Madonna, Mariah Carey, & Whitney Houston: Why Queens of Pop Will Flop

[Guest Danny86]

I do think that Madonna hasn't really pulled off anything that has really plugged her back into the "zeitgeist" since Ray of Light - and I am not talking about commercial success only. ROL resonated with a lot of people who would never be a regular Madonna fan - and I think that was reflected in its commercial AND critical successes (including many award nominations).

Not that I disagree with that, but I think those things are manipulated, like the critics just decided it was time to honor Madonna and she was a safe act with ROL so she could get her first musical Grammy etc (and it's not like the ROL video was her best up to that point to deserve like 9 VMAs). The way it was marketed it also helped Madonna to reach new audiences, it was the first time ever she did a proper tv promo tour (twice in Europe in the same year!), the "Frozen" single managed to be a cross between old and new etc... I think in Europe she managed to reach the same heights with "Hung Up" but unfortunately the US was left out. But overall since ROL she's more prominent in Europe than she was between 1990 and 1998. Like, even if AL didn't yield a hit single, it was not actually perceived as a mega-flop in EU and gained some big success like in France, yet Erotica & BS albums went more like under the radar, compared to this decade...

[Nightshade]

Ray of Light got a hard break being locked out of #1 by the iceberg that was the Titanic soundtrack, but it still remains a fact that "Music" was a #1 album and the lead single hit #1. She hadn't done that since "Like a Prayer." I never remember hearing "Ray of Light" on the radio, but I heard "Music" on the radio a lot.

Well, the success of Ray of Light certainly helped Music's opening - at least by laying a foundation of support. I might add that despite having a BIGGER hit with the "Music" single, Music the album sold about 1.5 million copies LESS than Ray of Light in the U.S. and about 4 million less worldwide. So what is more indicative of reaching people? A #1 for one week or selling 30-40% more overall?

Artistically, I'm not saying "Music" is better than "Ray of Light." I love just about everything Madonna and William Orbit did together (and the remixes Orbit did prior to their actual collaborations). But to suggest RoL is the last significant thing she's done is just ridiculous. I can see how they'd overlook American Life, but "Music" should be a no-brainer.

If you want to go by awards and such because that's more meaningful to you, then how about this? "Music" was also nominated for a Grammy (at least one -- maybe more, I don't recall off the top of my head) and it lost out for best pop album to Steely Dan. THAT is ridiculous. Steely Dan may be respectable and all, but there's no way they are more 'pop' than Madonna.

Well, you could also argue that Ray Of Light won multiple Grammies (in musical categories), but Music won none (well, for packaging but that was for visual design not the music).

I just remember in 1998, that Ray of Light had this effect that no album since then has. That year, everyone from Savage Garden to Pearl Jam were covering "Ray of Light" (the song) in concert. The album was a huge commercial success AND had critical acclaim. It had lots of award nominations and some of her best videos. I'm not saying that all these things on their own equate success, but when all of them happen simultaneously, I really do think they indicate a real PLUGGING IN to the current culture, and that is significant. It only happens with a handful of albums each decade - if that.

[Zezwer]

Madonna wont flop.

Mariah will barely do it.

Whitney will be just fine.

Madonna will do ok internationally with the GH, nothing major though. In US i'm afraid it's the same story all over for her, but who cares when you rule the world.

Mariah, the local thing, will obviously flop worldwide.

Whitney is the biggest flop out of these.

[Guest sanctuary]

Madonna will do ok internationally with the GH, nothing major though. In US i'm afraid it's the same story all over for her, but who cares when you rule the world.

Mariah, the local thing, will obviously flop worldwide.

Whitney is the biggest flop out of these.

in this forum you always talk like Madonna has always been nobody in USA and great in Europe, but if you look at the RIAA chart, she sold 63,5 milions album, a little bit more than Mariah and more than M. Jackson.

So it's not always been the same story in USA.

[Shane]

I love "Hung Up" and COADF -- I think "Hung Up" was catchy enough to capture the attention and affection of many non-fans and casual fans, honestly.

