William Orbit On Madonna.

[howie]

I'm not sure if Madonna gets additional money from being listed as a producer, I think it's just her way of showing she has control over the stuff and everything is produced and released with her approval.

I think, but I'm not sure, that producers get royalties when the song is played etc, but the singer doesn't, so that's why production credits are important financially.

[Glindathegood]

And while I don't doubt Madonna's songwriting abilities, I am convinced after "Revolver" that everything she includes on her albums will have her listed as a co-writer, and most people who write with her don't object that because being on a Madonna song guarantees more money than giving the song to another singer who doesn't want royalties. Mirwais was probably more than happy to have "featuring Madonna" listed on his CD, which gave it more hype than he could have imagined for. It is no coincidence there's only 1 song in Madonna's discography not counting covers/Evita/Dick Tracy stuff since 1985 that does not have her listed as a co-writer ("Bedtime Story"), it was only Nellee Hooper who ever had an issue with Madonna's ways. Nothing wrong with this, because Madonna always lists the original writers, so it's not "stealing", she just makes sure the most royalties are earned from her music.

It's actually a very common thing in the music business, and not just something Madonna does. In a lot of bands, they have an agreement that all the band members will be credited as songwriters and share in the royalties of all the songs the band records, even if say only two of the members actually wrote the song. Since they are all making money from songwriting, it keeps everyone interested in keeping the band together. There as with Madonna, if the song is on an album by a top selling band, the royalties are obviously going to me more if they gave it to some unknown or lesser artist.

[Carta]

I love all that shyt about publishing shares. The only one I know of is that she has a 5% stake in "Love Won't Wait" suggesting minimal creative input, as it was written about in Music Week.

I thought they actually wrote that one together during the "Bedtime Stories" sessions and it was one of the tracks they recorded before she decided to dump Shep and move in a different direction. He was bitter and as a bit of a trade off, she agreed to let him have a 95% stake in the song when it was offered to Gary Barlow (when the single was first released, it was credited to "Shep Pettibone/Copyright Control", indicating that the co-author couldn't be identified at the time for whatever reason). Madonna also has a 5% credit for various other titles they worked on that never made it on to "Bedtime Stories" - Tony Shimkin spoke about Shep's claim that he co-wrote "Secret" and alluded to the fact that Madonna had been very generous in eventually giving him any credit at all, since he (Tony) didn't really think it was warranted.

[Carta]

I think, but I'm not sure, that producers get royalties when the song is played etc, but the singer doesn't, so that's why production credits are important financially.

No - only the songwriter gets royalties for airplay, not the producer, nor the artist. That's why having a stake in publishing is the best way to make money in the music industry.

[Carta]

They negotiate credits. The credits don't always reflect actual songwriting merit. All major songwriters do that.

Not to mention production credits. She always gets them and there's no chance in hell that she actually co-produces all of her songs.

Stuart Price said she "produces" by having the actual producer do a few different version and then chooses the one she likes.

True, but some people are of the opinion that Madonna insists on an unfair credit, so in this case, why wouldn't she have insisted on a 50% share, since she was the big name and Mirwais was the underground artist on the fringe of major success? As for Stuart, didn't he say that Madonna is far more hands on than people give her credit for, and that although she's not at the desk twiddling the knobs, she was always sitting behind him in his apartment, telling him what she thought worked and what didn't? There's an excellent interview with him from around the time COADF was released, in which he goes into a lot of detail about how they created the album. He definitely didn't discuss the "few different versions" concept in that interview, so it was obviously a different one. He seemed quite keen to point out how hands on she is/was in the studio - she'd sit on the couch and tell him what she wanted etc. etc.

Madonna may or may not pay herself for her own production work. She'd be within her rights to claim a salary for it, but as Danny surmised, it's not something that she necessarily earns extra money for.

Regarding "Revolver", at one stage, it looked like she'd claimed a 25% share for that, but then suddenly, all of the writers came under the Warner/Chappell umbrella and it became impossible to tell what share she ended up with. She's definitely added some melodical flourishes to the final recording (e.g. the extended "I line them up and watch them faallllaaaalllaaaallll" etc.) and this was probably enough for Guy to push for some sort of credit (although I doubt it ended up being 25% - maybe 10% at best). Kind of like her 5% credit for MATM, although she added more to that track than she did to "Revolver".

