'm with you on that. The "blind Stan" label that gets thrown around there for NOT agreeing that Madonna is nothing without her chosen Svengali for each album, her desperation as an old lady, and a baby buying cougar can really turn a real fan off. If Magnus ever shows up here we'll know the tribe is dead. As far as Avicii and Madonna's collaboration is concerned, there seems to be a whole bunch of conclusions based on past works. I'm excited that she's lifting the veil of secrecy a little bit... Maybe she knows 100% that its not gonna leak this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btrm81 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 But again, they are just sales numbers. They have no importance to me nor should they have any importance to anyone. Why should we care how much money Madonna makes out of her albums? It doesn't mean the product is good, does it? The sales numbers and charts are nothing but PR. We should concentrate on demanding the product to be good. Even if we don't talk about artistic quality, there's still evidence that quality control is failing. For example, MDNA Tour releases (which even Madonna commented on). But I'm not interested in that. Besides, MDNA was wasn't even in top 20 when it comes to best selling albums of 2012. And the commercial success of albums today isn't really defined by the sales of the actual album but by the success of its singles. And the MDNA singles flopped. The HC singles besides 4M didn't do much better. But again, this doesn't matter to me. Whether her singles flop or not is irrelevant to me. Also, the way you interpret the sales is also based on your own perceptions. You may think HC and MDNA did well commercially because that's how you choose to look at the numbers. I don't think the numbers are good when you look at the whole product which is albums and their singles. Those numbers wouldn't impress me if I cared about them. So what you write isn't entirely based just on facts but also on how you interpret them and how you choose to perceive them. And that's ok. And yes, Sherlock, nothing I said was a fact (and I never said they were... I think responding with "that's just your opinion, not a fact" is one of the most boring responses nowadays in any forum but I digress...). Yes, art is subjective. That's not a big revelation. I don't need to convince anyone that the artistic quality of her work has gone down. The lyrics aren't as good as they used to be. The music videos aren't as good as they used to be. Not even the music or the production is as good as it used to be. I don't need to get anyone agree with me. Art is subjective, like I said that is true. But how have we as a whole come to value Salvador Dali, for example? Why do people consider Vertigo, for example, to be one of the greatest films of all-time? Why do people consider "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" to be one of the best albums ever? Because enough people share the same opinion. Because enough people value those high. Because enough people respect them. Metacritic is somewhat useful source for evaluating the quality of the album, for instance. HC scored 65 and MDNA 64. Not great although not bad either. But should that average score be good enough? Also, Madonna's albums recently haven't gotten much respect outside her fans. And even among her fans the reaction to her albums and work in general as been mixed. Some fans blame other fans for those mixed reactions because it's easier to point the finger at someone like, well, me than it's to point at Madonna. But that is one way of evaluating the artistic success of an album. How much respect does it get from people who aren't fans? When Madonna does thins as well as she did with Ray of Light, she gets respect. Music and COADF got respect from outside her fans. HC? No. MDNA? No. So while art is subjective and my opinion is just one. But there is also a thing called concensus. That doesn't work in the favor of HC nor MDNA. EDIT: But we can agree to disagree about these things. I don't want to get dragged into a fight that lasts for pages. I don't want to wallow in negativity. I'm not interested that. It takes too much time and energy. I've shared my take on this (these issues?) and I'll leave it at that. great post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vocalism Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Past work is all we have to go by. I know people are miffed that some fans aren't happy and making judgments so early. But the bitch leaked the details. So I say let people judge away and then eat crow if they're wrong. There's really no harm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt420 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 But again, they are just sales numbers. They have no importance to me nor should they have any importance to anyone. Why should we care how much money Madonna makes out of her albums? It doesn't mean the product is good, does it? The sales numbers and charts are nothing but PR. We should concentrate on demanding the product to be good. Even if we don't talk about artistic quality, there's still evidence that quality control is failing. For example, MDNA Tour releases (which even Madonna commented on). But I'm not interested in that. Besides, MDNA was wasn't even in top 20 when it comes to best selling albums of 2012. And the commercial success of albums today isn't really defined by the sales of the actual album but by the success of its singles. And the MDNA singles flopped. The HC singles besides 4M didn't do much better. But again, this doesn't matter to me. Whether her singles flop or not is irrelevant to me. Also, the way you interpret the sales is also based on your own perceptions. You may think HC and MDNA did well commercially because that's how you choose to look at the numbers. I don't think the numbers are good when you look at the whole product which is albums and their singles. Those numbers wouldn't impress me if I cared about them. So what you write isn't entirely based just on facts but also on how you interpret them and how you choose to perceive them. And that's ok. And yes, Sherlock, nothing I said was a fact (and I never