debord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 It would've been very Fiona at the MTV awards, which is no doubt a bad ass thing to do but it was not the time or the place or the event for that matter. There is never a 'time and a place' to make a stand about 'controversial' issues. That's what makes the stand 'brave' in the first place. The idea that Madonna should only speak up when it's not going to cause a fuss is awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glindathegood Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Spoken like someone who's not bothered to investigate the Manning issue or, indeed, the Obama administration's attitude to whistleblowers in general (and wider approach to criticism) but rather has swallowed the administration's line wholeheartedly. You can start here: http://www.bradleyma...-endanger-lives And anyone who celebrates this speech but excuses its avoidance of Manning with an appeal to the implication that he somehow deserves his treatment has absolutely no business celebrating 'bravery' in the first place. That's your opinion and point of view. Other people have a different opinion. I think the Bradley Manning situation is very ambiguous and it's not clear who is in the right and the wrong. It would be very unwise of Madonna to wade into that whole situation. You have to admit the Bradley Manning situation is not as clear cut as what happened with Pussy Riot or gay people in Iran. Maybe you're right and Obama is wrong, but you have to admit it's not so clear cut as those other situations. There's nothing brave about mouthing about something that is not clear and when you don't have all the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mensch Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 As are the issues I discussed - and indeed, given Anderson Cooper's career, they are more relevant than what the Taliban gets up to. I also can't conceive how you keep saying that she wasn't 'too serious' when she was speaking about hangings and the murder of children. If she could mention them she could mention anything. Look, whatever, we obviously disagree. Manning's actions were indeed brave and Madonna would and I'm sure if she's aware, praises his actions for just that, being brave. She didn't mention it and I don't blame her for it cause either she didn't even think of mentioning it or she didn't want to. Either way, her choice. I loved her speech. You didn't. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollhouse Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 and I think Obama has done some good things to gays, hasnt he? so I dont see the problem Madonna supporting him instead the republican choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pasqual Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 is it time for AL2 ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mensch Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 There is never a 'time and a place' to make a stand about 'controversial' issues. That's what makes the stand 'brave' in the first place. The idea that Madonna should only speak up when it's not going to cause a fuss is awful. I know what you're saying. I still don't think, of it were me up there, that I would've felt that it was the right time FOR ME, to mention it. You have to understand that granted, it's never the right time, but as the individual acting "brave" you have to feel that it's right to speak about it at the moment you decide to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mensch Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 is it time for AL2 ??? :drool:/> I hope so. I hope it's a ray of light/music/American life album, with more spirituality mixed with politics perfected to the Nth degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 That's your opinion and point of view. Other people have a different opinion. I think the Bradley Manning situation is very ambiguous and it's not clear who is in the right and the wrong. It would be very unwise of Madonna to wade into that whole situation. You have to admit the Bradley Manning situation is not as clear cut as what happened with Pussy Riot or gay people in Iraq. Maybe you're right and Obama is wrong, but you have to admit it's not so clear cut as those other situations. There's nothing brave about mouthing about something that is not clear and when you don't have all the facts. I don't 'have to admit' it at all. I think the Manning situation is very clear cut when you look at the abuses he exposed. I suggest you listen to his statement from last week: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/12/bradley-manning-tapes-own-words I could very easily make a case against Pussy Riot if I wanted to - indeed, people in the United Kingdom have been convicted of disrupting church services, which is what they did. This is the view the Russian administration puts out and one which many in Russia buy into, just as many Americans believe Manning to be a dangerous criminal. And what's happening to gay people in Iraq? She didn't mention Iraq at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I know what you're saying. I still don't think, of it were me up there, that I would've felt that it was the right time FOR ME, to mention it. You have to understand that granted, it's never the right time, but as the individual acting "brave" you have to feel that it's right to speak about it at the moment you decide to. Okay...I don't want to disrupt the whole thread onto this so we can agree to disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mensch Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I don't 'have to admit' it at all. I think the Manning situation is very clear cut when you look at the abuses he exposed. I suggest you listen to his statement from last week: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/12/bradley-manning-tapes-own-words