Camacho Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 boyculture.com Feb. 3, 2014 I've Written A Letter To Mommy: Why Saying Something About Madonna Usually Says Something About Yourself Madonna is older than both Gloria Swanson and Bette Davis were in their most-referenced roles. Probably fewer gay men than ever are into Madonna. I don't think it's that Madonna's gay fanbase is decimated, but it's more de rigeur to hate on her from within that community than at any other time in her career. We're not talking about people who don't care for Madonna's music, we're talking about the men who take every opportunity to eviscerate the woman, often in order to get a laugh. I think a lot of the fresh antipathy comes from gay men who are very talented (or think they are very talented) being angry at a woman they think is no more talented (or way less talented) than themselves, and who is succeeding beyond their wildest dreams. Also, from the gay side, there is a huge resentment that you're supposed to like Madonna (among many other gay stereotypes). The same boiling rage against things like gay pride parades exists among gay men who resent being expected to like Madonna. When it comes to gay men (especially) and others attempting to sound smart about Madonna, the go-to line has changed drastically over the years. If you follow the go-to wisdom about Madonna, you can see the slide. As with any artist, in the beginning, when Madonna was young and her goals of chart-busting, envelope-pushing and world domination were easy to grasp, there was no need for a script. You liked her or you didn't. When she went from being the latest upstart/upskirt sensation to a superstar, it was more love vs. hate. But when she was finally an icon—arguably around 1989—things began to change. It became important to have something to say about Madonna. The first meme, pre-icondom, was: "She slept her way to the top," eventually enhanced by quoting Madonna (out of context) saying of herself that she couldn't sing or dance. (Never mind that Madonna never said that; she said she knew she wasn't the best at either. World of difference.) This observation was meant to discount any talent Madonna has, other than knowing her way around a penis. By the time Madonna was re-inventing concert tours with Blond Ambition, nonfans switched to the canard, "She's a smart businesswoman." This one really held forever. She was on the cover of Forbes and was fast becoming the richest, most successful (unless you're an avid reader of Mariah Carey press releases) female singer of all time, she bested MTV by making her banned "Justify My Love" video into a commercial video single and she had more merch with her image on it than a boy band. While technically true that Madonna was and is an astute business mind, this focus on business was really just another way to undermine her creativity and her pleasing musicianship. It continued the thesis that Madonna was not an artist so much as a manipulator. During the Sex era, it was all about, "Madonna's gone too far." Did any of us who weren't infants (or yet to be born) in 1992 really go without hearing hundreds of times how Madonna had taken her sexual shenanigans too far? And how far is too far? Is there a map? I remember being at a record show in 1992 and overhearing a man saying, "I used to really like Madonna, but she's too dyke-ish now." It should have been to Madonna's credit, among the gay community, that she had allowed people to believe in 1989 that she was doing Sandra Bernhard, or that she would pose lesbociously in Sex. But many gays rolled their eyes at all of this. For the first time, it felt like she was shedding some gay fans along with the mainstreamers that every massively successful artist loses as they coast into their thirties. One of Madonna's more positive memes: "She's the queen of re-invention." While even this one, again, was fixated more on manipulation than on her artistry, it did at least allow for some creativity. It was neutral enough that Madonna herself adapted it for a successful tour. (Though she semi-playfully rolled her eyes when a journalist asked about re-invention at a round table I attended in 2012.) Re-invention segued into the idea that Madonna is a vampire, using other artists to stay alive. It was funny when people pointed out that Britney Spears seemingly lost all of her mojo after kissing Madonna (Christina Aguilera didn't fare much better), but the sentiment has expanded over the years and become an insult, the suggestion being that Madonna is nothing without other, younger artists around her. (Never mind the lack of complaints when far greater vocal talents, like Streisand or Bennett indulge in a little brand-sprucing.) Gay men, for at least the past five years, have increasingly been arguing that Madonna is somehow using us. (She's not the only one—Lady Gaga has been crucified for it.) Ignoring Madonna's long, personal history with gay men, these critics have suggested Madonna's just throwing us a little love here and there to keep us on the hook, to keep her rich and famous. A friend recently told me someone argued to him that Madonna never spoke up about gay men until "after 1989, when it was safer." This is a joke, as is the entire argument that Madonna has not been a true gay icon. First of all, when would a teen idol and Top 40 queen have even been asked about gay issues in the early '80s? Yet on her own, by 1986 