Nikki Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 guess that means Picasso & his work are culturally appropriation as well, as african masks were his inspiration. he must also hate women because he always used women in his work and not in the most flattering ways. really, if you think about it you can start writing essays and finding problems in ANYTHING. and i agree, it's usually the white people (especially females) who are politically correct (and hypocritical, probably) that find problems with everything. pseudo feminists, that "feminist" site that always does anti-women friendly articles about women & tumblr gave all that shit a platform. and that amandla stenberg girl from game of thrones also started feeding those idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Most of the Cultural Appropriation police are white people who think they speak on behalf of another race. It bores me. I remember how all the westerners were trying to act like that Avril Lavigne Hello Kitty music video was the most racist thing in the world whereas pretty much all Asians including me thought it was cute of Avril to pay tribute to our culture. I know a friend who disapproved of Madonna's Paradise Not For Me video because it was cultural appropriation - ugh. I thought it was a BEAUTIFUL representation of my culture and it made me feel so proud to be Asian. People seem to think that all cultural appropriation is a bad thing whereas I think it's possible to 'appropriate' a culture in a positive way like Madonna did with Paradise, that whole segment in DWT (with Sky Fits Heaven and Frozen) and Nothing Really Matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rocco Papa Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 First of all, Madonna hired dancers (Luis, Jose) who came from the vogueing culture. They were part of that whole scene. It's not like she left them all in the dust, she gave them credit where credit was due and treated them with respect. Second of all, I believe the problem lies with the people making these claims. People (particularly young people who use social media) are overly sensitive. Madonna has been culturally appropriating throughout her career. Remember the geisha look during Nothing Really Matters? These people seem to have forgotten that the only time cultural appropriation is wrong is when it's used to mock a certain culture. Cultural appropriation can be used in other was, however. If you ask me, saying Madonna shouldn't do or say certain things just because she's white is racist. But then, you'll get the same overly sensitive folks claiming that's not possible, because she is privileged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pud Whacker Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I think the White Community needs an appropriation spokesperson that speaks of Michael Jackson ripping off Fred Astaire and black women trying to have long flowing white women hair. Sound ridiculous? Exactly. So does this article and that fucking stupid Bell Hooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shine Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Am I appropriating Pud's culture when I post a Madonna photo on Instagram, using the hashtag #fantastique ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rachelle of London Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Clearly the people that write this crap have never travelled. When you visit places you explore different lands, taste different food, clothing etc it does inspire you. Maybe if they got out of Ohio or wherever they'd have a different mindset. I'm still convinced the media is trying to cause racial tensions with this obvious racial baiting. It reminds me of this MP for Wood Green in London which is one of the most diverse areas in the cities, and the MP is a white lady. She stated that she's worried about having Christmas lights up because that would offend the Turkish and Muslim communities in the area. That drive people mad. People were smashing the windows of the local mosque, spitting at Muslims so the leader of the mosque asked her publicly where she got that information about Christmas offending Muslim residents. She then had to publicly apologise because she said that it was just her opinion. Meanwhile in the last election UKIP have done really well in that area and I high believe it's because of all that controversy. All this BS is doing is segregating communities. It pisses me off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5iVe Elements Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 THOSE PEOPLE ARE FUCKING IDIOTS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dolla Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 You guys aren't even going to try to step back and understand why people might find this objectionable? Madonna monetized a form of cultural expression specific to oppressed, financially destitute gay men and trans women of color. She made many millions of dollars repackaging Voguing for the (white, cis, straight) general public that were forcing the people who created Voguing into poverty. Many of them were homeless, many stealing food to survive, resorting to sex work to get by, being attacked and murdered on the streets.. but I guess to you all a year's worth of a modest dancer's salary for a handful of boys from the Balls is enough to counteract the millions Madonna made off their backs? I love Vogue but let's try and have some perspective here. Consider what's being said instead of just dismissing it because we all love Madonna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shine Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 OK, so please explain this to me (and that's a real question : how does Madonna using voguing force dancers into poverty ? It's never been a hidden fact where she got it from, so you'd think she shed a light on these people. Yet, in a context of cultural appropriation, it backfires to her. She's just another example, but it's the same scenario for many artists, and I completely fail to see why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larkspur Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 You guys aren't even going to try to step back and understand why people might find this objectionable? Madonna monetized a form of cultural expression specific to oppressed, financially destitute gay men and trans women of color. She made many millions of dollars repackaging Voguing for the (white, cis, straight) general public that were forcing the people who created Voguing into poverty. Many of them were homeless, many stealing food to survive, resorting to sex work to get by, being attacked and murdered on the streets.. but I guess to you all a year's worth of a modest