I could very easily make a case against Pussy Riot if I wanted to - indeed, people in the United Kingdom have been convicted of disrupting church services, which is what they did. This is the view the Russian administration puts out and one which many in Russia buy into, just as many Americans believe Manning to be a dangerous criminal. And what's happening to gay people in Iraq? She didn't mention Iraq at all. You're just really keen on her having made this a 2 hour speech about every single thing that's on YOUR mind (and others that are interested). All you're basically saying is that she didn't mention this or that. Tough stuff. Idk what to tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glindathegood Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I don't 'have to admit' it at all. I think the Manning situation is very clear cut when you look at the abuses he exposed. I suggest you listen to his statement from last week: http://www.guardian....tapes-own-words I could very easily make a case against Pussy Riot if I wanted to - indeed, people in the United Kingdom have been convicted of disrupting church services, which is what they did. This is the view the Russian administration puts out and one which many in Russia buy into, just as many Americans believe Manning to be a dangerous criminal. And what's happening to gay people in Iraq? She didn't mention Iraq at all. I meant Iran, not Iraq. I corrected it. You clearly have a certain political agenda here. It's not up to Madonna to advance your own political agenda. She made a more general speech of humanism, not partisan politics. There is a difference between disrupting a church and being involved in classified information and national security. I don't see why you can't see that. You may be right, but the Manning thing is very controversial and in dispute and is not the same as what goes in Russia and Iran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mensch Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I meant Iran, not Iraq. I corrected it. You clearly have a certain political agenda here. It's not up to Madonna to advance your own political agenda. She made a more general speech of humanism, not partisan politics. There is a difference between disrupting a church and being involved in classified information and national security. I don't see why you can't see that. You may be right, but the Manning thing is very controversial and in dispute and is not the same as what goes in Russia and Iran. That's exactly what I was trying to say, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 You're just really keen on her having made this a 2 hour speech about every single thing that's on YOUR mind (and others that are interested). All you're basically saying is that she didn't mention this or that. Tough stuff. Idk what to tell you. Um...no. As I've said repeatedly now, the things she chose to mention make her speech hypocritical and emblematic of wider American hypocrisy on these issues. It's really not that difficult. The relevance of Manning is obvious, I'm hardly complaining that she didn't start going on about child slavery in Uzbekistan here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I meant Iran, not Iraq. I corrected it. You clearly have a certain political agenda here. It's not up to Madonna to advance your own political agenda. She made a more general speech of humanism, not partisan politics. There is a difference between disrupting a church and being involved in classified information and national security. I don't see why you can't see that. You may be right, but the Manning thing is very controversial and in dispute and is not the same as what goes in Russia and Iran. Hahahaha. So Madonna didn't have a 'certain political agenda'? Are you serious? In choosing what to speak about and what not to speak about, and how she speaks about them, she is making political choices. As I just said, the Pussy Riot sentence is 'controversial' and 'in dispute' in Russia. In any event, saying she can only speak about things which Americans consider to be unjust already is again saying she did absolutely nothing of note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 And, you know, figures no less than Desmond Tutu, Noam Chomsky, Adolfo Perez Esquivel and Daniel Ellsberg are very outspoken in their support of Manning. It's only 'controversial' if you believe everything the Obama administration tells you (not least given their efforts to keep the trial secret). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 It's an award to her friend, maybe she wanted to keep it light, while still making a stand. and the boy scout thing is something I was not aware of at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollhouse Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 this was truly iconic moment for her, I think that even some of her critics were truly impressed the boots with fishnets are real throwback to the 90's circa "The Girlie Show" era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 It's an award to her friend, maybe she wanted to keep it light, while still making a stand. and the boy scout thing is something I was not aware of at all. But she didn't keep it light! I don't want to keep repeating myself but if you can mention shooting children I really don't see how anything else could conceivably be considered too 'heavy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Barthes Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Bradley Manning was arrested and tried for leaking top secret files not because he is gay. His defense team used his homosexuality as an excuse to victimize him and not only him but all gays and lesbians serving in the US army painting them as somehow psychologicaly unfit to be in the army. He leaked secret files to wikileaks that's why