Are you ready for an indie Madonna?

[mnino]

Why do people want Madonna to be an indie artist??

Madonna has been a superstar since 1985. Yeah, she had slower commercial eras (Erotica and AL) but overall, until MDNA, she was still a force commercially. Rebel Heart has been mostly acclaimed by fans and critics and she has done more promo than her two last albums combined. Yet, her sales are abysmal (for her standards) even if you put into account the decline of sales and rise of streaming. Yes, it may still be early to declare RH a commercial failure but barring an unexpected change of course, RH will be her lowest selling album ever by a big margin.

So what's the big deal? Some fans have been wanting her to record "indie" or "innovative" music ever since she released ROL. But why? Doesn't it make one content to have 4 to 5 album tracks that fit that description and 4 to 5 songs that are commercially viable and have mass appeal?

I love indie music and there are plenty of indie artists out there to be enjoyed that I just can't get my head around people wanting Madonna release that same kind of music as singles. Oh, but we want quality! Well, her whole 80's output had quality and it was as commercial as they could have been. These songs aged well but didn't sound out of place with everything else that was being played on the radio in the 80's.

Last year, there were many that were so afraid of the Avicii sound destroying the "quality" of her music. Madonna, a superstar, cannot have music that sounds like music that is actually being overplayed on the radio. No, she needs to have music that sounds like the songs you can brag about to your friends that never heard of the band/artist.

Imagine if she were to have Max Martin produce an album?? It would be the end of the world. Forget that he pretty much is responsible for Katy Perry, Pink, Kelly Clarkson and Britney Spears careers. I wonder how LAV would have sounded without the "dated" sound of Nile Rodgers in 1985 since he already had been all over the radio with MJ's Thriller album and David Bowie's Let's Dance. And "Like A Virgin" borrows heavily from Billie Jean.

I guess, I'm annoyed that RH has been neutered from its commercial potential. Does that mean that she should have avoided songs like Holy Water and SEX? No. But WAOM and RH had wider appeal in their earlier stages than most final versions on the album. The leaks probably kept many from buying the record but let's not fool ourselves, if the album was indeed a hit, it would be streaming well which it isn't.

There are so many things that have contributed to this culmination of events that this post is grossly simplistic, so pardon my ranting. I just wanted to vent my frustration with the whole Madonna-as-an-indie act train of thought.

I want Madonna be the POP icon that she is. Not a progressive, indie darling. I want her to have songs that are widely loved and known and to keep her experimental and less commercial songs to no more than half of each album.

I'm not ready for an indie Madonna, are you?

Rant is over.

[Elysium]

We just have to factor in that Madonna is an older established artist and that times have changed. We can no longer expect her to have the mass commercial impact she once had back in the 80s, late 90s and early/mid noughties because the whole context for pop music has drastically changed and continues to do so at a rapid pace.

In many ways Madonna has always traversed the divide between commercial and indie music with her tendency to experiment with new inventive sounds and genres on her albums. It's her skill for combining infectious pop melodies with experimental beats and sounds which has made her the 'edgy' icon that she is. So it would not be entirely shocking to the general public if she brought out a rock album, a jazz album, a dubstep album, an ambient album, etc. She would take to it like a duck to water. What's important is that she is still making music that she loves.

I think she has done incredibly well in recent years with MDNA hitting the number one spot on the album charts and the critical acclaim she is receiving for the recent Rebel Heart album. What other musical artist in history whether male or female can boast of the same career accolades at the age of 56?

I guess to answer your question a little more directly, Madonna already is and always has been an indie artist to some extent in terms of her sound and aesthetic. She was a punk from the very beginning.

[Glindathegood]

What is indie? When I hear the words indie, I think of the kind of music that is promoted on a site like Pitchfork or in NME, guitar based rock leaning songs.

Clearly, Madonna doesn't make that kind of music. In fact, when I first read the heading, I thought you were going to suggest she go in that direction. But are you using indie to mean anything that isn't a big hit on the radio? I think that is kind of an overbroad definition since it would mean practically 99% of music being released.

Rebel Heart is to me still very much pop, dance, and R&B based accessible melodic music, which is not indie or experimental really, but Madonna music.

When Madonna started out in the 80's, she was very much in line with most pop artists of the time who were very involved in writing and creating their own music maybe with some help from a producer. Think of artists like Cyndi Lauper, Duran Duran, Wham/George Michael etc, who wrote their own melodies and lyrics but with production help. Somewhere along the line pop music has changed so that artists aren't that involved in creating their own melodies and sound, but need to have some producer create the whole sound for them. Is that what we want Madonna to be merely to be played on the radio and be current?

She said in numerous interviews in this era she tried to write good songs with good melodies on guitar or with other people playing piano, and think of the production style or trying to be current second.

