Madonna's relevancy

[Ai Papi Si.]

First of all Danny, I don't get this aggressive attitude you're giving me, as I was pretty civil and calm with the way I responded to you and I never implied that my comments about fans "settling" were directed toward you in specific, yet you're giving me the business. If you want to have a convesation about this, don't act like a fucking baby. Moving on...

In that case, why was Janet's tour a flop? She used to be a huge tour draw and like I said in one of the earliest posts in this thread, the RN tour was more likely bigger than BAT in terms of commercial success. If people flock to Madonna show because of her name, doesn't that mean she still has that IT that her contemporaries lost? And why is that not "relevant"?

Do you really think people in the biz think like that as fans on forums, who set fireworks for a #1 single but dismiss tour success of the big acts as something that comes by itself, as in Madonna's case, performing ITG and LAP? If that was so easy, why is it always the same 5 acts getting the huge touring success?

Janet to me was never a contemporary of Madonna's. Success for her was limited to the US. All I hear about Janet is how badly she does worldwide. So I don't even think of Janet hwen I think of Madonna. Her tour flopped because she truly, utterly lost the plot. Madonna has not.

And there you are again, the usual "some fans are happy to SETTLE FOR CRAP"... WTF?! I get that for you "Die Another Day" is the absolute peak of her career (even though it actually brought NOTHING new FOR HER because it was the continuation of the Music album and I'm glad to reference Bad Robot with that) but why the bashing of those who enjoy her stuff now and ARE NOT FORCING THEMSELVES to do that?

Basically you're saying her output is not good enough for you and you're putting a = between that and "relevance". So if YOU personally feel she's not good enough, then no numbers and critical acclaim could be enough to balance that out to make her "relevant", is that correct?

Wow. No, I referenced Die Another Day because it was a good example of her making a really unconventional song and having it turn into a moderate success for her because people were dying to hear music from her. And I do consider it a continuation of Music yes, but it was still a very different twist on what she was doing before and despite some fans hating it, I think it was a very creative single. So shoot me.

I don't reference numbers anymore because like Kurt has been saying to me over and over, Hard Candy was a success. Okay, wonderful. Congratulations Madonna. I think there is a certain amount of buzz that follows Madonna still, but it has dimmed considerably and I think regardless of what I think about Hard Candy, her efforts to tap into the Timbaland world, while not unsuccessful entirely, were pretty much forgotten about within months. What is your theory?

You're not pointing out any facts, just once again letting me know you don't like what she does now. I don't see how "Human Nature" can be a counter example when it reused the "express yourself" message and Madonna basically sang over a hip hop sample (and not saying that because of the R&B thing either), and it's hardly the first time with CS/4M/R that she sings nonsense or fun lyrics, the majority of the Music album is vapid lyrics and has no message... You bash me for saying she was always pop and R&B, but I say you're really overrating her past work if you claim she always had something to say. How many songs on TIC fall into that category? And are "Drowned World", "Mer Girl", "Paradise" or "Easy Ride" a typical representation of her work? And even I am bored of repeating this, but HC is not a message-less vapid album CS and 4M implies, but her singles were ALWAYS the accessible ones with rare examples.

The only reason I used the latest work is becuase well, its the most glaring example. I can even reference Confessions, which I love, for lazy juvenile lyrics. That album was saved by really amazing melodies and hooks. And its interesting that you're only using her 2000's work to gage her message when I specifically went into the mid 90s to point out that she was putting effort into what she said all the way up until American Life (although it was a bit clumsy at that point). The lyrics on Music may seem vapid to you but I think a lot of them are great. She doesn't have to be reciting Ray Of Light - style poetry all the time for her lyrics to be good to me. But comparing her poon to lollipops or tlaking about her booty getting down just don't do it for me. Again, shoot me. I think she was trying a bit too hard by that point.

And let me ask you this, what's the need of this "I still love her and support her but it's a fact her career is not the same anymore" attitude? Why are you shoving her down on your throat if she doesn't satisfy you anymore? And by saying she's not the same anymore, do you think that makes you an "objective" fan? Because this is the same attitude the same 5 people are trying to impose on those who are not like "oh I wish it was like the old days again" and is pretty tiresome at this point. You want to get impressed by Madonna the same way you did some years ago when you became a fan, but when she doesn't do that, you immediately say the problem is with her. No, you don't have to like her everything she does, and contrary to popular assumption, I don't like everything she does either. I'm not a huge fan of the "Celebration" song and for me it pales in comparison to anything on COADF and HC but I don't start thinking like "oh this is a lazy song, she's so bored now, why can't she care? what is she gonna happen? are the princesses really stealing her crown?"...

When did I call you a NON-objective fan? And when did I say I wish it were the old days? You really have an issue with putting words into my mouth.

Madonna has unimpressed me many times over the years I've been a fan, going all the way back to 2000 when she did that ridiculous cover of American Pie or in 2003 when she did the embarassing Me Against The Music and those stupid books. Or in 2004 with hte terrible Reinvention Tour. Stop painting me as this idiot with no perspective. I don't think anyone's going to steal her crown. Impossible. I just think that in the last year or 2 she's been in a creative lull and it hasn't totally damaged her career but it has certainly been pointed out by critics just as much. So if you wanna reference the CRITICS of all people, I can pull up a bunch of articles from reputable publications that talk about the Madonna of now and how she's changed. Not always for the better.

