goldtooth Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I stumbled upon this article. I found it interesting because it was published at the very moment that I consider to be Madonna's zenith. Why the rock world hates Madonna Michael McWilliams / The Detroit News When Madonna won MTV's Viewer's Choice Award last year at Radio City Music Hall, she was booed by the rock cognoscenti in the audience -- not by all, but by enough. It's the first time I'd seen a winner on nationally televised awards show subjected to such abuse, and I found myself asking, "Why her?" After all, she hadn't just been convicted of treason or murder, and the video she won for Like a Prayer, tweaked the blue noses of the very people rock 'n' rollers delight in displeasing. In retrospect, I think Manuel Noriega would've received better treatment, if only because he might have brought better drugs. Madonna is despised in a way only populist artists can be -- she's hated by taste makers and powerbrokers, by racial, sexual and generational majorities. It's telling that she won the MTV award with the votes of viewers, not media mavens -- the same media mavens who put her picture on the covers of their magazines to sell copies to readers they hold in contempt. The gripes about Madonna -- she's cold, greedy, talentless -- conceal both bigotry and the essence of her art, which is among the warmest, the most humane, the most profoundly satisfying in all pop culture. In her new video, Vogue, now playing on MTV, Madonna crystallizes everything she's loved -- and hated -- for. It's a breathtaking piece of work, a black-and-white salute to a dance called vogueing, enveloped by classic Hollywood images of movie-star posing ("Strike the pose," Madonna whispers). At times, the video suggests Bette Davis in Citizen Kane; at others, Blue Velvetcrossed with Sunset Boulevard. Finally, Madonna sings the praises of the deities who've formed her -- Garbo and Dietrich and Brando and Dean and Monroe and DiMaggio. "They had style They had grace Rita Hayworth Gave good face." With Vogue, Madonna cements the adoration of her fans, while fighting a war on two fronts with her enemies. First, she invokes old-Hollywood culture, not rock 'n' roll culture. The Hollywood studio system used to deify women, especially in the '30s and '40s. When that system collapsed in the '60s -- the decade rock 'n' roll came of age -- movies became dominated by young men with movie cameras, and their work was driven by male fantasies, just as rock's had always been. In no time at all, movies and rock weren't just joined at the hip financially (by the conglomerates that owned them), but esthetically, too: "Rockumentaries" were made by boy-auteurs, from Martin Scorsese (The Last Waltz) to Jonathan Demme (Stop Making Sense). Nobody made a "moviementary" about Ida Lupino. Madonna's alienation from the dominance of these two cultures has been enhanced by her allegiance to a third culture: gay culture. Vogueing is a dance that started in gay-black clubs in the '80s, and rock critics have taken Madonna to task for being too slow to bring the dance to the mainstream, as opposed to Janet Jackson's and Paula Abdul's more cutting-edge choreography. But Jackson and Abdul, as marvelous as they are, focus on black street dance (mixed with MGM musicals); they're unlikely to pay homage to the gay artists who've helped them. Neither are rock critics, who are obsessed (properly) with how rock has ripped off black culture, but almost entirely ignore how rock has ripped off gay culture. LITTLE RICHARD , after all, didn't get his makeup in a hardware store, and we won't even talk about Ziggy Stardust. Madonna's defiance of the rock Establishment shows how she's always been in people's faces. Her earliest hits -- Borderline, Like a Virgin -- enraged feminists who thought this cupcake-cum-crucifix was too easily devoured. Then, her gay-culture breakthrough -- Material Girl-- was widely misinterpreted as a paean to Reaganesque riches. What feminists and liberals never understood about Madonna was her thrill in role playing -- changes in hair color, costumes, body tones, complete images -- in much the same way that her greatest fans (gays, blacks, kids and teens) have had to role play in order to survive. Strike the pose! In Vogue, and in her previous video, Express Yourself, Madonna pushes role-playing even further -- into androgyny. She wears mannish suits, albeit with plunging necklines, and grabs her crotch, Michael Jackson-style. Offscreen, she's baited schoolmarms and homophobes by cavorting coquettishly with comedian Sandra Bernhard. If her detractors were threatened by her as a girl-girl (she was too "aggressive," even as a pinup), they certainly don't know what to make of her as a girl-boy. She must be a l-e-s-b-i-a-n, they say. Right? Huh? Whaddaya think?? TRUE TO FORM , Madonna emerged with yet another image in Japan last week to kick off her new world tour (which hits the States May 4 in Houston, and comes to Detroit May 30). Dressed as sort of a Mandarin