Madonna's music has always been a combination of pop commercial accessible music but with an innovative twist, not quite like every other mainstream artist on the radio. Rebel Heart I think is very much in the same tradition.

I've always liked Madonna because her music appeals to me and if other people like it and it's a hit, great. But I didn't like her merely because she was successful and had radio hits if I didn't like the actual music. Madonna doesn't have to have hits to be Madonna, she just has to write good songs in her unique style that I as a fan relate to.

[nick00]

For me personally, I much prefer M when she's a little more experimental and innovative in her music (ROL, Music, AL, half of Confessions, etc.)

Her eighties mega hits are her most popular songs, but I've always preferred her nineties and early to mid 00s musical and artistic output.

I would love for her to release a single that was unexpected with a great and interesting video (no cheap shit) instead of some generic single that most people will reject anyway.

[Bill]

I want her to make whatever kind of music she wants to make. I would never have described Rebel Heart's style as something I wanted her to do but it turns out it's everything I ever wanted without even knowing it.

[tuckeye]

indie as in sales.

[Guest HaveASit]

Yeah, I would be here 100% for her own "Apartment Life". What an amazing album

[IDareUBambi]

Indie music is far from just guitar rock. There's a whole dance scene.

I mean one of the reasons why I like a lot of indie dance music is because it sounds like 80's Madonna.

Everyone wants her to go back to Pat Leonard or Stephen Bray but I hear a song like "Whorehouse" by CEO and I'm like damn Madonna should work with him because it sounds like something off of "True Blue".

A lot of acts like Hot Chip and Cut Copy and Tough Alliance are clearly inspired by Madonna's music. I would have loved for her to work with Yeasayer that would have tapped into her "Ray of Light" era.

[IDareUBambi]

Here's a good example. This song sounds like it was written for Madonna.

And here's "Whorehouse"

Like her working with CEO could have given us modern songs in the vein of "Open Your Heart" and "White Heat".

Edited March 26, 2015 by IDareUBambi

[Iconic Fetus]

I'd love it, it will mean that only her true fans will support her and it will be only fans at the concerts, good bye to the casualt listener.

[IDareUBambi]

What is indie? When I hear the words indie, I think of the kind of music that is promoted on a site like Pitchfork or in NME, guitar based rock leaning songs.

Clearly, Madonna doesn't make that kind of music. In fact, when I first read the heading, I thought you were going to suggest she go in that direction. But are you using indie to mean anything that isn't a big hit on the radio? I think that is kind of an overbroad definition since it would mean practically 99% of music being released.

Rebel Heart is to me still very much pop, dance, and R&B based accessible melodic music, which is not indie or experimental really, but Madonna music.

When Madonna started out in the 80's, she was very much in line with most pop artists of the time who were very involved in writing and creating their own music maybe with some help from a producer. Think of artists like Cyndi Lauper, Duran Duran, Wham/George Michael etc, who wrote their own melodies and lyrics but with production help. Somewhere along the line pop music has changed so that artists aren't that involved in creating their own melodies and sound, but need to have some producer create the whole sound for them. Is that what we want Madonna to be merely to be played on the radio and be current?

She said in numerous interviews in this era she tried to write good songs with good melodies on guitar or with other people playing piano, and think of the production style or trying to be current second.

Madonna's music has always been a combination of pop commercial accessible music but with an innovative twist, not quite like every other mainstream artist on the radio. Rebel Heart I think is very much in the same tradition.

I've always liked Madonna because her music appeals to me and if other people like it and it's a hit, great. But I didn't like her merely because she was successful and had radio hits if I didn't like the actual music. Madonna doesn't have to have hits to be Madonna, she just has to write good songs in her unique style that I as a fan relate to.

I can't say I agree with that.

Not going back to "Everybody".

Madonna was apart of dance.

Cyndi and Duran Duran were New Wave pop.

Madonna, to me, was a pioneer in commercializing electronic dance music. She was club music. Of course she went more commercial but I don't think she was New Wave. She came from like the "Let The Music Play", "Last Night A DJ Saved My Life", "I Didn't Mean To Turn You On" scene.

[IDareUBambi]

I'd love it, it will mean that only her true fans will support her and it will be only fans at the concerts, good bye to the casualt listener.

The casual listeners have been gone for like 15 years.

Look at Beyonce. She said "fuck the radio" and dropped Self-Titled. Urban loved it, indie loved it, critics loved it, she won. Pop fans hate Beyonce, she sells without their support.

I think Madonna needs to appeal to the Indie pop fans who love acts like Robyn, Little Boots, Icona Pop, Charli XCX, Lykke Li and sell based off of making great edgy pop music that appeals to the 25 - 30 age bracket of indie/pop fans than the Miley and Rihanna kids. I think songs like "Ghosttown" was a step in the right direction.