Because, why is it better if she gets great reviews (which is BUZZ) for an album, but not a show? A while ago you said "HC was one of those albums nobody cared for" but maybe, just maybe, at this point a tour gets more attention from the GENERAL PUBLIC than a CD? There aren't even pop albums anymore that get any attention anyway, so it's not even the gauge of relevance in any possible way by now. And actually she did get some trashing reviews for the RIT in the US and the S&ST in the UK so her tours are not universally acclaimed, but there definitely was an upward trend in the reviews of the 2008 S&ST US leg which was noted in the tour forum back then.

Because albums are STILL a big deal. Just because they don't sell doesnt mean people aren't still downloading them and stealing htem. People WANT to hear music. If the music is good, the tours are going to be even more of a draw. That does make sense doesn't it? Madonna's reviews for HC were mediocre and her tour was adored. Okay, so what? The tour was a big deal. It's what has kept her in the spotlight. But not her music. Get what I mean?

How is pushing forward the industry with new and groundbreaking deals NOT making anyone relevant? I think it's ridiculous to imply Madonna and Prince can get the biggest slice out of the industry BECAUSE they were huge in the 80s. And I don't see why any of that should come below kids playing a songs on their iPods on the way to school or you driving to work and hearing a song 10 times on radio while driving. Like I said, that's an ancient way of thinking when it comes to relevance, just because radio makes a hit for you (like, Mariah's "Obsessed") it won't be considered as a relevant thing for 2009.

Madonna would not be on the level she is today if it was all depended on the 15 huge hits she scored from 1984 to 1990. If she stopped making new stuff after 1990 and had to live on the TIC era hits forever, she'd obviously be still above Cyndi, Donna etc but would not be creating the buzz and earning trendsetting contracts for herself with that.

Well when have I argued that Madonna is not still A-list? I guess you just don't really get what I mean. And maybe I don't get what you mean. FOr me, her window of hype has eroded cosndierably in the last 3 or so years. That is ALL I am getting at. I am not saying she's lost her mojo completely. I think she's just lost it lately - STRICTLY musically. And again I will say that I am not just talking about Hard Candy. Although I did enjoy HC in parts, and loved hte 2 albums before that, I will admit that all 3 of them had a distinct air of fluffiness about them that wasn't seen prior with Music and its predecessors.

Anyway...

[Guest Pud Whacker]

It's because Madonna has been malcontent.

how do you know whats floating her boat these days? got her phone number? give it 2 me, id like to ask her a few things.

[Ai Papi Si.]

This is confirming what I say. You're missing the eras and you're blaming that on Madonna, ignoring that things can't be like what they were. Gaga HAD to do the era and visual stuff because she's a NEW artist breaking in and has record label backing to achieve that. But it's weird to expect Madonna to continue with all that just because it's always been like that. Her realizing the need of change is actually a sign of relevance. She is NOT abandoning musical projects if she BUILDS A TOUR AROUND THE RECORD! I know it's a matter of opinion, but come on, I get more joy from a 2 hour long Madonna show than 3-4-5 Madonna videos that can be watched on the pc screen.

Well I agree with you here, that I do miss the times when MAodnna would make good videos, but really, is that so bad? And I only referenced the awful Gaga because she really gives the fans a lot to play with. I miss that about Madonna and that's one reason non-fans may see her as "over" because well, all she does is tour and release really frilly fluffy videos. I dont see it that way of course. But I do wonder f its because she's abandoning record labels in favor of touring or if its because she's just really sick of it? I don't have the answers, I guess you have them all.

[loomer]

And I do consider it a continuation of Music yes, but it was still a very different twist on what she was doing before and despite some fans hating it, I think it was a very creative single. So shoot me.

[IsaacHarris]

Does Madge's Relevancy effect Your Opinion of Her?

[Kurt420]

Well unlike you, I don't break Madonna's relevancy down to numbers or chart positions. That to me means absolutely nothing. To me, Hard Candy's success lasted all but a few months. We never heard anything about it again. Glad that it sold well, though.

Relevant in the touring industry? ALways has been, probably always will be. Relevant in terms of still being able to sell a solid 4 million around the world? I guess. Good for her. But releasing a mere 2 videos for the album, making an oddly pathetic album sleeve, completely abandoning musical projects in favor of touring (which is fine!)just seems to me like her focus is somewhere else. I brought up Lady Gaga and Beyonce NOT because they have hit singles. I bring them up because they're contemporaries of Madonna who have generated a considerable amount of palpable buzz just by releasing great videos, putting a lot of work into the visuals, and really fixating on putting out the best possible product for the fans. And this is coming from someone who pretty much detests Lady Gaga's music.

I do think buzz is definable. Have we all forgotten what it was like before American Life came out? Madonna was "the pulse" right up until that moment. Things aren't the same anymore not because she's flopped a whole bunch of times. It's because she's not making much of an effort to build on the projects she's created like she used to. Even Music, with its 3 singles, had an "era" feel to it. She last did that with Confessions, only she released 1 good video and pretty much slept her way through the other 3. I mean, that's fine if she doesn't wanna make videos, but I'd rather her just pull a Trent Reznor and not make any at all if she hates doing them so much now. This kind of "brushing off" of the mediums she used to dominate is what makes her seem irrelevant to me. She's putting her efforts somewhere else.