But did they forget about "Music"? It was the first time since 1989 that she had the number one album and number one single simultaneously. (She didn't do THAT with Ray of Light! I love the Ray of Light album, but in a lot of ways, it wasn't as much a chart success as "Music" was. Yes, "Ray of Light" was critically acclaimed and won her the coveted Grammys she'd never received before -- and maybe "Music" got some passes from critics in the afterglow of "Ray of Light." But I don't think one can honestly say the last respectable thing she did was "Ray of Light.")

You are spot on! MUSIC was huge, and she was definitely as popular (if not more so) during that period than the ROL period.

[neutrocks]

All I have to say... is that there are too many people in this world who enjoy being negative and hope/watch people fail.

I wish them all success. If they don't do well, I am sure it won't be the end of their careers. They are too prominent in the music business. Older artists tend to sell less anyway, so it's not surprising they won't sell like back in their hey day.

[Shane]

All I have to say... is that there are too many people in this world who enjoy being negative and hope/watch people fail.

I wish them all success. If they don't do well, I am sure it won't be the end of their careers. They are too prominent in the music business. Older artists tend to sell less anyway, so it's not surprising they won't sell like back in their hey day.

This is unrelated, but I was just looking at Madonna's section in the Billboard Book of Top 40 Hits. With the exceptions of "Oh Father" and "Bad Girl" (not the most radio friendly tracks), she basically had non-stop hits from "Holiday" through "Take A Bow." Nothing missed the Top 40, and every single song except those two was Top 10. Amazing run, which shows she was still a force to be reckoned with on the singles charts even after the much-ballyhooed "Sex" backlash.

ETA: Oh, pardon me, I guess "Rain" peaked at #14 on Billboard.

[Guest hot revolver]

You are spot on! MUSIC was huge, and she was definitely as popular (if not more so) during that period than the ROL period.

yea! and she had a number 1 single!

[Zezwer]

in this forum you always talk like Madonna has always been nobody in USA and great in Europe, but if you look at the RIAA chart, she sold 63,5 milions album, a little bit more than Mariah and more than M. Jackson.

So it's not always been the same story in USA.

You misunderstood me then... obviously she was big in the states... but we're talking about what will come here and not the past right now right?

I believe she got Icon status in the US, but she's just not currently popular there with the masses.. radio doesn't embrace her and she doesn't sell like the big sellers there nowdays..

[erotica blu]

Every decade of Madonna’s career has drawbacks – the 80’s music isn’t as consistent in terms of structure and quality – the 90’s had the rough patch of controversy and backlash – the 00’s everything got strange – for the better American Life – for the worst the fans who hate American Life.

Whitney should do the best out of the three – at least in America. This is a real comeback album for her fans and for adults who want real R&B – instead of the hip hop / urbanized version of romance – pure sex.

[neutrocks]

You misunderstood me then... obviously she was big in the states... but we're talking about what will come here and not the past right now right?

I believe she got Icon status in the US, but she's just not currently popular there with the masses.. radio doesn't embrace her and she doesn't sell like the big sellers there nowdays..

Most older artists don't. If you look back at some of the big entertainers from all genres... Tina Turner, Bruce Springsteen, David Bowie, Elton John, Cher, Blondie, Loretta Lynn and I'm sure sleuth of others I can't think of off hand, have all had huge success into their 40's. Some of them managed to score a few hits even longer, but the fact is that they never really have the same impact and success then that era they were most popular.

Too many people are too hung up about her being successful wherever, when they should just realize she's never going to be the global phenomenon she once was. Certainly, Madonna is one of the few who still makes a dent in current pop culture, but fans need to get over being disappointed, etc. Just enjoy it. She's made some great music this last decade. She toured more times than any other decade. Even more, she's personally done more promotion for all her music than she ever did when she was in her prime.

I have no doubt Madonna will prove that she isn't going to let radio or anyone brush her aside because of her age, but the fact is they will. She will do what it takes to remain in the ranks, but it will never be like before. I've accepted that and now it's just great to see what she will come up with next. It's not like she's going anywhere just right yet. She'll still make music. She'll give us plenty to enjoy and yes, plenty of music some people will always critique. Me... I'm just going to enjoy it as long as she's willing. She's entertained me much longer than any other artist, so I have no doubt she won't let me down even if I may not like of her directions in music from time to time. Though, I usually am able to enjoy something from each project she releases.