I love "Rebel Heart" but at the same time, a lot of that music is for the type of pop audiences who don't buy albums. Songs like "Holy Water" and "Bitch I'm Madonna" appeal to the $1.29 music lovers or free streamers.

Edited March 26, 2015 by IDareUBambi

[Jazzy Jan]

I agree with you Mnino. Never ever want to hear Madonna referred to as an Indie act. She is the Queen of Pop, the biggest female superstar ever. I am also tired of people rubbishing her output in the 80's. I don't expect people to love it or even like it, but the way some fans dismiss the music that made her a superstar ( and what she wanted to do - she picked Nile Rogers to produce ) is the same as fans who dismiss her latest work. I don't expect Madonna to have sales like she used to. I don't have any illusions that a woman in her 50's is going to have the same sales as she did in her 20's and 30's. Unfortunately that is the way of the world. However, I always will celebrate Madonna as a superstar. As for Rebel Heart, I love it. People that call music "dated" when it is just a year old ie Avicci, also amaze me. Are attention spans and taste in music that small that music production has to change every year ?

[IDareUBambi]

I agree with you Mnino. Never ever want to hear Madonna referred to as an Indie act. She is the Queen of Pop, the biggest female superstar ever. I am also tired of people rubbishing her output in the 80's. I don't expect people to love it or even like it, but the way some fans dismiss the music that made her a superstar ( and what she wanted to do - she picked Nile Rogers to produce ) is the same as fans who dismiss her latest work. I don't expect Madonna to have sales like she used to. I don't have any illusions that a woman in her 50's is going to have the same sales as she did in her 20's and 30's. Unfortunately that is the way of the world. However, I always will celebrate Madonna as a superstar. As for Rebel Heart, I love it. People that call music "dated" when it is just a year old ie Avicci, also amaze me. Are attention spans and taste in music that small that music production has to change every year ?

Yes, that's why Madonna changed her sound on every record and why she's lasted so long.

"Hard Candy", "MDNA", and "Rebel Heart" would have been the equivalent if Madonna had worked with Stock Aitken Waterman, Full Force, and Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis in the 80's.

Pat, Stephen, Shep, Andre, Orbit, Mirwais, and Stuart were nobodies and certainly not seen good enough to work with this big superstar. I don't see what's different from them and an indie producer/artist today.

And Im new to this board but not a new Madonna fan and I know the LAV album isn't at the top of any fans list.

[Jazzy Jan]

Yes, that's why Madonna changed her sound on every record and why she's lasted so long.

"Hard Candy", "MDNA", and "Rebel Heart" would have been the equivalent if Madonna had worked with Stock Aitken Waterman, Full Force, and Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis in the 80's.

Pat, Stephen, Shep, Andre, Orbit, Mirwais, and Stuart were nobodies and certainly not seen good enough to work with this big superstar. I don't see what's different from them and an indie producer/artist today.

And Im new to this board but not a new Madonna fan and I know the LAV album isn't at the top of any fans list.

I think you have mis-interpreted what I was saying. Madonna has always stayed at the top of her game because she has changed her music and style, however she has always been a superstar and the Queen of Pop. Working with "unknown producers" does not make someone an Indie artist. The music she produced with them also had huge popular appeal. What I meant about people rubbishing her output in the 80's is simply that a lot of fans don't want to acknowledge her success or seem to look down on it. Similar to how people stuck in the past, have looked down on everything she has done since Ray of Light. I still think calling music "dated" is over-used.

[IDareUBambi]

I think the term indie doesn't mean being an underground act. I think it's a term today used for music that isn't manufactured at a record label meeting. Or it's more of a scene than being literal.

[Jazzy Jan]

I think the term indie doesn't mean being an underground act. I think it's a term today used for music that isn't manufactured at a record label meeting. Or it's more of a scene than being literal.

I understand now what you mean. I just have always thought indie was a word used for artists and music that did not appeal to many people and only a select niche. That had always been my interpretation of the word but if if has changed, now totally get where you are coming from.

[Kurt420]

Madonna may have been more experimental in the 90's, but her 80's output was fresh and had MASS (more than her 90's) appeal that has only ever been rivaled by Beatles, Elvis and Michael. Those are the songs that changed the course of popular music and the songs that to this day are her most revered, requested and played songs out of her entire catalog of music. I hate how dismissive her younger fans are of her 80's output. She was innovative and pushing pop music forward without even trying. I love her 90's input, but on some level, it was more conscious and not as effortless as her 80's output.....that's not a diss at all just simply an observation. It's true that maybe not many diehard fans would call LAV their favorite album but it's a go to album for the casual fans. It was always her top catalog seller as far as her studio albums go. The quintessential Madonna album for most casual fans is actually IC.

