Madonna dedicates "Masterpiece" to Gaga. The ultimate diss? Discuss!

[peter]

UGH.

Honestly, I'm sitting here telling myself not to even chime in, but I can't help it.

Gaga APPEARS as if she's taking the high road, ketchup, but the fact is, she lets her "monsters" and "creatives" do her dirty work. Like her choreographer (former, I suppose) and the co-producer or co-writer of BTW DJ White Shadow or whatever his name was. And then Elton, of course. They were pretty vicious to Madonna.

And even if Madonna has said some things with a wink (like "reductive" and "imitation = flattery"), the majority of what M has said has been positive. The recent, "It's a good song, I'm glad I helped her write it..." etc. When EVERY media person keeps asking M about it, she replies. And Madonna has been talking about loving people and forgiving people, and she says she loves and forgives Gaga, so ... how is she not being mature? If she was calling Gaga names every night and being negative about her, I could see your point. But the worst she says is "She's not me." A self-evident statement because M is not LG and LG is not M. But apparently, the media and the public maybe needed the reminder? Because so many wanted to anoint LG the QoP. OH WELL.

Whatever. This argument is silly. And yeah, if we're going to call out celebrity bullying, it's getting a little ridiculous. Madonna is certainly not a bully.

[ketchup]

But she didn't do it right, she came out and made thinly veiled digs and whined about it instead of having a backbone and saying "whatever". Or better yet, saying nothing. So no high road was taken at all - in fact, NO ROAD was taken, becuase she'd rather pussyfoot.

There is no campaign against Gaga, you're creating this all in your head because you love both of these women; what it is is a publicity stunt which Madonna practically invented, and it's there to make you think there's a feud. In fact I wonder if both of them are in on it since they share so many of the same posse and are even on THE SAME RECORD LABEL.

I can't fault you for buying into it though, because look how much this very forum has bought into it, even myself.

You raise a good point.

And honestly... my peace-loving hippyness aside, if anyone has the right to hold some wannabe-bitch's feet to the fire it's Madonna. So I'll say that.

Gaga's at fault too, I'll admit that as well. I just wanna see everybody getting along -_-

[Supernatural]

Oh, and I want you to clarify this - how are personal, ugly insults at Madonna somehow easy to dismiss and yet you take Madonna's completely non personal remarks and jabs against Gaga to be actual bullying?

Bullying is a vicious insulting, ridiculing or threatening act against another person. There's no real gray area with that word. Either someone is being bullied or they're not. If Gaga thinks she's being bullied then wow, is all I have to say. Perhaps a sense of humor and some growing up is in order (hey the road goes both ways doesn't it?)But I sincerely doubt that's the case, or at least I hope so. Perhaps you shouldn't speak for her and make her sound like a cowering little daisy - not sure she would like that very much!

yeah Ive never heard an adult say they were being bullied. Maybe I know too many people with backbones.

[Ai Papi Si.]

You raise a good point.

And honestly... my peace-loving hippyness aside, if anyone has the right to hold some wannabe-bitch's feet to the fire it's Madonna. So I'll say that.

Gaga's at fault too, I'll admit that as well. I just wanna see everybody getting along -_-

Oh yeah, I'm sick of it too, and even though I see nothing really WRONG with what Madonna said, I kinda wish the whole thing would end now. And I still kinda believe that this will wash over and become yesterday's news if it all culminates in a performance together - though let's face it, it'd be pretty corny.

[ketchup]

Oh, and I want you to clarify this - how are personal, ugly insults at Madonna somehow easy to dismiss and yet you take Madonna's completely non personal remarks and jabs against Gaga to be actual bullying?

Bullying is a vicious insulting, ridiculing or threatening act against another person. There's no real gray area with that word. Either someone is being bullied or they're not. If Gaga thinks she's being bullied then wow, is all I have to say. Perhaps a sense of humor and some growing up is in order (hey the road goes both ways doesn't it?)But I sincerely doubt that's the case, or at least I hope so. Perhaps you shouldn't speak for her and make her sound like a cowering little daisy - not sure she would like that very much!