[peter]

Well, the success of Ray of Light certainly helped Music's opening - at least by laying a foundation of support. I might add that despite having a BIGGER hit with the "Music" single, Music the album sold about 1.5 million copies LESS than Ray of Light in the U.S. and about 4 million less worldwide. So what is more indicative of reaching people? A #1 for one week or selling 30-40% more overall?

Well, you could also argue that Ray Of Light won multiple Grammies (in musical categories), but Music won none (well, for packaging but that was for visual design not the music).

I just remember in 1998, that Ray of Light had this effect that no album since then has. That year, everyone from Savage Garden to Pearl Jam were covering "Ray of Light" (the song) in concert. The album was a huge commercial success AND had critical acclaim. It had lots of award nominations and some of her best videos. I'm not saying that all these things on their own equate success, but when all of them happen simultaneously, I really do think they indicate a real PLUGGING IN to the current culture, and that is significant. It only happens with a handful of albums each decade - if that.

I think maybe we're talking past each other? My point was NOT that "Music" is superior to "Ray of Light." My point was "Music" is a high point in her career that is MORE RECENT than "Ray of Light." Certainly, "Music" rode the coattails of "Ray of Light." Sure, maybe it had an easier road because of "Ray of Light." That doesn't mean what's on it is crap and not respectable. (It's not exactly like "Who's That Girl?" and "Causing a Commotion" following the patterns of "La Isla Bonita" and "Into the Groove" is it? "Music" is very different in sound than "Ray of Light.")

I appreciate what you're saying about the zeitgeist -- I think Madonna tapped that New Age / spirituality movement with the ethereal qualities and themes on "Ray of Light." And she was an early (prominent) adopter of yoga -- one could go on. I agree with all that. It was a great album, it was well-respected, it was well-liked, it was bought by non-fans and casual fans. (I could argue that EVITA helped open *some* of those people's ears to respect her and listen to her again, but that's another road entirely.)

Like I said, I didn't hear "Ray of Light" as much on the radio. I think "Frozen" was played at my high school Prom (wtf? they should have just played the title track!). But with "Music" it was much different -- I heard it all over the radio, I heard it at dances in college. And what about the cowgirl/line-dancing with "Don't Tell Me"? Certainly DTM didn't invent those things, or even popularize them. I'm saying she still tapped into trends and rode waves of styles. Is the cowgirl image on par with the spirituality movement? No, and that's why "Ray of Light" appears to be more connected to the times. But "Music" was connected to the times, as well. Just not as 'seriously' or with as much 'gravitas.'

I hope I don't sound like I'm full of it. I'm just saying to not forget "Music" was huge and despise it because it's not as lofty as "Ray of Light."

"Ray of Light" won two Grammys in musical categories, no? She picked up another one for packaging (which "Music" also won) and another for Best Short Form Music Video. Just like I don't fault "Ray of Light" for not hitting number one, you can't fault "Music" for not converting its Grammy nomination into a win. Because, seriously, you can't even tell me it was fair for Madonna and Steely Dan to be nominated in the same category. Two different genres. I'm sure that was just a sort of legacy award for them. I don't begrudge them an award, but they shouldn't have been robbing Madonna of a best POP record award. So, I'd rather us both acknowledge that "Ray of Light" and "Music" were BOTH Grammy-nominated, and both charted well/competitively at the time of their release. (My reason for pointing out that "Music" was a #1 and "RoL" wasn't, was not so much to put down RoL as to lift "Music" up to be recognized. Again, not to say it's superior to the other, but just to help share the spotlight a bit.)

And then Madonna toured -- for the first time in eight years -- and she played songs from BOTH of those albums side by side. So they're both worthy of respect.

(And don't forget that the downloading phenomenon happened in earnest between Ray of Light and Music. People were definitely downloading "Music" illegally -- I don't think there was a legal way to download at that time, so none of that got tracked. And so album sales began their downward spiral, and "Music" would be no exception. So it's that unfair comparison kind of thing -- all album sales have been going down this decade.)

Hope you're not upset/annoyed with me. I love "Ray of Light" (though, I'll admit, it actually grew on me over the first year of its release -- "Music" was a little more of an 'instant gratification' appreciation).

