Patrick Leonard Speaks ..and he misses Madonna!

[Jazzy Jan]

It is quite depressing how people never want to give Madonna proper credit for her achievements. Even her own fans do it continually. Not only has she co-written many songs, but as other members have pointed out, she has written some solo.

Madonna won a dance scholarship and yet people say she can't dance well. She has written music and played in bands before she was famous. Read accounts of her life by Dan and Ed Gillroy and you will see how she was incredibly involved and dedicated to song-writing. She sings beautiful ballads and pop classics beautifully yet people say she can't sing. Producers, song-writers, musicians and other artists who have worked with her have all commented on how musical and hands-on she is, yet on this very thread people are doubting her ability.

[mangapop]

I think people tend to forget that writing credits are a dirty business. Look at the situation between Shep and Tony Shimkin. People will do anything to get their name on a writing credit. Frankie Lymon's record executive had falsely taken writing credits on all their songs, just so he could receive royalties.

I think Tony Shimikin is one of the producers of Erotica, although the credits doesn't say so.

Edited October 11, 2013 by mangapop

[mangapop]

It is quite depressing how people never want to give Madonna proper credit for her achievements. Even her own fans do it continually. Not only has she co-written many songs, but as other members have pointed out, she has written some solo.

Madonna won a dance scholarship and yet people say she can't dance well. She has written music and played in bands before she was famous. Read accounts of her life by Dan and Ed Gillroy and you will see how she was incredibly involved and dedicated to song-writing. She sings beautiful ballads and pop classics beautifully yet people say she can't sing. Producers, song-writers, musicians and other artists who have worked with her have all commented on how musical and hands-on she is, yet on this very thread people are doubting her ability.

I have always seen her as a good dancer. I guess many people think great dancers are those who dance to hip hop/r'n'b music.

I guess you understand what I mean. They don't see other form of dance besid that stupid urban dance.

If Madonna was good at ballet, they still wouldn't consider her a dancer.

Edited October 11, 2013 by mangapop

[VogueMusic]

You are right it doesn't always make it great if one person does all, but even if more people are working together to create music doesn't mean the resul will be great. Making successful music doesn't mean making quality music.

I think the track record for "musical collaboration" vs. "doing it all yourself" is far better.

And I should have added to my final line in my last post - Look at your favorite records. Look at the most successful music of all time. AND look at the best quality music. More often than not it is from collaboration.

[madonnasuperfan01]

It is quite depressing how people never want to give Madonna proper credit for her achievements. Even her own fans do it continually. Not only has she co-written many songs, but as other members have pointed out, she has written some solo.

Madonna won a dance scholarship and yet people say she can't dance well. She has written music and played in bands before she was famous. Read accounts of her life by Dan and Ed Gillroy and you will see how she was incredibly involved and dedicated to song-writing. She sings beautiful ballads and pop classics beautifully yet people say she can't sing. Producers, song-writers, musicians and other artists who have worked with her have all commented on how musical and hands-on she is, yet on this very thread people are doubting her ability.

Totally agree. Seeing her own fans doubting her is what's really sad.

I mean we ALL know that Madonna doesn't do everything by herself, it's a fact. But she is definitively implicated in the writing of her music, if she wasn't the truth would have come out at a point or another.

And let's not forget that 5 songs on her debut album were entirely written by herself and it was at a time when it would have been impossible for her to buy writing crédits (she wasn't exactly rich at that time after all).

[mangapop]

I think the track record for "musical collaboration" vs. "doing it all yourself" is far better.

And I should have added to my final line in my last post - Look at your favorite records. Look at the most successful music of all time. AND look at the best quality music. More often than not it is from collaboration.

Of course there are more collaborations. One person doing the whole thing is rare.

Edited October 11, 2013 by mangapop

[Guest Rachelle of London]

I have always seen her as a good dancer. I guess many people think great dancers are those who dance to hip hop/r'n'b music.

I guess you understand what I mean. They don't see other form of dance besid that stupid urban dance.

If Madonna was good at ballet, they still wouldn't consider her a dancer.

HUH????

[Guest Rachelle of London]

This thread just confuses my brain!

[VogueMusic]

It is quite depressing how people never want to give Madonna proper credit for her achievements. Even her own fans do it continually. Not only has she co-written many songs, but as other members have pointed out, she has written some solo.

Madonna won a dance scholarship and yet people say she can't dance well. She has written music and played in bands before she was famous. Read accounts of her life by Dan and Ed Gillroy and you will see how she was incredibly involved and dedicated to song-writing. She sings beautiful ballads and pop classics beautifully yet people say she can't sing. Producers, song-writers, musicians and other artists who have worked with her have all commented on how musical and hands-on she is, yet on this very thread people are doubting her ability.

YES! YES! YES!

