A Question For The Madonna Critics

[Glindathegood]

I'd say that the second half of Madonna's career has been far more interesting than the first.

I agree totally. But that's the one thing I find disappointing about HC. For the most part, it seems to be reaching back to fun and dancing 80's Madonna and ignoring her deeper more artistic periods. Now I understand I'm probably in the minority in liking the later Madonna. the general public seems hung up on Borderline and Lucky Star era Madonna. But I want to see more of the artistic deeper second half Madonna. I only saw glimpses of that on HC.

[Voguerista]

So this is about ME now? Wtf? Some people are REALLY odd.

You can say that again and I hate to tell ya,....but, it's not Danny who is the "odd" one.

[Guest ursaminorjim]

I agree totally. But that's the one thing I find disappointing about HC. For the most part, it seems to be reaching back to fun and dancing 80's Madonna and ignoring her deeper more artistic periods. Now I understand I'm probably in the minority in liking the later Madonna. the general public seems hung up on Borderline and Lucky Star era Madonna. But I want to see more of the artistic deeper second half Madonna. I only saw glimpses of that on HC.

Well, not all dance music - or music for pleasure, for that matter - is automatically lacking in depth. I loved Hard Candy because it had some of the best tunes she's had in a long time. The melodies were just consistently better than anything she'd done in ages, and the music was slinky and sexy and had great sounds (something else her music had been lacking). Sure "Candy shop" may not have the lyrical depths of some of her recent work, but I get a lot more out of feeling a physical connection to the song than I do being lectured by a billionaire about how spiritually ignorant I am.

[neutrocks]

I agree totally. But that's the one thing I find disappointing about HC. For the most part, it seems to be reaching back to fun and dancing 80's Madonna and ignoring her deeper more artistic periods. Now I understand I'm probably in the minority in liking the later Madonna. the general public seems hung up on Borderline and Lucky Star era Madonna. But I want to see more of the artistic deeper second half Madonna. I only saw glimpses of that on HC.

But don't you think she's just trying to mix it up?? I mean; I think we all can agree she doesn't stray to far from what works for her in music. However, she even has said with various albums where her head is at. I remember when she was working on CONFESSIONS... she kept saying she just wanted to have fun and dance. I felt that is what she tried to do with HARD CANDY, but brought in producers to help make it more urban. And I won't deny that she probably was hoping to aim a hit with the U.S. region. With "4 Minutes", it worked. I understand why some feel like she just went with Timabland and Timberlake in hopes to score a big hit, but I've always felt with every album she makes, she hopes to score a big hit. Who doesn't? I also don't believe she purposely puts less energy or focus on one album to another. I think with each album she attempts to make something great. Yes, her lyrics may not be as insightful than on other albums, but the Madonna I grew up on really didn't grab me as a great lyricist. I am one of those fans who just love her fun dance music as well. But with albums like LIKE A PRAYER and RAY OF LIGHT, she's proven she can really come up with some insightful and thoughtful lyrics and music. But it seems since RAY OF LIGHT, some fans have forgotten that this isn't the norm for her. The majority of her music or at least lyrics weren't always that insightful.

[Glindathegood]

I wasn't talking just about the lyrics. On albums like LAP, ROL and Confessions, she took things that were out there at the time and made them her own in a creative, artistic way. On HC, she just copied Timbaland's style and really added nothing new or Madonnaesque to it. HC could have been sung by anyone. Her first couple of albums had the same kind of anonymity to me.

