The Archbishop of Canterbury accuses fashion of hijacking the crucifix

[XXL]

“For those early Christians it was a badge of shame. Today it is more commonly seen as a symbol of beauty to hang around your neck. As a friend of mine used to say, you might as well hang a tiny golden gallows or an electric chair around your neck.”

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/29/justin-welby-fashion-crucifix-archbishop-canterbury

Justin Welby has got his wires crossed on fashion

The Archbishop of Canterbury accuses fashion of hijacking the crucifix, but he misses the point: today it belongs to everybody

If there is anyone out there who doesn't have enough to be shocked about, you can bet your John Galliano that the fashion industry will find some way to offend them within the next five minutes. That's what fashion thrives on: subversion and irreverence; an immaculately groomed, sneering Johnny Rotten worth millions, the world's best-dressed troll.

The latest person to express outrage at this industry's flagrant disregard for common decency is the archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, who writes in the foreword to his first Lent book that the crucifix has become a fashion statement, devoid of religious meaning. This from a man who regularly wears a dress made of gold.

To claim the cross as simply a Christian motif now is to exist in a vacuum. To express disappointment at the fact it has become just another bauble is to miss the point entirely, something the church has proved adept at for 2,000 years. When institutions insist on stasis, they become irrelevant. And when they do that in high dudgeon, they invite iconoclasm – something fashion has proved adept at for just as long.

[XXL]

People have worn crosses as decoration since Christ was taken down from his: just look at any Giotto frescoes or Renaissance dandy portraits. Devout, God-fearing people from a time when the cross meant everything – and when it was just as much of an ornament as it is now.

What Welby doesn't appear to realise is that the cross has more meaning now than it ever has done, thanks, in part, to its rehabilitation at the hands of what he calls "fashion", but what is actually just habit and custom. For many, the cross is a piece of jewellery you don't take off, rather than a trend. Before "fashion" made it ubiquitous, you mostly saw the cross on banners over the heads of knights sacking cities; before fashion, it was a symbol under which men and women were arbitrarily burned to death. We have evolved to wear crucifixes on necklaces without feeling the crushing weight of potential divine wrath and brimstone.

Now you see 14th-century-style devotional mosaics picked out in paillettes across a dress by Dolce & Gabbana, and Byzantine-style crosses inlaid on leather under the instructions of Donatella Versace. These mischievous Italian designers are working in the high Catholic mode, inspired by the opulence of the religion their country has grown up with. They weave religious imagery into their work, not to strip it of meaning but because it remains at the heart of their culture still. Not, perhaps, for its dogma, but for its iconography, its traditions, its teachings. And for its beauty.

[XXL]

The appropriation of the establishment into popular culture is nothing new. In the wake of the 60s and punk, we have no more hallowed icons to tiptoe around. It's a free-for-all. Look around and you'll see people walking about in T-shirts printed with CCCP or plastered with Che Guevara's face. Look further and you see people in faked approximations of designer logos – that they've been traduced doesn't detract from their meaning; it gives them a new story.

This is no bad thing. Once, people wore the cross for protection. Thankfully, we don't need to live by talismans and the evil eye any more: we have science. So our lingering affection for the cross is entirely symbolic. What Welby doesn't realise is that advertising execs would kill their firstborn to come up with something with such visual traction, something that needs no explanation and no translation.

The archbishop should reflect on the fact that religion must adapt to survive. We are a Christian culture, if not a Christian nation any more. That the cross no longer stands for exactly what it signified in the 13th century is logical. And it's a comfortable osmosis. I'd take trendy over tyranny any day.

[IsaacHarris]

Eh, times change, people can wear whatever they want. I've never been into crosses as accessories, mainly because I'm not a Christian, but also because they seem so trendy, faux-edgy, overdone. I do own one crucifix necklace (it belonged to my late-grandfather) & it actually has a little tiny sterling silver Jesus nailed to it; its kinda macabre

[BrokenButterfly]

I still don't get the weird seapunk/pastelpunk appropriation of the inverted cross and sugar skull thing.

[IsaacHarris]

I still don't get the weird seapunk/pastelpunk appropriation of the inverted cross and sugar skull thing.

Those involved in that scene don't get it themselves. Seapunk itself is a base-less aesthetic & a prime example of my generation's lack of identity/ desire to be edgy: its all trendy mess masquerading as counterculture. Plus, dat shit is ugly

[jacket]

BOO HOO

[VogueMusic]

Haha.... it' like another "cultural appropriation" argument.... here we go again...

[acko]

Seriously Fuck all Religious People.

I hope they cancel Religion in 2014.

I'm so over their shit.

[CJM]

Seriously Fuck all Religious People.

I hope they cancel Religion in 2014.

I'm so over their shit.

[mrsz]

He's right.

[Nonoka]

Seriously Fuck all Religious People.

I hope they cancel Religion in 2014.

I'm so over their shit.

Nah, that's going overboard, not all religious people are ignorant obsolete idiots.

[Guest]

Seriously Fuck all Religious People.

I hope they cancel Religion in 2014.

I'm so over their shit.