I merely called Madonna a hypocrite, calm your tits. I don't know how Gaga feels and never claimed as such. Calling Madonna an old stripper is not vicious, it's funny. Madonna puts herself in that position. Most of the world sees her desperate to stay relevant. But Madonna is strong she can take it riiiiiiight? You acknlowedged it has been made to be percieved as a campaign, so again I don't see where the fuzziness comes in when looking at off hand remarks vs making an insult a part of your nightly tour and talking shit on top of that.

[ketchup]

yeah Ive never heard an adult say they were being bullied. Maybe I know too many people with backbones.

You're right bullying only happens on the playground

[Ai Papi Si.]

I merely called Madonna a hypocrite, calm your tits. I don't know how Gaga feels and never claimed as such. Calling Madonna an old stripper is not vicious, it's funny. Madonna puts herself in that position. Most of the world sees her desperate to stay relevant. But Madonna is strong she can take it riiiiiiight? You acknlowedged it has been made to be percieved as a campaign, so again I don't see where the fuzziness comes in when looking at off hand remarks vs making an insult a part of your nightly tour and talking shit on top of that.

Did you see the video of Elton speaking about Madonna? It was bad. I don't think he was trying to be funny at all. Of course, no one really stepped up to Madonna's defense becuz what would be the point in that, right?

The Born This Way mashup being a part of what is a very theatrical and MADONNA-esque tour makes all the sense in the world; no grown woman like Madonna puts a mashup in her show to be VICIOUS and ATTACK someone, I mean man, Madonna has kids now, I think she ha sa few more things to think about than that. She was just having her gay diva icon moment and the world took it and ran with it. It's not that deep. But hey you know.

[peter]

If "old stripper" (inaccurate, mean name-calling) is not an insult, then "she's not me" (an objectively true factual statement) is not an insult either. No one but Madonna is Madonna. So ... where's the bullying?

[ketchup]

UGH.

Honestly, I'm sitting here telling myself not to even chime in, but I can't help it.

Gaga APPEARS as if she's taking the high road, ketchup, but the fact is, she lets her "monsters" and "creatives" do her dirty work. Like her choreographer (former, I suppose) and the co-producer or co-writer of BTW DJ White Shadow or whatever his name was. And then Elton, of course. They were pretty vicious to Madonna.

And even if Madonna has said some things with a wink (like "reductive" and "imitation = flattery"), the majority of what M has said has been positive. The recent, "It's a good song, I'm glad I helped her write it..." etc. When EVERY media person keeps asking M about it, she replies. And Madonna has been talking about loving people and forgiving people, and she says she loves and forgives Gaga, so ... how is she not being mature? If she was calling Gaga names every night and being negative about her, I could see your point. But the worst she says is "She's not me." A self-evident statement because M is not LG and LG is not M. But apparently, the media and the public maybe needed the reminder? Because so many wanted to anoint LG the QoP. OH WELL.

Whatever. This argument is silly. And yeah, if we're going to call out celebrity bullying, it's getting a little ridiculous. Madonna is certainly not a bully.

How is she not a bully? Anything she does say is undercut but something negative. I don't think Gaga's losing any sleep, or maybe she is, but when I look at Madonna this grown as woman, who wants to position herself as a cultural leader like Gandhi and John Lennon, and she's bringing herself down to this level, for a kii? She can do better and she should feel a responsibility to do so.

[Ai Papi Si.]

If "old stripper" (inaccurate, mean name-calling) is not an insult, then "she's not me" (an objectively true factual statement) is not an insult either. No one but Madonna is Madonna. So ... where's the bullying?

He called her a fairground stripper which basically means... an old and ugly stripper. Oh, and he called her a cunt, a nightmare, and said her career was over, and that her tour was a disaster.

Hey, no big deal though.

