Madonna has BALLS appreciation thread

[Guest seancannon]

It just occured to me yesterday the impact of her Live To Tell segment on the Confessions Tour. The balls it took for her to incarnate herself as Jesus on the cross- in a sense mocking the religion Christ never wanted. She's in the know of how much BS Christianity is. She went to Russia and performed this and the Orthodox Christians wanted to *^&%$! her for it.

This woman has so much balls it's insane. I thought it was just a PR stunt at first, but when you examine what her point was for performing it this way, it's quite intellectual.

[Guest ursaminorjim]

I'm still not entirely sold on the reasons behind doing it. But it certainly makes a visual statement.

[Apples388]

I liked the footage behind her and the verses from the bible. It all made perfect sense in context. If you look at the picture without seeing the full performance and coupling the lyrics to the footage and Bible verses, then you definitely wouldn't get it.

[acko]

Wether it b John Lennon or Jesus...

Her own Messiah complex?

[GimmeSomeMo]

Definitely another very iconic visual moment.

[Dr Lecter]

I love the bit when the flames go up and shes off the cross and you see her profile with the flames around her

[GimmeSomeMo]

JONAS ACKERLUND I wonder what the GARDENER will do with the new one

[zephyralexxx]

You have to watch the whole segment in the concert to get it indeed as you said and the second message of it (the secondary one)...in her very own words...they can't do what I can do...yes she has BALLS. No one can do this.

[Guest Drowned Bedtime]

Her last iconic moment for me, as an artist. Like the bed and cone bra in the BA Like A Virgin... <3

[Voguerista]

This woman has so much balls it's insane. I thought it was just a PR stunt at first, but when you examine what her point was for performing it this way, it's quite intellectual.

I think there is often a more "intellectual" reason for much of her work. That's why I like to take in more than one show if I can swing it and I can't wait to see all the filmage of every performance for all the hidden messages and intellectial stuff I missed the first time. And that includes "visually" as well.

She's brilliant. I love how much thought and detail she puts into everything.

[Narendra Sen]

Yes! Madonna does have balls! I don't know how many other artists would have had the courage to do what she did (her songs, videos, performances etc.) or to express her views on sexuality (and not only) the way she did. That's why I respect her and consider her one of the greatest artists ever.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Narendra Sen

[boy skeffington]

I'm still not entirely sold on the reasons behind doing it. But it certainly makes a visual statement.

Of course you don't. You can hold onto the idea that you are somehow cool and above everything.

I wish I could have been there for the ROME show, when she was a stones throw away from the Vatican. That is balls.

I always worried about her up there...like a sitting target on that cross.

[Guest ursaminorjim]

Of course you don't. You can hold onto the idea that you are somehow cool and above everything.

Jesus, whatever.

I just honestly don't see the correlation she's making, that's all. Still - Madonna on a disco cross. Looks good.

[Guest seancannon]

Wether it b John Lennon or Jesus...

Her own Messiah complex?

I think not as she's using "other" images to garner the influence they've made...

If she had her own, she'd use her own images

[peter]

It just occured to me yesterday the impact of her Live To Tell segment on the Confessions Tour. The balls it took for her to incarnate herself as Jesus on the cross- in a sense mocking the religion Christ never wanted. She's in the know of how much BS Christianity is. She went to Russia and performed this and the Orthodox Christians wanted to *^&%$! her for it.

This woman has so much balls it's insane. I thought it was just a PR stunt at first, but when you examine what her point was for performing it this way, it's quite intellectual.

I don't think she's mocking Christianity here. Part of the Christian faith is that one is supposed to love God and love your neighbor -- and to love your neighbor by serving him or her, caring for him or her. One is to do this for Christ's sake -- in gratitude for what Christ accomplished on the cross (eternal salvation for humankind). So, effectively, you're supposed to see Christ in your neighbor when you look at him or her.