You see I don't think you can say numbers and chart positions mean nothing when determining somebody's relevancy in the current music scene. A big part of being relevant is if people are willing to spend their hard earned money on you, that's the bottom line. You can be talked about until the cows come home (and buzz IS important too...don't get me wrong) but if you're talked about and talked about but you aren't generating revenue for anybody then you won't be talked about for much longer. There have been acts in the past who's hype doesn't match their actual "success" (or lack thereof) and we don't hear about them anymore.

YOU may have liked HC for only a few months and YOU may find her work lazy in comparison to Gaga and Beyonce and that's fine. You are obviously entitled to feel however you want. Fortunately for her though, her commercial success in ALL areas recently doesn't reflect that opinion. I keep reading how Madonna was still "the pulse" in the Music era and that I definitely do not agree with. Madonna had incredibly good buzz surrounding her at the time after the success of ROL which IMO made people more open to hearing her "Music" when it was released. But "the pulse"?? No...I don't think Madonna has been that since 1985. Just as many thought in 2000 that she was old, past it, desperate and needed to let it go as they do now. In fact many people have had that mentality since 1993.

And you are right, she is putting her efforts in other places now because that's what EVERYBODY (if they are smart) will be doing within the next few years. Of course she's AHEAD (as usual) of these novices so she's got a step up on 'em (again as usual). But does putting more focus into live shows vs. music videos make her irrelevant?? Or do YOU just not like that she's not paying as much attention to her videos. Again, regardless of your personal opinion on it, those videos helped inspire enough people to buy Hard Candy to push it up to one of the highest selling albums of the year last year. I think many of us who grew up in the "golden age" of MTV are having a hard time with the fact that the "golden age" is over. Videos aren't irrelevant by any means, but she conquered and changed that medium when it REALLY mattered. Video was THE means for promotion to sell your album...which was her top source of income...more than the tours in those days. Now of course, that's all reversed and where she's focusing her efforts is a reflection of that change. Can you blame her?

[Ai Papi Si.]

You see I don't think you can say numbers and chart positions mean nothing when determining somebody's relevancy in the current music scene. A big part of being relevant is if people are willing to spend their hard earned money on you, that's the bottom line. You can be talked about until the cows come home (and buzz IS important too...don't get me wrong) but if you're talked about and talked about but you aren't generating revenue for anybody then you won't be talked about for much longer. There have been acts in the past who's hype doesn't match their actual "success" (or lack thereof) and we don't hear about them anymore.

YOU may have liked HC for only a few months and YOU may find her work lazy in comparison to Gaga and Beyonce and that's fine. You are obviously entitled to feel however you want. Fortunately for her though, her commercial success in ALL areas recently doesn't reflect that opinion. I keep reading how Madonna was still "the pulse" in the Music era and that I definitely do not agree with. Madonna had incredibly good buzz surrounding her at the time after the success of ROL which IMO made people more open to hearing her "Music" when it was released. But "the pulse"?? No...I don't think Madonna has been that since 1985. Just as many thought in 2000 that she was old, past it, desperate and needed to let it go as they do now. In fact many people have had that mentality since 1993.

And you are right, she is putting her efforts in other places now because that's what EVERYBODY (if they are smart) will be doing within the next few years. Of course she's AHEAD (as usual) of these novices so she's got a step up on 'em (again as usual). But does putting more focus into live shows vs. music videos make her irrelevant?? Or do YOU just not like that she's not paying as much attention to her videos. Again, regardless of your personal opinion on it, those videos helped inspire enough people to buy Hard Candy to push it up to one of the highest selling albums of the year last year. I think many of us who grew up in the "golden age" of MTV are having a hard time with the fact that the "golden age" is over. Videos aren't irrelevant by any means, but she conquered and changed that medium when it REALLY mattered. Video was THE means for promotion to sell your album...which was her top source of income...more than the tours in those days. Now of course, that's all reversed and where she's focusing her efforts is a reflection of that change. Can you blame her?

I think the power of video is just as important as it was 15 years ago. A little something called YouTube has reinvigorated the medium. How quickly we all forget that 4 Minutes was on its way to becoming one of the most viewed videos of all time on YouTube before Warner pulled it. We're talking close to 100 million views by now had it not been yanked. For all the flack I give 4 Minutes, it was the perfect video for her to release at the time, and it paid off. So I don't agree that video is unimportant or that its over now. All you have to do is search "Beyonce" or "Kings of Leon" on youtube to see how many millions of people still love to watch music videos.

[Skin]

Cant we all just agree that was is "relevant" is all subjective. If she is importaint in your life then she is relevant. At the end of the day how relevant is the person on top in the music world right now anyway? Lets take Lady Gaga. She has sold, what 4 million around the world about with her first album so far? Correct me if I am wrong on that. But there are 6 billion people on this planet! Thats 5,996,000,000 (did I figure that out right? ) that dont give enough of a shit to buy her music. Hardly relevant when looking at the big picture. So if you want to look at it that way.....Der.