But Ketchup's right... Madonna took it in stride, whereas everyone's acting like Madonna gave Gaga similar treatment and she didn't.

[Supernatural]

If "old stripper" (inaccurate, mean name-calling) is not an insult, then "she's not me" (an objectively true factual statement) is not an insult either. No one but Madonna is Madonna. So ... where's the bullying?

the bottom line is gaga can't even be questioned or compared, because she is an obvious scam.

[Ai Papi Si.]

How is she not a bully? Anything she does say is undercut but something negative. I don't think Gaga's losing any sleep, or maybe she is, but when I look at Madonna this grown as woman, who wants to position herself as a cultural leader like Gandhi and John Lennon, and she's bringing herself down to this level, for a kii? She can do better and she should feel a responsibility to do so.

But that's not what she wants - she wants it all, she wants to continue being a pop culture staple while still being a demi goddess like Lennon, and this year is proof of that - her amazing, brave stints in Russia which could've gotten her thrown in jail, her inspiring tour, combined with the spectacle she has caused this year with a million different things. It's been an amazing year for her for sure.

[ketchup]

He called her a fairground stripper which basically means... an old and ugly stripper. Oh, and he called her a cunt, a nightmare, and said her career was over, and that her tour was a disaster.

Hey, no big deal though.

But Ketchup's right... Madonna took it in stride, whereas everyone's acting like Madonna gave Gaga similar treatment and she didn't.

I'm sorry but I think that's hilarious And it's different. Madonna and Elton John are on the same level. Musical legends who go tit for tat with each other. Whereas I see Madonna as former "mentor" inspiration etc being pretty awful to Gaga. That's the distinction I make. We can go in circles talking about what's worse but to me, that's the distinction. Madonna is a 54 year old pop legend picking on a 25 year old girl who is at the beginning of her career.

[Jazzy Jan]

Actually it's a totally sanctimonious whiny 11 minute speech which totally attempts to absolve her of responsibility. But you know, those are the kinds of people she appeals to. The impressionable, the neutered, etc. I'd have more respect for her if she just didn't respond at all, and up until then, she didn't. But she had to go and open her big mouth and cry about it

Oh and yes Gaga loves the role of victim - that's how she got her Mother Monster reputation and fans that followed, where have you been?

So true. Personally, I think if calling someone's song reductive and saying imitation is the highest form of flattery while also saying you love them, is considered bullying, then we have all become a lot of weak idiots. How can that be called bullying ? Seriously, have these people that call this bullying ever be bullied ? I think all this nonsense and over-exaggeration of Lady Gaga being bullied by Madonna, does so much harm to the serious issue of people being bullied for real. People will read this and soon become sick to death of hearing about bullying and all of a sudden being bullied for real is not a big thing. Do others see this as well ? Elton John said far worse about Madonna yet got off bloody scott-free because stupid people just thought he was defending Lady Gaga. It makes me sick to see all of her Little Monsters worrying sick about her. She is famous, popular, has a cult full of fans who call her Mother Monster, Wealthy and yet we are supposed to feel sorry for her because someone says her song felt reductive ? Sorry to rant, but is just so incredibly silly.

[ketchup]

But that's not what she wants - she wants it all, she wants to continue being a pop culture staple while still being a demi goddess like Lennon, and this year is proof of that - her amazing, brave stints in Russia which could've gotten her thrown in jail, her inspiring tour, combined with the spectacle she has caused this year with a million different things. It's been an amazing year for her for sure.

Right, all the more reason it's unnecessary to belittle Gaga though

[Ai Papi Si.]

I'm sorry but I think that's hilarious And it's different. Madonna and Elton John are on the same level. Musical legends who go tit for tat with each other. Whereas I see Madonna as former "mentor" inspiration etc being pretty awful to Gaga. That's the distinction I make. We can go in circles talking about what's worse but to me, that's the distinction. Madonna is a 54 year old pop legend picking on a 25 year old girl who is at the beginning of her career.