So, for Madonna to appear on a cross is an ultimate reminder to see Christ in your neighbor. If you can't see Christ crucified in Madonna when she appears like that, then that is an interesting statement about your faith, I agree. It's a challenging and provoking thought. If you read the words from the Bible (from the book of Matthew) that she uses in the video, that's what it's talking about -- how the God tells people "whatever you did to/for the least of these, my brothers, you did it to/for ME." (There was an excellent NPR story about this during the CT... A theologian or religion professor who was grateful that Madonna, as a woman, did this. This professor performed an exercise with her students each year, wherein different depictions of Christ on the cross were used -- different ethnicities. As long as it was a man, most students were fine, but when a depiction of a woman was used, that was no longer acceptable or something... Which, I understand as a matter of history -- Jesus was a man. But we should be able to see Christ in all of our neighbors -- male and female. I'll see if I can dig up the story.)

There's also some Pauline theology about all believers being crucified with Christ in our baptism. Putting to death the sinful part of ourselves that would not have us do what God wants us to do (which, again, is to love God and love our neighbor). But I don't think that's what Madonna was going for -- that's a little bit of a stretch. The connection with the Matthew text, however, is directly applicable I think, since she uses it.

"Live to Tell" was always about innocent suffering, yes? Child abuse? She's drawing a comparison between that kind of innocent suffering, and the innocent children who are suffering in Africa now. And if we're not doing anything to help, then aren't we contributing to their suffering? And aren't we called upon to help them? (And she uses not just her own words, but Jesus' words, to remind people that it's not just her own idea... and she assumes a Christ-like "pose," if you will, while she's doing it to reinforce that idea.)

I'm not sure why the cross needed to be a disco cross, but I suppose she chose aesthetics over 'historical accuracy' in this case.

I'm also not sure I agree with her choice to perform it this way 100%, because I do think it was misconstrued by people. But I understand that's not HER problem, and I also don't condemn what she did -- even though I know there are many Christians who were offended by this. I've tried to defend her to some of my friends and coworkers, but I think they just think I'm a little off my rocker. (I am a Christian and I was not offended by the performance when I saw it live. In fact, I was moved by it. But I also can see how people that would never go see her in concert would get the wrong idea, because they would never give it the chance to see/hear it all in context.)

Sean, I'm sorry to jump on you about this, but I don't think it exactly was Madonna's intent here to point out that Christianity is BS. (That statement actually kind of offends me.) Madonna seems to be about religious tolerance -- and for someone to say that one person's religion is BS is harsh. The fact is, Madonna was making an earnest and heart-felt plea to help these children. I think she wanted to make the most powerful statement she could -- and so she chose Jesus' words/exhortation, rather than her own. I think that might speak to a respect that Madonna has for Christ, rather than a disdain for the hypocrisy of His followers. (Yes, there are hypocrites in the world... I'm not denying that.) If she really felt it was BS, then why bother quoting the Bible? It was obviously part of her message. For as much as she promotes spirituality at the expense of religion and feels that religions create divisions and therefore more problems, I don't think she intends disrespect/intolerance. (Of course, because she is who she is, people will take it the wrong way no matter what...)

I liked the footage behind her and the verses from the bible. It all made perfect sense in context. If you look at the picture without seeing the full performance and coupling the lyrics to the footage and Bible verses, then you definitely wouldn't get it.

Thanks! I agree...

Jesus, whatever.

I just honestly don't see the correlation she's making, that's all. Still - Madonna on a disco cross. Looks good.

Yeah, as I mentioned above, I don't know exactly why it has to be disco-fied cross. But I do see the other correlation she's making.

[Guest seancannon]

Perhaps she was hyping the Passion Of The Christ that came out a year prior :-)

[spazz]

I don't think she's mocking Christianity here. Part of the Christian faith is that one is supposed to love God and love your neighbor -- and to love your neighbor by serving him or her, caring for him or her. One is to do this for Christ's sake -- in gratitude for what Christ accomplished on the cross (eternal salvation for humankind). So, effectively, you're supposed to see Christ in your neighbor when you look at him or her.