dancer's salary for a handful of boys from the Balls is enough to counteract the millions Madonna made off their backs? I love Vogue but let's try and have some perspective here. Consider what's being said instead of just dismissing it because we all love Madonna. You have a very misguided view of the lives and experiences of the general public and what "they" have done. Who's "they or the general public?" You also have have a very misguided view of Madonna. Your opinion must have been misguided because you certainly have not been following her career for any length of time. It's also patronizing to put down people so horribly and say that you love them. It's offensive to lump the general public together with the actions of people with hate in their hearts. I really don't think people realize what they say sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Barthes Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 The M.I.A controversy over her new video is beyond ridiculous. Seriously this is what lack of shcool funds and cheap programs with non stop access to the internet is getting us to : opiniated dummies ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shine Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 The M.I.A controversy over her new video is beyond ridiculous. Seriously this is what lack of shcool funds and cheap programs with non stop access to the internet is getting us to : opiniated dummies ! ♥ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dolla Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 You have a very misguided view of the lives and experiences of the general public and what "they" have done. Who's "they or the general public?" You also have have a very misguided view of Madonna. Your opinion must have been misguided because you certainly have not been following her career for any length of time. It's also patronizing to put down people so horribly and say that you love them. It's offensive to lump the general public together with the actions of people with hate in their hearts. I really don't think people realize what they say sometimes.Where did I put down Madonna, exactly? Did I say she released Vogue with the expressed intent of exploiting Drag Ball culture to make money? Absolutely not. I assumed I wouldn't have to explain Madonna's intentions since we all know what they were. The discussion in this thread previous to my post was overly dismissive of the retroactive criticism of Vogue imo and I was simply trying to get people to avoid blanket dismissals.Also, it would be a revisionist fantasy to suggest the general public in 1990 was not grossly homophobic and transphobic. You can miss me with that. I feel you're the one who is being patronizing in this exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXL Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 While I do understand the antagonism against cultural/artistic appropriation, you simply cannot put anything out into the Universe and expect it to remain yours forever. If you don't want people copying your art/dancing, keep it locked in a basement forever (or better yet in your mind). Even with the Internet we can see where this is going...eventually nothing expressed will be solely yours anymore. Exactly And I love how some people claim Madonna has stolen from black or gay culture. As if she didn't find herself immersed in them from way before she even made to NY in 1977. Anyone who's actually bothered to read about her beginnings and even her childhood would surely grasp this. This cultural appropriation debate is so tiring and easily manipulable. One thing is stealing or mimicking, another is being informed by what surrounds you and having a genuine, organic connection to it which she certainly does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nefarious Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 So, you cannot be inspired by other cultures and use it in your art if those cultures are impoverished or oppressed? Why? It's not Madonna's fault that society looks down upon certain groups and ignored the original vogue-culture; her bringing voguing into the public eye did not cause this community to lose anything, it did not subject them to further poverty. Quite the contrary, it likely shed more light on them, and as was already mentioned Madonna was always transparent about where voguing came from and that she did not invent it herself. I guess it's just easy to blame Madonna, rather than pointing the finger at society. It's like with twerking - people were criticizing Miley Cyrus for doing it since, when a white person does it, it's automatically embraced but if a black person does it, they are condemned and seen as lesser. I agree with this criticism to an effect, the double-standard is bullshit. But that's not really Miley's fault, is it? It's the entire society needs fixing, and I don't think discouraging people from loving and embracing other cultures is really the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larkspur Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Where did I put down Madonna, exactly? Did I say she released Vogue with the expressed intent of exploiting Drag Ball culture to make money? Absolutely not. I assumed I wouldn't have to explain Madonna's intentions since we all know what they were. The discussion in this thread previous to my post was overly dismissive of the retroactive criticism of Vogue imo and I was simply trying to get people to avoid blanket dismissals. Also, it would be a revisionist fantasy to suggest the general public in 1990 was not grossly homophobic and transphobic. You can miss me with that. I feel you're the one who is being patronizing in this exchange. If people are truly thought of as individuals and Madonna's intentions were clear to you then in judging someone actions or expression, their intention means nothing? You mentioned that we should step back and see a problem with Vogue even though you and others understand Madonna's intentions. Why? If Vogue made no money would it be more honorable? It was intended to be a b side so hit wasn't the first thought into making this song. I wasn't suggesting anything but looking at the individual. Everyone counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shine Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 in judging someone actions or expression, their intention means nothing? Well, one of the big SJW principles is "in what universe is it up to the one who did/said something oppressive to say whether it was meant to oppress or not ?