[howie]

True, but some people are of the opinion that Madonna insists on an unfair credit, so in this case, why wouldn't she have insisted on a 50% share, since she was the big name and Mirwais was the underground artist on the fringe of major success?

The record companies or managers and lawyers probably oversee and negotiate the deal with the songwriters producers etc and there are probably unwritten rules in the business about how much you can give/get and under which conditions.

That's why she usually gets it with producers who are less known, and with Timbaland it was different. I'm sure Madonna is completely fair in these affairs, but personally I don't understand this idea of taking credit for someone's work.

[Carta]

The record companies or managers and lawyers probably oversee and negotiate the deal with the songwriters producers etc and there are probably unwritten rules in the business about how much you can give/get and under which conditions.

That's why she usually gets it with producers who are less known, and with Timbaland it was different. I'm sure Madonna is completely fair in these affairs, but personally I don't understand this idea of taking credit for someone's work.

There's an article floating around somewhere that says that Madonna and Steve Bray both co-wrote "Everybody" and "Ain't No Big Deal", but when they were registering the songs, they decided to take one each. How they decided who got what is unknown, but this is how "Everybody" ended up being Madonna's debut single, since Steve Bray (legitimately) gave "Ain't No Big Deal" to Barracuda to record, even though he knew Madonna was working on her own version (if they'd shared credit for the song, he wouldn't have been able to give it away from under her). Steve also said that he was surprised that Madonna wasn't credited for "Physical Attraction", because as far as he was aware, Madonna wrote it (he must have heard it before she worked with Reggie Lucas, because as everyone knows, he and Madonna fell out when she chose Mark Kamin to produce "Everybody" instead of Steve).

As I said yesterday, all interesting stuff .

[Guest Danny86]

The record companies or managers and lawyers probably oversee and negotiate the deal with the songwriters producers etc and there are probably unwritten rules in the business about how much you can give/get and under which conditions.

That's why she usually gets it with producers who are less known, and with Timbaland it was different. I'm sure Madonna is completely fair in these affairs, but personally I don't understand this idea of taking credit for someone's work.

It's not a case of popular vs not, she got a co-producing credit with Babyface and David Foster who almost never share that credit. The process with Timbaland songs was different, she interacted mostly with Justin who then took their joint ideas to Timbaland and he put the thing together with Danja and Hannon Lane and Madonna approved of the final thing, she did say he was just the "godfather" of the project or something like that.

And why are you saying she's taking credit for someone's work? Everyone contributing is listed, both writers and producers, the only time the "ghostwriting" case came up was with "Justify My Love" but that was not a Madonna composition and Ingrid Chavez sued Lenny, not Madonna. She will take the production credit because she does more in the studio than Kylie/Britney/Gwen etc, but she's never removing any of the people from the spotlight, is she?

The Shep case Carta mentioned is a special thing, it seems for a while Shep got his way with the "unfair credit" for the BS songs, but now he's no longer listed for "Secret" at Warner Chappell or ASCAP so it must have been resolved and the similarity between his demos and the BS songs must be close to zero.

[howie]

She will take the production credit because she does more in the studio than Kylie/Britney/Gwen etc, but she's never removing any of the people from the spotlight, is she?

Of course, but it's a mockery of production teams where both parties actually do things together.

What's next? Selecting the right photo for the cover and claiming photography credit?

Not to mention there are singers who contribute to their songs largely and don't claim production credit.

[loomer]

I thought they actually wrote that one together during the "Bedtime Stories" sessions and it was one of the tracks they recorded before she decided to dump Shep and move in a different direction. He was bitter and as a bit of a trade off, she agreed to let him have a 95% stake in the song when it was offered to Gary Barlow (when the single was first released, it was credited to "Shep Pettibone/Copyright Control", indicating that the co-author couldn't be identified at the time for whatever reason). Madonna also has a 5% credit for various other titles they worked on that never made it on to "Bedtime Stories" - Tony Shimkin spoke about Shep's claim that he co-wrote "Secret" and alluded to the fact that Madonna had been very generous in eventually giving him any credit at all, since he (Tony) didn't really think it was warranted.