Barbie, Madonna gave an interview to an MTV reporter backstage, where she tried to explain what she's doing. "It's pro-life," she said, not really referring to abortion. "It's pro-equality and it's pro-humanity." If this remark had been made by some pious speechmaker from U2, it would've inspired a Rolling Stone cover. But Madonna? Boy-Toy of the Decadent West? Too many rock devotees, who've turned a simple love of music into an oppressive religion, like their humanism neat, obvious, sanctimonious: Bruce Springsteen in a bandana singing about his brother in Khe Sanh or Tracy Chapman in downscale drag singing about working in a convenience store, both set to images of poverty and despair and "everyday Americans." But Madonna, who comes on like a Busby Berkeley musical, expresses humanism more subtly, more personally, and without the hypocrisy. As she once cattily confided to Rolling Stone: "I'm not working in a convenience store." IN VOGUE , for example, a slender black man pirouettes while a wind machine keeps his shirt open and swirling around him. It's like a Robert Mapplethorpe photograph come to life, or a more grown-up Peewee's Playhouse(also unheralded as a celebration of varied humanity). It even breaks the black-male stereotypes of the Cosbylike family man and the Murphylike brute. Throughout Vogue, people of all kinds rub against one another in ways that would be banned in Cincinnati, and its lyrics are all such let's-be-free classics as Petula Clark's Downtown ("I know a place where you can get away," Madonna promises) to Smokey Robinson's Going to a Go-Go("It makes no difference if you're black or white, if you're a boy or a girl," she assures.) Unfortunately, Madonna has become such a media "thing" that even the media treat her that way. In a Rolling Stone story last year, she was asked questions like, "What kind of mother do you think you'll be?" and "Do you think you're a bitch?" (Talk about the Madonna/whore complex!). Picking up on Madonna's reputation for being "difficult," the current Vanity Fair goes so far as to be caustic about the star's generous efforts to combat AIDS, noting how gays are "recipients of some of her best 'good' behavior." But would Vanity Fair say that the United Negro College Fund is the recipient of some of Lena Horne's best "good" behavior? There's no doubting Madonna's a handful, something of a user (who isn't?), but in the Vanity Fair piece, you see why she refers to playwright David Mamet's "fascism," and why she walked out on the movie version of Evita because of director Oliver Stone. You see how isolated she is because she won't automatically obey masculine authority ("Bette Davis -- we love you," she whispers in Vogue). The interviewer presses her about being a good businesswoman (she's made $90 million in the last four years), but would he interrogate Prince or Springsteen about their finances? You're left with the question: Is Madonna just a girl who rhymes with "rich"? This question has dogged Madonna since Day One, and it's often asked, or implied, to divert attention from her work, and to pander to people who are scared of her. Madonna isn't hated as a media "thing" -- like Vanna White or Hulk Hogan. She's hated for herself and what she represents. She's hated on political grounds, because of the outcasts she identifies with, and champions (the ones who make her rich, the real Rainbow Coalition). ABOVE ALL , Madonna is hated for her eroticism. These last 10 years of Reagan-Bush America have been like something out of a bad Twilight Zone: Sexuality itself is under attack, and the freedom to express it is threatened. Madonna has fought this -- heroically, and with beauty -- by becoming a threat herself. She's used her imagination at a time when all creativity is suspect, and she's been an unblinking adult at a time when all sophistication is condemned as the work of the devil. For some of us, she's an angel of mercy, because she looks at things reactionaries turn away from, and she says, "Isn't it beautiful?" Michael McWilliams is The Detroit News' television critic. Originally published April 21, 1990 in The Detroit News Detroit News Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boy skeffington Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Wow. Thanks so much for posting. The article rings true even today. I love her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Topaz Scorpio Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I think a lot of the hatred comes from the view from other musicians that M "dumbed down" what it takes to be a pop star, i.e. as long as you have the flash and style and videos and sexuality, you don't need to have solid talent underneath it all. And while that is dismissive of M's actual talents, it does hold some weight by the fact of how the music industry changed in Madonna's wake. I mean, someone like Britney could not have found success without someone like Madonna coming before her. Of course that's not M's fault, and clearly she had more going on than the innumerable