I never thought of it that way - I guess because Gaga has purported herself to be quite tougher than she is, and if she's taking a middle aged woman's digs to heart then I feel bad for her. She's obviously a bit lost priority wise if that's the case - but then it would make sense, all she does is use Twitter all day and talk to her fans and do the whole Jesus Wept thing with them, so maybe she is quite sensitive to it.

Anyway, Madonna's not your average 54 year old anyway so why be angry with her for not being a kiss-ass, and she has been that way with lots of other people. Look at how pathetic Elton John is when it comes to that. Now there's someone who truly has no self confidence and all he DOES is hang onto other celebrities.

[Ai Papi Si.]

Right, all the more reason it's unnecessary to belittle Gaga though

Well something tells me the story is far from over and this is all gonna culminate in some very calculated spectacle which would support my theory that this whole thing was made up.

[ketchup]

So true. Personally, I think if calling someone's song reductive and saying imitation is the highest form of flattery while also saying you love them, is considered bullying, then we have all become a lot of weak idiots. How can that be called bullying ? Seriously, have these people that call this bullying ever be bullied ? I think all this nonsense and over-exaggeration of Lady Gaga being bullied by Madonna, does so much harm to the serious issue of people being bullied for real. People will read this and soon become sick to death of hearing about bullying and all of a sudden being bullied for real is not a big thing. Do others see this as well ? Elton John said far worse about Madonna yet got off bloody scott-free because stupid people just thought he was defending Lady Gaga. It makes me sick to see all of her Little Monsters worrying sick about her. She is famous, popular, has a cult full of fans who call her Mother Monster, Wealthy and yet we are supposed to feel sorry for her because someone says her song felt reductive ? Sorry to rant, but is just so incredibly silly.

Madonna is shady as hell! You don't even need to read between the lines to discern she is being a bitch. You guys at least need to own that.

[ketchup]

Well something tells me the story is far from over and this is all gonna culminate in some very calculated spectacle which would support my theory that this whole thing was made up.

It's all really weird. Something about the way Madonna said they'd be on stage soon was threatening and ominious.

I'd like it to end too, but I guess it's only as important we all make and here we all are talking about it.

[Jazzy Jan]

He called her a fairground stripper which basically means... an old and ugly stripper. Oh, and he called her a cunt, a nightmare, and said her career was over, and that her tour was a disaster.

Hey, no big deal though.

But Ketchup's right... Madonna took it in stride, whereas everyone's acting like Madonna gave Gaga similar treatment and she didn't.

Again, spot on 12:51. Ketchup, I appreciate that you are defending Lady Gaga as you are obviously a big fan. But please, never compare calling someone a cunt, a nightmare, a fairground stripper and saying their tour is a disaster to CORRECTLY pointing out that the BTW and express yourself are basically the same song with just a few small differences in structure. It is so easy for Elton to have a go at Madonna because he is smart enough to know that the press will also run down Madonna and support him. Lady Gaga always gets a great go from the press. Have you seen the footage of the Monster Ball when she comes out of a giant vagina ( sorry, I don't know how else to word this ) If that was Madonna, all we would be hearing was anger from all the moral fun police and she would be called disgusting and a slut. But when Lady Gaga does anything sexual, she does not even cop any flak. The media love Lady Gaga and will always side with her and to them Madonna will always be the one to blame. Look at the way the Elton attacking Madonna has been called a feud when it is Elton who has been doing all the nasty talk.

[Rugbyguy]

Ketchup I'm sorry buddy, you have no idea what you are on about and you don't even realise that the members of this forum are running rings around you and your just making yourself look stupid.

I'm not usually negative or confrontational but you're annoying me, I don't want to log into my favourite Madonna forum and read you talking about Gaga EVERY SINGLE FUCKING DAY and talking about Madonna like you know what your on about because you just don't.

Go and talk about her in the Gorgon thread.

[peter]

GAH.

I surrender. This is just head-scratchingly, eye-rollingly maddening to try and have this conversation.