[GimmeSomeMo]

Honestly I think some of her fans wanted the HC/S&S era to flop commercially since they didn't like it much. I guess if it had flopped they figure Madonna will come to her senses and "get back on track". But that didn't happen, everything about the era was a success. The ONLY aspect that didn't equal the COADF era is critical acclaim, it was more mixed for HC than COADF.

If it HAD flopped? :lmao:

[Guest Danny86]

First of all Danny, I don't get this aggressive attitude you're giving me, as I was pretty civil and calm with the way I responded to you and I never implied that my comments about fans "settling" were directed toward you in specific, yet you're giving me the business. If you want to have a convesation about this, don't act like a fucking baby. Moving on...

Even if you were not specific towards me, I just don't see how you consider stuff like that as part of a civil conversation. Things like that along with "they give Madonna fans a bad name" has been out of control here lately and I'm just tired of that. But apparently that kinda behavior has been encouraged in this thread, but I can't do much about that other than attitude, can I?

Because albums are STILL a big deal. Just because they don't sell doesnt mean people aren't still downloading them and stealing htem. People WANT to hear music. If the music is good, the tours are going to be even more of a draw. That does make sense doesn't it? Madonna's reviews for HC were mediocre and her tour was adored. Okay, so what? The tour was a big deal. It's what has kept her in the spotlight. But not her music. Get what I mean?

Well, we can't know how many downloaders are actually listening to full albums, but if we go by actual sales, the difference between people who get one song or all 12 is huge. And even if people want music, that doesn't mean artists are going to give them forever. It's pure speculation, but we might be nearing to a point where they won't be investing time and money in recording "more songs than necessary" and I do think Madonna could end up doing that as well, she might just record 7-8 songs she would sing on tour anyway.

I really don't get the "tour kept her in spotlight but not her music". Why does the tour have to be in the "something else" category? You say visuals and videos are part of an era, but then why can't tour be the vehicle for the music? You go to her show and hear her songs, and half of them happens to be from the new record. So in that sense, her music wrapped in the tour kept her in the spotlight. When they review a tour, the music is still a big part of it, she didn't get praised only because she looked hot and danced more than before. Plus the much discussed silly lyrics of HC songs were not cut from those either so...

And it's not like she can do anything other than that, if she's shunned from radio and even her duet with Justin can't reach the same airplay as a non-event single by Mariah or Jordin Sparks.

All you have to do is search "Beyonce" or "Kings of Leon" on youtube to see how many millions of people still love to watch music videos.

Yet, "most watched video on YouTube" is never mentioned in press releases. Because the artist sees nothing out of that, it's all free for the viewer and they didn't have to spend on money, neither they had to watch MTV for hours to tape it while they saw all the commercials. It's not a consolation for them if they hear "but your video was the most discussed topic on twitter and perez". So I'd say it is very different, but I'm not saying that it's better. Just that it is an excuse for pop artists like Madonna to abandon all that and focus on something that cannot be got for free, tours.

So if the next album will have videos like "Miles Away", or Madonna might start premiering songs on her shows, I don't think that will be a testament to her totally losing it musically. But we'll see.

[Kurt420]

If it HAD flopped?

I am completely open to hearing how the HC/S&S era was not a success for Madonna as long as it doesn't involve your personal opinion in any way.

[Guest]

Ok may I ask Danny and 12;51 are either of you under 20? Because I was 14/15 when COADF came out and 17 when HC came out. During both of those times People at my high school were discussing Madonna alot! And I heard HU and Sorry, 4M and GI2M being played on ipods and mobiles all the time during lunch! Just because Gaga, Pink and that get lots of attention right now doesn't mean Madonna is irrelevant. Celebration has been played alot on NZ's main music channels. I'd say Madonna is still very relevant, I'm guessing those who are saying she isn't wish she was hitting #1 with every single (Even though she practically did with HU and 4M). Besides of which how is this topic relevant? or productive? I think if Madonna wanted a song to hit #1 worldwide again she could, because so far she has made a 27 year career in a fickle buisness, cut the woman some slack!

[Guest SoUnusual]

Ok may I ask Danny and 12;51 are either of you under 20? Because I was 14/15 when COADF came out and 17 when HC came out. During both of those times People at my high school were discussing Madonna alot! And I heard HU and Sorry, 4M and GI2M being played on ipods and mobiles all the time during lunch! Just because Gaga, Pink and that get lots of attention right now doesn't mean Madonna is irrelevant. Celebration has been played alot on NZ's main music channels. I'd say Madonna is still very relevant, I'm guessing those who are saying she isn't wish she was hitting #1 with every single (Even though she practically did with HU and 4M). Besides of which how is this topic relevant? or productive? I think if Madonna wanted a song to hit #1 worldwide again she could, because so far she has made a 27 year career in a fickle buisness, cut the woman some slack!