number of pop tarts that have come after her, but the industry execs clearly saw her success tied to her sexualized image and provcativeness and wanted to match that with females after her. I also know that other female artists have taken issue with Madonna and the sexuality part. While they respect the fact that M was in control of her sexuality they also don't like the fact that M essentially supported that whole male mindset that female rockers need to be sexual to get attention. This video link below with an interview between Sharon Osbourne and Sheryl Crow sort of highlights that. Sheryl doesn't blame Madonna specifically (and I think she actually likes her) but it's implied. Go to 4:40 for the start of that conversation. http://www.youtube.com/watch#playnext=1&playnext_from=TL&videos=t18lCwBUzRo&v=KNs4wuQA5fk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
songkaiwen Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glindathegood Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I think the article is making something that is actually very simple very complicated. The rock world doesn't like Madonna because she doesn't perform rock guitar based music, but has mostly done dance/pop. I like rock and used to hang out on the alternative rock scene. Unfortunately, the general tone on that scene is that rock is the only valid form of musical expression and if you do some other form of music you lack talent and are a superficial sell out. I just found that so snobby. I love rock, but I also love other forms of music. To me a good song is a good song whether it's rock, pop, dance whatever. You can write bad rock songs just as easily as you can write bad dance songs. But some rock types don't see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Topaz Scorpio Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I think the article is making something that is actually very simple very complicated. The rock world doesn't like Madonna because she doesn't perform rock guitar based music, but has mostly done dance/pop. Then why did Cyndi Lauper get respect from the rock community? Or Donna Summer (disco itself had a stigma but she always had respect)? Or even Lady Gaga today? It's more than just the dance/pop thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I think 80s Madonna has quite a lot of rockist cred nowadays. The 'Rock World' may hate what Madonna *represents* but they love Boderline/Into The Groove/Like A Prayer and many other of her 80s singles. And I don't think Lady GaGa has rock cred (at least not yet). And if she does it's probably only due to all barriers Madonna broke through all those years ago, which has made many aspects of female pop music more credible than they were before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldtooth Posted February 28, 2010 Author Share Posted February 28, 2010 Hmmm, I think we need to remember the date of the article. Madonna has a lot of respect now, after 25 years she's earned it. The Immaculate Collection, which had yet to come out, did a lot to immortalize that first decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glindathegood Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Then why did Cyndi Lauper get respect from the rock community? Or Donna Summer (disco itself had a stigma but she always had respect)? Or even Lady Gaga today? It's more than just the dance/pop thing. How do you define the rock community? The rock types I know certainly don't respect Cyndi, Donna Summer or Gaga any more than they do Madonna. Now there are some people who play and like rock but are open to other kinds of music and those people like and respect Madonna. But I"m talking about the alternative rock community who write for various websites and magazines and run clubs with rock bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 She has been inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame for a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pud Whacker Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 im glad when people hate madonna, in fact i wish a lot more would. weed out the trash. oh, btw, i hate the rock community and it has nothing to do with their take on madonna. theyre big gay haters and hypocrites - both those types scare me. queens freddy mercury, their a-number-one in the 70's was a big cock sucker!