I tend to agree with jazzyjan. It's "reductive" of what actual bullying is to call Madonna's comments about Gaga bullying. She isn't even ridiculing her or belittling her. She's been VERY careful to say lovely nice flowery things about Gaga the girl, and has only commented somewhat critically on her work -- specifically ONE song, not her whole body of work. That song was compared to Madonna's own in the press for a year before Madonna even commented on it, at the behest of not only her interviewer, but the internet community which rallied to request that question more than any other.

I'm not saying Madonna is perfect, but come on. There's a huge difference between making a few comments about a song that clearly shares some musical DNA (if you will) and intimidating or threatening someone. She's not terrorizing Gaga. She's not calling her names, damaging her self-esteem or confidence.

And if Gaga truly viewed Madonna as a mentor, I doubt she'd have been thanking Whitney Houston at the Grammys when she just pulled 15 moves and a blonde ponytail from BAT for her performance of a song that lifted melodic lines from EY.

Gaga is just as responsible if she allows her Twittery fan base to spew hatred at Madonna on the internet, if she allows Elton John to "defend" her by saying the horrid things Miguel mentioned, if she allows her producer to say that "granny forgot to take her meds," if she allows her collaborator to post a "F*CK MADONNA" film clip (from a Judas Priest fan in a rockumentary) -- and says absolutely NOTHING about any of it. At least Madonna's telling her fanbase that she loves Gaga and forgives her. She's not stirring up more hatred or allowing her own minions to shred Gaga in the public forum.

[ketchup]

Ketchup I'm sorry buddy, you have no idea what you are on about and you don't even realise that the members of this forum are running rings around you and your just making yourself look stupid.

I'm not usually negative or confrontational but you're annoying me, I don't want to log into my favourite Madonna forum and read you talking about Gaga EVERY SINGLE FUCKING DAY and talking about Madonna like you know what your on about because you just don't.

Go and talk about her in the Gorgon thread.

If you don't want to hear about Gaga don't go into a thread that is about her dummy.

[ketchup]

GAH.

I surrender. This is just head-scratchingly, eye-rollingly maddening to try and have this conversation.

I tend to agree with jazzyjan. It's "reductive" of what actual bullying is to call Madonna's comments about Gaga bullying. She isn't even ridiculing her or belittling her. She's been VERY careful to say lovely nice flowery things about Gaga the girl, and has only commented somewhat critically on her work -- specifically ONE song, not her whole body of work. That song was compared to Madonna's own in the press for a year before Madonna even commented on it, at the behest of not only her interviewer, but the internet community which rallied to request that question more than any other.

I'm not saying Madonna is perfect, but come on. There's a huge difference between making a few comments about a song that clearly shares some musical DNA (if you will) and intimidating or threatening someone. She's not terrorizing Gaga. She's not calling her names, damaging her self-esteem or confidence.

And if Gaga truly viewed Madonna as a mentor, I doubt she'd have been thanking Whitney Houston at the Grammys when she just pulled 15 moves and a blonde ponytail from BAT for her performance of a song that lifted melodic lines from EY.

Gaga is just as responsible if she allows her Twittery fan base to spew hatred at Madonna on the internet, if she allows Elton John to "defend" her by saying the horrid things Miguel mentioned, if she allows her producer to say that "granny forgot to take her meds," if she allows her collaborator to post a "F*CK MADONNA" film clip (from a Judas Priest fan in a rockumentary) -- and says absolutely NOTHING about any of it. At least Madonna's telling her fanbase that she loves Gaga and forgives her. She's not stirring up more hatred or allowing her own minions to shred Gaga in the public forum.

Gaga's no saint either I've said that. I think everything past "Reductive" was not necessary and that Madonna's actions have made her look immature. And she hasn't been nice is the thing, because every "nice" thing she says is followed by something catty. But anyway yeah, even I'm getting bored of talking about this.

