The Archbishop of Canterbury accuses fashion of hijacking the crucifix

[Guest SecretGarden]

I do see what you mean though.

It is rather comical this faux rebellion thing.

'Oooh look at me. I'm all non religious and cool and I hate all religion because it's evil and not cool and liberal like science!'

Yeah, okay then. You carry on with that.

Quite true, it seems in some circles religion has become a scapegoat while science is heralded as the be all and end all. I value both, extensively, and believe both can be used for the betterment of the world, or potentially, for the destruction of it.

In America...

There is some truth to this too, really discrimination can happen to any group and it does but if anyone is being 'oppressed' in the USA then it seems to be Atheists and Muslims.

[jacket]

The GU vs XXL argument is amusingly circular because one is giving his personal view of what religion is (XXL) and the other is pointing out the variable meanings of the word religion even in the dictionary (GU). So it's less a debate, more both stating different things both of which are true. Yes XXL that is your opinion of the word and yes GU those are the dictionary definitions of the word.

People tend to talk pass each other when it comes to religion.

The main point to remember is that bad ideas and bad books should always be open to criticism, no matter how strongly someone might regard them. That's what living in a liberal democracy is all about - your right to be wrong and for me to cause offense.

Anyway, you don't hear the pagans losing their shit over how Christianity co-opted and bastardised their tales, rituals and iconography.

[Skin]

Quite true, it seems in some circles religion has become a scapegoat while science is heralded as the be all and end all. I value both, extensively, and believe both can be used for the betterment of the world, or potentially, for the destruction of it.

There is some truth to this too, really discrimination can happen to any group and it does but if anyone is being 'oppressed' in the USA then it seems to be Atheists and Muslims.

I am an atheist. I don't feel oppressed. (Well sometimes I feel people judge me harshly because of it or look at me as if they are thinking "HOW COULD YOU!?") I just feel like we outnumber so many other groups that have a voice in the debate and we are not even allowed a place at the table.

Like I have said before I would be interested to know if there was one member of Congress that is openly atheist. I doubt there is one. And if there is, its probably only one.

Right now I have this one the back of my car..

I always switch it up with political shit because yes I am a loud mouth that likes to voice my opinion even if its with a silly bumper sticker. But out of all the political stickers I have had over the years this is the first one where I truly thought to myself, "Damn I hope I don't get driven off the road or have my windows bashed in for it." That should kind of say something right there.

Last week though as I was leaving work this old lady comes and knocks on my window and the first thing I think is "Fuck did she hit my car and is telling me about it?" because that's what happened the last time a dude came and knocked on my window, but when I rolled it down she said, "Where did you get that bumper sticker? I LOVE it!" I was in shock to say the least. We talked for about a minuet and it got me thinking that maybe there are more people that are "in the closet" so to speak when it comes to their non belief. They are just afraid to come out or speak about it, and if a silly bumper sticker can make people fell that YES there is someone else out there like you that doesn't believe in what I consider to be nonsense more power to that.

And my goal is not to one day see religion eradicated. People are free to believe in whatever they want. I just want the other side heard from more and actually be part of the debate.

In other countries maybe being atheist is the norm, and they are part of the political debate, so what I am talking about might seem alien as hell, but that's not the way it is in the USofA.

[Seraphim]

I can't find it on YouTube right now, but I remember during the AL period Madonna was about to perform Xstatic Process when one of the audience members shouted 'religion is love!,' to which Madonna basically said that religion is not love because it separates people. So I don't think she identifies as religious.

[Guest SecretGarden]

I am an atheist. I don't feel oppressed. (Well sometimes I feel people judge me harshly because of it or look at me as if they are thinking "HOW COULD YOU!?") I just feel like we outnumber so many other groups that have a voice in the debate and we are not even allowed a place at the table.

Like I have said before I would be interested to know if there was one member of Congress that is openly atheist. I doubt there is one. And if there is, its probably only one.

Right now I have this one the back of my car..