[Guest Danny86]

^I think it's also part of the story that even though the illegal download phenomenon was already there, CD sales were possibly at their peak in 2000 with many acts selling bucketloads of albums, more than a million in a single week even. In fact, while 3 million today is exceptional and only Taylor Swift and Lil Wayne reaches that, back then some acts sold 3-4 times more than Madonna. But blame that on singles sales, because "Music" was supposedly the last physical single to go Platinum (not counting Idol ones I guess?) so that surely ate away album sales. Also interesting that Madonna got a lot more airplay with 2 Music singles than with 3 ROL singles, in fact ROL and TPOG got mediocre airplay, not counting the flops like BG, BS, HN and LDLHA, radio was its least supportive with Madonna up to that point... Even today the 2 Music hits are still played while ROL singles close to nothing...

But ROL did have the advantage of being promoted as an "album" because of her motherhood, spirituality etc, while I think Music the album was always overshadowed by the 2 hits and Madonna herself never sang anything else on US tv from the album (and if I'm not wrong, only DTM on Letterman and the title track at Grammy). On the other hand, more from ROL got exposed: LS at Oprah, Shanti at VMA, TPOG at VH1, NRM at Grammy, these factors surely balanced out the not so amazing airplay.

I don't think the awards should be an argument though, they nominated and awarded Madonna in 1999 because she was labeled cool and safe and the Grammies always ride the commercial wave, in a way they are telling people what's good and what's not by that, so of course that would result in sales too. They snubbed LAP (just one technical award nom) possibly because Madonna was controversial and breaking away from the safe teen pop mode.

[Nightshade]

Hope you're not upset/annoyed with me. I love "Ray of Light" (though, I'll admit, it actually grew on me over the first year of its release -- "Music" was a little more of an 'instant gratification' appreciation).

Oh no, not at all. I understand what you are saying. I never meant to imply that Music was some low point in her career. In fact, I love lots of songs on that record myself. It just didn't feel like it was as much of a break-through as Ray of Light (as far as impact in the culture goes anyway). As always, this is just my opinion.

I don't think the awards should be an argument though, they nominated and awarded Madonna in 1999 because she was labeled cool and safe and the Grammies always ride the commercial wave

I think my point with including that was she achieve some level of respect from the industry with Ray of Light. Music didn't seem to have the same reception. And while one can argue that the Grammies play it safe, I don't think that Ray of Light was by any means a safe album to nominate. A 40-year disco-pop star doing 90's electronica? Not so much. The fact that you point out that the album's singles got little airplay in relation to the singles from Music only underlines that fact that Ray of Light was pretty far from the mainstream of the time (Backstreet Boys, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, etc.)

And again, Ray of Light achieve a rare "perfect storm" of commercial, critical and substantial industry-recognized success (i.e. Grammies, MTV VMA's). The only thing I am saying is I haven't seen anything like that since that album. Even on this forum, Ray of Light ranks either on par with or just behind Like A Prayer when we do polls. I don't think that is some accident.

[Kurt420]

The way I see it AL was just another commercial transition in her career that is inevitable for many reasons. Erotica was the first time this happened. Prior to that the "norm" for her sales wise was around the 5 million and up in the US for her albums. Erotica was in the 2 million range and all of her albums up until AL were in the 2-4 million range sales wise.

Also with Erotica the singles started peaking lower and lower. Bad Girl her lowest up until that point at #36, then Bedtime Story becoming her first to miss the Top 40 since '84, then Nothing Really Matters barely scraping the Hot 100 at #93 then Hollywood completely missed the charts. Her first since Burning Up to do so. I think many of us thought Hollywood missing the Hot 100 at that time was a fluke, that she would surely rebound with the next single. Since then though it has become the "norm" for her singles to completely miss even the Bubbling Under charts. Her sales for her albums since AL have stuck around the 1-1.5 million range...roughly.

I just think she's reached a new plateau in a way. The lead singles from her studio albums will most likely do fairly well for a while, 2nd single may be a very minor hit and the third single beyond will be ignored no matter how great it is. I suspect sales for her albums will be around the 500k-1 million range for a while.

[Crystal Coffin]

Regardless of anything, I'm just thankful that Madonna isn't a nostalgia act, she's a survivor who never stops.