[Guest waiting]

But don't you think she's just trying to mix it up?? I mean; I think we all can agree she doesn't stray to far from what works for her in music. However, she even has said with various albums where her head is at. I remember when she was working on CONFESSIONS... she kept saying she just wanted to have fun and dance. I felt that is what she tried to do with HARD CANDY, but brought in producers to help make it more urban. And I won't deny that she probably was hoping to aim a hit with the U.S. region. With "4 Minutes", it worked. I understand why some feel like she just went with Timabland and Timberlake in hopes to score a big hit, but I've always felt with every album she makes, she hopes to score a big hit. Who doesn't? I also don't believe she purposely puts less energy or focus on one album to another. I think with each album she attempts to make something great. Yes, her lyrics may not be as insightful than on other albums, but the Madonna I grew up on really didn't grab me as a great lyricist. I am one of those fans who just love her fun dance music as well. But with albums like LIKE A PRAYER and RAY OF LIGHT, she's proven she can really come up with some insightful and thoughtful lyrics and music. But it seems since RAY OF LIGHT, some fans have forgotten that this isn't the norm for her. The majority of her music or at least lyrics weren't always that insightful.

People aren't expecting Goethe from Madonna, but she has never stooped this low: "My sex is a killa..". What the hell does that even mean? Whatever, I can hardly remember how it goes..

[neutrocks]

I wasn't talking just about the lyrics. On albums like LAP, ROL and Confessions, she took things that were out there at the time and made them her own in a creative, artistic way. On HC, she just copied Timbaland's style and really added nothing new or Madonnaesque to it. HC could have been sung by anyone. Her first couple of albums had the same kind of anonymity to me.

Oh, I realize you were not just aiming at her lyrics. And I guess I can understand what you mean regarding HC sounds like an album any artist could have sung. But again, I can admit that the album was probably an effort to gain more popularity in U.S. mainstream music. Does that mean I think she put less effort or creativity in it? No. But it seems she does mix it up with every album. The album transitions since RAY OF LIGHT prove that. And as far as "Celebration", I really feel that she just was trying to re-capture the feel from her older music being "CELEBRATION" the album will be a retrospective of her whole career. I don't believe her intention was to do something totally different or greatly artistic with the song. I think she just wanted to produce a fun dance pop song. And she has!!

[Glindathegood]

People aren't expecting Goethe from Madonna, but she has never stooped this low: "My sex is a killa..". What the hell does that even mean? Whatever, I can hardly remember how it goes..

I agree. I don't expect something profound from Madonna or any pop singer. Maybe in the past her lyrics were cliched, but there were about something that people could relate to like falling in love, fighting with your partner, breaking up and getting hurt. But recently it seems her songs have nothing to do with her real life or anyone's life for that matter.

[neutrocks]

People aren't expecting Goethe from Madonna, but she has never stooped this low: "My sex is a killa..". What the hell does that even mean? Whatever, I can hardly remember how it goes..

First off... there is no official confirmation of that song being on the album. And while it is highly speculated and noted by some reputable sources, if she did include this song, you haven't heard her version, nor do you know the lyrics she used. So if you're going to continue your crusade to bash Madonna, why not back it up with actual facts, rather relying on rumors! But of course, I wouldn't expect you to like anything she does anyway.

[Guest waiting]

First off... there is no official confirmation of that song being on the album. And while it is highly speculated and noted by some reputable sources, if she did include this song, you haven't heard her version, nor do you know the lyrics she used. So if you're going to continue your crusade to bash Madonna, why not back it up with actual facts, rather relying on rumors! But of course, I wouldn't expect you to like anything she does anyway.

Well from what I READ HERE she sang it during one of the rehearsals there I'd say its pretty official.

[neutrocks]

I agree. I don't expect something profound from Madonna or any pop singer. Maybe in the past her lyrics were cliched, but there were about something that people could relate to like falling in love, fighting with your partner, breaking up and getting hurt. But recently it seems her songs have nothing to do with her real life or anyone's life for that matter.

Really? I disagree. "Miles Away" has been speculated to be about GUY'S and her relationship. And a lot of people can relate to that song, even though it never became a big hit. Though, I would have to say that she has so many songs about "falling in love, fighting with your partner, breaking up and getting hurt." Not only that, it's always the norm by most artist, so why would we want her to keep producing the same messages over and over.

At the same time, you can only write so many songs with different topics before you find yourself re-writing about the same topics. Most artists tend to stick to "love" and "relationship" topics on their songs. Then there are the songs just about having fun and enjoying the music.