I always switch it up with political shit because yes I am a loud mouth that likes to voice my opinion even if its with a silly bumper sticker. But out of all the political stickers I have had over the years this is the first one where I truly thought to myself, "Damn I hope I don't get driven off the road or have my windows bashed in for it." That should kind of say something right there.

Last week though as I was leaving work this old lady comes and knocks on my window and the first thing I think is "Fuck did she hit my car and is telling me about it?" because that's what happened the last time a dude came and knocked on my window, but when I rolled it down she said, "Where did you get that bumper sticker? I LOVE it!" I was in shock to say the least. We talked for about a minuet and it got me thinking that maybe there are more people that are "in the closet" so to speak when it comes to their non belief. They are just afraid to come out or speak about it, and if a silly bumper sticker can make people fell that YES there is someone else out there like you that doesn't believe in what I consider to be nonsense more power to that.

And my goal is not to one day see religion eradicated. People are free to believe in whatever they want. I just want the other side heard from more and actually be part of the debate.

In other countries maybe being atheist is the norm, and they are part of the political debate, so what I am talking about might seem alien as hell, but that's not the way it is in the USofA.

In most countries I would say that being religious is the norm, really only in certain parts of Europe and Japan has atheism become the default position. Most other places seem to be defined by religion in one way or another.

Oh and by oppression, I wasn't alluding to hate crimes, or forcing to say in the 'religious closet' (which I'm sure happens) but more so government representation, tolerance within the education systems and so on. Again this leads back to the Christian right wing who scream the loudest when atheism is brought up in school systems, or if their children are taught anything about other cultures (specifically Islam). This has lead to some schools adopting anti-scientific views i.e. denying evolution, and frankly bigoted views. It isn't so much oppression, but fear mongering.

Personally, I just want to see a more tolerant world, every ideal, as long as it isn't breaking the law, should be tolerated but what I can't stand is coercion and proselytizing, and fear mongering, which the right wing is so very good at.

[VogueMusic]

While I agree with you that Christianity as a whole is being portrayed in a negative light in the entertainment world, I do contend your point about Christianity leading this trend of religious intolerance. These things happen in cycles, native Indians, Jews and other groups were once hugely unfairly maligned in the media, especially entertainment, for quite some time, and if any group is leading the trend today then it has to be Arab Muslims.

Which leads me to my next point, we can't excuse the bigotry that comes out of the Christian world and it's media, Pat Robertson may be American but there are countless groups who think like he does; who claim to be Christian organizations and who show overwhelming support for groups who have anti-immigration, anti-Muslim, anti-Atheist and anti-abortion views. The stuff said about Muslims by the right wing, on television and the internet, is disgusting. I, personally, have my own issues with modern Islam (as I do with most religions) and am very critical of the way it's being practiced by many Muslims today but bigotry is wrong, and we can't deny that a lot of it is coming from the Christian right wing world.

I do concede that my point about news media being more influential than entertainment was a weak one, your example of of Himmler is spot on, but not all portrayals are bad, when understood in the right context. I've read that quite a few people on the internet thought that Madonna's use of Christian symbols during her MDNA tour was offensive and insulting to Christianity, but really it was the opposite; her tour was a celebration of religion, faith and redemption. I feel some Christians jump the gun a little too soon when it comes to imagery like that.

I will reiterate that the negative portrayals of Christianity in the entertainment industry seem to have more to do with fighting the right wing and the Church than insulting Christianity as an actual religion. When it comes down to it, the UK, Australia, USA and even places like Japan (with it's growing nationalist parties) are more conservative and more right wing than they are liberal and progressive, laws take too long to change, police are given more power, the separation of church and state is becoming more blurred and the support of war by the media is overwhelming - an example would be Syria and how almost all major media outlets in the USA supported military strike while almost all of the people didn't, these are right wing (sometimes rooted in the Church) ideals.

In most countries I would say that being religious is the norm, really only in certain parts of Europe and Japan has atheism become the default position. Most other places seem to be defined by religion in one way or another.