[Guest]

^I think it's also part of the story that even though the illegal download phenomenon was already there, CD sales were possibly at their peak in 2000 with many acts selling bucketloads of albums, more than a million in a single week even. In fact, while 3 million today is exceptional and only Taylor Swift and Lil Wayne reaches that, back then some acts sold 3-4 times more than Madonna. But blame that on singles sales, because "Music" was supposedly the last physical single to go Platinum (not counting Idol ones I guess?) so that surely ate away album sales. Also interesting that Madonna got a lot more airplay with 2 Music singles than with 3 ROL singles, in fact ROL and TPOG got mediocre airplay, not counting the flops like BG, BS, HN and LDLHA, radio was its least supportive with Madonna up to that point... Even today the 2 Music hits are still played while ROL singles close to nothing...

But ROL did have the advantage of being promoted as an "album" because of her motherhood, spirituality etc, while I think Music the album was always overshadowed by the 2 hits and Madonna herself never sang anything else on US tv from the album (and if I'm not wrong, only DTM on Letterman and the title track at Grammy). On the other hand, more from ROL got exposed: LS at Oprah, Shanti at VMA, TPOG at VH1, NRM at Grammy, these factors surely balanced out the not so amazing airplay.

I don't think the awards should be an argument though, they nominated and awarded Madonna in 1999 because she was labeled cool and safe and the Grammies always ride the commercial wave, in a way they are telling people what's good and what's not by that, so of course that would result in sales too. They snubbed LAP (just one technical award nom) possibly because Madonna was controversial and breaking away from the safe teen pop mode.

I highlighted this word because I believe this is why Whitney's & mariah's album's and singles will get more of a push in the US. Both their songs, image and stage presence (even though Mariah's is often crap) are main stream and very middle america. Madonna is too much (if so more in the past than now) a revolutionary and her strong yet sexual image is seen as a possible reason for radio stations not to play her music out of fear it will alienate their audience.

Whitney may get off to a good start with this album but I honestly don't see her being able to maintain it once the comeback fever has worn off but if she can do it more power to her.

Mariah has radio up her ass and often does good promo so until audiences get bored she will maintain an decent amount of commercial success. (speaking strictly the US though)

Hopefully Madonna will release some more killer albums/songs and keep her popularity going.

[jonski43]

I think they wanted to tie Madonna in but they can't accuse her of not trying new thing. MAriah and Whitney are just formulaic cash cows but Madonna has challenged even her fans with musical changes in direction.

I do think in part they are right in part about the identity crisis but ultimately, it's just another journalist writing what they want to read but not necessarily what is actually happening.

And the part about Christina Aguilera? Is she still going?

[Narendra Sen]

First of all, there is only one Queen of Pop

Second of all, no, Madonna will not flop

[madonnaceleb]

Mariah Carey - An open letter to a fading pop star by Sue Bergerstein

"Dear Mariah:

I hope this letter finds you. I know you have been busy lately delaying the release of your album twice after the response to the first single Obsessed has been brutal. If that wasn't bad enough, you have been using public relations tactics in trying to tell people that Obsessed never really was a single and you are delaying your poorly reviewed Memoirs of an Imperfect Angel because you don't want to give the Grammys a chance to snub you. My dear: this is desperate!

I could understand your desperation. Anybody who titles themselves "the best selling female artist in history" and can't fill a 2,500 seat arena in Las Vegas must feel defeated. But don't worry: Perhaps these people just saw your insulting performance of I'll Be There at Michael Jackson's funeral, are staying away and just need to be reminded of the gifts you used to have.

You are one of the most talented singers that has ever lived. I enjoyed your music up until Butterfly came out in 1998. You then hired rent-a-rappers, deep discounted your failing singles so they could top the charts, attempted to "act" in the worst movie the world has ever seen, made multiple trips to the loony bin, got a boob job that made you look heavy, married someone you only dated for a couple months (just as the last album started tanking), and worst of all, lost the ......

(continue here part 2 at): My link

[songkaiwen]

Mariah Carey - An open letter to a fading pop star by Sue Bergerstein

"Dear Mariah:

I hope this letter finds you. I know you have been busy lately delaying the release of your album twice after the response to the first single Obsessed has been brutal. If that wasn't bad enough, you have been using public relations tactics in trying to tell people that Obsessed never really was a single and you are delaying your poorly reviewed Memoirs of an Imperfect Angel because you don't want to give the Grammys a chance to snub you. My dear: this is desperate!