he's tried not because he's gay. Stop using being gay as an excuse for everything you do wrong, it's pissing in the faces of people who are actually judged and persecuted for being gay. While i admire what he did because it helped showing american war crimes and imperialism it has NOTHING to do with his sexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mensch Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 But she didn't keep it light! I don't want to keep repeating myself but if you can mention shooting children I really don't see how anything else could conceivably be considered too 'heavy'. Because the media doesn't give a shit about people being shot, nor do they care about social injustices. They would cause an uproar if M targeted Obama for persecuting Manning. So, it was light in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Bradley Manning was arrested and tried for leaking top secret files not because he is gay. His defense team used his homosexuality as an excuse to victimize him and not only him but all gays and lesbians serving in the US army painting them as somehow psychologicaly unfit to be in the army. He leaked secret files to wikileaks that's why he's tried not because he's gay. Stop using being gay as an excuse for everything you do wrong, it's pissing in the faces of people who are actually judged and persecuted for being gay. While i admire what he did because it helped showing american war crimes and imperialism it has NOTHING to do with his sexuality. Um...I haven't said he was persecuted for being gay. Madonna didn't restrict her comments to people persecuted for being gay. That's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mensch Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Um...I haven't said he was persecuted for being gay. Madonna didn't restrict her comments to people persecuted for being gay. That's the point. That is true. She was bringing up a broader point about social injustices being about everyone, not just the gays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Because the media doesn't give a shit about people being shot, nor do they care about social injustices. They would cause an uproar if M targeted Obama for persecuting Manning. So, it was light in comparison. So, again, you're actively arguing for her to stick to what's acceptable rather than actually be brave. Anyone who would actually have the mindset of 'I can speak about shooting a child cos no-one will care but if I mentioned torturing an American citizen I'd get a bit of stick for it' would be a narcissistic sociopath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 That is true. She was bringing up a broader point about social injustices being about everyone, not just the gays. But not, apparently, about anything which would make liberal Americans uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Look, Im sure Madonna is not behind everything Obama says. She is just picking the best of two of the biggest options. Vote for something bad, or vote for something horrible. It's not perfect but there is nothing better out there. Unless she's starting her own thing with the FFFU of course, who the fuck knows with her :roll: Anyway, it was a good speech. Some parts being really great and classic Madonna. not her most inspiring speech of all, but good enough. that said, I think the biggest insult is glaad using Madonna for attention to hand out an award to someone else. even that lady gaga has two glaad awards. madonna has none. that should tell you enough about that cheesy show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat.Guy Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mensch Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 But not, apparently, about anything which would make liberal Americans uncomfortable. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jan Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Mensch, How did you enjoy the night ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mensch Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Mensch, How did you enjoy the night ? I didn't. I hd a connection to getting in but it didn't pan out so I decided to still go and see if I could get a glimpse of M but I only saw Snooki, JWoww, Milla, Anderson, Countess Luann and Vinny. I barely even noticed Anderson. I stood outside freezing for 3 hours and then went home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider of the lost Ark Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I don't get this arguing. Sorry debord, you make your case because she started to talk about things that has not to do with gay. Like the girl that was shot in the head or Pussy Riot. But you totally ignore that she did not choose those examples out of the blue. She is coming full circle. All those examples were altready mentioned during her MDNA tour. Whereas she has no relation to the Manning case at all. Furthermore, Madonna is a known fighter for womens rights. So it comes natural that she would rather talk about women who did something exceptional. Especially that poor girl from Pakistan who fought for her right for an education when she tries to improve the situation of children especially girls in Malawi by providing schools. And about the Pussy Riots, you can't be serious. We all know what they did was against the law. BUT even those with hardly any knowledge about the political situation realize that their punishment was not for breaking that law. It was for criticising the Russian government especially Putin. And therefore they got slapped with a draconic sentence. If this would have been a single case then this would be "debatable". But the way the situation was handled by authorities is symptomatic how opposition in Russia is treated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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