Oh and by oppression, I wasn't alluding to hate crimes, or forcing to say in the 'religious closet' (which I'm sure happens) but more so government representation, tolerance within the education systems and so on. Again this leads back to the Christian right wing who scream the loudest when atheism is brought up in school systems, or if their children are taught anything about other cultures (specifically Islam). This has lead to some schools adopting anti-scientific views i.e. denying evolution, and frankly bigoted views. It isn't so much oppression, but fear mongering.

Personally, I just want to see a more tolerant world, every ideal, as long as it isn't breaking the law, should be tolerated but what I can't stand is coercion and proselytizing, and fear mongering, which the right wing is so very good at:

:clap:

[VogueMusic]

In America...

All this talk about fairytales and made up nonsense.

Cant we discuss the world of Harry Potter instead? It is far more interesting and entertaining.

The Bible doesn't have Quidditch in it does it? No. Your faves could never.

I am an atheist. I don't feel oppressed. (Well sometimes I feel people judge me harshly because of it or look at me as if they are thinking "HOW COULD YOU!?") I just feel like we outnumber so many other groups that have a voice in the debate and we are not even allowed a place at the table.

Like I have said before I would be interested to know if there was one member of Congress that is openly atheist. I doubt there is one. And if there is, its probably only one.

Right now I have this one the back of my car..

I always switch it up with political shit because yes I am a loud mouth that likes to voice my opinion even if its with a silly bumper sticker. But out of all the political stickers I have had over the years this is the first one where I truly thought to myself, "Damn I hope I don't get driven off the road or have my windows bashed in for it." That should kind of say something right there.

Last week though as I was leaving work this old lady comes and knocks on my window and the first thing I think is "Fuck did she hit my car and is telling me about it?" because that's what happened the last time a dude came and knocked on my window, but when I rolled it down she said, "Where did you get that bumper sticker? I LOVE it!" I was in shock to say the least. We talked for about a minuet and it got me thinking that maybe there are more people that are "in the closet" so to speak when it comes to their non belief. They are just afraid to come out or speak about it, and if a silly bumper sticker can make people fell that YES there is someone else out there like you that doesn't believe in what I consider to be nonsense more power to that.

And my goal is not to one day see religion eradicated. People are free to believe in whatever they want. I just want the other side heard from more and actually be part of the debate.

In other countries maybe being atheist is the norm, and they are part of the political debate, so what I am talking about might seem alien as hell, but that's not the way it is in the USofA.

[VogueMusic]

You have (and should have) the right to believe whatever you like. Once you express that...others have (and should have) the right to question, analyze, deconstruct, and challenge it based on logic, reason, and evidence... and yes, even mock and ridicule it (comedy).

That's freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and most importantly, freedom of thought.

[Guest SecretGarden]

You have (and should have) the right to believe whatever you like. Once you express that...others have (and should have) the right to question, analyze, deconstruct, and challenge it based on logic, reason, and evidence... and yes, even mock and ridicule it (comedy).

That's freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and most importantly, freedom of thought.

Completely agreed.

The only exception I would make is when people start inciting violence and hatred of a particular group because of their beliefs, but I don't feel that is happening to Christians in any major way, let alone by some elitist occult satanic group.

[VogueMusic]

When someone, or some group, is using religion as a weapon against others - to oppress them, strip them of their rights, place themselves on a more righteous platform while people different than them are "sinners" or "broken" or "less than" - than we all should have a fundamental right to non-violently stand up against that.

[billiejean]

Well, calling out cultural appropriation is the popular thing to do online so it's only fair I guess.