I could understand your desperation. Anybody who titles themselves "the best selling female artist in history" and can't fill a 2,500 seat arena in Las Vegas must feel defeated. But don't worry: Perhaps these people just saw your insulting performance of I'll Be There at Michael Jackson's funeral, are staying away and just need to be reminded of the gifts you used to have.

You are one of the most talented singers that has ever lived. I enjoyed your music up until Butterfly came out in 1998. You then hired rent-a-rappers, deep discounted your failing singles so they could top the charts, attempted to "act" in the worst movie the world has ever seen, made multiple trips to the loony bin, got a boob job that made you look heavy, married someone you only dated for a couple months (just as the last album started tanking), and worst of all, lost the ......

(continue here part 2 at): My link

[fak]

Given a chance so many dance songs will do well if they are given an equal chance by radio. Cascada are rising up - eve though i dont like Cascada i do hope the song goestop 5 if not no1. It would be great for the dance music industry if a real dance outfit went to no1.

In the US - ultimately, no

Everyone seems to think she's just a slut there. The demure Take a Bow was the exception to the rule and I suppose back then people would say it was a major case of damage control working with Babyface.

It's more conservative and isn't really a dance country like Britain/Europe. Despite the fact that they invented it, US DJs like Van Helden said that the UK owned house music now. A trance song like Celebration would never succeed there. Though oddly I saw Cascada high on US iTunes.

Otherwise, of course she's not relevant to the youth of today, but every dog has its day and she ensured her legend status way back when and has found her niche in touring - unless she keeps overdoing it and people become bored, but I think she'd be someone people would always want to see...

[fak]

Quite an interesting debate. I dont know why anyone is comparing these 3 together - they are all at different points in their career. Madonna is releasing a GH which is covering her entire career - this could potentially be one of the blue prints for other pop singers to to set their career by. This is going to be one of the most career defining GH out there - this is her 3rd GH album. I dont see why this should not sell a million plus in the UK or USA? Its wishful thinking but I would set my sights on global sales of 5 million and make sure this is a regular catalogue seller. M and WB have to promote it - if not the effort will all be in vain. Its WB chance to make some $ if they want it. Madonna is still Madonna in the USA. There are people who want to know what she is upto but she has never really promoted her last 3 albums in the USA that much.

Dont forget we have a Xmas market coming up and this would make an excellent gift for those who love music.

Whitney is on a comeback trail - is nt she doing Oprah? Whitney has a lot at stake. I wonder if her team realises that gone are the days of selling 5 million albums in the USA alone? Can she perform live? She has the Xmas too on her side so any romanti type album could do well. Success wont be instant - she might have to work her arse off to get past 500,000. Mariah and Madge have got used to the decresing album sales.

As for MC - she just released a album last year so why she is releasing another studio album so soon? She needs to maintain her last album sales - she might have lost the much needed "historic" no1's she has got used to having. I expect she will dip a bit more in success although now she has the Xmas market on her side.

I think the only one young fans are genuinely interested in is mariah carey. Whitney and Madonna really need to focus on more mature fans. I think HC would have driven off any more mature fans of M but the GH could be the tret to win them back.

[fak]

Did nt My love is Your Love debut at a fairly low position but then bounced backup?

[Narendra Sen]

Third of all, amazing rhyme!

Fourth of all, WE'VE GOT NO TIME!

somebody who appreciates poetry

[Nightshade]

As for MC - she just released a album last year so why she is releasing another studio album so soon? She needs to maintain her last album sales - she might have lost the much needed "historic" no1's she has got used to having. I expect she will dip a bit more in success although now she has the Xmas market on her side.

I suspect Mimi is in a panic to release something because industry album sales are continuing to tank and her ability to shift huge numbers of copies is receding by the day. I am not sure yet if her album will be strong enough to survive the 4th quarter's mammoth release schedule. She could suffer the same fate as Janet's 20 Y.O. - which certainly sold more than it should've by having a late 2006 release but eventually was out of the Top 75 by Christmas time. I think it will be interesting to see if "Obsessed" will continue gaining at radio up until her album's release, or if the second single will be launched any time soon. Mariah's opening week could still be decent because she will definitely do lots of promo, however if her next song doesn't take off immediately at radio, I am wondering if they will bump her album back again.

Did nt My love is Your Love debut at a fairly low position but then bounced backup?

