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BREXIT / British Politics thread

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Probably a certain kind of deal could be made on Scotland if it secedes from UK prior to Brexit: indeed the member is UK but Scotland is de facto a region of that country and has been applying EU law since 1973 (what should EU and Scotland negotiate? Yes members of Parliament etc, but those could be negotiated within Brexit). I think it would be stupid to make Scotland apply again unless UK is opposing a deal with EU/Scotland. There has been cases of regions of a country (Denmark) leaving EU (Greenland) while Denmark staying so I could see the reverse deal being negotiated. If Brexit happens and Scotland secedes I could see an international threaty regulating Brexit and simultaniously being a threaty regulating Scotlands membership. I mean it would be an international treaty with the same juridicial force of the Lisboa treaties. The only problem would be that a party should be also UK.

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Well it's such a weird scenario.  Scotland would need an army to be part of the NATO,  because both supranational bodies are intertwined.  However Scotland can be member or the European Economic Area, like Norway,  Switzerland and Liechtenstein and even member of the Schengen area, like Switzerland.  

It's a good opportunity for the EU to develope new strategies for these uncommon scenarios. 

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On 13/10/2016 at 9:27 PM, pjcowley said:

Hey Kim, do you think that a second one could soon be a reality.....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/13/nicola-sturgeon-challenges-may-with-second-referendum-bill-scottish-independence-snp-conference

... along with independence this time?

It's only a matter of time really, and it needs to be perfect timing taking Brexit into account. Nicola continues to play it well. Just by announcing (what is only a ) consultation on a second bill, she's strengthening her hand when it comes to Brexit negotiations. She (and we) want to remain in the single market and that's what she wants May to take to the negotiating table for Scotland...with the 'threat' of a referendum in the background.

But the fact is they don't want another referendum until the polls indicate decisively that they'll win, so it's a waiting game to see the potential damage May's probable Hard Brexit does, but in order to remain in the EU, any steps Scotland takes need to be before we exit. It's legally possible and probable that an independent Scotland before Brexit could simply take the UK's current seat at the EU table, inherit all the current treaties and make amendments from within etc. For Scotland to be taken out of the EU, then get independence, then have to reapply would be a logistical mess.

Either way, the tide has already turned, and to be blunt: as the older generation carks it, the new are already seizing the day.

 

On 14/10/2016 at 11:18 AM, karbatal said:

It's really fascinating because in Spain we are facing the segregation from Catalonia. From Madrid it's always a bunch of meneacing opinions and Brussels has said that it's against any segregation and that Catalonia will have to wait years and years to enter the EU. 

But now this Scotland thing happens and surely Brussels would be so happy to accept Scotland, so Catalonia will ask for the same treatment (in case there's ever a referendum in Spain). 

Of course, our Spanish Government very fast answered yesterday that is against any segregation of Scotland. Spain will try to make things complicated in Brussels!!! 

Well Brussels didn't make those remarks about Scotland in 2014, they more or less said they didn't know what would happen, but I'm pretty certain it would have been a case of fast track membership as all treaties stretching back 30 odd years were already in place. They didn't want to say a clear "yes" though, because their preference was for the UK to stay together as is.... before this entire mess of course.

I do remember Spain was really the only dissenting voice when Nicola went over to Brussels just after the EU referendum (while the rest of the jokers were in hiding) because of the Catalonia situation. You always see a couple of Catalonia flags at SNP rallies etc, I've noticed, lol. I'm not that familiar with the similarities though. Do they have their own legal, education, healthcare system like Scotland, do they already have a devolved parliament from central government like we do?

 

7 hours ago, karbatal said:

Well it's such a weird scenario.  Scotland would need an army to be part of the NATO,  because both supranational bodies are intertwined.  However Scotland can be member or the European Economic Area, like Norway,  Switzerland and Liechtenstein and even member of the Schengen area, like Switzerland.  

It's a good opportunity for the EU to develope new strategies for these uncommon scenarios. 

The NATO thing is interesting, because the SNP is vehemently against trident, which normally would be a problem for NATO membership, but as the UK's trident nuclear weapon base is in Scotland and would take years to disassemble, then membership would be almost mandatory in return for striking a transitional period deal, and afterwards, it would be foolhardy to disrupt the current (non nuclear) defence systems already in place in the North Atlantic and North Sea by somehow excluding Scotland.

As far as an army is concerned, Scotland has it's own regiments within the UK forces and independence would see them just take their share of the current maritime and aviation fleets.