said they were... I think responding with "that's just your opinion, not a fact" is one of the most boring responses nowadays in any forum but I digress...). Yes, art is subjective. That's not a big revelation. I don't need to convince anyone that the artistic quality of her work has gone down. The lyrics aren't as good as they used to be. The music videos aren't as good as they used to be. Not even the music or the production is as good as it used to be. I don't need to get anyone agree with me. Art is subjective, like I said that is true. But how have we as a whole come to value Salvador Dali, for example? Why do people consider Vertigo, for example, to be one of the greatest films of all-time? Why do people consider "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" to be one of the best albums ever? Because enough people share the same opinion. Because enough people value those high. Because enough people respect them. Metacritic is somewhat useful source for evaluating the quality of the album, for instance. HC scored 65 and MDNA 64. Not great although not bad either. But should that average score be good enough? Also, Madonna's albums recently haven't gotten much respect outside her fans. And even among her fans the reaction to her albums and work in general as been mixed. Some fans blame other fans for those mixed reactions because it's easier to point the finger at someone like, well, me than it's to point at Madonna. But that is one way of evaluating the artistic success of an album. How much respect does it get from people who aren't fans? When Madonna does thins as well as she did with Ray of Light, she gets respect. Music and COADF got respect from outside her fans. HC? No. MDNA? No. So while art is subjective and my opinion is just one. But there is also a thing called concensus. That doesn't work in the favor of HC nor MDNA. EDIT: But we can agree to disagree about these things. I don't want to get dragged into a fight that lasts for pages. I don't want to wallow in negativity. I'm not interested that. It takes too much time and energy. I've shared my take on this (these issues?) and I'll leave it at that. First off, good reviews can be just as bought, PR spin as sales figures. Secondly, sales may not matter to you, but apparently validation from others does. Madonna "getting respect" ALWAYS has more determining factors than the quality of the music. I think she realized this long ago, which is why she doesn't seem to put much importance on good or bad reviews. Granted, she is a human being so obviously hearing your album went to number one or that Rolling Stone gave it a 5 star review would put a smile on your face for a moment, but clearly at the end of the day she realizes it's all bullshit. She had a very "safe" image with ROL. She had just come off Evita, she was a new Mommy, to a "normal" person it was much easier to relate to her. If she were 50,with rumors of infidelity and "buying" black babies, divorced with a bit of a chip on her shoulder, scantily clad, dating 24 year olds with ROL, would she have gotten the same praise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt420 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Past work is all we have to go by. I know people are miffed that some fans aren't happy and making judgments so early. But the bitch leaked the details. So I say let people judge away and then eat crow if they're wrong. There's really no harm done. Thats fine and all but isn't it a bit depressing that her DIEHARD fans have so little faith in her musical abilities?? We have so many discussions about how it's a shame she doesn't get recognized for her musical abilities but instead it's her business sense or ability to hire the right people that gets praised from the GP. Apparently though, many of her biggest supporters feel the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Thats fine and all but isn't it a bit depressing that her DIEHARD fans have so little faith in her musical abilities?? We have so many discussions about how it's a shame she doesn't get recognized for her musical abilities but instead it's her business sense or ability to hire the right people that gets praised from the GP. Apparently though, many of her biggest supporters feel the same way. I agree. And it's a tired argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolidayGuy Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I just hope they produce something a bit more magical than what he has produced thus far with others. As long as it's a true collaboration- where she writes lyrics and is part of the process, like most of her work- it may well be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUnseenHand Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Secondly, sales may not matter to you, but apparently validation from others does. Okay, one clarification. No, validation from others doesn't matter to me either. I'm only interested in the quality of Madonna's work. That's what matters. I can form my own opinion, views and thoughts all by myself and I don't mind if only I have that particular opinion. But you overlooked my take on this because it was just an opinion and not a fact. Therefore, I mentioned general opinion and consensus in this discussion which indicate the same thing I earlier said and that is that the quality of her work has gone down and she doesn't get the same respect for her work that she has before. She's done scandalous things in the past but people never really had a problem with her music the way they do today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glindathegood Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 But how do you measure the quality of someone's music? Taste in music is so subjective, what may be great to one person may be terrible to another person. There are lots of albums that are positively reviewed that I don't like at all. People may say people never had a problem with her work before, but in earlier times we didn't have forums and the Internet where everyone could come and criticize her music and you could read all kinds of negative opinions. How do you know some people wouldn't have had a problem with some of her earlier music if you could go online and read their opinions. You say you can form your own opinion, but how much is your opinion shaped by other opinions you read online at forums and general music websites? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karbatal Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Do we really have to discuss AGAIN if HC or MDNA were flops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vocalism Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 ^ "Flop" is relative. I'm not sure a 50something female who's been in the business for 30 years can do much better than she's doing right now. And I can't think of anyone in her position who is. Thats fine and all but isn't it a bit depressing that her DIEHARD fans have so little faith in her musical abilities?? We have so many discussions about how it's a shame she doesn't get recognized for her musical abilities but instead it's her business sense or ability to hire the right people that gets praised from the GP. Apparently though, many of her biggest supporters feel the same way. Fair enough, and I can obviously only speak for myself, but ever since AL, I have indeed lost some faith. There's plenty to love about COADF, HC, and MDNA, but her instincts for what's cool and interesting have waned quite a bit in recent years. Many on here will disagree, but it's my opinion, so therefore I'm certain there will be plenty to like on the new album (there always is), but I would say I'm cautiously hopeful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt420 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Okay, one clarification. No, validation from others doesn't matter to me either. I'm only interested in the quality of Madonna's work. That's what matters. I can form my own opinion, views and thoughts all by myself and I don't mind if only I have that particular opinion. But you overlooked my take on this because it was just an opinion and not a fact. Therefore, I mentioned general opinion and consensus in this discussion which indicate the same thing I earlier said and that is that the quality of her work has gone down and she doesn't get the same respect for her work that she has before. She's done scandalous things in the past but people never really had a problem with her music the way they do today. I don't really give Metacritic much validity because I feel it can be easily manipulated, but since you mentioned it in an earlier post, I'm gonna use it as an example. You mentioned the score indicates kind of a "so-so" or mixed consensus amongst critics for HC and MDNA. I would actually agree with that. I've read some truly glowing reviews and some really bad ones for both albums. I can honestly say it was about equal too. That means just as many would rank it with her best as with her worst. Before that COADF was very well received overall, before that AL was not received well overall. With Music and ROL she hit it out of the park overall critically. BS and Erotica had a more mixed reception upon release more comparable to that of MDNA and HC. The overall trend here is that she doesn't hit a home run critically with EVERY album upon its release. That's how it's been for at least 20 years, if not her entire career. It just so happens recently you are one of the ones who would agree with the more not so good reviews because it reflects your own opinion. That's fine, but on the other side you have an equal number who feel the exact opposite. I definitely think it's fair to say Erotica had the very same reception, of course the Sex book helped sway it slightly toward the negative side. Scandalous things most DEFINITELY affected how her music was received critically on numerous occasions, Erotica and AL standing out the most of course. Twenty years makes you view some things with rose tinted glasses and despite the general consensus among diehards that Erotica is among her best, even now, outside of forums like this I don't see this universal love for Erotica that many seem to see. Yes, I've read more recent reviews that are more favorable, but again sometimes 20 years can put things into perspective. Critics have said that Janet Jackson's album janet is the "Erotica Madonna failed". I've also read that Erotica is when Madonnas music stopped "mattering" on a cultural or "zeitgeist" kind of level. Equally I've heard it's when she mattered most. So who is right? Nobody. Madonna is. She's the one who's going to do what she wants regardless of how much I love and you hate MDNA. So just sit back, shut the fuck up, enjoy the ride and don't expect her to meet YOUR expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysium Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 It would be nice for her to finally have an international hit on her hands seeing as she hasn't really had one in over 6 years. I know the charts do not really matter or indicate anything about quality however another D.O.A. like MDNA would be disappointing seeing as she was previously renowned for making great classic hits...I think her last classic hit was Hung Up...with 4 Minutes being a more recent hit without the international acclaim or longevity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 But again, they are just sales numbers. They have no importance to me nor should they have any importance to anyone. Why should we care how much money Madonna makes out of her albums? It doesn't mean the product is good, does it? The sales numbers and charts are nothing but PR. We should concentrate on demanding the product to be good. Even if we don't talk about artistic quality, there's still evidence that quality control is failing. For example, MDNA Tour releases (which even Madonna commented on). But I'm not interested in that. Besides, MDNA was wasn't even in top 20 when it comes to best selling albums of 2012. And the commercial success of albums today isn't really defined by the sales of the actual album but by the success of its singles. And the MDNA singles flopped. The HC singles besides 4M didn't do much better. But again, this doesn't matter to me. Whether her singles flop or not is irrelevant to me. Also, the way you interpret the sales is also based on your