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dolla Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 If people are truly thought of as individuals and Madonna's intentions were clear to you then in judging someone actions or expression, their intention means nothing? You mentioned that we should step back and see a problem with Vogue even though you and others understand Madonna's intentions. Why? If Vogue made no money would it be more honorable? It was intended to be a b side so hit wasn't the first thought into making this song. I wasn't suggesting anything but looking at the individual. Everyone counts. The answer to your question of why there might be a problem with Vogue is in my original post, which I don't feel you ever truly acknowledged. I don't want to go in circles so I'm not going to reiterate myself and talk about the hypothetical scenarios you're presenting when you aren't even willing to consider what I have to say. If you want to consider individuals, consider the individuals from the balls who felt wronged and robbed by Madonna and Vogue. A lot of people talk like the first people to ever have a problem with Vogue were white teenagers on Tumblr decades later, when that isn't the case. Could you blame them for being resentful? For finding it unfair Madonna was making so much money off Vogue when they were poor, homeless, barely getting by? Can you blame other people for seeing a problem with Vogue for the same reasons? I don't. I feel terrible for Willi Ninja every time I watch Paris is Burning during the scene where he talks about his dreams of globalizing voguing and riding the dance he was so involved with advancing to cultural notoriety, knowing Madonna would end up living out his dream a few years later. Please understand there is a middle ground between the equally silly narratives of "Madonna is an exploitive racist that should be abhorred" and "anyone who says a negative word about Madonna's cultural appropriation is a fool." Vogue is one of my favorite Madonna songs and videos despite its baggage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rocco Papa Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 The answer to your question of why there might be a problem with Vogue is in my original post, which I don't feel you ever truly acknowledged. I don't want to go in circles so I'm not going to reiterate myself and talk about the hypothetical scenarios you're presenting when you aren't even willing to consider what I have to say. If you want to consider individuals, consider the individuals from the balls who felt wronged and robbed by Madonna and Vogue. A lot of people talk like the first people to ever have a problem with Vogue were white teenagers on Tumblr decades later, when that isn't the case. Could you blame them for being resentful? For finding it unfair Madonna was making so much money off Vogue when they were poor, homeless, barely getting by? Can you blame other people for seeing a problem with Vogue for the same reasons? I don't. I feel terrible for Willi Ninja every time I watch Paris is Burning during the scene where he talks about his dreams of globalizing voguing and riding the dance he was so involved with advancing to cultural notoriety, knowing Madonna would end up living out his dream a few years later. Please understand there is a middle ground between the equally silly narratives of "Madonna is an exploitive racist that should be abhorred" and "anyone who says a negative word about Madonna's cultural appropriation is a fool." Vogue is one of my favorite Madonna songs and videos despite its baggage. If Madonna feels inspired to write a song, she shouldn't have to withhold her artistic vision just because of her position as a mainstream artist. And, furthermore, if those people are resentful of the attention Madonna got (that she has absolutely no control over by the way), then they're wasting time and not focusing the real problem that's keeping them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wade Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) What people seem to forget is that Vogue was never meant to be the phenomenon it became! She recorded it as a B side! So when people say she stole something, I have to disagree, the success of Vogue was a pure fluke,it wasn't like she saw people voguing in the clubs sat down and thought I'm going to take this dance,write a song and have a huge worldwide hit from it and earn millions of dollars. Her inspiration at the time was to write a song called Vogue and release it as the B side to the 5th single from Like A Prayer! Had it not been for the insight of some exec at Warner Bros,who upon hearing Vogue,said that it was too good to waste as a B side,Madonna would never have had one of her biggest hits,and people wouldn't be saying that she had appropriated anything!! Edited May 22, 2015 by Paul Wade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 The answer to your question of why there might be a problem with Vogue is in my original post, which I don't feel you ever truly acknowledged. I don't want to go in circles so I'm not going to reiterate myself and talk about the hypothetical scenarios you're presenting when you aren't even willing to consider what I have to say. If you want to consider individuals, consider the individuals from the balls who felt wronged and robbed by Madonna and Vogue. A lot of people talk like the first people to ever have a problem with Vogue were white teenagers on Tumblr decades later, when that isn't the case. Could you blame them for being resentful? For finding it unfair Madonna was making so much money off Vogue when they were poor, homeless, barely getting by? Can you blame other people for seeing a problem with Vogue for the same reasons? I don't. I feel terrible for Willi Ninja every time I watch Paris is Burning during the scene where he talks about his dreams of globalizing voguing and riding the dance he was so involved with advancing to cultural notoriety, knowing Madonna would end up living out his dream a few years later. Please understand there is a middle ground between the equally silly narratives of "Madonna is an exploitive racist that should be abhorred" and "anyone who says a negative word about Madonna's cultural appropriation is a fool." Vogue is one of my favorite Madonna songs and videos despite its baggage. ugh you're the absolute worst writing essays is not gonna make us change our opinion. she is NOT using "poor cultures" to earn millions. she actually gave jobs to those dancers who also vogued and who helped her with it, so she did a good thing. ugh i can't even bother explaining, I just can't believe some people fall for this PC BULLSHIT. wake the FUCK UP. if youre now not allowed to be inspired by other cultures, then where the fuck is our world coming to? white people should only be inspired by white shit and black people by their shit? what the fuck do you think is gonna happen then? people are only gonna become more isolated, and yes.. RACIST. because the smallest fucking thing is dissected and wrongly interpreted just for the sake of being angry and writing essays. it's all about flattering your own ego, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 the other user made a point: maybe some people should write about michael jackson culturally appropriating/stealing from fred astaire or the poor kids whose videos he saw and whose moves he stole while making millions off of it. but of course we can't say that bc mj is black and he's allowed to do anything (including taking from other cultures that aren't black.