William Orbit On Madonna.

[cosmic_system]

This is what i was trying to get out of you. Cause i dont think this was ever even established.

Just based on the Spanish Lesson clip (since he's singing nonsense/gibberish) it seemed more as though Pharrell came up with the beat, melody, and lyrical content and passed it on to M to see if M liked it. Afterall, Pharrell's take is written in the male perspective, so M ended up re-writing pretty much the whole thing to fit to her own likes.

You made it sound like it was some Pharrell track leftover from a previous recording session of his many moons ago and just gave it to m.

Heartbeat WAS a leftover and the demo was recorded by that pussycat doll.

[Guest Danny86]

Anna:

"fat chance these two will be working together again though."

[ryan]

Heartbeat WAS a leftover and the demo was recorded by that pussycat doll.

I don't think so.

[cosmic_system]

I don't think so.

It doesn't matter what you think, the demo is sung by another singer and that singer was well known.

[Kurt420]

I'm surprised to see a lot of fans still want them to work together. I seem to remember his work with her on Music getting slammed by most fans at the time and even now.

[cosmic_system]

I'm surprised to see a lot of fans still want them to work together. I seem to remember his work with her on Music getting slammed by most fans at the time and even now.

I actually like his work on Music, yes a little bit tired but I like it.

Anyway, I just think everyone is better than Guetta

[ryan]

It doesn't matter what you think, the demo is sung by another singer and that singer was well known.

That means nothing.

And first off, the female singer on the demo was never confirmed. There is still a big debate among Neptunes/Pharrell fans on whether that is Nicole Scherzinger or not. And secondly, Pharrell recorded the demo for Madonna, it was meant for Madonna.

[cosmic_system]

Yeah whatever.

[ryan]

Yeah whatever.

Hope you had a great xmas pookums!!!

[Guest Danny86]

When that demo leaked, a Neptunes fansite said it was a vocal demonstration for Madonna. Pharrell is kinda making fun of the lyrics Madonna sings instead of doing a full song. Nicole was never confirmed, Madonna fans on forums said it was her and then it got spread around. Anyway, even if it's true and she only changed bits, it's still more than she did in some of the Music tracks, so you can't even say she was lazy or less inspired.

[Carta]

As Danny86 said, the original Neputes site that leaked the track said that it was a "vocal demonstration" (many people refused to accept that, though, and argued the point at the time). It really did seem like Pharrell was sending up/making fun of Madonna's lyrics. In any case, the lyrics have been reworked between the two versions, so if this is the demo that was presented to Madonna, it's certainly not identical to the version she recorded.

Which tracks on "Music" did she have little to do with, Danny?

[ryan]

Pharrell did the same with Ring My Bell. I dont think he wanted to sing in the female perspective. Plus, in Hearbeat, he was def making up those lyrics as he was singing. you can easily tell

[Guest Danny86]

Which tracks on "Music" did she have little to do with, Danny?

Impressive Instant, Don't Tell Me, Paradise, it's all in Nightshade's genesis thread about Music. "Paradise" was already a finished song, for II the music was already done and she wrote lyrics on top of it, DTM we all know it's basically a cover.

[Carta]

Impressive Instant, Don't Tell Me, Paradise, it's all in Nightshade's genesis thread about Music. "Paradise" was already a finished song, for II the music was already done and she wrote lyrics on top of it, DTM we all know it's basically a cover.

Ah OK. "Paradise" was an instrumental (i.e. it wasn't a "finished song", since it had no lyrics to sing... ) and Madonna wrote lyrics for it (and, presumably, elaborated on the melody, since not everything she sings appears as a melody line in the instrumental version). For this, she received a 33% publishing credit (from memory), reflecting the fact that she wrote the lyrics and developed the melody (i.e. it's not really fair to say that she had very little to do with the song, since she turned an instrumental into a finished song - take away Madonna's input and you have a very different piece of work).

Again, with II, writing the lyrics made an instrumental a song and given that that the instrumental itself appears to contain next to none of the melody that Madonna sings, it's fair to assume that she was solely responsible for writing the melody for II (compare this to "Paradise", where the moody bell-like chimes contain the bulk of the melody that Madonna wrote her lyrics to fit - just like Bjorn wrote his lyrics to fit Benny Andersson's melodies.... - and note that for her extra input into II, Madonna received a 50% share, as opposed to the 33% she received for "Paradise").

DTM is, of course, a different case.