So, for Madonna to appear on a cross is an ultimate reminder to see Christ in your neighbor. If you can't see Christ crucified in Madonna when she appears like that, then that is an interesting statement about your faith, I agree. It's a challenging and provoking thought. If you read the words from the Bible (from the book of Matthew) that she uses in the video, that's what it's talking about -- how the God tells people "whatever you did to/for the least of these, my brothers, you did it to/for ME." (There was an excellent NPR story about this during the CT... A theologian or religion professor who was grateful that Madonna, as a woman, did this. This professor performed an exercise with her students each year, wherein different depictions of Christ on the cross were used -- different ethnicities. As long as it was a man, most students were fine, but when a depiction of a woman was used, that was no longer acceptable or something... Which, I understand as a matter of history -- Jesus was a man. But we should be able to see Christ in all of our neighbors -- male and female. I'll see if I can dig up the story.)

There's also some Pauline theology about all believers being crucified with Christ in our baptism. Putting to death the sinful part of ourselves that would not have us do what God wants us to do (which, again, is to love God and love our neighbor). But I don't think that's what Madonna was going for -- that's a little bit of a stretch. The connection with the Matthew text, however, is directly applicable I think, since she uses it.

"Live to Tell" was always about innocent suffering, yes? Child abuse? She's drawing a comparison between that kind of innocent suffering, and the innocent children who are suffering in Africa now. And if we're not doing anything to help, then aren't we contributing to their suffering? And aren't we called upon to help them? (And she uses not just her own words, but Jesus' words, to remind people that it's not just her own idea... and she assumes a Christ-like "pose," if you will, while she's doing it to reinforce that idea.)

I'm not sure why the cross needed to be a disco cross, but I suppose she chose aesthetics over 'historical accuracy' in this case.

I'm also not sure I agree with her choice to perform it this way 100%, because I do think it was misconstrued by people. But I understand that's not HER problem, and I also don't condemn what she did -- even though I know there are many Christians who were offended by this. I've tried to defend her to some of my friends and coworkers, but I think they just think I'm a little off my rocker. (I am a Christian and I was not offended by the performance when I saw it live. In fact, I was moved by it. But I also can see how people that would never go see her in concert would get the wrong idea, because they would never give it the chance to see/hear it all in context.)

Sean, I'm sorry to jump on you about this, but I don't think it exactly was Madonna's intent here to point out that Christianity is BS. (That statement actually kind of offends me.) Madonna seems to be about religious tolerance -- and for someone to say that one person's religion is BS is harsh. The fact is, Madonna was making an earnest and heart-felt plea to help these children. I think she wanted to make the most powerful statement she could -- and so she chose Jesus' words/exhortation, rather than her own. I think that might speak to a respect that Madonna has for Christ, rather than a disdain for the hypocrisy of His followers. (Yes, there are hypocrites in the world... I'm not denying that.) If she really felt it was BS, then why bother quoting the Bible? It was obviously part of her message. For as much as she promotes spirituality at the expense of religion and feels that religions create divisions and therefore more problems, I don't think she intends disrespect/intolerance. (Of course, because she is who she is, people will take it the wrong way no matter what...)

she wasnt moking christianity for sure, i love this performance and live to tell.

[peter]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhahhaha. This actually made me laugh. Dear, she wasn't going to find some two and a half thousand year old genuine crucifixion wood, was she now? Its a metaphor...not a very loose one at that but still it would be odd to use a GENUINE material than that which would fit stylistically into the rest of her work. It's like saying that Warhol made a nice print of Marilyn, but why did he print it in repitition? ahahha.

I know, I know... I'm glad you laughed. There was supposed to be a little bit of 'dry' humor in what I said there. I mean, sure she's not going to replicate a wooden cross. But I can't really give an explanation as to why she wanted a mirror-plated cross, either. I guess it reflects light -- and she refers to God as "The Light" -- so it's reflecting God and God's love? I don't know... I think maybe that's stretching it a bit too far. Which is why I settled on the slightly more amusing explanation that she just chose style over substance.

Thanks, though, for not heaping hate on me... I half expected I might get a rather dismissive response, but I have to say I was encouraged to see that wasn't the case.

[StrikeItUp]

I just honestly don't see the correlation she's making, that's all. Still - Madonna on a disco cross. Looks good.

That's cuz music is her real savior! The disco cross is just fab!