AH, so that's what it is. Music Week assumed her creative input was minimal.

[Guest Danny86]

Of course, but it's a mockery of production teams where both parties actually do things together.

What's next? Selecting the right photo for the cover and claiming photography credit?

Not to mention there are singers who contribute to their songs largely and don't claim production credit.

But what is it a mockery of? Who said there was a strict definition about producing? If that was the case, why did the hitmakers of the 90s give credit to Madonna and say she's quite involved in the process? Or what about those bands who write and record a song together but a random person is credited as "produced by" when he didn't even make any of the actual music?

And did anyone ever in the industry ever speak up against "ghost co-producing" credit? I think it was always about writing, when Kylie and Beyonce added a line and claimed credit, it's always about things like that, or people getting robbed of writing credits (like Tony Shimkin) but not producers?

Who are those singers who contribute but don't claim credit, you speak of? Mariah does the same as Madonna.

[Carta]

Of course, but it's a mockery of production teams where both parties actually do things together.

What's next? Selecting the right photo for the cover and claiming photography credit?

Not to mention there are singers who contribute to their songs largely and don't claim production credit.

Why is it a mockery, though? All of her co-producers have commented on how hands on she is in the studio, so why should we doubt that? As I said, she's not turning the dials, but she's saying what stays in, what gets scrapped, how she wants various parts to sound, what she wants her voice to sound like, instruments she wants/doesn't want etc. etc. It's not like a Stock Aitken Waterman situation where the vocalist comes in, records their vocal and leaves. They've all said that she's very actively involved. Where's the mockery in that...? Even with something like "Nothing Fails", Jem Griffiths said that Madonna reworked the song quite a lot from the original demo, and it's noteworthy that while Madonna received a writer's credit, Mirwais didn't, so it would seem that he co-produced a song that Madonna had already reworked. I'd love to hear the "Silly Thing" demo.

[Carta]

I find the whole songwriting issue fascinating. It always interests me when people question Madonna's involvement in her work, even when her collaborators confirm how involved she is (there's the old argument that of course they're going to toe the party line, but really, why should they when they no longer work with her? It's not like she makes a habit of returning to former collaborators. Pat Leonard is the only exception and they haven't released any material since Ray of Light, even though they've worked together since).

Anyway, I'm enjoying the discussion here! I hope everyone else involved is, too Very civilised!!

[howie]

Who are those singers who contribute but don't claim credit, you speak of?

I don't think there's any use in listing names, because it will just go in the direction of the usual "how do you know? were you there??" or "he/she is no more involved than M".

But a trained musician who plays multiple instruments, and composes instrumental solos in his/her songs, yet does not claim production or co-production, is surely more of a producer than somebody who just okays a certain sound and ends up getting the credit. It's just common sense, in my opinion.

I think some people are less focused on the business/financial part of music making.

Both ways are fine, but there is a difference.

[Carta]

^ There's a difference between production and songwriting, though. In the scenario you described above, who was telling the musician what to do? If they determined the sound etc. themselves as well as writing solos etc., they should be getting a writer's credit AND a production credit. If they're getting no credit at all, more fool them, really....

[Guest Danny86]

I don't think there's any use in listing names, because it will just go in the direction of the usual "how do you know? were you there??" or "he/she is no more involved than M".

But a trained musician who plays multiple instruments, and composes instrumental solos in his/her songs, yet does not claim production or co-production, is surely more of a producer than somebody who just okays a certain sound and ends up getting the credit. It's just common sense, in my opinion.

I think some people are less focused on the business/financial part of music making.

Both ways are fine, but there is a difference.

Well it's obvious you'd get asked to back up your claims, weird you back out like that.

Are you referring to bands like U2, where the whole band is involved in all that yet only The Edge is listed with Brian Eno and such? Not sure how that works, if they wanted to, surely they could write "produced by U2". And you might find it "common sense" but it still doesn't change the fact that the industry has no issue with Madonna being called as a producer and there are no anti-movements dedicated to Madonna/Mariah/MJ/Janet being "fake" producers. I even understand your argument about there being a difference, but what can you do if more stuff are put under a certain definition?