[neutrocks]

Well from what I READ HERE she sang it during one of the rehearsals there I'd say its pretty official.

Ummm. Yes, some fans claimed to hear her sing about 30 seconds of what sounded like the song. But again, that doesn't verify or make anything official especially the lyrics which you are criticizing.

[Glindathegood]

Really? I disagree. "Miles Away" has been speculated to be about GUY'S and her relationship. And a lot of people can relate to that song, even though it never became a big hit. Though, I would have to say that she has so many songs about "falling in love, fighting with your partner, breaking up and getting hurt." Not only that, it's always the norm by most artist, so why would we want her to keep producing the same messages over and over.

At the same time, you can only write so many songs with different topics before you find yourself re-writing about the same topics. Most artists tend to stick to "love" and "relationship" topics on their songs. Then there are the songs just about having fun and enjoying the music.

Yes, Miles Away is about that, but it is in the minority on HC. Sorry, but I don't go out to clubs and not a party person, so I can't relate to songs about dancing to the music and getting my booty down.

I need to connect to songs on an emotional level. All there party club songs don't allow me to do that. I was saying she wrote songs about those relationship issues in the past, but that seems to be lacking on recent things such as Celebration and Revolver.

If she wants to do something different, how about some songs about hate crimes like the murders at the gay club that happened in Israel or people living with HIV. Life is not one long party, you know.

[Guest waiting]

Yes, Miles Away is about that, but it is in the minority on HC. Sorry, but I don't go out to clubs and not a party person, so I can't relate to songs about dancing to the music and getting my booty down.

I need to connect to songs on an emotional level. All there party club songs don't allow me to do that. I was saying she wrote songs about those relationship issues in the past, but that seems to be lacking on recent things such as Celebration and Revolver.

If she wants to do something different, how about some songs about hate crimes like the murders at the gay club that happened in Israel or people living with HIV. Life is not one long party, you know.

Have we already forgotten the masterpiece 'Hey You'?

[Guest waiting]

Also, while I would love for her to sing about serious themes, the sad truth is nowadays that doesn't sell. What sells is "Get my booty down" and "SEXY KILLA" type stuff... the kids just eat it up like fast food. Mainstream music has no soul anymore. I was watching the clips from VMA 1994 and 95 and actually saw musical ARTISTS there, receiving awards! GOd... nowadays its such a joke... who attends I don't even know (probably Paris Hilton) now since i don't watch but I recall Eminem getting Bruno's ass in his face. That's all.

[neutrocks]

Yes, Miles Away is about that, but it is in the minority on HC. Sorry, but I don't go out to clubs and not a party person, so I can't relate to songs about dancing to the music and getting my booty down.

I need to connect to songs on an emotional level. All there party club songs don't allow me to do that. I was saying she wrote songs about those relationship issues in the past, but that seems to be lacking on recent things such as Celebration and Revolver.

If she wants to do something different, how about some songs about hate crimes like the murders at the gay club that happened in Israel or people living with HIV. Life is not one long party, you know.

Actually, like you I am not a club person either. But I would have to say that if you can't relate to songs about "dancing to the music...", etc., that pretty much limits the songs you enjoy from Madonna, especially her 80's albums. So I am curious? Do you like her debut album and Like A Virgin? Because those songs really don't have much substantial lyrics that people can really relate to on the level you're speaking. I would say majority of TRUE BLUE is the same.

I don't oppose your suggestions where she covers topics such as "murders", etc., but how often have you heard a hit song from a pop artist that talks about hate crimes, murders, etc? Most people listening to music just want to listen music for fun and leisure.

By the way, she's touch based on your ideas with RAY OF LIGHT... especially with the song "Swim". I adore that song and always thought that would have been a great single, but the lyrics probably wouldn't have been favorable for her on pop radio.