[peter]

Its just a disco cross. Its nothing too deep I imagine. The cross is the substance (thats where all the meaning is) and the disco mirrorey goodness of it all is simply her way of relaying it. Why would I heap hate on you? Fortunately there are some people left in this world with an open mind who accept that other people do have opinions. I'm glad that you are religious and I hope you are true to your faith and that it is true to you. Goes to show not all Christians have to be reactionary psychos...

That's true -- about the cross being the substance. Hadn't thought about it that way.

Sorry -- I didn't mean to insinuate that you personally would be hateful. I've just read some other threads on the forum and have seen that some people are very angry at Christians in general. And I'm not judging them for that -- I can understand that the church has shortcomings and flaws -- but seeing that has made me reluctant (on occasion) to express my perspective (for fear that I'll be misunderstood, or seen as some intolerantly religious zealot, which I don't feel that I am). Thanks again for being open-minded about it and for dealing gently with me.

[roma]

I think her intention was both. Certainly the reaction shone a light on the ignorance of most Christians. People were offended if they follow the dogma of the christian empire blindly. Those who live the true message of christ would not have been offended and actually embraced the message. Madonna has always tried to make people wake up from that blind faith where they are really under the control of men.

Edited June 18, 2009 by roma

[Guest Sephyr]

I think her intention was both. Certainly the reaction shone a light on the ignorance of most Christians. People were offended if they follow the dogma of the christian empire blindly. Those who live the true message of christ would not have been offended and actually embraced the message. Madonna has always tried to make people wake up from that blind faith where they are really under the control of men.

I agree!!! I never had a problem with her doing it! I def don't think she is mocking Christianity!!! She is a true artist in every way to me

[s@ndz]

I don't think she's mocking Christianity here. Part of the Christian faith is that one is supposed to love God and love your neighbor -- and to love your neighbor by serving him or her, caring for him or her. One is to do this for Christ's sake -- in gratitude for what Christ accomplished on the cross (eternal salvation for humankind). So, effectively, you're supposed to see Christ in your neighbor when you look at him or her.

So, for Madonna to appear on a cross is an ultimate reminder to see Christ in your neighbor. If you can't see Christ crucified in Madonna when she appears like that, then that is an interesting statement about your faith, I agree. It's a challenging and provoking thought. If you read the words from the Bible (from the book of Matthew) that she uses in the video, that's what it's talking about -- how the God tells people "whatever you did to/for the least of these, my brothers, you did it to/for ME." (There was an excellent NPR story about this during the CT... A theologian or religion professor who was grateful that Madonna, as a woman, did this. This professor performed an exercise with her students each year, wherein different depictions of Christ on the cross were used -- different ethnicities. As long as it was a man, most students were fine, but when a depiction of a woman was used, that was no longer acceptable or something... Which, I understand as a matter of history -- Jesus was a man. But we should be able to see Christ in all of our neighbors -- male and female. I'll see if I can dig up the story.)

There's also some Pauline theology about all believers being crucified with Christ in our baptism. Putting to death the sinful part of ourselves that would not have us do what God wants us to do (which, again, is to love God and love our neighbor). But I don't think that's what Madonna was going for -- that's a little bit of a stretch. The connection with the Matthew text, however, is directly applicable I think, since she uses it.

"Live to Tell" was always about innocent suffering, yes? Child abuse? She's drawing a comparison between that kind of innocent suffering, and the innocent children who are suffering in Africa now. And if we're not doing anything to help, then aren't we contributing to their suffering? And aren't we called upon to help them? (And she uses not just her own words, but Jesus' words, to remind people that it's not just her own idea... and she assumes a Christ-like "pose," if you will, while she's doing it to reinforce that idea.)

I'm not sure why the cross needed to be a disco cross, but I suppose she chose aesthetics over 'historical accuracy' in this case.

I'm also not sure I agree with her choice to perform it this way 100%, because I do think it was misconstrued by people. But I understand that's not HER problem, and I also don't condemn what she did -- even though I know there are many Christians who were offended by this. I've tried to defend her to some of my friends and coworkers, but I think they just think I'm a little off my rocker. (I am a Christian and I was not offended by the performance when I saw it live. In fact, I was moved by it. But I also can see how people that would never go see her in concert would get the wrong idea, because they would never give it the chance to see/hear it all in context.)