You must have gone to a white school! Cos I know they are not talking Madonna at mangere college

[Guest]

You must have gone to a white school! Cos I know they are not talking Madonna at mangere college

ewwww south Auckland!? I went to school at Lynfield, in west Auckland, so mostly trashy white people and Indians (me being a trashy white dude)

[Guest SoUnusual]

ewwww south Auckland!? I went to school at Lynfield, in west Auckland, so mostly trashy white people and Indians (me being a trashy white dude)

Okay lets make this clear, I don't live in SOUTH AUCKLAND! Lynfield is probably the more upper class part of West Auckland (If there are upper class parts of West Auckland)

[Guest Danny86]

Ok may I ask Danny and 12;51 are either of you under 20? Because I was 14/15 when COADF came out and 17 when HC came out. During both of those times People at my high school were discussing Madonna alot! And I heard HU and Sorry, 4M and GI2M being played on ipods and mobiles all the time during lunch! Just because Gaga, Pink and that get lots of attention right now doesn't mean Madonna is irrelevant. Celebration has been played alot on NZ's main music channels. I'd say Madonna is still very relevant, I'm guessing those who are saying she isn't wish she was hitting #1 with every single (Even though she practically did with HU and 4M). Besides of which how is this topic relevant? or productive? I think if Madonna wanted a song to hit #1 worldwide again she could, because so far she has made a 27 year career in a fickle buisness, cut the woman some slack!

We're both 23 and I didn't claim kids weren't discussing it, just that her chances are limited for that now because she does not get played on the radio. But if they do, it's a nice bonus, but my point was, there are a lot of things going on for an artist to be called relevant than just being talked among kids or not.

[merton]

I don' t think that kids listen to beatles,so they are not relevant in pop culture?????

it's not right to say that an artist is relavant or not only if the youth listen to him....so myles cyrus is very relevant nowadays????...... madonna outside the USA is very very popular and relevant,more than britney,BYP.WEST,JAY Z,PINK,BEYONCè....in usa she MUST do promotion...look to the success of b.streisand or m.buble,is album is selling a lot,but he doesn't have a hit in the hot 100

Edited October 21, 2009 by merton

[Guest nothingfails0603]

I think the power of video is just as important as it was 15 years ago. A little something called YouTube has reinvigorated the medium. How quickly we all forget that 4 Minutes was on its way to becoming one of the most viewed videos of all time on YouTube before Warner pulled it. We're talking close to 100 million views by now had it not been yanked. For all the flack I give 4 Minutes, it was the perfect video for her to release at the time, and it paid off. So I don't agree that video is unimportant or that its over now. All you have to do is search "Beyonce" or "Kings of Leon" on youtube to see how many millions of people still love to watch music videos.

I think it's totally different and has nowhere the impact it had back when videos were being played on MTV. Back when MTV played videos, you were forced to check it out and watch it. Now fans just watch the artists they like, nothing more or less. It doesn't exactly help an artist reach a wider audience. If Like A Prayer or Justify My Love were made today, the impact and hoopla would be minimal compared to how they were when they were made because nobody really seems to care about videos anymore... and I still believe that is a huge factor in the demise of album sales. Constant video airplay leads to the audience connecting with the artist more which leads to wanting to buy their album. Taking video airplay out of the equation and it takes a lot of the image away which plays a big factor in differentiating someone who likes the songs and someone who likes the artist itself.

[Guest nothingfails0603]

Ok may I ask Danny and 12;51 are either of you under 20? Because I was 14/15 when COADF came out and 17 when HC came out. During both of those times People at my high school were discussing Madonna alot! And I heard HU and Sorry, 4M and GI2M being played on ipods and mobiles all the time during lunch! Just because Gaga, Pink and that get lots of attention right now doesn't mean Madonna is irrelevant. Celebration has been played alot on NZ's main music channels. I'd say Madonna is still very relevant, I'm guessing those who are saying she isn't wish she was hitting #1 with every single (Even though she practically did with HU and 4M). Besides of which how is this topic relevant? or productive? I think if Madonna wanted a song to hit #1 worldwide again she could, because so far she has made a 27 year career in a fickle buisness, cut the woman some slack!

I'm a decade older than you. I graduated high school not long after ROL came out. But to be honest, at the all-boys school, the only people I knew who talked about Madonna are the ones who are now openly gay. I am NOT stereotyping even, but I only knew about three other fans besides myself there, and two of them I know for sure are gay since they even say so on their profiles now.

Of course, an all-boy school may be the difference, but it seemed like Madonna was seen as a gay thing then and all the kids were either into Beastie Boys and Snoop Dogg or they were into Marilyn Manson/NIN. Madonna, nor Celine nor Mariah nor Shania nor any of the big 90's divas barely registered on any radars at my school except for the few kids who eventually came out of the closet.

[Kurt420]

I'm a decade older than you. I graduated high school not long after ROL came out. But to be honest, at the all-boys school, the only people I knew who talked about Madonna are the ones who are now openly gay. I am NOT stereotyping even, but I only knew about three other fans besides myself there, and two of them I know for sure are gay since they even say so on their profiles now.

Of course, an all-boy school may be the difference,but it seemed like Madonna was seen as a gay thing then and all the kids were either into Beastie Boys and Snoop Dogg or they were into Marilyn Manson/NIN. Madonna, nor Celine nor Mariah nor Shania nor any of the big 90's divas barely registered on any radars at my school except for the few kids who eventually came out of the closet.