Not really. #13 was its debut and peak on the Billboard 200. However, it held up quite well due to aggressive single promotion and had good long-term sales. I think it went 4x platinum in the US. Not sure how it did overseas.

[Phantom Pain]

Mariah Carey - An open letter to a fading pop star by Sue Bergerstein

"Dear Mariah:

I hope this letter finds you. I know you have been busy lately delaying the release of your album twice after the response to the first single Obsessed has been brutal. If that wasn't bad enough, you have been using public relations tactics in trying to tell people that Obsessed never really was a single and you are delaying your poorly reviewed Memoirs of an Imperfect Angel because you don't want to give the Grammys a chance to snub you. My dear: this is desperate!

I could understand your desperation. Anybody who titles themselves "the best selling female artist in history" and can't fill a 2,500 seat arena in Las Vegas must feel defeated. But don't worry: Perhaps these people just saw your insulting performance of I'll Be There at Michael Jackson's funeral, are staying away and just need to be reminded of the gifts you used to have.

You are one of the most talented singers that has ever lived. I enjoyed your music up until Butterfly came out in 1998. You then hired rent-a-rappers, deep discounted your failing singles so they could top the charts, attempted to "act" in the worst movie the world has ever seen, made multiple trips to the loony bin, got a boob job that made you look heavy, married someone you only dated for a couple months (just as the last album started tanking), and worst of all, lost the ......

(continue here part 2 at): My link

[peter]

Quite an interesting debate. I dont know why anyone is comparing these 3 together - they are all at different points in their career. Madonna is releasing a GH which is covering her entire career - this could potentially be one of the blue prints for other pop singers to to set their career by.

That is, if they can last 25+ years in the pop arena and produce the same quality of material as Madonna. No easy feat. (But I appreciate your points -- you make some very good ones. I'm just saying, the company M keeps in the way of peers in the industry keeps diminishing. Not sure how many Michael Jacksons, Madonnas, and Princes there will be in the industry 25 years from now. I'm sure there will be some stars with some longevity -- but I don't know if they will have enjoyed the success of their predecessors.)

[Guest SuperBriGuy]

She hasn't done a full-on ROCK album yet. She hasn't done an industrial album yet (although if she did it would be industrial-pop no doubt), nor has she done a 70's style soul album. I think there are a number of things she could still try. I don't think it has anything to do with "proving" anything, but I've always regarded her as a true artist who is pushing limits and let's face it, she really hasn't been doing that in the music world. I LOVED COADF - probably almost as much as ROL (almost), but it was dance-electronica - and although the production was superb, I didn't feel like I was being taken anywhere new artistically. And she doesn't need to even do that with every album, but one a decade would be nice.

And by the way, I loved the "Hung Up" video too.

Holy shit, that's what I want her to do...an industrial album helmed by none other than the brilliant Trent Reznor. And I really don't think it'll be that much of a problem for her to do...ROL had so many moments that just SCREAMED NiN.

[Guest]

"Even Christina Aguilera—practically a pop descendant of Houston in some cases—eyeballed the sea change and continues exacting a foolproof gameplan so as not to sound so irrelevant upon her return."

Someone actually wrote that and they were SERIOUS?!?!?!? :lmao: :lmao:

what a turd.

As for madonna, i'm not worried. she'll sell modest numbers but continue to tour briskly and release moderate hit records and enjoy the rest of her life as a pop icon. She's got nothing to prove and nothing to worry about.

Whitney is going to sell big with this album, because everyone is gunning for her comeback. They want to see her shine again. Once they get past the luster of her Oprah-approved (gag) survival story, and realize that the album is just so-so, that it has no hit songs and that her voice, while still lovely in that ragged way, is heavily degraded, processed and autotuned, i think the album will just sorta disappear, like all her other albums have, from the public conscious. She'll continue to occasionally release a record and do just fine.

And Mimi? I think she's going to go the way of Janet. People are tired of her pussy popping. Her songs are lame and now people are starting to actually see it and the hits are fading. Since this is pretty much all she knows at this point, she'll probably release a few floppish records like Janet, have another breakdown, then try and mature up for an Oprah-approved (gag again) comeback. it's really her only option - unless she decided to start singing, gasp, good songs... but i doubt that will happen any time soon.