Anyway, I was watching Queen Nicola's closing conference speech on the telly earlier today which just highlights the gulf between her politics and the insular sinister Tories and the shambolic ineffective mumblings from Labour.

 

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It's really interesting that there are Scottish regiments inside the British army!  I didn't know.  

In Spain we have 17 parliaments.  Every region has its own chamber and issues like education or health is administered by those parliaments.  That's why for many Spaniards the Catalanish or Basquish  independence pretentions are difficult to understand.  the only thing we depend on Madrid is the budget.  Taxes are payed,  half the money is sent to Madrid and then is redistributed among the regions. Those with more needs get more.  That means that richer regions such as Catalonia or Basque Country have to give part of their money to others like Andalusia.  It's all about the money.  

Our region system is very weird.  Some people think that too much money is spent in so many parliaments.  Others,  like me,  have experienced how much better things work since we can make our own politics and strategies in every region.  Before that my region,  Aragón, was forgotten and we only got absurd plans.  

If Catalonia got to be independent,  other regions would want the same and Spain will cease to exist. Maybe we go back to Castilla Kingdom and Aragón Kingdom (Catalonia,  Aragón, Valencia and Mallorca) ,  like we were prior 1492. 

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Technically, they're currently part of the British Army of course, but all those regiments stretch back hundreds of years, long predating the union with England.

Ah, the Catalonia situation isn't that different then. Do those parliaments for each region have different political parties elected to run them? Is the Catalonia Parliament run by a pro-independence party?

That's the tricky tightrope that the SNP walks here. They are the governing party, but while a lot of people support their policies and vote for them, they don't necessarily support independence, despite that being the whole point of the SNP,  but they are really the only left-of-centre party left here since Labour basically destroyed themselves, and Scotland never has been, and never will be a conservative Tory country, so they're here to stay one way or another, and independence will come eventually.

It is all about the money. Despite the recent drop in oil prices (which will reverse at some point) the billions of £££ in revenue piped from here down to London over the years is staggering. They were never gonna let that go without a fight.

Obviously the big stumbling block for Catalonia is that, as you say, if they get it, it opens the floodgates for the rest to want it as well. 

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10 hours ago, karbatal said:

 

I  the only thing we depend on Madrid is the budget.  Taxes are payed,  half the money is sent to Madrid and then is redistributed among the regions. Those with more needs get more.  That means that richer regions such as Catalonia or Basque Country have to give part of their money to others like Andalusia.  It's all about the money.  

Our region system is very weird.  Some people think that too much money is spent in so many parliaments.  Others,  like me,  have experienced how much better things work since we can make our own politics and strategies in every region.  Before that my region,  Aragón, was forgotten and we only got absurd plans. 

two things about this: remember that in basque country/navarre we have our own taxation system, we pay to madrid for all the things they do here (army, police, public TV...)and we keep the rest of the money to solve our problems, and to pay the solidarity money for poorer regions. It´s a good system, at least in here it works and thanks to that a lot of people are confortable in the spanish system, unlike in catalonya, where they don´t have our tax system. On the other hand, if something goes wrong, we won´t receive money help from other spanish regions, that´s why this system maybe wouldn´t work everywhere in spain.

 

and, the spanish region system is not weird! is not a feredeal system, becausee the central government allows regions to do a lot of things, but that´s it, it allows us, and they can have it back if they want to. In fact, they are doing it (education laws...).So it´s not a federal system either, where the regions have their own rights

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10 hours ago, Kim said:

 

Obviously the big stumbling block for Catalonia is that, as you say, if they get it, it opens the floodgates for the rest to want it as well. 

and again, the big different is that in the UK is legal, in spain is not: some people even talk about military actions if something similar starts to happen.actually, that´s what the constitution says (article 8?)

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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37670091

Boris Johnson makes light of 'semi-parodic' pro-EU column

Boris Johnson has defended his writing of a pro-EU article days before he publicly backed Brexit, saying the article was "semi-parodic" and the UK's decision to leave was right

 

 

 

 

:wacko:

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Can't say I was surprised when it came out that he was about to declare as pro-EU just days before jumping into the other camp. Just more proof that the whole thing was about internal party politics and their own political careers.

And what does Theresa May do, knowing what a shape-shifting cunt he is?  Makes him Foreign Secretary of course.

Rotten to the core.