That's pretty much how it was at my school too and I'm the same age as you. That's why when people talk about how she was "on the pulse" and sooooo relevant back then with the youth compared to now I just roll my eyes. Most of the people saying that must not be from the US or are 5 years+ younger and rode in on the "comeback" wave of ROL/Music, when she was getting respect finally that she had never gotten before. By that point she had done many things that were worthy of that respect but after 15 years people were finally like "OK. I guess we kinda HAVE to acknowledge her now" kind of thing. It had nothing to do with her being on the "pulse". It was more a testament to the amount of time she'd been "on top" despite having the shit kicked out of her for a good portion of the 90's and to an extent her entire career. I can assure anybody that in the US in the 1990's, Madonna may've had her finger on the "pulse" with the gays but with a lot of the YOUTH she was little more than a washed up whore that could barely sing (my friend used to always say to me "Get OVER her already! She's an 80's girl. Leave her there." back then...he was straight of course). And if we really want to take it back, my older sister has a high school yearbook from 1989 that has a section where the seniors voted on "who's hot/who's not" kind of thing and both MJ and M were "who's not".....so yes even by THAT time she was starting to lose a bit of the "cool" factor with the youth.

[Ai Papi Si.]

You all do realize that all of this talk is just anecdotal and means squat right?

Madonna being relevant has more to do with the work she's doing rather than how some pimply group of high school freshmen see her. I can go back to periods during the mid 90s during her coma-inducing You'll See era and theorize that she was in a similar lull career wise that she's in now. Her career goes in waves. By the Music era it seemed like she was the most respected female in pop. In 2008? She was defined by plastic surgery, divorce, A-Rod's big wang, fishnets and top hats, and oh, that song with Twinkerlake. Her music was a fraction of the equation. Her real relevance was in the gossip columns. Personally I enjoyed 2008 because we were seeing her become a new woman right before our eyes. But musically, no one remembers anything except Timbaland's fart horns.

Anyway, go ahead and rip me to shreds.

[Guest dicktracy]

Main Entry: rel·e·vant

Pronunciation: \ˈre-lə-vənt\

Function: adjective

Etymology: Medieval Latin relevant-, relevans, from Latin, present participle of relevare to raise up

Date: 1560

1 a : having significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand b : affording evidence tending to prove or disprove the matter at issue or under discussion <relevant testimony> c : having social relevance

Main Entry: rel·e·vance

Pronunciation: \ˈre-lə-vən(t)s\

Function: noun

Date: 1733

1 a : relation to the matter at hand b : practical and especially social applicability : pertinence <giving relevance to college courses>

[Ai Papi Si.]

Let me add that I think Madonna has always been "relevant" in some form. Where MJ and Prince were pretty much over and never really recovered, I think Madonna has always been someone that people are generally interested in. I just don't think she's attracting the kind of attention she was getting say 3.5 years ago where she was just a woman doing her thing. now it's like people are more dismissive of her than ever. It's almost like people are just wanting Madonna to get old and be an antique and stop bothering with music. I think it's lame, and I wanna hear more passion from her, because I see it onstage, I just don't hear it in the music. Anyway blah balh blah...

[Guest Danny86]

You all do realize that all of this talk is just anecdotal and means squat right?

Madonna being relevant has more to do with the work she's doing rather than how some pimply group of high school freshmen see her. I can go back to periods during the mid 90s during her coma-inducing You'll See era and theorize that she was in a similar lull career wise that she's in now. Her career goes in waves. By the Music era it seemed like she was the most respected female in pop. In 2008? She was defined by plastic surgery, divorce, A-Rod's big wang, fishnets and top hats, and oh, that song with Twinkerlake. Her music was a fraction of the equation. Her real relevance was in the gossip columns. Personally I enjoyed 2008 because we were seeing her become a new woman right before our eyes. But musically, no one remembers anything except Timbaland's fart horns.

Anyway, go ahead and rip me to shreds.

Well, you can repeat it all you want, but being relevant will not mean "When She Makes Exciting Music For Me Me Me".

Oh and I think many would debate if it was the music that got Madonna the headlines in 2000-2002 or

Rupert Everett-TNBT movie flop-pregnant with Rocco-giving birth to Rocco-Ali G in video-female strippers in video-Kylie Minogue shirt-Britney Spears shirt-getting in shape so quickly after pregnancy-marrying Guy Ritchie-husband filming violent and banned video for underperforming single-moving to England-first tour in 8 years-tickets selling fast-fans angry about no hits-Madonna looking old with manly arms on tour-no new songs on GHV2-filming a remake with husband-movie flopping-filming cameo in 20th Bond movie-both getting Razzies-worst actress of the century Razzie and last but not least did Madonna abandon America?

I'm really not sure if the MUSIC outshone all that (and the fact that she was still played on US radio like anyone else for the last time) and none of the above were the main reason why people talked about her.

And probably she was the "most respected female in pop" because of the fact that she was above 40 and competing with artists half her age like Britney or Christina on the charts, not because she brought European sounds to the US.

[Ai Papi Si.]

Well, you can repeat it all you want, but being relevant will not mean "When She Makes Exciting Music For Me Me Me".