[neutrocks]

Also, while I would love for her to sing about serious themes, the sad truth is nowadays that doesn't sell. What sells is "Get my booty down" and "SEXY KILLA" type stuff... the kids just eat it up like fast food. Mainstream music has no soul anymore. I was watching the clips from VMA 1994 and 95 and actually saw musical ARTISTS there, receiving awards! GOd... nowadays its such a joke... who attends I don't even know (probably Paris Hilton) now since i don't watch but I recall Eminem getting Bruno's ass in his face. That's all.

I have to totally agree with what I put in bold. I agree themes like that don't sell unless your some notorious rap artist. Madonna is hardly that sort of artist.

As for "mainstream music has no soul anymore"... that is an opinion that some will agree with you on, but I think that is just based on individual taste and the fact some of us are getting older and do not appreciate the newer music. It happens within every generation.

[Glindathegood]

Actually, like you I am not a club person either. But I would have to say that if you can't relate to songs about "dancing to the music...", etc., that pretty much limits the songs you enjoy from Madonna, especially her 80's albums. So I am curious? Do you like her debut album and Like A Virgin? Because those songs really don't have much substantial lyrics that people can really relate to on the level you're speaking. I would say majority of TRUE BLUE is the same.

I'm not that crazy about any of those earlier albums, but that was more forgivable then because she was younger and hadn't experienced as many things to draw on. She had had so many unique experiences and is well read. Can't she find something deeper to write about? Plus, I was younger when those came out and maybe I was content with those lyrics then, but now I want something deeper.

[LSD]

Also, while I would love for her to sing about serious themes, the sad truth is nowadays that doesn't sell. What sells is "Get my booty down" and "SEXY KILLA" type stuff... the kids just eat it up like fast food. Mainstream music has no soul anymore.

Which is why I really hope she'll do more albums like Music in the future. The album had a great blend of fun stuff like Amazing and Impressive Instant, but also had brilliant moments like Nobody's Perfect and Paradise (Not for Me). Music is hardly a song of thematic brilliance, but it's still great as a dance song and radio staple.

It's the best compromise between her lighter and more serious work.

[neutrocks]

I'm not that crazy about any of those earlier albums, but that was more forgivable then because she was younger and hadn't experienced as many things to draw on. She had had so many unique experiences and is well read. Can't she find something deeper to write about? Plus, I was younger when those came out and maybe I was content with those lyrics then, but now I want something deeper.

Ok, so I can understand where you are coming from by your explanation. But you must know that Madonna isn't that kind of artist who can just garner a hit album by releasing songs that have deep serious and profound lyrics. If you're just wanting her to forget the whole commercialism of it all, then she certainly can go that route, but I really doubt she will ever do that being she thrives to be in the eye of the public. And I don't think writing serious songs about murder and mayhem will garner that same attention then just a fun pop song.

But hey, maybe she'll just shift her focus on more deeper topics. After all, what does she have to lose? If Celebration cannot be a huge hit, when it's definitely a very friendly pop song, then I can't say that anything she produces with less substance will do any better unless it's just a fluke of the time. So why not concentrate more on her experiences and deeper topics, but I don't think the majority of fans would like that. A lot of fans didn't like where American Life went. And if she is to draw from her personal experiences and such, then that means she is going to probably rely more on Kaballism and it seems to me the majority of fans do not like that either.

Sounds like no win-win here to please everyone, so my philosophy has been... just enjoy the ride she takes us on whether it's just fun or it's deep and meaningful. After all, I can't imagine get too bent out of shape regarding someone's music career at this point after they have entertained me for more than 25 years.

One thing I do know that is consistent with Madonna... she could give a flying fuck what people think and she does what she wants. I have no doubt, she'll keep mixing the bag up.

[Ai Papi Si.]

That's very rich, coming after you saying Madonna only added a couple of lines here and there, as if you were there in the studio.