And let's not even get started on how involved she is in the conception and creative direction of how she presents her music - the performance concepts, the staging and direction, the design - stage, props, costumes, video, lighting, etc., the art direction, the 'persona's' and 'characters', the stories...which directly affect the marketing, the PR, the way she conducts business. Let's not even start on her business mind.

For nearly 30+ years, literally everyone involved with her in some way can't ever stop talking about how involved she is in every thing she does, obsessed with every detail. You'd think by now people would listen...

[drunkbysix]

Cmoodys posts in here are giving me such a bad vibe, it's like everything that madonna has done in terms of songwriting is refuted or devalued matter of factly. I mean madonna does not go in and write all the music herself although she has composed melodies solely. This post was meant to praise her abilities right?

[VogueMusic]

I guess many people think great dancers are those who dance to hip hop/r'n'b music.

They don't see other form of dance besid that stupid urban dance.

Excuse me boo....?

HUH????

My thoughts exactly.

[mangapop]

In case you didn't understand, as far as I know, many think you have to dance like in movies Honey or Step Up do be considered as a great dancer.

[Elysium]

Leonard is a very talented man. He added a level of refinement and maturity to M's music and song writing unlike no other.

[LSD]

HUH????

I took his post to be referring to the Janet Jackson/Paula Abdul/early Britney sort of pop n' lock military choreo.

For many, many people who like pop music, that is their entire idea of dancing. So they believe that Madonna can't dance.

[Guest Rachelle of London]

In case you didn't understand, as far as I know, many think you have to dance like in movies Honey or Step Up do be considered as a great dancer.

who do you hang around with, never heard such comments or statements in my life, especially coming from a Madonna fan. Madonna herself has never trained in hip hop dance.

[mangapop]

who do you hang around with, never heard such comments or statements in my life, especially coming from a Madonna fan. Madonna herself has never trained in hip hop dance.

S&S had elements of urban dancing.

Anyway, people i know are usually impressed with urban dance.

[Rollap]

I didn't realize the article was written by that notorious and biast hater. Blah.

But I think the Leonard interview confirms that Madonna is more a lyrist and an overall "fine tuner" of the melody and sound of the music. She isn't sitting around at the piano composing her own melodies and it is unfair to the likes of Patrick Leonard to suggest otherwise. Madonna does not have solo writing credits for any of her music, her songwriting involvement has always been collaborative. She is still a songwriter, and highly talented in her involvement and contribution, but she is not churning out her material all on her own.

Don't be a dick, she creates the melodies a lot of the time and her cowriter translates it into written music. Don't you ever read interviews with her collaborators? Flop fan

Edited October 11, 2013 by Rollap

[Rollap]

You are right it doesn't always make it great if one person does all, but even if more people are working together to create music doesn't mean the resul will be great. Making successful music doesn't mean making quality music.

KATE BUSH works alone and she always shows how great music genius she is.

Im a huge KB fan, but she can't come up with melodies like Madonna. Her strength is in her clever lyrics and theatrical style.

But TUNES...that's Madonnas forte

[Roland Barthes]

You are right it doesn't always make it great if one person does all, but even if more people are working together to create music doesn't mean the resul will be great. Making successful music doesn't mean making quality music.

KATE BUSH works alone and she always shows how great music genius she is.

Kate Bush has some great duds in her catalogue like the sensual world and most of all the red shoes. That said the other albums are great enough to forget these misteps. I absolutely love Kate Bush but her music did not shape the popular inconscient and pop culture for 30 years and ihave a problem with musicians who refuses to tour or at least play live.

[mangapop]

Im a huge KB fan, but she can't come up with melodies like Madonna. Her strength is in her clever lyrics and theatrical style.

But TUNES...that's Madonnas forte

Well Kate Bush isn't a pop musician. She could make catchy tunes, but she doesn't want to. She doesn't want to be mainstream artist and to be popular like Madonna.

Edited October 11, 2013 by mangapop

[mangapop]

Kate Bush has some great duds in her catalogue like the sensual world and most of all the red shoes. That said the other albums are great enough to forget these misteps. I absolutely love Kate Bush but her music did not shape the popular inconscient and pop culture for 30 years and ihave a problem with musicians who refuses to tour or at least play live.

Sensual World is great. The Red Shoes is just a collection of songs, some songs even sound unfinished, but it is still good.

Kate Bush is genius, every musician should know her work. I wouldn't say it didn't shape the music world. The problem is that many want to make mainstream music, so Kate Bush doesn't fit in that concept.

[Jazzy Jan]

Well Kate Bus isn't pop musician. She could make catchy tunes, but she doesn't want to. She doesn't want to be mainsteram artist and to be popualr like Madonna.