Oh and I think many would debate if it was the music that got Madonna the headlines in 2000-2002 or

Rupert Everett-TNBT movie flop-pregnant with Rocco-giving birth to Rocco-Ali G in video-female strippers in video-Kylie Minogue shirt-Britney Spears shirt-getting in shape so quickly after pregnancy-marrying Guy Ritchie-husband filming violent and banned video for underperforming single-moving to England-first tour in 8 years-tickets selling fast-fans angry about no hits-Madonna looking old with manly arms on tour-no new songs on GHV2-filming a remake with husband-movie flopping-filming cameo in 20th Bond movie-both getting Razzies-worst actress of the century Razzie and last but not least did Madonna abandon America?

I'm really not sure if the MUSIC outshone all that (and the fact that she was still played on US radio like anyone else for the last time) and none of the above were the main reason why people talked about her.

And probably she was the "most respected female in pop" because of the fact that she was above 40 and competing with artists half her age like Britney or Christina on the charts, not because she brought European sounds to the US.

No one looks at the earlier part of this decade as being exciting times in Madonna's personal life, let's not make stuff seem any more important than it was. Madonna could have gotten away with murder during that era. In fact I remember one of those stupid shows on E! did a blurb on Madonna in 2001 during her tour and gushed over what now us fans consider Madonna's most severe and haggard physique. People mag did the same. She was America's sweetheart at that point.

And Music was exciting for everyone. It wasn't until Swept Away when attitudes about her changed and the tide turned. Then after that it was never the same IMO.

Btw, are you always this pompous? Jesus. It's just a conversation. No need to patronize me all the time. And you wonder why people have their knives out when they talk to you.

[Kurt420]

You all do realize that all of this talk is just anecdotal and means squat right?

Madonna being relevant has more to do with the work she's doing rather than how some pimply group of high school freshmen see her. I can go back to periods during the mid 90s during her coma-inducing You'll See era and theorize that she was in a similar lull career wise that she's in now. Her career goes in waves. By the Music era it seemed like she was the most respected female in pop. In 2008? She was defined by plastic surgery, divorce, A-Rod's big wang, fishnets and top hats, and oh, that song with Twinkerlake. Her music was a fraction of the equation. Her real relevance was in the gossip columns. Personally I enjoyed 2008 because we were seeing her become a new woman right before our eyes. But musically, no one remembers anything except Timbaland's fart horns.

Anyway, go ahead and rip me to shreds.

By the Music era she FINALLY seemed to gain some of the respect she should've been getting since 1989...it was LOOONG overdue and I think most FINALLY realized at this point that they kinda had no choice but to give it up to her. I could say the same things about 2000 that you say about 2008. She was defined by her cowboy hats and country girl jeans, marrying a much younger man in a castle....who just happened to be the hottest new film maker out there, being in a cult, running around with guns and shooting animals (yeah...that seemed REAL genuine huh?) pregnancy and adopting a horrible phony British accent. For the first time ever it seemed like Madonna was actually conforming herself to a MAN, instead of the man conforming to her. Never thought I'd see that day. I found THAT unnatural and phony. I have as many magazines with her on the cover from 2000-2001 that have to do with pregnancy, marriage and "Madonna's Men" then I do Rolling Stone or Interview like covers from that year that talk about the music. The song Music was a global number one, possibly THE biggest of her career at that time and Music the album was one of the top selling albums of the year worldwide, DWT was one of the highest grossing tours of the year.

Let's talk about 2008-2009. She's apparently respected enough still that she got inducted to the RRHOF her first year eligible...not without controversy of course. I have magazines with her on the cover that discuss A-Rod, divorce from Guy and "Blame It On Rio" that features Jesus...I also have an Interview and Vanity Fair that discuss mostly the music plus the new Rolling Stone that's all about the music. The song 4 Minutes was a global number one, ONE of the biggest of her career. Oh what's that? 4 Minutes isn't a real Madonna song. OK...let's use Give It 2 Me then. It was a bigger worldwide hit than Kanye's US top 5 smash Love Lockdown, Ne-Yo's US top 10 Miss Independent and bigger than Britney's award sweeping Piece Of Me just to name a few for perspective purposes. Hard Candy is one of the top selling albums of the year worldwide, S&S is the highest grossing tour by a solo artist in history.

Seems to me the actual script hasn't changed very much, only the cast of characters. That and your personal opinion of Madonna 2000-2001 vs. Madonna 2008-2009. I hope you don't think I ripped you to shreds with this!

[Guest Danny86]

No one looks at the earlier part of this decade as being exciting times in Madonna's personal life, let's not make stuff seem any more important than it was. Madonna could have gotten away with murder during that era. In fact I remember one of those stupid shows on E! did a blurb on Madonna in 2001 during her tour and gushed over what now us fans consider Madonna's most severe and haggard physique. People mag did the same. She was America's sweetheart at that point.

And Music was exciting for everyone. It wasn't until Swept Away when attitudes about her changed and the tide turned. Then after that it was never the same IMO.

Btw, are you always this pompous? Jesus. It's just a conversation. No need to patronize me all the time. And you wonder why people have their knives out when they talk to you.

