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promise to try

Spain...destroying themselves from the inside

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4 hours ago, promise to try said:

so you are the one leaving spain!!!!!!!! but we need to vote that!!!!!

The difference would be that I leave, but don't take with me the infrastructures paid by all Spain during more than 150 years,  main reason why centre of Spain is now a demographic desert. :lmao:

If any Basque or Catalanish independentist only new a bit of REAL history, not the junk fed since the 80s in their schools,  would realise how all the efforts from Madrid during the industrial revolution of the 19th century were strategically focused on Basque Country and Catalonia and Valencia because they were near the frontier and in the Mediterranean routes.  Train lines, big industries and all infrastructure paid by Madrid in detriment of other regions,  whose population migrated to those places.  Now part of Aragon and the two Castillas are a economic and demographic desert and those rich regions want independence and say Spain robs them money. 

It makes me sick the level of unculture,  the lack of historical perspective and the pure GREED and classism in those people.  Especially when thanks to democracy they are FREE to speak their language,  create their own laws and enjoy their differences.  

 

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1 hour ago, Roland Barthes said:

Since we're talking politics in spain, i want to say that i have a major crush on Ramon Espinar.

Omg who isn't?????  HOT 

9LrpT_1W_400x400.jpg

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Just now, karbatal said:

 

If any Basque or Catalanish independentist only new a bit of REAL history, not the junk fed since the 80s in their schools,  would realise how all the efforts from Madrid during the industrial revolution of the 19th century were strategically focused on Basque Country and Catalonia and Valencia because they were near the frontier and in the Mediterranean routes.  Train lines, big industries and all infrastructure paid by Madrid in detriment of other regions,  whose population migrated to those places.  Now part of Aragon and the two Castillas are a economic and demographic desert and those rich regions want independence and say Spain robs them money. 

I

 

I work in one of these schools: everytime I hear we/they teach them weird things, I´m surprised. I don´t think the books are good, actually, I would change most of it if I could, but we nrealy don´t mention the basque country in them.well, it appears when we have to see the industrialisation in spain, in the civil wars of the 19th century (carlist wars) and nothing more.

all the "junk" topics comefrom outside schools, at least in the ones that I know.

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ok, now the ones that were angry because people were insulting serrat (!!!), are insulting Manolo garcia!!

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Its so stupid what is happening in Spain: why divide when everyone is getting united? Also, do they know they ll be out of EU also? Spain would never agree Catalonia to remain. And also, I foresee it would happen like in UK: no money would be given to the Catalonians, actually they ll loose money...

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11 hours ago, elijah said:

Its so stupid what is happening in Spain: why divide when everyone is getting united? Also, do they know they ll be out of EU also? Spain would never agree Catalonia to remain. And also, I foresee it would happen like in UK: no money would be given to the Catalonians, actually they ll loose money...

I am embarrassed of this situation and consider the majority of Spanish people stupid.  No wonder we are constantly being robbed by politicians.  I can't wait to leave this stupid country.  I'm sick and tired. 

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3 hours ago, karbatal said:

I am embarrassed of this situation and consider the majority of Spanish people stupid.  No wonder we are constantly being robbed by politicians.  I can't wait to leave this stupid country.  I'm sick and tired. 

 Same. I am disgusted and ashamed of my country. No wonder people want to be independent from this fascist state. 

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Rubber bullets and batons reigned upon people trying to peacefully tick a box. Disgusting scenes of state violence from fascist Spain and virtual silence from UK mainstream media and May and Corbyn (the socialist LOL) alike as the ghost of Franco awakens. And those in here opposed to SELF DETERMINATION of people can go fuck themselves.

 

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To be fair those trying to "vote" (that means going to a place to do some pantomime that amounts to nothing)  are stirring shit big time.  They have been throwing stones to the police too.  

I don't want anybody hurt but really,  this fake referendum is embarrassing.  And the SPOILED people from Catalonia who always have everything better and are used to be Queen Bees wherever they go should know a bit more about other regions in Spain where projects are blocked for decades because Madrid is too busy licking Barcelona's ass. If anyone wants to know,  ask me. I live in the region bordering Catalonia,  where our trains are the ones being taken from Catalonia for being obsolete.  

I wish there were a referendum,  but to VOTE THEM OUT. 

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All that junk about self determination has to be cleared.  You can't be the focus of investment from a country for 150 years and leave because you are now richer. Because due to all investment and powerful economy in Catalonia and Basque Country,  half of Spanish territory has less inhabitants per kilometres than Laponia,  near North Pole.  My region suffering all that big time.  We have reinvented ourselves as logistic centre and oh boy how difficult it is to attract a big firm when Madrid supports and convinces that Catalonia is the place (as happened with Amazon)  or after 70 years BEGGING for the train tunnel through the Pyrenees to be re opened so our logistics centre can grow all efforts from MADRID go to the Mediterranean link and the EU funds that other project. 

And now,  with their full stomachs and millions of people who have gone there to work because in our inner regions we had nothing,  they want out and say that the reason is type Spain robs them... 