own perceptions. You may think HC and MDNA did well commercially because that's how you choose to look at the numbers. I don't think the numbers are good when you look at the whole product which is albums and their singles. Those numbers wouldn't impress me if I cared about them. So what you write isn't entirely based just on facts but also on how you interpret them and how you choose to perceive them. And that's ok. And yes, Sherlock, nothing I said was a fact (and I never said they were... I think responding with "that's just your opinion, not a fact" is one of the most boring responses nowadays in any forum but I digress...). Yes, art is subjective. That's not a big revelation. I don't need to convince anyone that the artistic quality of her work has gone down. The lyrics aren't as good as they used to be. The music videos aren't as good as they used to be. Not even the music or the production is as good as it used to be. I don't need to get anyone agree with me. Art is subjective, like I said that is true. But how have we as a whole come to value Salvador Dali, for example? Why do people consider Vertigo, for example, to be one of the greatest films of all-time? Why do people consider "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" to be one of the best albums ever? Because enough people share the same opinion. Because enough people value those high. Because enough people respect them. Metacritic is somewhat useful source for evaluating the quality of the album, for instance. HC scored 65 and MDNA 64. Not great although not bad either. But should that average score be good enough? Also, Madonna's albums recently haven't gotten much respect outside her fans. And even among her fans the reaction to her albums and work in general as been mixed. Some fans blame other fans for those mixed reactions because it's easier to point the finger at someone like, well, me than it's to point at Madonna. But that is one way of evaluating the artistic success of an album. How much respect does it get from people who aren't fans? When Madonna does thins as well as she did with Ray of Light, she gets respect. Music and COADF got respect from outside her fans. HC? No. MDNA? No. So while art is subjective and my opinion is just one. But there is also a thing called concensus. That doesn't work in the favor of HC nor MDNA. EDIT: But we can agree to disagree about these things. I don't want to get dragged into a fight that lasts for pages. I don't want to wallow in negativity. I'm not interested that. It takes too much time and energy. I've shared my take on this (these issues?) and I'll leave it at that. Oh Christopher. Are you thinking about the good old days when you were 'involved'? Your sister uses her albums as vehicles for her true art which is her live performance. That's what matters to me. Not charts or opinion polls. Who cares? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realityisalways Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Oh Christopher. Are you thinking about the good old days when you were 'involved'? Your sister uses her albums as vehicles for her true art which is her live performance. That's what matters to me. Not charts or opinion polls. Who cares? So that is Christopher Ciccone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gutten Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Okay, one clarification. No, validation from others doesn't matter to me either. I'm only interested in the quality of Madonna's work. That's what matters. I can form my own opinion, views and thoughts all by myself and I don't mind if only I have that particular opinion. But you overlooked my take on this because it was just an opinion and not a fact. Therefore, I mentioned general opinion and consensus in this discussion which indicate the same thing I earlier said and that is that the quality of her work has gone down and she doesn't get the same respect for her work that she has before. She's done scandalous things in the past but people never really had a problem with her music the way they do today. I agree with you on everything. I so wish she was going for quality pop instead of cheap generic dance music just to get airplay. She's fighting a losing battle at radio and she's turning off half her fanbase. I think people would pay more attention to her if she'd bring something new, not something from last's year producer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsaacHarris Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I'm not, but Madonna's not in the business of making me happy. Imma pray for her & Avicii though; may the lord bless them with some kind of miracle collaboration AMEN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I agree with you on everything. I so wish she was going for quality pop instead of cheap generic dance music just to get airplay. She's fighting a losing battle at radio and she's turning off half her fanbase. I think people would pay more attention to her if she'd bring something new, not something from last's year producer.I guess she should take your advice being that you're a creamy smooth pop icon goddess yourself. How many records have you sold? How many stadiums have you filled? Oh...really? Girl, bye. You're talking about bringing something new while talking the same old boring shit you always do. If that's your opinion go and lock yourself in a bomb shelter with the immaculate collection and do us all a favour! Take note bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gutten Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I guess she should take your advice being that you're a creamy smooth pop icon goddess yourself. How many records have you sold? How many stadiums have you filled? Oh...really? Girl, bye. You're talking about bringing something new while talking the same old boring shit you always do. If that's your opinion go and lock yourself in a bomb shelter with the immaculate collection and do us all a favour! Take note bitch. Whoa lololol Don't take it so bad… I just don't like the cheap music she's been doing since 2009, relax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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