[loowee]

"indie" is such a vague term though so I have no idea what the discussion is about. Even in her "experimental" years she was still writing pop songs, so no, I can't see her going alternative at all. Madonna = pop melody + catchy hooks, no matter what the production is.

[rocknrolla]

I'm ready. That is when her career will really become interesting. And judging by some of her recent interviews, she is already preparing herself for it.

[Paul]

There is nothing different about M's music. Im mean obviously its changed and evolved but has always been of a kind that (should) have mass appeal. She just has this gift of recording songs that are catchy and relate to things that everyone knows about. Erotica and AL had lower success because of non-music related things going on at those times (sex and percieved anti-american).

So what's happened lately - I blame Guy O (Oh, not that bandwagon again), but I think its true that the way her music is marketed and controlled has not kept ahead of the way music is now consumed by people. If we all still bought records in record stores and found out about new songs when the video premiered on MTV, Madonna would still easily dominate. But people have access to more options now, including options to not even pay for music. Young people nobody need to buy popular artists' records to know about the songs others are talking about, because now they can talk about niche artists on the internet. And of course, music videos are no longer relevant (or at least not used to promote songs well).

They can't just keep relying on the "people will hear the songs because this is Madonna..". they need to work on new ways to get songs out there into people's ears. TV performances are OK but pretty limited exposure. Do a deal with some TV ad that will get the song heard on high rotation. Get a song in a blockbuster movie. Oh, and (for MDNA) make better decisions on singles.

So Madonna, doesnt need to go indie. SHe just needs to remind her manager that she is not indie and shouldnt be managed like she is.

[IDareUBambi]

I understand now what you mean. I just have always thought indie was a word used for artists and music that did not appeal to many people and only a select niche. That had always been my interpretation of the word but if if has changed, now totally get where you are coming from.

I think indie music is more popular today than pop music to be honest. I'm sure there are indie artists that outsold Mariah and J. Lo last year. I think with indie music though it's not about album sales, it's about live performances. I might not buy their album for 10 bucks but I'll pay 20 - 30 to see them perform and I think indie acts bank off of music licensing and touring. Radio is irrelevant as it should be. That's why I think Beyonce was a genius because she acted like an indie artist on a mainstream platform.

[mnino]

I understand now what you mean. I just have always thought indie was a word used for artists and music that did not appeal to many people and only a select niche. That had always been my interpretation of the word but if if has changed, now totally get where you are coming from.

I love that you understood exactly what I meant, Jazzy! Thanks!

[madonnasuperfan01]

Madonna may have been more experimental in the 90's, but her 80's output was fresh and had MASS (more than her 90's) appeal that has only ever been rivaled by Beatles, Elvis and Michael. Those are the songs that changed the course of popular music and the songs that to this day are her most revered, requested and played songs out of her entire catalog of music. I hate how dismissive her younger fans are of her 80's output. She was innovative and pushing pop music forward without even trying. I love her 90's input, but on some level, it was more conscious and not as effortless as her 80's output.....that's not a diss at all just simply an observation. It's true that maybe not many diehard fans would call LAV their favorite album but it's a go to album for the casual fans. It was always her top catalog seller as far as her studio albums go. The quintessential Madonna album for most casual fans is actually IC.

Well said :clap:

[Larkspur]

Madonna became like an indie artist to me maybe as early as Like A Prayer, kinda. There was a lot of superstar Madonna going on at that time but the direction she took in Like A Prayer impressed me so much. Coming off phenomenally successful True Blue, she didn't try to recreate it. Even though she was really up on a pedestal, she started to get criticized for her artistic choices and my own idea of indie was music and artists that a lot of people didn't "get." I liked that. She had something to say.

90's Madonna is when I really started to enjoy her as my "indie" artist. She was sooo criticized by the media and public in the early 90's but I treasured Erotica. It felt like no one knew about this amazing album but me and I loved that. I felt like that through the 90's. I loved other acts and bought singles and occasionally albums from the popular artists of the time but Madonna was like my own favorite artist that I "got" and she "got" what I wanted to hear and talk about. I really had no idea "how" successful she was until I joined the forums. That was in 2011. Because for most of her career that was my experience of her, no matter what goes on on the charts everything is as it always was.

[Stephen]

[PRDK]

I wonder how LAV would have sounded without the "dated" sound of Nile Rodgers in 1985 since he already had been all over the radio with MJ's Thriller album and David Bowie's Let's Dance. And "Like A Virgin" borrows heavily from Billie Jean.

Nile Rodgers had nothing to do with the Thriller album.

[VogueMusic]

Can you believe this thread?

[mnino]

Can you believe this thread?

Nile Rodgers had nothing to do with the Thriller album.

Oops, major mistake of mine. He produced Diana Ross instead... I may never live down this one!

[VogueMusic]

Actually, it's not you mnino...I thought your OP post was pretty interesting. It's some of the response after that got me like .