Wuthering Heights and Babooshka were huge mainstream hit songs. Anyway, why are we always comparing female artists to each other. Kate Bush is apparently very shy and does not like the limelight. She has spoken about this before and as Popeline says she does not tour or perform live

I also don't understand why people seem to have difficulty in admiring Madonna for being popular and having mainstream hits. If you love an artist and their music, it is your taste and choice. It does not matter what genre or style you want to pigeon hole them to be. I love Madonna's music and would still love her music regardless of how popular or critically loved it was. I think she is one of a kind and so far ahead of the other pop queens out there. Does not mean I can't appreciate other artists music as well though.

[mangapop]

Wuthering Heights and Babooska were huge mainstream hit songs. Anyway, why are we always comparing female artists to each other. Kate Bush is apparently very shy and does not like the limelight. She has spoken about this before and as Popeline says she does not tour or perform live

I also don't understand why people seem to have difficulty in admiring Madonna for being popular and having mainstream hits. If you love an artist and their music, it is your taste and choice. It does not matter what genre or style you want to pigeon hole them to be. I love Madonna's music and would still love her music regardless of how popular or critically loved it was. I think she is one of a kind and so far ahead of the other pop queens out there. Does not mean I can't appreciate other artists music as well though.

Wuthering Heights and Babooska were mainsteram hits, but they aren't mainstream music.

I wasn't comparing Madonan to Kate Bush. I mentioned Kate Bush as a perfect example of an artist who makes everything by herself.

Anyway, I dont't even see Madonna as a maker of mainstream music. Actually, she has made a lot of that kind of music, but again she made a lot of things which aren't mainstream.

[FreeMySoul]

it would be a great treat if those two reunited

[Guest]

Wuthering Heights and Babooska were mainsteram hits, but they aren't mainstream music.

WTF?! Yes they are!

Do you know the meanings of the words main and stream?!

Main.

1. Most important; principal. See Synonyms at chief.

2. Exerted to the utmost; sheer: by main strength.

Stream.

3. A steady flow or succession: a stream of insults. See Synonyms at flow.

4. A trend, course, or drift, as of opinion, thought, or history.

So if music is popular and successful it is mainstream. Fact. Kate bush is not underground or Avante garde. She is a mainstream artist who is low key. I don't understand people's problems with understanding that POP is not a musical genre.

[Guest]

Oh and Kate is NOT a composer. So while she may decide on the content of her songs she can't write all of the musical parts to the exact measure. She's obviously collaborating with session musicians/her band while recording songs.

[LCD]

jazzyjan, on 11 Oct 2013 - 6:04 PM, said:

It is quite depressing how people never want to give Madonna proper credit for her achievements. Even her own fans do it continually. Not only has she co-written many songs, but as other members have pointed out, she has written some solo.

Madonna won a dance scholarship and yet people say she can't dance well. She has written music and played in bands before she was famous. Read accounts of her life by Dan and Ed Gillroy and you will see how she was incredibly involved and dedicated to song-writing. She sings beautiful ballads and pop classics beautifully yet people say she can't sing. Producers, song-writers, musicians and other artists who have worked with her have all commented on how musical and hands-on she is, yet on this very thread people are doubting her ability.

YES! YES! YES!

And let's not even get started on how involved she is in the conception and creative direction of how she presents her music - the performance concepts, the staging and direction, the design - stage, props, costumes, video, lighting, etc., the art direction, the 'persona's' and 'characters', the stories...which directly affect the marketing, the PR, the way she conducts business. Let's not even start on her business mind.

For nearly 30+ years, literally everyone involved with her in some way can't ever stop talking about how involved she is in every thing she does, obsessed with every detail. You'd think by now people would listen...

Agree with these two posts so much. It's almost as if some people cannot handle Madonna, because there's never been anyone like her who has done it at such a level for so long. And people who dislike her, for whatever reason, must be exasperated continuously that she keeps on achieving and staying at the top -- it's like they can't stand it -- so they will look for ANY way they can to cut her down or discredit her. It's like a sickness. In reality, they're just pissed that she works harder than, and runs circles around, their faves.

[Guest bluejean]

That article is so shit. Patrick Leonard said only complimentary things about Madonna and the journalist put a negative slant on it.

He didn't actually say Madonna "helped" with the melodies. Only the journo adds that slant on it. He actually indicates that Madonna wrote the melodies.

[Guest bluejean]

AND He says Madonna "definitely doesn't write the music." That may have been the case when she worked with Pat but not entirely anymore since she plays guitar now.

[LSD]

AND He says Madonna "definitely doesn't write the music." That may have been the case when she worked with Pat but not entirely anymore since she plays guitar now.

True, on Music and American Life especially I get the impression that a lot of the songs had very minimal outside input and were mostly just her on guitar, and/or were very near to being completed by herself and just needed a bit more work.