she was actively speaking about and working on the AIDS issue. Her Who's That Girl Tour featured an MSG date with proceeds to the cause, she financially and personally assisted her bestie Martin Burgoyne as he died of AIDS and she never shied away from the issue when it was raised. As I mentioned earlier, Madonna was actively allowing the public to assume she was bisexual in 1988. Did this really help her make more money? Because as popular as Like a Prayer was, it was less popular than True Blue. And now we've come to the current go-to comment about Madonna, always something about her age. She's "desperate," she's "out of touch," she "needs to retire." My favorite argument about why Madonna should retire is, "You're embarrassing yourself. Here, let me humiliate the fuck out of you for it." Shorthand for all of these recent ideas: She's "Baby Jane Hudson" or "Norma Desmond." (Mae West is even more ridiculous, in that Mae—for all of her many talents—was completely gaga by the time she was in her sixties. Gloria Swanson and Bette Davis remained very sharp if eccentric even after they became women of a certain age, and there's no arguing that Madonna is not still shrewd and and that she is not presenting herself in exactly the way she pleases.) I know Norma Desmond and Baby Jane comparisons are about getting old, but they're getting old themselves. And they're wildly inaccurate and reveal a lack of understanding of either of the films in question (Sunset Boulevard and What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?, respectively). Norma Desmond was a woman who lost her perspective and her mind because the public dropped her. She went on believing she was famous and that time had not passed. (She was not, however, unattractive. Gloria Swanson was amazing-looking at 50. Yet the insult is clearly meant to include the idea that Madonna is old and unattractive.) Baby Jane Hudson was completely insane because she had zero talent as an adult and could never recapture her popularity as a child. Madonna—who is OLDER than both Bette Davis and Gloria Swanson were in those roles, by several years—is still a household name, is looked up to by a whole generation of artists, is physically fit and in spite of radio's absolute refusal to play even her most radio-friendly singles, is the #1 solo touring act in history. As of now, not as of the '80s or '90s. As far as her appearance, she's 55 years old and has a very fit body, so her face is going to either be drawn (and she'll get mocked for that, probably by the same people mocking her for her fillers, actually) or it's going to have plastic surgery and fillers. It's one or the other. Madonna has elected to try to look youthful. I think she succeeds more often than not. It is not pathetic for an attractive, fit, successful and relentlessly scrutinized woman to continue in her profession, to dress sexily and to bang 25-year-old men while barreling toward billionaire-hood. Is she as brilliantly and restlessly creative as she was at 25? Nope. But is she drastically more interesting than ANY of her peers from the '80s are (or were, in the case of the ones who aren't even alive)? Yep. I don't see why people feel the need to try to make Madonna's happiness and success and visibility into something "sad." It's just not. Liking her is a personal-taste issue, she's not for everyone. But the ageist stuff goes beyond Madonna and is depressing because we're all gonna be 55 (hopefully) and 75 and 95 and god damn it, I hope we all have 1/100th of her success and confidence. These catty comments depress me more than any other when they're bandied about by gay men. We need help when it comes to appreciating age. We don't need to go gray and hit the rocker, but we need to realize that getting older is okay, and we should not be embracing conventional rules about aging any more than we should be accepting conventional rules about marriage or parenting. You can believe or not believe any of the above go-to comments about Madonna, but at least know this: They are not insights. You did not make them up. They are lazily repeated observations as unoriginal as they are uninformative. A lot of what makes Madonna fascinating is not the woman herself, but the reactions she provokes, positive and negative. Even when the reactions are coming from people too intellectually blank to bring anything new to the table, they're interesting because they say something about the person repeating them, like urban legends, as if they were new and true blue. All of which is not to say you have to like Madonna, even if you're gay. And all of which is to say: The trick is to like the things you like without feeling pressure to NOT like them, and vice versa, and to be fine with it if someone else feels the opposite. And not to use irrational, inconsistent and offensive arguments for why you don't like it. 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Raf Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I love how he always sticks up for her, he really is a true fan. Great article! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 he is a member here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCD Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larkspur Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I always enjoy reading his thoughts on Madonna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky guy Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I'm glad the cheeks are not still like that 'fuck you I'm 50 gif'. Some things do improve with time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madonnasuperfan01 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 AMAZING ARTICLE Is that true that so many gay men dislike her? I knew she isn't loved by everyone but the gay community always seemed to be quite positive toward her overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsaacHarris Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 A lot of what makes Madonna fascinating is not the woman herself, but the reactions she provokes, positive and negative. Even when the reactions are coming from people too intellectually blank to bring anything new to the table, they're interesting because they say something about the person repeating them, like urban legends, as if they were new and true blue.AND LET THE CHIOR SAY AMEN.Before becoming a 'Madonna fan' people I encountered rarely if ever brought her up. Now that I openly & consistently chat about her, everyone SUDDENLY has strong (usually negative) opinions. As the article states, theres is an unspoken pressure to dislike, discredit, and disrespect her. I love M, for many personal reasons, but I gotta admit, part of me enjoys the fury her name sparks. I DON'T engage in arguments regarding her worth, nor do I defend her as passionately as sport fans defend favorite teams... I just let em' talk shit. Considering all the negativity comes with mentioning her name, I'd say that being a modern Madonna fan is very punk rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsaacHarris Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I'm glad the cheeks are not still like that 'fuck you I'm 50 gif'. Some things do improve with time. Really? I think the S&S 4M FACE is her best look to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddykrueger86 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky guy Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Really? I think the S&S 4M FACE is her best look to date. The whole face is often swollen now -better that than silly 'cheekbones' that she never had before dominating her whole face. She often (as he says) looks great. Obvs. not with the grills etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 AMAZING ARTICLE Is that true that so many gay men dislike her? I knew she isn't loved by everyone but the gay community always seemed to be quite positive toward her overall. I think it's a reaction to the vicious little queens posting ignorant shit online. I lived every word and couldn't agree more. Madonna hasn't just done a shitload for the gay community but she has for human relations in general! She's an absolute genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madonnasuperfan01 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I think it's a reaction to the vicious little queens posting ignorant shit online. I lived every word and couldn't agree more. Madonna hasn't just done a shitload for the gay community but she has for human relations in general! She's an absolute genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCD Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Strange - when I first clicked on the link to the story, the article had nearly 100 comments under it -- most of them fantastic. Now when I click on the link, all the comments are gone. Maybe just a glitch! Hope they return, there was some A-fucking-MEN material being posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TearsInHeaven Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I think it's a reaction to the vicious little queens posting ignorant shit online. I lived every word and couldn't agree more. Madonna hasn't just done a shitload for the gay community but she has for human relations in general! She's an absolute genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXL Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 boyculture.com Feb. 3, 2014 Why Saying Something About Madonna Usually Says Something About Yourself Re-invention segued into the idea that Madonna is a vampire, using other artists to stay alive. It was funny when people pointed out that Britney Spears seemingly lost all of her mojo after kissing Madonna (Christina Aguilera didn't fare much better), but the sentiment has expanded over the years and become an insult, the suggestion being that Madonna is nothing without other, younger artists around her. (Never mind the lack of complaints when far greater vocal talents, like Streisand or Bennett indulge in a little brand-sprucing.) Gay men, for at least the past five years, have increasingly been arguing that Madonna is somehow using us. (She's not the only one—Lady Gaga has been crucified for it.) Ignoring Madonna's long, personal history with gay men, these critics have suggested Madonna's just throwing us a little love here and there to keep us on the hook, to keep her rich and famous. A friend recently told me someone argued to him that Madonna never spoke up about gay men until "after 1989, when it was safer." This is a joke, as is the entire argument that Madonna has not been a true gay icon. First of all, when would a teen idol and Top 40 queen have even been asked about gay issues in the early '80s? Yet on her own, by 1986 she was actively speaking about and working on the AIDS issue. Her Who's That Girl Tour featured an MSG date with proceeds to