[peter]

^ Okay, yeah, it is boring now, but just to point out, when Madonna was on Graham Norton she didn't say anything catty about Gaga. It was only nice. It's not every time - some of those smaller interviews (like the Italian ones and the British ones) to support the MDNA release and the beginning of the tour also asked about Gaga and she was nothing but sweet. The catty comments have echoed the loudest around the blogosphere, but ... I mean, when you consider that Cher was calling Madonna a c*nt how many years ago, and ... oh, heck. Madonna's been pretty clever without resorting to actual mean-spiritedness, and the criticism has been aimed at artistic merits -- and, mainly, it's been expressed through artistic means in terms of the EY/BTW performance and backdrop video visuals.

[slam3000]

I'm sorry but I think that's hilarious And it's different. Madonna and Elton John are on the same level. Musical legends who go tit for tat with each other. Whereas I see Madonna as former "mentor" inspiration etc being pretty awful to Gaga. That's the distinction I make. We can go in circles talking about what's worse but to me, that's the distinction. Madonna is a 54 year old pop legend picking on a 25 year old girl who is at the beginning of her career.

Except even in the media it's been acknowledged that Elton's 'feud' with M is pretty one sided, so hardly going 'tit for tat with each other'.

I must admit to being bored of this whole 'diva war' but it's only going to end when Gaga stops thieving from Madonna. Or, if she must copy her, at least have the grace to be honest about it and give Madonna credit. And that's the real issue here. Why has Gaga been so reluctant to admit that Madonna is her number one inspiration when she's such a massive wannabe - the biggest of them all, actually?

If and when Gaga acknowledges her enormous debt to Madonna and is publicly respectful of Madonna's influence and legacy then there will be no more need for threads like this, let alone them running to 8 pages plus.

[MadFan]

Calling Madonna an old stripper is not vicious, it's funny. Madonna puts herself in that position. Most of the world sees her desperate to stay relevant. But Madonna is strong she can take it riiiiiiight?

Says it all. You (& the world) hold Madonna to a different standard 'cuz she's taken more shit than anyone else throughout her career. It's not that she's a veteran, it's that people "can" trash her only because she's shown resilience to it. Where you cry or LaLa you feel indifference for M. Oh well what can you do.

"I'm tough. I can take it."[/EstherSecret]

[Ai Papi Si.]

Says it all. You (& the world) hold Madonna to a different standard 'cuz she's taken more shit than anyone else throughout her career. It's not that she's a veteran, it's that people "can" trash her only because she's shown resilience to it. Where you cry or LaLa you feel indifference for M. Oh well what can you do.

"I'm tough. I can take it."[/EstherSecret]

[ketchup]

Except even in the media it's been acknowledged that Elton's 'feud' with M is pretty one sided, so hardly going 'tit for tat with each other'.

I must admit to being bored of this whole 'diva war' but it's only going to end when Gaga stops thieving from Madonna. Or, if she must copy her, at least have the grace to be honest about it and give Madonna credit. And that's the real issue here. Why has Gaga been so reluctant to admit that Madonna is her number one inspiration when she's such a massive wannabe - the biggest of them all, actually?

If and when Gaga acknowledges her enormous debt to Madonna and is publicly respectful of Madonna's influence and legacy then there will be no more need for threads like this, let alone them running to 8 pages plus.

Because Madonna isn't her only or biggest inspiration. And Gaga has cited her influence on many occasions.

There will be no more threads like this when Madonna stops talking about her

[ketchup]

Says it all. You (& the world) hold Madonna to a different standard 'cuz she's taken more shit than anyone else throughout her career. It's not that she's a veteran, it's that people "can" trash her only because she's shown resilience to it. Where you cry or LaLa you feel indifference for M. Oh well what can you do.

"I'm tough. I can take it."[/EstherSecret]

That was in response to saying Madonna was getting bullied by Elton and that his comments were worse. And I made the distinction that jabs among peers and someone of madonna's status coming for Gaga is quite different. Don't know why that was hard to understand.