You mean like...Madonna? To be honest, I don't think there's much wrong in what he's saying. I don't necessarily agree either but it's up to him to have an opinion. It's not like he's suggesting cross wearers are means tested.

[Lucky guy]

A lot of fashion's use of the Cross is deliberately transgressive and disrespectful. Because fashion is part of mass media, and many of the power bases of mass media are fundamentally anti-Christian. Because they're run by people who are Satanists. I'm not saying that's the only reason it's used so frequently, there are a lot of others. But it is one.

[Guest]

Sorry but that ain't true. P.S the only pieces of jewellery I own are crosses...

[XXL]

http://www.vogue.co.uk/news/2013/11/29/archbishop-of-canterbury-criticises-fashion-for-devaluing-the-cross

[XXL]

Seriously Fuck all Religious People.

I hope they cancel Religion in 2014.

I'm so over their shit.

You mean like...Madonna? To be honest, I don't think there's much wrong in what he's saying. I don't necessarily agree either but it's up to him to have an opinion. It's not like he's suggesting cross wearers are means tested.

Cabala is not a religion

[Guest]

Cabala is not a religion

Madonna spent her early life Catholic.

She believes in God.

She prays.

She reads just about every holy book going.

She belongs to an organised faith that practises set values.

She's religious babe. :-)

[Guest]

I think people shouldn't worry about the fact that Madonna's religious. Not all religious people are horrid.

[XXL]

Some comments

Welby had promising credentials when he took the job, but it's obvious that his mouth gets into gear before his brain. Everything from payday loan companies, to credit unions, to women, you name it - he puts his foot in it.

Hope he is not on a management bonus scheme .....

I would not want to wear a cross but it is their freedom to wear what they like. Archbishop Welby should look in a mirror as I don't think there is need for all the robes and such that Christian leaders wear, that must be where all the church money goes along with their parties.

[XXL]

I think people shouldn't worry about the fact that Madonna's religious.

Not all religious people are horrid.

Nobody is worried that Madonna might be religious. And anyway as long as they don't want to impose their beliefs on others - Christianity of all religions anyway (live and let live) - I don't find religious people in general horrid at all (except for people who make a living off religions like Rev Welby)

She can't be classified as a religious person, she said it herself in interviews and through her work. Believing in God doesn't necessarily equate being religious at all. I was raised a Catholic too and I still believe in God but I am not religious in the least, I am spiritual

Spirituality and Religion are different things, God doesn't exist merely in the realm of Religion. Cabala is a form of spirituality or collected oral wisdom, it's as diametrically opposed to a religious conception of God and Man as you could possibly get. It's not about lithurgy or schemes

But let's stick to Rev Welby's opinions on the desecration of the cross

Whenever the Church comes out with these kind of statements it's because they are increasingly aware and fearful about the fact that we are living in an increasingly secularised world and they are afraid that if people forget for two seconds that life is about sin and punishment and pain they might lose the millenial privileges and stratospherical wealth they derived from it

[Guest]

It's all semantics. What some may consider religion others don't. Madonna only felt the need to clarify herself as non religious because of the negative connotations religion has today. She also had a very poignant and emphatic statement in a song 'this is my religion' which in itself is redefining religion rather than leaving it entirely. Madonna is religious.

[XXL]

It's all semantics. What some may consider religion others don't. Madonna only felt the need to clarify herself as non religious because of the negative connotations religion has today. She also had a very poignant and emphatic statement in a song 'this is my religion' which in itself is redefining religion rather than leaving it entirely. Madonna is religious.

Sorry I completely disagree

This is not about semantics at all. The definition of a religious person is universally that of someone who's following a religion, any religion. Now as you've said she's always believed in God and she still does, obviously. But she's into something which is absolutely de facto not a religion, hence you couldn't really consider her a religious person

Spiritual yes of course

[Guest]

Sorry I completely disagree

This is not about semantics at all. The definition of a religious person is universally that of someone who's following a religion, any religion. Now as you've said she's always believed in God and she still does, obviously. But she's into something which is absolutely de facto not a religion, hence you couldn't really consider her a religious person

Spiritual yes of course

Well that's silly. Effectively what you're saying is that the God's hate faggs people are religious and Madonna isn't? What about the church of Scientology followers? I hate to pull out the dictionary.com definition but look. Madonna certainly fits more than a bit of the criteria!

re·li·gious (r-ljs)

adj.

1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.

2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.

3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.

n. pl. religious

A member of a monastic order, especially a nun or monk.

[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin religisus, from religi, religion; see religion.]

re·ligious·ly adv.

re·ligious·ness n.

Synonyms: religious, devout, pious

These adjectives mean having or showing a belief in and veneration for God or a divine power, especially as it is reflected in the practice of religion. Religious implies adherence to religion in both belief and practice: The cathedral at Chartres is an expression of the religious fervor of the Middle Ages.

Devout connotes ardent faith and sincere devotion: Devout Muslims observe Ramadan punctiliously.