Anyway, my point was that COADF has very basic song structures, it's verse-chorus-verse-chorus-chorus-chorus-chorus and song over. Basically LIWB is "just let it be, oh let it be, won't you let it be" repeated over and over, I don't see how that songwriting holds a candle to something like "Give It 2 Me" and "She's Not Me" that contain a lot of different song sections. "Sorry", "How High" or "Forbidden Love" don't even have a bridge, I just think that's OBJECTIVELY a worse songwriting. Not to mention "Isaac" that's the laziest song ever in terms of songwriting. On HC "Miles Away" is the only thing that can come close to the repetitiveness of COADF.

Wait a minute, so you're reducing her songs to structural tidbits now? That's like saying that a book with illustrations is by definition a better quality book than one without them.

I don't see how not having a bridge is bad if we get a nice instrumental break instead. I don't see how having a verse/chorus structure is bad if hte melody is amazing. Why don't you just be honest and say that you prefer Hard Candy to Confessions because you just DO? It just sounds like you're trying to make everyone who poops on Hard Candy and glorifies Confessions look like they have a shitty grasp on what "GOOD SONGWRITING" is. That's the exact kind of snobbery that you spend 90% of your time on here fighting against.

I am very aware of people's dumb excuses for the relative thud Hard Candy was recieved with when it came out last year, and I am just as ready as you are to squash them, but your excuses for a group of people PREFERRING an album over Hard Candy are pompous as fuck. Just saying.

[Guest jamesshot]

The only thing that's universally reviled here is anyone who disagrees with you. So you take the hint. What the hell is your fucking agenda on this forum? Do you really have nothing else to do than annoy the hell out of anyone who even remotely disagrees with you. Every single post you make is a stab at the so called APOLOGIST LOONS you totally hate here. You contribute nothing to this forum other than promoting your pop princesses and provocating Madonna fans. And yes, I'm aware of the fact that now that I said that, I'm gonna be one of the FIFTY people you keep stalking on this board for your amusement. But it seems not even EVERYONE complaining about you is enough for the moderators to notice. Disgusting.

Nailed it.

[Guest Danny86]

Wait a minute, so you're reducing her songs to structural tidbits now? That's like saying that a book with illustrations is by definition a better quality book than one without them.

I don't see how not having a bridge is bad if we get a nice instrumental break instead. I don't see how having a verse/chorus structure is bad if hte melody is amazing. Why don't you just be honest and say that you prefer Hard Candy to Confessions because you just DO? It just sounds like you're trying to make everyone who poops on Hard Candy and glorifies Confessions look like they have a shitty grasp on what "GOOD SONGWRITING" is. That's the exact kind of snobbery that you spend 90% of your time on here fighting against.

I am very aware of people's dumb excuses for the relative thud Hard Candy was recieved with when it came out last year, and I am just as ready as you are to squash them, but your excuses for a group of people PREFERRING an album over Hard Candy are pompous as fuck. Just saying.

I am honest about that, even though I also love COADF. I'm just speaking out when people pretend it's the epitome of originality and brilliance and make up excuses for HC. Yes, I do prefer HC because I JUST DO, but to me there's more effort shown in the songwriting and I don't see what's snobbery in saying there was more thought in putting together the lyrics of "Devil..." or "She's Not Me" over "Sorry" or "Let It Will Be". It's still far from all the assumptions about Madonna creating music she does not like, I'd call THAT snobbery.

And sorry, but shouldn't you do something with people who actually insult others, instead trying to make it seem I'm just the same? The responses since then show I'm not.

[Ai Papi Si.]

I am honest about that, even though I also love COADF. I'm just speaking out when people pretend it's the epitome of originality and brilliance and make up excuses for HC. Yes, I do prefer HC because I JUST DO, but to me there's more effort shown in the songwriting and I don't see what's snobbery in saying there was more thought in putting together the lyrics of "Devil..." or "She's Not Me" over "Sorry" or "Let It Will Be". It's still far from all the assumptions about Madonna creating music she does not like, I'd call THAT snobbery.

And sorry, but shouldn't you do something with people who actually insult others, instead trying to make it seem I'm just the same? The responses since then show I'm not.