This is pure GREED.  

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4 minutes ago, karbatal said:

All that junk about self determination has to be cleared.  You can't be the focus of investment from a country for 150 years and leave because you are now richer. Because due to all investment and powerful economy in Catalonia and Basque Country,  half of Spanish territory has less inhabitants per kilometres than Laponia,  near North Pole.  My region suffering all that big time.  We have reinvented ourselves as logistic centre and oh boy how difficult it is to attract a big firm when Madrid supports and convinces that Catalonia is the place (as happened with Amazon)  or after 70 years BEGGING for the train tunnel through the Pyrenees to be re opened so our logistics centre can grow all efforts from MADRID go to the Mediterranean link and the EU funds that other project. 

And now,  with their full stomachs and millions of people who have gone there to work because in our inner regions we had nothing,  they want out and say that the reason is type Spain robs them... 

This is pure GREED.  

True. They are stupid to think they will be better off Spain. They won't!

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The brutal muscling aside of DEMOCRACY in Catalonia by Madrid’s Francoist government is an outrage. THAT is what you people should be annoyed by, not the fact that you may have different political or socio-economic views. Jesus.

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4 minutes ago, elijah said:

True. They are stupid to think they will be better off Spain. They won't!

This is Brexit 2.0.  A disinformed mass poisoned by media and stupid politicians.  Spanish people and Catalanish people. And nobody speaks of the consequences.  Just like London thought that would leave the EU and get richer.  Spoiled English people and spoiled Catalanish people who think the world turns around their bellies.  

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1 minute ago, Kim said:

The brutal muscling aside of DEMOCRACY in Catalonia by Madrid’s Francoist government is an outrage. THAT is what you people should be annoyed by, not the fact that you may have different political or socio-economic views. Jesus.

Is it democracy when its unconstitutional? And also, Karba is right. Its good to be funded with priority for hundred of years and then just leave with the funds of all of Spain...

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2 minutes ago, karbatal said:

This is Brexit 2.0.  A disinformed mass poisoned by media and stupid politicians.  Spanish people and Catalanish people. And nobody speaks of the consequences.  Just like London thought that would leave the EU and get richer.  Spoiled English people and spoiled Catalanish people who think the world turns around their bellies.  

Exactly, it feels like Brexit 2 unveiling...

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1 minute ago, Kim said:

The brutal muscling aside of DEMOCRACY in Catalonia by Madrid’s Francoist government is an outrage. THAT is what you people should be annoyed by, not the fact that you may have different political or socio-economic views. Jesus.

No.  We should be outraged at the corrupted politicians who are using this division as smoke curtain.  Catalanish Government is up their necks with corruption (just like Madrid)  and they're diverting the attention.  This will have bigger consequences than some policial charge, because you can't poison the population for months if not years without expecting consequences.  Spain has had two civil wars in the past 150 years.  Some people seem to forget that. 

And the posion comes both ways.  It doesn't come from Madrid only. 

Funny how things have got some wrong in just four years when the same Catalanish rulers didn't have problems being part of the Spanish government with Zapatero,  Aznar and Felipe González.  

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Re reading my posts it seems I am pro violence :lmao:

Of course I condemn that anyone is hurt and that some retarded policemen used the force in such a way!  My messages are beyond that,  but of course that is WRONG! 

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6 minutes ago, elijah said:

Is it democracy when its unconstitutional? And also, Karba is right. Its good to be funded with priority for hundred of years and then just leave with the funds of all of Spain...

ThIs fallacy that the right to self-determination of a people can be alienated by pre-existing constitutional arrangements is rejected by international law. It is pathetic to see the Establishment (and its mouthpieces like yourself) throughout Europe hiding behind the fig leaf of the Spanish constitutional court to state that Catalonia cannot secede, and therefore the gross repression of democracy by the Spanish government is legitimate. The argument that the post-Franco settlement perpetually alienates the Catalan right to self-determination is risible. It's also embarrassing to see the completely separate issue of Brexit (a Brexit that was overwhelmingly voted AGAINST by the City of London btw,) being brought into the equation. Those voters a least were ALLOWED TO VOTE.

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3 minutes ago, Kim said:

ThIs fallacy that the right to self-determination of a people can be alienated by pre-existing constitutional arrangements is rejected by international law. It is pathetic to see the Establishment (and its mouthpieces like yourself) throughout Europe hiding behind the fig leaf of the Spanish constitutional court to state that Catalonia cannot secede, and therefore the gross repression of democracy by the Spanish government is legitimate. The argument that the post-Franco settlement perpetually alienates the Catalan right to self-determination is risible. It's also embarrassing to see the completely separate issue of Brexit (a Brexit that was overwhelmingly voted AGAINST by the City of London btw,) being brought into the equation. Those voters a least were ALLOWED TO VOTE.