It's fairly well documented that many of Madonna's collaborators present her with instrumentals and that she works with to create a song (i.e. she writes the lyrics and the melody). A track like LTT, for example, contains a lot of the melody in the instrumental, and it's clear that Madonna's contribution was writing the lyrics and elaborating on the melody (the "I have a tale to tell" melody is the basic one, since it appears in the instrumental, and any variation on that was probably Madonna's doing. For the chorus, the instrumental contains the basic melody and Madonna elaborates on it and alters it to fit her lyrics). "La Isla Bonita" was a finished instrumental when Madonna first worked on it and it's likely that she wrote the melody (as well as the lyrics, of course), since it doesn't appear in the instrumental version. Stuart Price has commented on Madonna's ability to come up with a melody on the spot to fit a backing track. Some songs Madonna is involved with from their inception, whereas for others, she works with a completed backing track. "Celebration" was an instrumental when Paul Oakenfold played it to her and its co-writer said that Madonna wrote "the lyrics and the melody", so she certainly earned her 50% share there.

All interesting stuff!

[howie]

yes Carta, you just described how Revolver was made

written and produced by M

[Guest jamesshot]

She should have collaborated with Orbit on the 2 songs for Celebration.

[Lucky guy]

Anna:

"fat chance these two will be working together again though."

Ugh, she really is a quite repellent.

[Nightshade]

That means nothing.

And first off, the female singer on the demo was never confirmed. There is still a big debate among Neptunes/Pharrell fans on whether that is Nicole Scherzinger or not. And secondly, Pharrell recorded the demo for Madonna, it was meant for Madonna.

That's what I always assumed too. One day, when I do a Hard Candy genesis thread, you will see that while Madonna was in Tokyo for her Confessions Tour (Sept. 2006), she ran into Pharrell there and he asked if he could write her a song and she said yes. I think this is where Hard Candy - as a project - started.

Pharrell was working with Nicole Scherzinger (who may or may not be on the demo version) in the Fall of 2006 for her solo album. I can totally see Pharrell asking her "Hey, I am gonna do some tracks for Madonna, do you wanna sing on the chorus to help me give her an idea of what I want this to sound like?"

It just seems plausible to me. Of course, I wasn't there so I can't say with any certainty. However, if the track was meant for Nicole's album - why is she just singing the chorus? Wouldn't there be a demo with just her singing it? I suppose it could be for Pharrell's album, but this doesn't sound like his typical subject matter.

I think it is obvious that Pharrell had sent Madonna SOMETHING prior to actually going into the studio, as that seems to be her modus operandi - collect instrumental tracks and then decide which ones she wants to record.

[Guest Danny86]

Ah OK. "Paradise" was an instrumental (i.e. it wasn't a "finished song", since it had no lyrics to sing... ) and Madonna wrote lyrics for it (and, presumably, elaborated on the melody, since not everything she sings appears as a melody line in the instrumental version). For this, she received a 33% publishing credit (from memory), reflecting the fact that she wrote the lyrics and developed the melody (i.e. it's not really fair to say that she had very little to do with the song, since she turned an instrumental into a finished song - take away Madonna's input and you have a very different piece of work).

No, Madonna herself said it was a finished song and she wanted to "sing it" and "wanted it for her own album" even though Mirwais was already putting it on Production. It's possible she changed a few words but for sure the French lyrics were already there. Unlike with II, she's listed as the second writer and producer so her input was less, you're right, she did get 33% credit but it seems her input was truly minimal.

[loomer]

Ah OK. "Paradise" was an instrumental (i.e. it wasn't a "finished song", since it had no lyrics to sing... ) and Madonna wrote lyrics for it (and, presumably, elaborated on the melody, since not everything she sings appears as a melody line in the instrumental version). For this, she received a 33% publishing credit (from memory), reflecting the fact that she wrote the lyrics and developed the melody (i.e. it's not really fair to say that she had very little to do with the song, since she turned an instrumental into a finished song - take away Madonna's input and you have a very different piece of work).

Again, with II, writing the lyrics made an instrumental a song and given that that the instrumental itself appears to contain next to none of the melody that Madonna sings, it's fair to assume that she was solely responsible for writing the melody for II (compare this to "Paradise", where the moody bell-like chimes contain the bulk of the melody that Madonna wrote her lyrics to fit - just like Bjorn wrote his lyrics to fit Benny Andersson's melodies.... - and note that for her extra input into II, Madonna received a 50% share, as opposed to the 33% she received for "Paradise").

DTM is, of course, a different case.

It's fairly well documented that many of Madonna's collaborators present her with instrumentals and that she works with to create a song (i.e. she writes the lyrics and the melody). A track like LTT, for example, contains a lot of the melody in the instrumental, and it's clear that Madonna's contribution was writing the lyrics and elaborating on the melody (the "I have a tale to tell" melody is the basic one, since it appears in the instrumental, and any variation on that was probably Madonna's doing. For the chorus, the instrumental contains the basic melody and Madonna elaborates on it and alters it to fit her lyrics). "La Isla Bonita" was a finished instrumental when Madonna first worked on it and it's likely that she wrote the melody (as well as the lyrics, of course), since it doesn't appear in the instrumental version. Stuart Price has commented on Madonna's ability to come up with a melody on the spot to fit a backing track. Some songs Madonna is involved with from their inception, whereas for others, she works with a completed backing track. "Celebration" was an instrumental when Paul Oakenfold played it to her and its co-writer said that Madonna wrote "the lyrics and the melody", so she certainly earned her 50% share there.