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lymon Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I love Rock music but the Rock community just hates Madonna in general (or at least the people i've spoken to). It's crazy why they hate her, since Madonna essentially is a rock star. Her music may be rooted in dance/pop, but she's always had the determination, drive, and energy of a rock star. I think a lot of the Rock community is very sexist, and they see Madonna as a threat because her music is not only successful with the general public, but she empowers women and minorities with it. I mean her music does stretch across all social, racial, and gender boundaries, but many of her songs embrace feminism and empower minorities (Express Yourself and Vogue being just two examples). Also because she is VERY in control of her career and her empire. She's a smart businesswoman and they don't like that. Or at least that's my experience with Madonna-hating rock fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glindathegood Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 im glad when people hate madonna, in fact i wish a lot more would. weed out the trash. oh, btw, i hate the rock community and it has nothing to do with their take on madonna. theyre big gay haters and hypocrites - both those types scare me. queens freddy mercury, their a-number-one in the 70's was a big cock sucker!!!! I think that's a very broad overgeneralization about rockers being homophobic. There aren't that many homophobic lyrics in rock songs that I'm aware of, certainly not as many as in rap songs. Yes, a lot of people on the rock scene are straight but at least in the alternative part most are very liberal and supporting of gay rights. Maybe there is more homophobia among heavy metal or hair band of the 80's, but it's not that prevalent, certainly not as much as in rap and hip hop. If anything it's the gay community that has a bigoted opinion against rock and tends to reject things with guitars and rock based, not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pud Whacker Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I think that's a very broad overgeneralization about rockers being homophobic. There aren't that many homophobic lyrics in rock songs that I'm aware of, certainly not as many as in rap songs. Yes, a lot of people on the rock scene are straight but at least in the alternative part most are very liberal and supporting of gay rights. Maybe there is more homophobia among heavy metal or hair band of the 80's, but it's not that prevalent, certainly not as much as in rap and hip hop. If anything it's the gay community that has a bigoted opinion against rock and tends to reject things with guitars and rock based, not the other way around. im talking about growing up in the 70's and feeling and fighting that hate. i associate them with that. i know many gay rockers now. that article was written with the people i was discussing in mind. theyre not talking about evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I disagree with most things being said in this thread.. In fact I think it's most fags who r ridiculous in their attitude towards rock music... & where do u get the idea that the rock 'community' hates Madonna??? It's not 1987 anymore, Dorothy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Topaz Scorpio Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 How do you define the rock community? The rock types I know certainly don't respect Cyndi, Donna Summer or Gaga any more than they do Madonna. Now there are some people who play and like rock but are open to other kinds of music and those people like and respect Madonna. But I"m talking about the alternative rock community who write for various websites and magazines and run clubs with rock bands. I was speaking about actual rock performers like Alice Cooper, Elton John, Ozzy Osbourne, Annie Lennox, and Marilyn Manson who have all praised Gaga. And while I can't find articles with rockers praising pop stars from back in the 70's and 80's I don't recall Cyndi and Donna getting any of the shit that Madonna did from the rock community back in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolidayGuy Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 It's a sweeping generalization to say that the rock "community" doesn't respect Madonna- a number of rock acts actually have and do. For instance, Spin magazine included her in its Alternative Album Guide, and Trouser Press includes her on its site, as well. It's how she's always had a rock-and-roll approach to her work, and in her expression that's given her a foot in the "avant-garde" music world. There's always been the unabashed sexual expression that got her some detractors, but that comes with the territory. Neither Cyndi Lauper or Donna Summer (save for a simulated orgasm on record) did anything close to what Madonna did, in terms of expression, so they wouldn't get that kind of flack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