the cause, she financially and personally assisted her bestie Martin Burgoyne as he died of AIDS and she never shied away from the issue when it was raised. As I mentioned earlier, Madonna was actively allowing the public to assume she was bisexual in 1988. Did this really help her make more money? Because as popular as Like a Prayer was, it was less popular than True Blue. Madonna—who is OLDER than both Bette Davis and Gloria Swanson were in those roles, by several years—is still a household name, is looked up to by a whole generation of artists, is physically fit and in spite of radio's absolute refusal to play even her most radio-friendly singles, is the #1 solo touring act in history. As of now, not as of the '80s or '90s. As far as her appearance, she's 55 years old and has a very fit body, so her face is going to either be drawn (and she'll get mocked for that, probably by the same people mocking her for her fillers, actually) or it's going to have plastic surgery and fillers. It's one or the other. Madonna has elected to try to look youthful. I think she succeeds more often than not. It is not pathetic for an attractive, fit, successful and relentlessly scrutinized woman to continue in her profession, to dress sexily and to bang 25-year-old men while barreling toward billionaire-hood. Is she as brilliantly and restlessly creative as she was at 25? Nope. But is she drastically more interesting than ANY of her peers from the '80s are (or were, in the case of the ones who aren't even alive)? Yep. I don't see why people feel the need to try to make Madonna's happiness and success and visibility into something "sad." It's just not. Liking her is a personal-taste issue, she's not for everyone. But the ageist stuff goes beyond Madonna and is depressing because we're all gonna be 55 (hopefully) and 75 and 95 and god damn it, I hope we all have 1/100th of her success and confidence. These catty comments depress me more than any other when they're bandied about by gay men. We need help when it comes to appreciating age. We don't need to go gray and hit the rocker, but we need to realize that getting older is okay, and we should not be embracing conventional rules about aging any more than we should be accepting conventional rules about marriage or parenting. You can believe or not believe any of the above go-to comments about Madonna, but at least know this: They are not insights. You did not make them up. They are lazily repeated observations as unoriginal as they are uninformative. A lot of what makes Madonna fascinating is not the woman herself, but the reactions she provokes, positive and negative. Even when the reactions are coming from people too intellectually blank to bring anything new to the table, they're interesting because they say something about the person repeating them, like urban legends, as if they were new and true blue. Brilliant article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumbleweedt Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Very INSIGHTFUL article, with rock-solid ARGUMENTATION. * * Madonna is a brilliant disco ball with a myriad mirrors reflecting and influencing society * * That's why I love Project REVOLUTION. I hope it will be a long running venture. Because it has so much potential for tie-ins, for instance with visual arts, politics… Adventurous stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Considering all the negativity comes with mentioning her name, I'd say that being a modern Madonna fan is very punk rock I felt like that during the SEX era as a teen...It really was the breaking point, & imo the best thing that ever happened 2 her...She fucking burnt her 1980's self & gave herself an extra dimension which turned out 2 b crucial in terms of her longevity & legend...Remember it was the MTV grunge era & Gangsta rap...everything of the prior decade seemed ridiculous. so thank god she did that cuz MJ & Prince were 'lame' at that point, of another era. Madonna was just hated & everywhere & it was wonderful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXL Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I felt like that during the SEX era as a teen...It really was the breaking point, & imo the best thing that ever happened 2 her...She fucking burnt her 1980's self & gave herself an extra dimension which turned out 2 b crucial in terms of her longevity & legend...Remember it was the MTV grunge era & Gangsta rap...everything of the prior decade seemed ridiculous. so thank god she did that cuz MJ & Prince were 'lame' at that point, of another era. Madonna was just hated & everywhere & it was wonderful. Bless her for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXL Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Remember it was the MTV grunge era & Gangsta rap...everything of the prior decade seemed ridiculous. so thank god she did that cuz MJ & Prince were 'lame' at that point, of another era. Madonna was just hated & everywhere & it was wonderful. Wasn't that around the time when MJ started getting statues to be erected in his honour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samo Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I honestly don't understand what Madonna did thid time to get this negative attention. She did 2 good performances last week, one for a good cause and people are freaking out in social media because she's "old". But so are Cher, Dolly, Barbra etc. With