Sean, I'm sorry to jump on you about this, but I don't think it exactly was Madonna's intent here to point out that Christianity is BS. (That statement actually kind of offends me.) Madonna seems to be about religious tolerance -- and for someone to say that one person's religion is BS is harsh. The fact is, Madonna was making an earnest and heart-felt plea to help these children. I think she wanted to make the most powerful statement she could -- and so she chose Jesus' words/exhortation, rather than her own. I think that might speak to a respect that Madonna has for Christ, rather than a disdain for the hypocrisy of His followers. (Yes, there are hypocrites in the world... I'm not denying that.) If she really felt it was BS, then why bother quoting the Bible? It was obviously part of her message. For as much as she promotes spirituality at the expense of religion and feels that religions create divisions and therefore more problems, I don't think she intends disrespect/intolerance. (Of course, because she is who she is, people will take it the wrong way no matter what...)

AMEN. Absolutely!

[Guest seancannon]

I don't think she's mocking Christianity here. Part of the Christian faith is that one is supposed to love God and love your neighbor -- and to love your neighbor by serving him or her, caring for him or her. One is to do this for Christ's sake -- in gratitude for what Christ accomplished on the cross (eternal salvation for humankind). So, effectively, you're supposed to see Christ in your neighbor when you look at him or her.

So, for Madonna to appear on a cross is an ultimate reminder to see Christ in your neighbor. If you can't see Christ crucified in Madonna when she appears like that, then that is an interesting statement about your faith, I agree. It's a challenging and provoking thought. If you read the words from the Bible (from the book of Matthew) that she uses in the video, that's what it's talking about -- how the God tells people "whatever you did to/for the least of these, my brothers, you did it to/for ME." (There was an excellent NPR story about this during the CT... A theologian or religion professor who was grateful that Madonna, as a woman, did this. This professor performed an exercise with her students each year, wherein different depictions of Christ on the cross were used -- different ethnicities. As long as it was a man, most students were fine, but when a depiction of a woman was used, that was no longer acceptable or something... Which, I understand as a matter of history -- Jesus was a man. But we should be able to see Christ in all of our neighbors -- male and female. I'll see if I can dig up the story.)

There's also some Pauline theology about all believers being crucified with Christ in our baptism. Putting to death the sinful part of ourselves that would not have us do what God wants us to do (which, again, is to love God and love our neighbor). But I don't think that's what Madonna was going for -- that's a little bit of a stretch. The connection with the Matthew text, however, is directly applicable I think, since she uses it.

"Live to Tell" was always about innocent suffering, yes? Child abuse? She's drawing a comparison between that kind of innocent suffering, and the innocent children who are suffering in Africa now. And if we're not doing anything to help, then aren't we contributing to their suffering? And aren't we called upon to help them? (And she uses not just her own words, but Jesus' words, to remind people that it's not just her own idea... and she assumes a Christ-like "pose," if you will, while she's doing it to reinforce that idea.)

I'm not sure why the cross needed to be a disco cross, but I suppose she chose aesthetics over 'historical accuracy' in this case.

I'm also not sure I agree with her choice to perform it this way 100%, because I do think it was misconstrued by people. But I understand that's not HER problem, and I also don't condemn what she did -- even though I know there are many Christians who were offended by this. I've tried to defend her to some of my friends and coworkers, but I think they just think I'm a little off my rocker. (I am a Christian and I was not offended by the performance when I saw it live. In fact, I was moved by it. But I also can see how people that would never go see her in concert would get the wrong idea, because they would never give it the chance to see/hear it all in context.)