BTW, are you in the business or something? Because I'm quite surprised at a M fan being so against her taking credit for creating music.

[Glindathegood]

I don't think there's any use in listing names, because it will just go in the direction of the usual "how do you know? were you there??" or "he/she is no more involved than M".

But a trained musician who plays multiple instruments, and composes instrumental solos in his/her songs, yet does not claim production or co-production, is surely more of a producer than somebody who just okays a certain sound and ends up getting the credit. It's just common sense, in my opinion.

I think some people are less focused on the business/financial part of music making.

Both ways are fine, but there is a difference.

I think you're confusing the difference between songwriting, playing an instrument and producing. Songwriting is about writing the lyrics and melody of the song. Also, you can play instruments in a song and not actually write any of the actual lyrics or melody of the song. Session musicians do that all the time.

Production is about creating the arrangement and "overall sound" of the song but isn't about writing the actual song. Most of the times when bands bring in an outside producer, the band members have already written the song, melody and lyrics, sometimes in just a basic way on guitar and/or keyboards. The outside producer doesn't change the lyrics or melody of the song, but works on the arrangement of the song. If you look around on youtube, you can often find original demos a band or artist has done of a song they have written. It often sounds different from the released version, although it has the same lyrics and melody, because they got a different producer who changed the arrangement.

[Guest Danny86]

The aforementioned Stuart interview where she talks about Madonna as a producer:

http://allaboutmadonna.com/madonna-interviews-articles/mixmag-december-2005

What’s she like to work with in the studio?

“She’s the greatest hands-off producer ever. Most people think producers should be pressing the buttons but she doesn’t pretend to do any of that. She sits on the couch and listens to it and tells you when you’re not being very good.”

I’ll bet she doesn’t mince her words…

“When something’s not sounding good she’ll say, ‘That’s rubbish, that’s rubbish and that’s rubbish’ and you’ll be like, ‘I know, I’m not trying to be rubbish!’. In terms of being a songwriter, she has this thing where she can turn the microphone on, open her mouth and one of those melodies comes out and you go ‘Blimey! That’s how you’ve done it!”

Another interesting quote:

“What we’re doing now is what she was doing at the start of her career. She said, ‘I used to hang around the DJs long enough to force them to make records for me’, so nothing’s changed there. When you hear her old records there’s no bullshit. On ‘Into The Groove’, if you solo the vocals you can hear the cars going by outside in Manhattan. These records weren’t manufactured pop records, She was literally going around a DJ’s house and saying ‘What’s the best music you’ve got?’ and singing over it”

[cosmic_system]

Still, Guetta is RUBBISH, RUBBISH, RUBBISH.

[Carta]

Thanks for posting those quotes, Danny!

[freddykrueger86]

Still, Guetta is RUBBISH, RUBBISH, RUBBISH.

I second that!

[MaddysMuff]

The aforementioned Stuart interview where she talks about Madonna as a producer:

http://allaboutmadon...g-december-2005

What's she like to work with in the studio?

"She's the greatest hands-off producer ever. Most people think producers should be pressing the buttons but she doesn't pretend to do any of that. She sits on the couch and listens to it and tells you when you're not being very good."

I'll bet she doesn't mince her words…

"When something's not sounding good she'll say, 'That's rubbish, that's rubbish and that's rubbish' and you'll be like, 'I know, I'm not trying to be rubbish!'. In terms of being a songwriter, she has this thing where she can turn the microphone on, open her mouth and one of those melodies comes out and you go 'Blimey! That's how you've done it!"

Another interesting quote:

"What we're doing now is what she was doing at the start of her career. She said, 'I used to hang around the DJs long enough to force them to make records for me', so nothing's changed there. When you hear her old records there's no bullshit. On 'Into The Groove', if you solo the vocals you can hear the cars going by outside in Manhattan. These records weren't manufactured pop records, She was literally going around a DJ's house and saying 'What's the best music you've got?' and singing over it"

Love this, especially the cars going by in Manhattan bit.