All interesting stuff!

Indeed it is

FABULOUS, Carta

You always have some of the best info about Madonna

[Nightshade]

Ah OK. "Paradise" was an instrumental (i.e. it wasn't a "finished song", since it had no lyrics to sing... ) and Madonna wrote lyrics for it (and, presumably, elaborated on the melody, since not everything she sings appears as a melody line in the instrumental version). For this, she received a 33% publishing credit (from memory), reflecting the fact that she wrote the lyrics and developed the melody (i.e. it's not really fair to say that she had very little to do with the song, since she turned an instrumental into a finished song - take away Madonna's input and you have a very different piece of work).

Again, with II, writing the lyrics made an instrumental a song and given that that the instrumental itself appears to contain next to none of the melody that Madonna sings, it's fair to assume that she was solely responsible for writing the melody for II (compare this to "Paradise", where the moody bell-like chimes contain the bulk of the melody that Madonna wrote her lyrics to fit - just like Bjorn wrote his lyrics to fit Benny Andersson's melodies.... - and note that for her extra input into II, Madonna received a 50% share, as opposed to the 33% she received for "Paradise").

From my thread:

Mirwaïs says the first song they did was “Impressive Instant” because it was the most ‘complete’ demo he had originally sent to Madonna in the first batch of songs. He says the track was an instrumental that was never intended to be included on Production but Madonna had ideas for it lyrically, so he had her sing them to him soon after they met in London (at SARM Studios) for the first time in late October 1999. "Paradise" was also a fully formed track when Mirwaïs sent it to Madonna. "Those are live strings, arranged by Cyril Morin," he says. "This track was originally for my own album, Production. When she listened to my tracks, she absolutely wanted to sing this one. My only problem was that I wanted to include it on my own album. So it's on both my album and hers! The only difference is I did a two-bar edit on my version."

[Guest Danny86]

That's what I always assumed too. One day, when I do a Hard Candy genesis thread, you will see that while Madonna was in Tokyo for her Confessions Tour (Sept. 2006), she ran into Pharrell there and he asked if he could write her a song and she said yes. I think this is where Hard Candy - as a project - started.

Pharrell was working with Nicole Scherzinger (who may or may not be on the demo version) in the Fall of 2006 for her solo album. I can totally see Pharrell asking her "Hey, I am gonna do some tracks for Madonna, do you wanna sing on the chorus to help me give her an idea of what I want this to sound like?"

It just seems plausible to me. Of course, I wasn't there so I can't say with any certainty. However, if the track was meant for Nicole's album - why is she just singing the chorus? Wouldn't there be a demo with just her singing it? I suppose it could be for Pharrell's album, but this doesn't sound like his typical subject matter.

I think it is obvious that Pharrell had sent Madonna SOMETHING prior to actually going into the studio, as that seems to be her modus operandi - collect instrumental tracks and then decide which ones she wants to record.

But wasn't "Candy Shop" the first thing they recorded? Pharrell said they only had 1 song done and Timbaland was teasing him about that, which pushed him to do more tracks. Of course it's possible the Pharrell version of "Heartbeat" was already done and Madonna decided to record it sometime later, but I think it was done during the process and Pharrell did that demo to show how to SING it, remember Madonna repeatedly said this album was all about her collaborators changing her vocals and putting her out of her comfort zone, and Pharrell made her cry because she couldn't sing something the way he wanted.

And where was it revealed that they met in Japan? Did Pharrell say that in an interview? Does that mean she never went back to the studio with Stuart? I remember early 2007, sometime before they broke the news about Pharrell, Madonna Tribe said Madonna was back in the studio with familiar faces, did they only mean Mark Spike Stent and Monte Pittman then?

[Carta]

yes Carta, you just described how Revolver was made

written and produced by M

I don't recall mentioning "Revolver" in my post. Perhaps you were reading something else

[Carta]

From my thread:

Mirwaïs says the first song they did was “Impressive Instant” because it was the most ‘complete’ demo he had originally sent to Madonna in the first batch of songs. He says the track was an instrumental that was never intended to be included on Production but Madonna had ideas for it lyrically, so he had her sing them to him soon after they met in London (at SARM Studios) for the first time in late October 1999. "Paradise" was also a fully formed track when Mirwaïs sent it to Madonna. "Those are live strings, arranged by Cyril Morin," he says. "This track was originally for my own album, Production. When she listened to my tracks, she absolutely wanted to sing this one. My only problem was that I wanted to include it on my own album. So it's on both my album and hers! The only difference is I did a two-bar edit on my version."