the Sex era I could understand the criticism but now she gets criticized juat for breathing! It's very weird, it's like people ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO HATE ON HER AND FLIP OUT OVER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrokenButterfly Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Considering all the negativity comes with mentioning her name, I'd say that being a modern Madonna fan is very punk rock As I get closer to thirty, the more I find myself looking up to her. She reminds me that life isn't over after your twenties, no matter how much society pushes it on us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pabl0114 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Really? I think the S&S 4M FACE is her best look to date. You would lol and who would have thought that MDOLLA was paying homage to Queen MJB with the ramen noodle hair? *__* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsaacHarris Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 You would lol and who would have thought that MDOLLA was paying homage to Queen MJB with the ramen noodle hair? *__* Pablo, I can tell you THE EXACT MOMENT my fandom for Madonna kicked in; I was patiently waiting for the 4 Minutes video to premiere on YouTube and BAM! There's a part toward the beginning where she turned around & unveiled the new face... IT WAS A WRAP. The bitch was looking several types of good And I swear, she looked directly into my soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pabl0114 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I felt like that during the SEX era as a teen...It really was the breaking point, & imo the best thing that ever happened 2 her...She fucking burnt her 1980's self & gave herself an extra dimension which turned out 2 b crucial in terms of her longevity & legend...Remember it was the MTV grunge era & Gangsta rap...everything of the prior decade seemed ridiculous. so thank god she did that cuz MJ & Prince were 'lame' at that point, of another era. Madonna was just hated & everywhere & it was wonderful. I totally agree. Looking back, is like she was reborn after the SEX debacle. She was huge 89-91 and the come down from the top was inevitable, at least she did it in a bad ass way, and not just fizzle out. She was incubating during the BS era and was a Phoenix out of the ashes for ROL. Her life is the stuff of myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pabl0114 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Pablo, I can tell you THE EXACT MOMENT my fandom for Madonna kicked in; I was patiently waiting for the 4 Minutes video to premiere on YouTube and BAM! There's a part toward the beginning where she turned around & unveiled the new face... IT WAS A WRAP. The bitch was looking several types of good And I swear, she looked directly into my soul. Lmao! I love your undying love for MDOLLA and HC especially since the era was so negative. I remember those endless threads bitching about HC. MDOLLA for ever! I'm gonna watch the 4M video now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larkspur Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 ^ That made me watch it just now! I wanted to see the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apples388 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I like this article. I do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karbatal Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 As I get closer to thirty, the more I find myself looking up to her. She reminds me that life isn't over after your twenties, no matter how much society pushes it on us all. How on EARTH somebody can think that live is over after your 20s????????????? Life isn't over after your 40s either. And Madonna doesn't have to prove that life isn't over after your 50s!!! My parents are in their 60s and they are having the time of their life. They are retired, and spend their lives dancing and meeting friends. Recently my mother told me "i've never been so happy". It's bitter people who think those things. Thanks Hec for sharing that great article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Very INSIGHTFUL article, with rock-solid ARGUMENTATION. * * Madonna is a brilliant disco ball with a myriad mirrors reflecting and influencing society * * That's why I love Project REVOLUTION. I hope it will be a long running venture. Because it has so much potential for tie-ins, for instance with visual arts, politics… Adventurous stuff! I agree so much. As a concept it's actually quite ingenious. It has the potential to take over social media in the ways that Facebook and tumblr did. However, it would focus on social justice rather than what people had on their burger today. I felt like that during the SEX era as a teen...It really was the breaking point, & imo the best thing that ever happened 2 her...She fucking burnt her 1980's self & gave herself an extra dimension which turned out 2 b crucial in terms of her longevity & legend...Remember it was the MTV grunge era & Gangsta rap...everything of the prior decade seemed ridiculous. so thank god she did that cuz MJ & Prince were 'lame' at that point, of another era. Madonna was just hated & everywhere & it was wonderful. I agree completely. I love her so much. Madonna to me is timeless. Literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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