Well I really don't see what makes the lyrics of She's Not me or Devil better than all of Confessions because they're all really just pop songs when all is said and done, but hey suit yourself. I think a better case could be made for a song like Voices over songs on Confessions, but that's really it.

I've already banned GimmeSomeMo multiple times for his behavior. What he said to you earlier in the thread was full of his typical ranty attitude, but isn't really actionable. Most people on here don't like him and give him hell when he pisses them off. Muse and Jamesshot are right there to jump on him. What more do you want? When he pulls a bad stunt, I'd be happy to take action. But that didn't happen here.

[Guest Danny86]

Well I really don't see what makes the lyrics of She's Not me or Devil better than all of Confessions because they're all really just pop songs when all is said and done, but hey suit yourself. I think a better case could be made for a song like Voices over songs on Confessions, but that's really it.

I've already banned GimmeSomeMo multiple times for his behavior. What he said to you earlier in the thread was full of his typical ranty attitude, but isn't really actionable. Most people on here don't like him and give him hell when he pisses them off. Muse and Jamesshot are right there to jump on him. What more do you want? When he pulls a bad stunt, I'd be happy to take action. But that didn't happen here.

Well I just felt that you responding and arguing with my post seemed that you thought what I said was the bigger issue here. I know what he said was not the worst ever, but to me it seems he constantly gets away with the stupid behavior even though I already saw a lot of people complaining, not just Muse or Jamesshot, so it just doesn't add up. I don't see why moderators would be content with the majority of regulars putting someone on ignore who doesn't even hide the fact that he's only here to piss people off.

[Guest dicktracy]

People aren't expecting Goethe from Madonna, but she has never stooped this low: "My sex is a killa..". What the hell does that even mean? Whatever, I can hardly remember how it goes..

Mmm....I like to singy singy singy... like a bird on a wingy wingy wingy

Feel it in your body, sing la-de-la-da...

Shoo-be-doo ooh la la, come to me baby

[neutrocks]

Well I just felt that you responding and arguing with my post seemed that you thought what I said was the bigger issue here. I know what he said was not the worst ever, but to me it seems he constantly gets away with the stupid behavior even though I already saw a lot of people complaining, not just Muse or Jamesshot, so it just doesn't add up. I don't see why moderators would be content with the majority of regulars putting someone on ignore who doesn't even hide the fact that he's only here to piss people off.

Yep, I have to agree. In fact, I have this person on ignore myself. Anytime this person responded to me was simply to take a jab at me. And from a few quotes from others who stuck up for me, only proves he's still doing it. I figured long ago that he's best to be ignored because it seems his intention is more geared at giving people shit rather having a civil and intelligent discussion about an actual topic or appreciate Madonna.

[Guest waiting]

Mmm....I like to singy singy singy... like a bird on a wingy wingy wingy

Feel it in your body, sing la-de-la-da...

Shoo-be-doo ooh la la, come to me baby

Those are more silly/coquettish than tasteless.

[Ai Papi Si.]

Well I just felt that you responding and arguing with my post seemed that you thought what I said was the bigger issue here. I know what he said was not the worst ever, but to me it seems he constantly gets away with the stupid behavior even though I already saw a lot of people complaining, not just Muse or Jamesshot, so it just doesn't add up. I don't see why moderators would be content with the majority of regulars putting someone on ignore who doesn't even hide the fact that he's only here to piss people off.

Well Danny to be fair, people complain about a LOT of people here. Hell, people complain about Neutrocks. A lot. Plenty of people have him on ignore as well. What can we do? He's not breaking the rules. Believe me there are a lot of people on here who I just would rather see GONE but sometimes we just can't do much. I will say that the next time one of the moderators is called in to have to babysit after GimmeSomeMo then it might be the last time we have to do it, if you know what I mean. GSM is well aware of this so I would hope he knows not to push his luck.

[Guest Coked Up Baby Boy]

Hell, people complain about Neutrocks. A lot. Plenty of people have him on ignore as well.

I DON'T DOUBT THIS.