[Guest]

I believe in exploring your freedom as much as possible unless it impedes another persons freedom. So, why the same people need to make the same sweeping statements about religious people over and over I don't know. It's really a pointless action especially as I mentioned I could name some really evil people from human history who are athetistic. When Madonna was talking about religion in response to the comment 'religion is love' she was really talking about DOGMATIC organised religion. I'm sure Madonna would express the same opinion of ANY oppressive regime regardless of what it is. If somebody would have shouted 'President Mugabe is love' or 'Russian Politics is love' she would have said the same thing. I mean, it's like the difference between saying 'Technological development by way of scientific exploration is love' and 'Nuclear weaponry is love'. Like, use your common sense. Don't mean to be a bitch but one person in this thread has some really EMBARRASSING opinions.

[Starman]

this is great, i want a t-shirt lol

[Lucky guy]

Quite true, it seems in some circles religion has become a scapegoat while science is heralded as the be all and end all. I value both, extensively, and believe both can be used for the betterment of the world, or potentially, for the destruction of it.

There is some truth to this too, really discrimination can happen to any group and it does but if anyone is being 'oppressed' in the USA then it seems to be Atheists and Muslims.

Firstly, I would question the statistical validity of that pie chart. Over 3 quarters of the US population Christians? Even if it is true, it doesn't take into account those who have power and those who don't. Adding that into the equation would prove very interesting.

[Lucky guy]

Look at this thread since the Hatetheist tendency marched in -mess!

That screenshot of Fox News for example -I'm sure Fox News is terrible, but it's completely obvious that that 'terrorist next door' caption has been badly photoshopped on?

Skin's bumper sticker and the fact that he expects people to smash his car up (but no-one ever has) says something? Yes, it says something about you Skin, not anyone else.

[Lucky guy]

When someone, or some group, is using religion as a weapon against others - to oppress them, strip them of their rights, place themselves on a more righteous platform while people different than them are "sinners" or "broken" or "less than" - than we all should have a fundamental right to non-violently stand up against that.

What 'fundamental right'? What 'should'? There is no moral framework in the absence of a higher power. There is nothing except the survival of the species.

[Guest]

Look at this thread since the Hatetheist tendency marched in -mess!

That screenshot of Fox News for example -I'm sure Fox News is terrible, but it's completely obvious that that 'terrorist next door' caption has been badly photoshopped on?

Skin's bumper sticker and the fact that he expects people to smash his car up (but no-one ever has) says something? Yes, it says something about you Skin, not anyone else.

That sounds almost a bit attention seeking to me. 'Oooh I'm so liberal, please bash me!'

[Guest]

What 'fundamental right'? What 'should'? There is no moral framework in the absence of a higher power. There is nothing except the survival of the species.

Yup.

[Skin]

Don't mean to be a bitch but one person in this thread has some really EMBARRASSING opinions.

I am guessing this is toward me? (Of course you will say its not)

Don't you have some ugly ass shoes to go and buy?

[Skin]

That sounds almost a bit attention seeking to me. 'Oooh I'm so liberal, please bash me!'

You calling someone else attention seeking? That's a good one.

You are the Lady Gaga of this forum. You keep throwing yourself out there but no one cares.

[Guest SecretGarden]

What 'fundamental right'? What 'should'? There is no moral framework in the absence of a higher power. There is nothing except the survival of the species.

That's quite a false dichotomy, even naturalists who think morality is just an illusion fostered by evolution recognise the fact that morality is an inbuilt feature of humans. I agree with the idea of objective morality but it has very little to do with religion, which is just an example of people attempting to recognise truths that are already within themselves.

[Skin]

What 'fundamental right'? What 'should'? There is no moral framework in the absence of a higher power. There is nothing except the survival of the species.

One of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

What are you trying to say? That without a belief in a higher power we would all be killing ourselves and the world would be in utter chaos? You are contradicting yourself. If that were the case I would hardly call that world you think would exist as a place where "survival of the species" was key to humanity.

Most people on this planet now are religious in some form or another and its a freakin mess. Maybe we should start focusing more on the actual survival of our species instead of fairy tale bullshit.