Sorry but Spanish history goes further than Franco. In Catalonia case it is intertwined with my history because Catalonia was part of the Aragon Kingdom,  where Zaragoza  (my city)  was the capital.  Rhe same as the Navarra Kingdom,  which nowadays is more or less Basque Country,  Aragon was absorbed by Castilla. That was a problem because most of citizens in those kingdoms never really felt good with the Castilian leaders and Kings.  

That said,  the real nationalism in Basque Country and Catalonia started in the 19th century,  being part of the romantic movement. Many very old traditions were recovered or directly invented to create a national personality.  Which is not bad because it meant a richer culture.  

The XXTH century was very difficult in Spain and we even got rid of the Kings. During the Republic,  things got incredibly wrong.  That lead to Catalonia to declare the independence unilaterally.  No wonder because nobody wanted to be there. 

During Franco not only those parts of Spain suffered oppression. Many other parts like Aragon,  Galicia,  Valencia etc,  were oppressed and traditions considered an insult to the Spanish Race. Franco was like Hitler and hated anything different.  

That said... 

Since the democracy things changed big time.  Those regions willing to be more independent were invited to have their own Parliament,  competences on Education so children could study in their own language.. Even their own television,  so they could inform from their own issues.  

Until 2010-2012, only a 12% of the people in Catalonia wanted independence.  

Now look at the situation once the corruption swallowed political parties.  

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2 minutes ago, Kim said:

ThIs fallacy that the right to self-determination of a people can be alienated by pre-existing constitutional arrangements is rejected by international law. It is pathetic to see the Establishment (and its mouthpieces like yourself) throughout Europe hiding behind the fig leaf of the Spanish constitutional court to state that Catalonia cannot secede, and therefore the gross repression of democracy by the Spanish government is legitimate. The argument that the post-Franco settlement perpetually alienates the Catalan right to self-determination is risible. It's also embarrassing to see the completely separate issue of Brexit (a Brexit that was overwhelmingly voted AGAINST by the City of London btw,) being brought into the equation. Those voters a least were ALLOWED TO VOTE.

What a dramatic tantrum and a great way to show the liberalism gone wrong. As it is stated by Buda some thousand years ago, always aim at the golden middle. So any extremism in any direction is unhealthy, as he cleverly observed so many years ago. As a whole, I believe in the right to self-determination, but not at any price. I am against people deciding smith so vital when they are ill informed, manipulated and basically tricked to vote a certain way. As an outsider who didn't follow the referendum in Catalonia from within, I don't see any logical reason for wanting to secede from Spain, where Catalonia has been given all the rights/money and into which it has been incorporated for centuries... I have a suspicion who is behind this and funding this in a way to make Spain AND Europe weaker, so that its easy to divide. It has direct connection to Britain and its exit from EU, where ill informed, manipulated and basically tricked to vote a certain way people had the privilege to vote and its another mess, which was useless and with which the whole of EU has to waste time to deal with when there are more important issues at stake... As a whole, as I said, it serves an agenda and the liberals would be the first victims if this agenda wins. 

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10 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Until 2010-2012, only a 12% of the people in Catalonia wanted independence.  

Interesting, very interesting...

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What is happening in Spain right now is such a shame. Is it what they call democracy?

No matter if you're for or against that referendum, you must let people decide for their destiny. 

Never thought I'd say that, but for once I totally agree with @Kim

 

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1 minute ago, runa said:

Never thought I'd say that, but for once I totally agree with @Kim

 

And as usual you're unable to just say "I totally agree with Kim" without the usual passive-aggressive bullshit.

As for the rest, I've no interest in debating with pro-fascist, anti-democratic sympathisers.

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2 minutes ago, Kim said:

As for the rest, I've no interest in debating with pro-fascist, anti-democratic sympathisers.

Well I never knew I was fascist, but I guess I can learn smith new every day. I also don't want to debate with short sighted ppl. By the way you don't sound very democratic. Could the fascist shout "catch the fascist"?

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13 minutes ago, Kim said:

 

And as usual you're unable to just say "I totally agree with Kim" without the usual passive-aggressive bullshit.

As for the rest, I've no interest in debating with pro-fascist, anti-democratic sympathisers.

I hope that doesn't go for me. I tried to give as much information as possible about a very complicated issue because it has nothing to do with other situations like Scotland or Quebecq.  

I don't agree with this referendum because it's as the Brexit one: uncalled for and lacks information.  And I don't agree with the violence expressed by the policy forces. 

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3 minutes ago, karbatal said:

I don't agree with this referendum because it's as the Brexit one: uncalled for and lacks information.  And I don't agree with the violence expressed by the policy forces. 

I agree. I am also against the violence.

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18 minutes ago, elijah said:

Well I never knew I was fascist, but I guess I can learn smith new every day. I also don't want to debate with short sighted ppl. By the way you don't sound very democratic. Could the fascist shout "catch the fascist"?

Well surely some people here don't know how generous Bulgaria was with Macedonia some years ago when they wanted the independence and nobody recognised the country and you helped them instead of trying to get the territory. 

I've always admired your country for that and thank you for trying to comprehend the fact that my country is different. 

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