Mirwais doesn't tend to write lyrics and melodies, though, does he? Did Madonna write all of the English lyrics for this and sing the French ones that he wrote? As I said, the bulk of the melody is present in the instrumental version, so Madonna didn't do a lot in that department for this track. Still, a 33% share is significant (and shows that she doesn't just hog credit unfairly, which many people suspect and assert).

[Carta]

That's what I always assumed too. One day, when I do a Hard Candy genesis thread, you will see that while Madonna was in Tokyo for her Confessions Tour (Sept. 2006), she ran into Pharrell there and he asked if he could write her a song and she said yes. I think this is where Hard Candy - as a project - started.

Pharrell was working with Nicole Scherzinger (who may or may not be on the demo version) in the Fall of 2006 for her solo album. I can totally see Pharrell asking her "Hey, I am gonna do some tracks for Madonna, do you wanna sing on the chorus to help me give her an idea of what I want this to sound like?"

It just seems plausible to me. Of course, I wasn't there so I can't say with any certainty. However, if the track was meant for Nicole's album - why is she just singing the chorus? Wouldn't there be a demo with just her singing it? I suppose it could be for Pharrell's album, but this doesn't sound like his typical subject matter.

I think it is obvious that Pharrell had sent Madonna SOMETHING prior to actually going into the studio, as that seems to be her modus operandi - collect instrumental tracks and then decide which ones she wants to record.

This really is what the people who leaked the track asserted at the time, but since then, a lot of people have chosen not to accept that version of events (for whatever reason, mainly to discredit Madonna, though). I agree with your theory, Nightshade!

[Carta]

Indeed it is

FABULOUS, Carta

You always have some of the best info about Madonna

Thanks, loomer! I don't have much, but I do have a good memory and stuff tends to stick, so hopefully when I do post, it's reasonably useful!!

[loomer]

I love all that shyt about publishing shares. The only one I know of is that she has a 5% stake in "Love Won't Wait" suggesting minimal creative input, as it was written about in Music Week.

[howie]

Still, a 33% share is significant (and shows that she doesn't just hog credit unfairly, which many people suspect and assert).

They negotiate credits. The credits don't always reflect actual songwriting merit. All major songwriters do that.

Not to mention production credits. She always gets them and there's no chance in hell that she actually co-produces all of her songs.

Stuart Price said she "produces" by having the actual producer do a few different version and then chooses the one she likes.

[Guest Danny86]

Mirwais doesn't tend to write lyrics and melodies, though, does he? Did Madonna write all of the English lyrics for this and sing the French ones that he wrote? As I said, the bulk of the melody is present in the instrumental version, so Madonna didn't do a lot in that department for this track. Still, a 33% share is significant (and shows that she doesn't just hog credit unfairly, which many people suspect and assert).

Mirwais does sing a bit of melody and lyrics on his own album in English. I know the melody of "Paradise" is very simple but I think "fully formed" also implies the vocals with autotune and everything were already there, I think in the Music thread it was said another singer was meant to perform it. And while I don't doubt Madonna's songwriting abilities, I am convinced after "Revolver" that everything she includes on her albums will have her listed as a co-writer, and most people who write with her don't object that because being on a Madonna song guarantees more money than giving the song to another singer who doesn't want royalties. Mirwais was probably more than happy to have "featuring Madonna" listed on his CD, which gave it more hype than he could have imagined for. It is no coincidence there's only 1 song in Madonna's discography not counting covers/Evita/Dick Tracy stuff since 1985 that does not have her listed as a co-writer ("Bedtime Story"), it was only Nellee Hooper who ever had an issue with Madonna's ways. Nothing wrong with this, because Madonna always lists the original writers, so it's not "stealing", she just makes sure the most royalties are earned from her music.

[Guest Danny86]

Not to mention production credits. She always gets them and there's no chance in hell that she actually co-produces all of her songs.

Stuart Price said she "produces" by having the actual producer do a few different version and then chooses the one she likes.

Basically every producer of hers said the same, she sits there, and tells them what's good or crap, she's overseeing the process instead of letting them work alone, that's all. Stuart called that being an "old school producer", but obviously it doesn't make her an actual musician, I don't believe she ever pretended to be something more. For the 5 HC songs she's not credited because Justin took this role from her.

I'm not sure if Madonna gets additional money from being listed as a producer, I think it's just her way of showing she has control over the stuff and everything is produced and released with her approval.