[Guest]

That's quite a false dichotomy, even naturalists who think morality is just an illusion fostered by evolution recognise the fact that morality is an inbuilt feature of humans. I agree with the idea of objective morality but it has very little to do with religion, which is just an example of people attempting to recognise truths that are already within themselves.

Morality is not always a shared truth though. Nature actually sometimes goes against morality. One example being that men want to fuck every woman they can. Morality tells them not to. Also, the killer instinct that we have spent a long time suppressing still shows it's effects in some very ugly circumstances.

[Lucky guy]

That's quite a false dichotomy, even naturalists who think morality is just an illusion fostered by evolution recognise the fact that morality is an inbuilt feature of humans. I agree with the idea of objective morality but it has very little to do with religion, which is just an example of people attempting to recognise truths that are already within themselves.

The capacity to develop a moral framework may be 'inbuilt' (in-evolved surely -doesn't 'inbuilt' suggest creation? ), but there is no responsibility to follow it. Hitler or Mother Theresa, it doesn't matter. Even people like Richard Dawkins have acknowledged this simple fact.

Your assessment of religion is your own opinion, and can never be more than that.

[Lucky guy]

One of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

What are you trying to say? That without a belief in a higher power we would all be killing ourselves and the world would be in utter chaos? You are contradicting yourself. If that were the case I would hardly call that world you think would exist as a place where "survival of the species" was key to humanity.

Most people on this planet now are religious in some form or another and its a freakin mess. Maybe we should start focusing more on the actual survival of our species instead of fairy tale bullshit.

It's actually not a difficult concept to understand; I'll give it time to sink in.

The problem with the world is not people being 'religious' -unless you count a small and psychopathic minority at the top of your country and its close allies, who subscribe to a particularly ugly form of 'religion'. If you had any knowledge of the world beyond your own backyard you would wouldn't be taken in by this simplistic meme. Take a country like Syria, a moderate Arab republic with Christians, Sunni Muslims, and Shia Muslims all living happily with each other. Till America, Saudi Arabia and Israel decide to destabilise the country over a period of decades with terror cells following a particularly perverted doctrine of Saudi Arabian Wahhabist Islam. Pour oil on the fire and 'Bingo!' you have a 'religious' 'sectarian' conflict.

Let's be honest, isn't the real reason we dislike Christianity that it preaches, or appears to preach, against gay lifestyles? We should perhaps just acknowledge that and wrestle with that problem (I certainly don't have an answer). At the moment I see gay people railroaded into hating Christians and vice versa -the gay marriage thing being a recent example. Christians need to see that gay people are just people, and gay people need to see that Christians are just people -not perceive each other as 'the enemy'. That would be a start.

[Guest]

It's funny because I assume we've had very different upbringings and I'm sure I'm nowhere near as erm...hyper suspicious as you are and yet our beliefs on this one thing are quite similar. It's also worth noting that religion or no religion it's an almost inevitable and quite reasonable action to believe in God. Many great philosophers who considered themselves atheist convinced themselves in the existence of God. Separating God and social politics/morality is something that some people just need to learn to do. Luckily my vision of God is not a man sat upon a cloud, stroking his beard and making moral judgements of the minute details in our lives.

'You bought a really immature and non funny car sticker! Go to hell, traitor!!!'

[Skin]

It's actually not a difficult concept to understand; I'll give it time to sink in.

The problem with the world is not people being 'religious' -unless you count a small and psychopathic minority at the top of your country and its close allies, who subscribe to a particularly ugly form of 'religion'. If you had any knowledge of the world beyond your own backyard you would wouldn't be taken in by this simplistic meme. Take a country like Syria, a moderate Arab republic with Christians, Sunni Muslims, and Shia Muslims all living happily with each other. Till America, Saudi Arabia and Israel decide to destabilise the country over a period of decades with terror cells following a particularly perverted doctrine of Saudi Arabian Wahhabist Islam. Pour oil on the fire and 'Bingo!' you have a 'religious' 'sectarian' conflict.