It doesn't have to be exciting for fans, but Madonna's wedding is definitely something that is meant to get a bigger splash than her music. And I didn't even talk about "bad press", just stuff happening with her and around her other than the music (but I don't believe they cut her some slack because of TNBT . She was America's sweetheart but because of what Kurt said, they were all about the "she's still around!" vibe and at that time older artists like Santana or Cher were also having successes so it was a different climate that was more supportive of longevity. I just don't believe that Madonna's music was loved by everyone for 3-4 years BECAUSE of its quality, and that would be the basis of "relevancy".

I don't think I was more out of line than any of your posts. And "people" don't have their knives out when they talk to me, certainly not the majority of the board anyway, those who do, not because of my "pompous replies", so your remark feels kinda unnecessary.

[loomer]

Is this thread STILL going?

@ all the essay length posts. One doth protest too much about Madonna's cast iron relevancy.

[Ai Papi Si.]

By the Music era she FINALLY seemed to gain some of the respect she should've been getting since 1989...it was LOOONG overdue and I think most FINALLY realized at this point that they kinda had no choice but to give it up to her. I could say the same things about 2000 that you say about 2008. She was defined by her cowboy hats and country girl jeans, marrying a much younger man in a castle....who just happened to be the hottest new film maker out there, being in a cult, running around with guns and shooting animals (yeah...that seemed REAL genuine huh?) pregnancy and adopting a horrible phony British accent. For the first time ever it seemed like Madonna was actually conforming herself to a MAN, instead of the man conforming to her. Never thought I'd see that day. I found THAT unnatural and phony. I have as many magazines with her on the cover from 2000-2001 that have to do with pregnancy, marriage and "Madonna's Men" then I do Rolling Stone or Interview like covers from that year that talk about the music. The song Music was a global number one, possibly THE biggest of her career at that time and Music the album was one of the top selling albums of the year worldwide, DWT was one of the highest grossing tours of the year.

Let's talk about 2008-2009. She's apparently respected enough still that she got inducted to the RRHOF her first year eligible...not without controversy of course. I have magazines with her on the cover that discuss A-Rod, divorce from Guy and "Blame It On Rio" that features Jesus...I also have an Interview and Vanity Fair that discuss mostly the music plus the new Rolling Stone that's all about the music. The song 4 Minutes was a global number one, ONE of the biggest of her career. Oh what's that? 4 Minutes isn't a real Madonna song. OK...let's use Give It 2 Me then. It was a bigger worldwide hit than Kanye's US top 5 smash Love Lockdown, Ne-Yo's US top 10 Miss Independent and bigger than Britney's award sweeping Piece Of Me just to name a few for perspective purposes. Hard Candy is one of the top selling albums of the year worldwide, S&S is the highest grossing tour by a solo artist in history.

Seems to me the actual script hasn't changed very much, only the cast of characters. That and your personal opinion of Madonna 2000-2001 vs. Madonna 2008-2009. I hope you don't think I ripped you to shreds with this!

haha oh Kurt.

I actually don't think the faux London thing/pheasant shooting started to take it's toll until way after the Muzak era. During that era it was pretty much a steady domination across the board with music, video, performance and whatever else you wanna throw in. New hubby, new baby, it was all golden. Her personal life didn't overshadow any of that. 2002/Swept Away is when all the conforming/London/tweed stuff started to really grate.

2008 will forever be known as one of Madonna's craziest years. The succeses she had were very much at odds with the gossip and personal stuff that she went through that year because a lot of it was negative, keep in mind. I really don't see how you can argue this. It was a big year for her but it was hardly the success story you're painting it to be. It was pretty all over the place with only the tour as a constant undebatable success.

[Kurt420]

Let me add that I think Madonna has always been "relevant" in some form. Where MJ and Prince were pretty much over and never really recovered, I think Madonna has always been someone that people are generally interested in. I just don't think she's attracting the kind of attention she was getting say 3.5 years ago where she was just a woman doing her thing. now it's like people are more dismissive of her than ever. It's almost like people are just wanting Madonna to get old and be an antique and stop bothering with music. I think it's lame, and I wanna hear more passion from her, because I see it onstage, I just don't hear it in the music. Anyway blah balh blah...

And what I bolded is really ALL I've been trying to say this entire thread. People like to throw words into my mouth like I'm trying to say she's the hot thing on the block right now, EVERYBODY loves her, Hard Candy changed the music world and she's still setting fashion trends like 1985, that she's cutting edge. I'm not saying any of those things at all. All I'm saying is it's absolutely ABSURD to call someone irrelevant who has been as commercially successful as she's been this past year. If you can attract 3.5 million people to your show then you are relevant (especially at $300 a pop during the biggest global recession in most our lifetimes). And even if it were true that all she gets headlines for is her personal life, why is a journalist going to write about someone (and so much) who's irrlevant to people? I don't think as many magazines and newspapers would be sold if they decided to throw Kim Carnes on the cover...lol...now THAT is irrelevant in 2009. And I'm not sure about you, but the ones who have been most dismissive of her lately are her own diehard fans...like message board/blog fans and perhaps some MUSIC CRITICS...who are always more snobby than your average music listener. Outside of here, even amongst her gay fans, I don't hear any complaints. In fact I've seen quite a few people become fans because of HC....and I'm not trying to act like that's the predominate scenario here...that she gained a GAZILLION new fans (before anybody tries to twist my words), but I'm just sharing *MY* experience.