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VogueMusic Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Here's a "Cultural Appropriation Bingo Card" from that fabulous site known as 'Jezebel'... basically if you say anything of these things, they say you're making racist excuses (some of them are stupid, but c'mon...) - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jan Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Let's not turn this into a racial debate by attacking black artists as well. Makes this discussion take a truly ugly turn. This is just a politically correct load of nonsense and the people writing about it should instead be writing about the real racism, sexism and cruelty that goes on in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VogueMusic Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I understand people being upset at certain people who profit off of and are given credit for certain things that specific, often minority groups, create and innovate, and want to take to the world themselves. But if that person did so with integrity, respect, involving people from that group/culture, etc... the real finger should be pointed at the system itself...the system that doesn't give the proper respect or credit to the minority...and the to the mass public that hasn't been enlightened yet to be open to those things. Not to the individual/artist that may have benefited in a respectful, dignified way...let alone cast a much-needed light on those communities and their issues, self-expressions, etc. (and one in which they put those people at the forefront, in the spotlight, as Madonna did with the video, the tour, the iconic documentary, the list goes on...) Get mad at the inequities of the system, the media, etc... I think that's one of the things about the whole SJW thing that's so infuriating...it's not only 'how' they direct their anger/offense, but even more so 'where'..... Let's not turn this into a racial debate by attacking black artists as well. Makes this discussion take a truly ugly turn. This is just a politically correct load of nonsense and the people writing about it should instead be writing about the real racism, sexism and cruelty that goes on in the world. Well, there is something to be said for that. A great deal of these groups/sites often only point the finger at the 'privileged' majority....but when minorities do these very same things, they're often much more quiet...if not silent. Just an observation from trolling SJW sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dolla Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 ugh you're the absolute worst writing essays is not gonna make us change our opinion. she is NOT using "poor cultures" to earn millions. she actually gave jobs to those dancers who also vogued and who helped her with it, so she did a good thing. ugh i can't even bother explaining, I just can't believe some people fall for this PC BULLSHIT. wake the FUCK UP. if youre now not allowed to be inspired by other cultures, then where the fuck is our world coming to? white people should only be inspired by white shit and black people by their shit? what the fuck do you think is gonna happen then? people are only gonna become more isolated, and yes.. RACIST. because the smallest fucking thing is dissected and wrongly interpreted just for the sake of being angry and writing essays. it's all about flattering your own ego, really. lmao 😩 spare me the dramatics, and please don't pretend there's anything for you to explain to me as if I don't understand your reactionary talking points that have already been posted in this thread by a dozen other people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rachelle of London Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Let's not turn this into a racial debate by attacking black artists as well. Makes this discussion take a truly ugly turn. This is just a politically correct load of nonsense and the people writing about it should instead be writing about the real racism, sexism and cruelty that goes on in the world. It Always takes an ugly turn these days I've noticed. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Here's a "Cultural Appropriation Bingo Card" from that fabulous site known as 'Jezebel'... basically if you say anything of these things, they say you're making racist excuses (some of them are stupid, but c'mon...) - this is so wrong.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemo64 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Seriously, if you want to see how fucked up this whole argument is...just Google "Cultural Appropriation" and delve into a steaming pile of crazy ass bullshit ..... Go ahead...Google "Cultural Appropriation" and experience the insanity. Of course it's insane. The "issue" has been hijacked into becoming a farce through media and SJW exploitation and giving grievance-mongers an audience. Bet you didn’t know that white people eating tacos falls into the category of “cultural appropriation.” Well, it does now. This past May 5 — a.k.a. Cinco de Mayo — two colleges canceled or significantly altered their annual “Phi Phiesta” taco-bar fundraisers after complaints about cultural appropriation from offended Latino student organizations. The irony was that on the very same day, May 5, CNN.com’s Cindy Y. Rodriguez, editor for Latino audiences, wrote an article saying that it was OK for gringos to eat Mexican food to celebrate Cinco de Mayo, as long as they didn’t overdo the nachos and tequila. The article, a list of Cinco de Mayo do’s and don’ts, explained that although wearing a sombrero and a fake mustache that day might perpetuate offensive stereotypes of Mexicans, a celebratory margarita or two would be fine. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-cultural-appropriation-complaints-20140520-story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lum Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Y'all ignorance tires me out M-Dolla gets it. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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