Let's be honest, isn't the real reason we dislike Christianity that it preaches, or appears to preach, against gay lifestyles? We should perhaps just acknowledge that and wrestle with that problem (I certainly don't have an answer). At the moment I see gay people railroaded into hating Christians and vice versa -the gay marriage thing being a recent example. Christians need to see that gay people are just people, and gay people need to see that Christians are just people -not perceive each other as 'the enemy'. That would be a start.

I don't see Christians as the enemy . My whole family is Christian. I just think religion along with every other one at its core is made up nonsense. I am not saying there cant be positive aspects of religion, but again I think its all nonsense.

For crying out loud I used to be a really hardcore Christian back in the day. Its embarrassing reading reports I wrote back in high school that I still have as I drone on about Jesus and what is right and wrong. I feel sorry as hell for that ignorant ass moron that I was.

[Guest]

It's actually not a difficult concept to understand; I'll give it time to sink in.

The problem with the world is not people being 'religious' -unless you count a small and psychopathic minority at the top of your country and its close allies, who subscribe to a particularly ugly form of 'religion'. If you had any knowledge of the world beyond your own backyard you would wouldn't be taken in by this simplistic meme. Take a country like Syria, a moderate Arab republic with Christians, Sunni Muslims, and Shia Muslims all living happily with each other. Till America, Saudi Arabia and Israel decide to destabilise the country over a period of decades with terror cells following a particularly perverted doctrine of Saudi Arabian Wahhabist Islam. Pour oil on the fire and 'Bingo!' you have a 'religious' 'sectarian' conflict.

Let's be honest, isn't the real reason we dislike Christianity that it preaches, or appears to preach, against gay lifestyles? We should perhaps just acknowledge that and wrestle with that problem (I certainly don't have an answer). At the moment I see gay people railroaded into hating Christians and vice versa -the gay marriage thing being a recent example. Christians need to see that gay people are just people, and gay people need to see that Christians are just people -not perceive each other as 'the enemy'. That would be a start.

Some things I wanna point out.

1) The majority of the world is NOT religiously devoted.

2) Not all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. I know Christian churches which have married two women, others which have prominent members who are homosexual and so on. Homosexuality does not even enter into question for Christians I know. To be honest, they don't care which gender I sleep with. Crazy people are crazy no matter their religion or lack thereof. Closed minded people are closed minded regardless or their religion or lack thereof. I would have thought this concept is a simple one to grasp. To be honest, I'm not one of those people that enjoys self victimisation. Therefore if a group rallied against my lifestyle I would fight that group by continuing to be successful, happy and giving as a person.

[Guest]

Excerpt from 'The sermon on the mount' - Emmet Fox.

No Scientific Christian ever considers hatred or execration to be “justifiable” in any circumstances, but whatever your opinion about that might be, there is no question about its practical consequences to you. You might as well swallow a dose of Prussic acid in two gulps, and think to protect yourself by saying, “This one is for Robespierre; and this one for the Bristol murderer” [who had previously been cited as objects of hatred]. You will hardly have any doubt as to who will receive the benefit of the poison.”

[Lucky guy]

I don't see Christians as the enemy . My whole family is Christian. I just think religion along with every other one at its core is made up nonsense. I am not saying there cant be positive aspects of religion, but again I think its all nonsense.

For crying out loud I used to be a really hardcore Christian back in the day. Its embarrassing reading reports I wrote back in high school that I still have as I drone on about Jesus and what is right and wrong. I feel sorry as hell for that ignorant ass moron that I was.

And clearly you still have issues and conflicts related to your experience of faith (as do I, and many others I suspect). But wanting it all to go away and for no-one to believe so it can be forgotten is hardly the answer.

Belief in a higher power is not a silly idea and it never has been. What is a silly idea is that we, with our level of science, can be convinced there is no God. 200 years ago we were convinced there were no cells and molecules and atoms. Who knows what we will know in another 200? Who knows what planes exist beyond our currently scientifically measurable sight -which will seem as pathetic as the flat earth theory in the future?