promise to try Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 ACTUALLY she was respected by the rock comunity, the rock community that didn´t follow the grammyes, or AOR artists... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glittercandy Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Rock community thinks Madonna is no talent that does not write her own songs and is fake. Alot of rock artists from the 80s do hate her.especially the rock women.. The response i hear most is "she doesnt write her own music" I think its jealousy because she became a huge star. On the other hand its true they all worship Gaga and say "she writes her own songs", even though everything is co-written and she doesn't play rock music. Maybe there is more homophobia among heavy metal or hair band of the 80's, but it's not that prevalent, certainly not as much as in rap and hip hop. I agree, No one in the rock community seemed to care when Rob Halford from Judas priest announced he was gay. I think alot of those 80s hair bands were bi even though they wont admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsaacHarris Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 ABOVE ALL , Madonna is hated for her eroticism. These last 10 years of Reagan-Bush America have been like something out of a bad Twilight Zone: Sexuality itself is under attack, and the freedom to express it is threatened. Madonna has fought this -- heroically, and with beauty -- by becoming a threat herself. She's used her imagination at a time when all creativity is suspect, and she's been an unblinking adult at a time when all sophistication is condemned as the work of the devil. For some of us, she's an angel of mercy, because she looks at things reactionaries turn away from, and she says, "Isn't it beautiful?" ^ THAT sums it all up quite nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apples388 Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I disagree with most things being said in this thread.. In fact I think it's most fags who r ridiculous in their attitude towards rock music... & where do u get the idea that the rock 'community' hates Madonna??? It's not 1987 anymore, Dorothy. DARL, why do you always have to be so right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrolito Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 What rock community? Who and where are they? Great article from back in the day, and a lot of it still holds true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 im glad when people hate madonna, in fact i wish a lot more would. weed out the trash. oh, btw, i hate the rock community and it has nothing to do with their take on madonna. theyre big gay haters and hypocrites - both those types scare me. queens freddy mercury, their a-number-one in the 70's was a big cock sucker!!!! aaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha. Love it. I listen to a lot of music, but I don't buy into ANY of the group mentalities/posturing. A lot of people have negative things to say about the queen of the universe due to jealousy. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ULIZOS Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 People were pissed off when Madonna played at Coachella. Blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 People were pissed off when Madonna played at Coachella. Blah. But no musicians or people that matter..Just the kind that remain juvenile cunts all their life..Listen If Bawb Dylan is impressed by Madonna then that's good enough 4 me..Buncha fucking posers in their CBGB's t-shirts oblivious 2 the fact that Madonna actually PLAYED at CBGB's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayaredee Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 But no musicians or people that matter..Just the kind that remain juvenile cunts all their life..Listen If Bawb Dylan is impressed by Madonna then that's good enough 4 me..Buncha fucking posers in their CBGB's t-shirts oblivious 2 the fact that Madonna actually PLAYED at CBGB's Has Bob Dylan complimented Madonna? I would love it if he did. I <3 Dylan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Coked Up Baby Boy Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I have no idea what rock musicians thoughts on Madonna's "rock cred" are, but you're everyday rock fan, from what i've seen, doesn't like Madonna simply because she doesn't sing rock music. They could care less about her "rock style attitude", the fact is, many of them think she's just pop music fluffery. Rock fans, or whatever you want to call them, can be a rather pretentious bunch though, so i've never taken offence to their gripes about Madonna's comparisons to "rock music". Whatever, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Has Bob Dylan complimented Madonna? I would love it if he did. I <3 Dylan Yeah but it was more a comment about her rather than her work.. I think it was Rolling Stone circa 1999-2000 where he said he's not usually fased by anyone famous but that he was really impressed by Madonna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayaredee Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Yeah but it was more a comment about her rather than her work.. I think it was Rolling Stone circa 1999-2000 where he said he's not usually fased by anyone famous but that he was really impressed by Madonna. Oh i love it. That's all I need too. Though I would have loved Bowie's approval Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Oh i love it. That's all I need too. Though I would have loved Bowie's approval Bowie said Kylie makes elevator music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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