Pious stresses dutiful, reverential discharge of religious duties: a pious woman who attends Mass every morning.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

religious [rɪˈlɪdʒəs]

adj

1. of, relating to, or concerned with religion

2.

a. pious; devout; godly

b. (as collective noun; preceded by the) the religious

3. appropriate to or in accordance with the principles of a religion

4. scrupulous, exact, or conscientious

5. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity of or relating to a way of life dedicated to religion by the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, and defined by a monastic rule

n

(Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity a member of an order or congregation living by such a rule; a monk, friar, or nun

religiously adv

[XXL]

Well that's silly. Effectively what you're saying is that the God's hate faggs people are religious and Madonna isn't? What about the church of Scientology followers? I hate to pull out the dictionary.com definition but look. Madonna certainly fits more than a bit of the criteria!

re·li·gious (r-ljs)

adj.

1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.

2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.

3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.

n. pl. religious

A member of a monastic order, especially a nun or monk.

[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin religisus, from religi, religion; see religion.]

re·ligious·ly adv.

re·ligious·ness n.

Synonyms: religious, devout, pious

These adjectives mean having or showing a belief in and veneration for God or a divine power, especially as it is reflected in the practice of religion. Religious implies adherence to religion in both belief and practice: The cathedral at Chartres is an expression of the religious fervor of the Middle Ages.

Devout connotes ardent faith and sincere devotion: Devout Muslims observe Ramadan punctiliously.

Pious stresses dutiful, reverential discharge of religious duties: a pious woman who attends Mass every morning.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

religious [rɪˈlɪdʒəs]

adj

1. of, relating to, or concerned with religion

2.

a. pious; devout; godly

b. (as collective noun; preceded by the) the religious

3. appropriate to or in accordance with the principles of a religion

4. scrupulous, exact, or conscientious

5. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity of or relating to a way of life dedicated to religion by the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, and defined by a monastic rule

n

(Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity a member of an order or congregation living by such a rule; a monk, friar, or nun

religiously adv

Religious is related to the noun religion

Cabala or Kabbalah is not a religion, nothing else can be derived other than the fact that she isn't religious

She is spiritual

Spiritual and religious are not the same

What's the point of posting all those dictionary entries

[XXL]

Well that's silly. Effectively what you're saying is that the God's hate faggs people are religious and Madonna isn't?

[Guest]

1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.

2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.

3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.

n. pl. religious

A member of a monastic order, especially a nun or monk.

[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin religisus, from religi, religion; see religion.]

=

All things that Madmomma is/does.

1 - see: everything she ever did.

2 - see: lots of her work including most noticeably TBW and IGTTYAS.

3 - duh.

4 - see: 'if I wasn't what I am today I'd be a Nun'.

[XXL]

1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.

2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.

3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.

n. pl. religious

A member of a monastic order, especially a nun or monk.

[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin religisus, from religi, religion; see religion.]

=

All things that Madmomma is/does.

1 - see: everything she ever did.

2 - see: lots of her work including most noticeably TBW and IGTTYAS.

3 - duh.

4 - see: 'if I wasn't what I am today I'd be a Nun'.

We were talking about Rev Welby who's a religious leader = Head of a Religion. We were not discussing religious as in "extremely scrupulous" . I was merely underlining that she can't be considered religious because she doesn't follow a religion. Unless you think Cabala is a religion

You were commenting on Acko's post about how it would be better if religions didn't exist anymore, implicitly pointing out the irony of his post given the fact that Madonna is part of a religion. She doesn't adhere to any religion. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism. She might have studied all of those texts and have an interest in reading the Quran for instance but that doesn't automatically mean being religious

Being religious means adhering to a religion in particular and that one only and following its practices. She was baptized and raised a Catholic and had her kids baptized but in all her adult life she was never a practicising Catholic, but a practicing believer in the power of prayer. Different things.

As I was saying she's always been more spiritual and has spoken about the dogmatic bindings of the religious experience countless times

[Guest]

If Religion didn't exist Judaism wouldn't exist. If Judaism didn't exist then Kabbalah wouldn't exist. Can you deny that? :-p Madonna is religious!!! Being religious doesn't mean you follow dogmatic nonsense. Lots of religious people question things and challenge regularity. I think Madonna's issue was that religion seemed very CLOSED MINDED. She's now found a more universal and all encompassing religion but really what's the difference?

Catholic goes to church.

Madonna goes to Kabbalah centre.

Catholic prays to God.

Madonna prays to God.

Catholic teaches people the catholic way.

Madonna teaches people how to understand the light.

Catholic people have ceremonies with religious garb.

People go to the Kabbalah centre wearing white on specific days.

Catholic school teaches morals and understanding.

Kabbalah teaches morals and understanding.

Really, what's the difference? The difference is that one suits Madonna more! There are plenty of Catholics out there who are loving, free minded, wild spirited, passionate and giving people! Not every catholic is stuck in a medieval mindset.

[XXL]

If Religion didn't exist Judaism wouldn't exist. If Judaism didn't exist then Kabbalah wouldn't exist

Cabala or Kabbalah pre-dates Judaism

Cabala is not about Judaism nor coincides with it

As much as it isn't about Christianity

I think that's part of your preconceived notion of what Cabala actually is

Cabala is not a religion therefore by following it Madonna cannot be considered a follower of a religion

Or religious person