 

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fuckin BOJO

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British industry needs immigration, engineers warn May

Clampdown on free movement threatens innovation and growth, report says

https://www.ft.com/content/9296c358-923b-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923

 

Theresa May’s industrial strategy will struggle to deliver innovation and growth in the absence of skilled EU workers and researchers, Britain’s engineering leaders have warned.

Roughly 25 per cent of the UK’s start-ups have been founded by non-British EU nationals, and 45 per cent of their employees are from the continent, a study led by the Royal Academy of Engineering states.

A clampdown on free movement when Britain leaves the EU could also put at risk the UK’s reputation as centre of engineering excellence with top universities relying on the best and brightest EU staff and students. At Imperial College London for example — one of the world’s top 10 universities and a global leader in engineering — roughly a third of staff are non-UK EU nationals.

 

The study, which brings together the views of 38 engineering organisations and 400 companies, was handed to business secretary Greg Clark on Friday in a bid by industry to set out a road map for an effective industrial strategy in post-Brexit Britain.

Although the engineering community welcomed the decision by Mrs May in July to make industrial strategy a priority, what this will mean remains unclear and uncertainty is mounting over the impact of Britain’s decision to quit the EU. The report claims that engineering-related sectors account for £280bn in gross value added to the UK economy, a fifth of the total.

The 46-page paper sets out in comprehensive detail the ways in which UK engineering benefits from its access to the EU’s labour market, and its research and funding schemes. It urges the government to commission an audit of “current dependencies”. Recognising and addressing these issues must be part of an industrial strategy to maintain and improve UK competitiveness, say the compilers of the report.

For example, failure to maintain the ease with which companies can transfer their own continental employees into the UK could drive up costs. Roughly 182,000 higher level technicians and engineers will be needed a year to meet industry growth ambitions up until 2022, the report estimates — demand which the UK alone could not supply for several years even if initiatives to train people are accelerated.

Hindered access to EU talent could also result in expensive delays to large taxpayer-funded infrastructure projects such as the Hinkley Point nuclear power station. In sectors crucial to infrastructure projects, such as information technology and energy, the vacancy rate can be twice the national average.

Engineers also worry about continued access to the long-term collaborative projects that fuel innovation, such as those funded through the EU’s Horizon 2020 research programme.

“You have to think about what you cannot do independently,” says Hayaatun Sillem, deputy chief executive of the academy, who oversaw the report. “It is not realistic to think we could create something like that with multiple partners. We need to think very, very carefully about disengaging from that kind of platform. There is a close relationship between research collaboration and competitiveness of the country.”

Dame Ann Dowling, president of the Royal Academy of Engineering, said plans to trigger the exit process next spring were raising significant concerns that would have to be addressed if the government’s ambition to foster economic growth with a coherent industrial strategy were to be met.

There were “questions about our ability to train enough skilled engine … to attract the brightest and best international talent to the UK to address specific skills shortages, and to collaborate with colleagues in non-UK EU countries in a way that accelerates innovation.”

Sir John Parker, former president of the academy and chairman of mining group Anglo American, said Britain’s departure from the EU should be seen as an opportunity to meet some of these challenges. “I see this as fresh start on industrial strategy,” he said. “It is about how we face up to getting our companies into a totally competitive position and working within a competitive and supportive industrial atmosphere.”

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Meanwhile .....

 

Andrew Marr Show October 16

 

 

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12 hours ago, Kim said:

Can't say I was surprised when it came out that he was about to declare as pro-EU just days before jumping into the other camp. Just more proof that the whole thing was about internal party politics and their own political careers.

And what does Theresa May do, knowing what a shape-shifting cunt he is?  Makes him Foreign Secretary of course.

Rotten to the core.

 

IKR   :rotfl:  :chuckle:

 

It doesn't make ANY sense, or maybe it does, in an upside down way

 

tumblr_mgdroyLiQI1qgwj4co1_1280.png

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From the Northern Irish perspective, the vote in the Assembly yesterday was shortsighted and politically mean. Unionist members in particular just haven't grasped the importance of being with the Irish Government on much of this. I know there's 'old' politics in this, but this is no time for being politically mean. Northern Ireland and the Republic are inextricably connected and to divide them via a boarder that hasn't needed to be used in nearly 40 years is incredibly worrying!

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/16/irish-pm-calls-brexit-summit-to-confront-looming-crisis

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The UK should just hold a new referendum. The "Okay, for real real this time, guys. Not for play play" referendum.

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1 hour ago, ULIZOS said:

The UK should just hold a new referendum. The "Okay, for real real this time, guys. Not for play play" referendum.

The UK as it stands now is a dictatorial regime masked under a Tories "democracy" - brexiters will never apologize for the gigantic embarrassing lies they farted out, a new referendum to amend this fuckery will never happen. After all, Theresa-cruella May-devil is eager to invoke Article 50 March next year, and never mind if the country national health services goes to shit with no extra funding granted.

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^   speaking of democracy ....

 

I really don't understand what's going on in London right now

NatWest (RBS division bailed out with taxpayers money at the height of the 2008-2009 crash) warned the 24 hour news channel Russia Today that from December they wouldn't be able to have an account with them anymore, and they have already backtracked!! after RT accused this of being a move from Theresa May's Cabinet, in light of Bojo Johnson calling for protesters to stand outside the Russian Embassy in London etc

They have a problem with a multi language 24 Hour News Channel available in dozens of countries, employing also British and American journalists, because it's a Russian one but have no qualms whatsoever with the ocean of questionable Russian oligarchs money that has been flooding London unregulated for years now, pushing the prices up for everybody at an alarming pace and rigging the entire property market, making it almost impossible to even rent a flat. Give me a fucking break. Talk about inconsistence (for which us non millionaire end up paying) at best, blatant hypocrisy and rampant corruption at worst :rolleyes:

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24 minutes ago, Kim said:

CvOQjWQW8AAy5J3.jpg:large

#SHAMEONYOU

 

I really don't understand

Every day you read a new article about how there's not enough British nationals to do a certain job in so many lines of work, the NHS, the building or engineering sectors just an example, yet they go ahead with this nonsense? These politicians must be really living in some kind of parallel universe or something. One thing is wanting out of the EU, another alltogether is how things are shaping up.

Meanwhile Theresa May was in Brussels today reciting the same trite, tired, three month old statements that Brexit means brexit but has failed to notify Merkel and Company about what type of deal the current UK government  envisions to be implemented. It's even more sad that unnerving really. It's becoming a farce

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12 minutes ago, XXL said:

 

I really don't understand

Every day you read a new article about how there's not enough British nationals to do a certain job in so many lines of work, the NHS, the building or engineering sectors just an example, yet they go ahead with this nonsense? These politicians must be really living in some kind of parallel universe or something. One thing is wanting out of the EU, another alltogether is how things are shaping up.

Meanwhile Theresa May was in Brussels today reciting the same trite, tired, three month old statements that Brexit means brexit but has failed to notify Merkel and Company about what type of deal the current UK government  envisions to be implemented. It's even more sad that unnerving really. It's becoming a farce

It's fucking disgusting is what it is. These are people who call this country their HOME... here, living and working with their families, being treated like pieces of worthless shit. That is not the country I recognise as MY home, and everyone I know is equally as sickened by this. I really despair sometimes of what goes on down there. Does England REALLY want this stain on their history?

 

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1 hour ago, Kim said:

CvOQjWQW8AAy5J3.jpg:large

#SHAMEONYOU

Fucking hell....

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WTF????

They are digging their own grave! The main principle of the agreements are based on freedom of goods, services, people and capital. Do they really think they can have a good commercial deal without accepting freedom of people? Iceland, Norway or Liechtestain had to accept it. Well, Switzerland is even part of Schengen! 

With that RACIST policy, they won't get any good deal from the EU. They'd better turn their heads towards USA and turn UK into the new Puerto Rico. 

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I used to live in UK for 21 years . I gave up my British citizenship now though. Most of my best friends are still living / working there . Some are Europeans . Does this mean they will have to apply for work permits and visas to remain in UK ? I'm utterly stunned.

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I guess. And they will get the visas if they are qualified and all that. It does not mean that they will have to live as refugees. 

Those who are now working on lesser jobs have the problem. But the joke is on the UK in the end, because they surely NEED those people too. So in the end they will have to accept them too. So all this FUSS for nothing, but meanwhile they are burning bridges to any potentially good agreement with Brussels. 

 

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God how did it come to this? I went to visit my friends last year in London and I love it ( BB - Before Brexit ) The energy / the vibes etc) When I left UK in the early 2000s it was pretty dead. No creative energy etc at all. I'd been going back a few times after I left but only in the last 3 years that I noticed the UK was really happening again. The Brexit happened and I thought WHATTTTT????

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