Sean, I'm sorry to jump on you about this, but I don't think it exactly was Madonna's intent here to point out that Christianity is BS. (That statement actually kind of offends me.) Madonna seems to be about religious tolerance -- and for someone to say that one person's religion is BS is harsh. The fact is, Madonna was making an earnest and heart-felt plea to help these children. I think she wanted to make the most powerful statement she could -- and so she chose Jesus' words/exhortation, rather than her own. I think that might speak to a respect that Madonna has for Christ, rather than a disdain for the hypocrisy of His followers. (Yes, there are hypocrites in the world... I'm not denying that.) If she really felt it was BS, then why bother quoting the Bible? It was obviously part of her message. For as much as she promotes spirituality at the expense of religion and feels that religions create divisions and therefore more problems, I don't think she intends disrespect/intolerance. (Of course, because she is who she is, people will take it the wrong way no matter what...)

How can you be offended by another person's remark about religion? It's not YOUR religion. It's everybody's religion. You're only offended if you're not secure enough with what you believe. Oh and here is some of the BS your Bible states that are incorrect. (Sorry to thrash you about this but I'm passionate about the evil Christianity has caused in this world and the hundreds of millions that have died because of it's cancerous spread around the world.)

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/don...sistencies.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/don...rgan/flaws.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/don...gan/absurd.html

[s@ndz]

I actually have no fucking idea how to read and understand the bible, but I hate it.. And I hate Christianity... Ohmm.... I wanna bash it in a thread... Ohmm... But I'd get to it slyly by praising how intellectual Madonna is... Ohmm... I'm so intellectual!... Ohmm.. Gotta make another avatar of me... Ohmm... Oh, I really didn't GET what the Live To Tell performance was about... Ohmm... But it had a mirrored cross in it and Madonna was supposed to be Jesus... Ohmm.... Yeah! Madonna was mocking Christianity... Ohmm... Gotta have my links... Ohmm....

Christianity is BS!.... Ohmm..... I hate it!.... Ohmmm.....

[Guest seancannon]

I actually have no fucking idea how to read and understand the bible, but I hate it.. And I hate Christianity... Ohmm.... I wanna bash it in a thread... Ohmm... But I'd get to it slyly by praising how intellectual Madonna is... Ohmm... I'm so intellectual!... Ohmm.. Gotta make another avatar of me... Ohmm... Oh, I really didn't GET what the Live To Tell performance was about... Ohmm... But it had a mirrored cross in it and Madonna was supposed to be Jesus... Ohmm.... Yeah! Madonna was mocking Christianity... Ohmm... Gotta have my links... Ohmm....

Christianity is BS!.... Ohmm..... I hate it!.... Ohmmm.....

Why the intimidation? I never said I hate it. I hate nothing. I just know that the "religion" is a farce. It was never intended. It's why they started "forming" the Bible 200 years after his death. Jesus was holy. He was an avatar of Krishna. I've read more than my fair share of books (Misquoting Jesus and The Sins of Scripture for example). The link only substantiate how ridiculous the Bible is. Don't you people read or do research? Wait, no.....apparently not so your response makes perfect sense.

[s@ndz]

Why the intimidation? I never said I hate it. I hate nothing. I just know that the "religion" is a farce. It was never intended. It's why they started "forming" the Bible 200 years after his death. Jesus was holy. He was an avatar of Krishna. I've read more than my fair share of books (Misquoting Jesus and The Sins of Scripture for example). The link only substantiate how ridiculous the Bible is. Don't you people read or do research? Wait, no.....apparently not so your response makes perfect sense.

Intimidation? Huh?

Well, some people unfortunately prove that reading and "researching" amounts to nothing; that knowledge of "facts" (to mean the word in loose terms) just leads to fixation on a false facet that obscures the entire picture. You've read your fair share of books, huh? And then, voila, you THINK you know. You might have read the contents of your links and was so impressed by them (no doubt as they bolster whatever prejudice you may have had already) that you forgot to think and discern. Yep, in the same way, to read the bible is to pray for discernment as you read it that, through it, you may get the WISDOM of the Word of God. The bible is NOT a compendium of corroborative factoids like it's some fucking encyclopedia. You think all Christians believe that Noah lived 900 years??

Check out an example of the lack of real thinking in the theses in your links. One questions how could the bible say that God is pleased with his creation, and then in another passage is shown to be actually displeased by it. Inconsistent! ... DUH. It's like you are pleased with having a child but at some point you are displeased with what that child does. Another one: The creation of light and its separation from dark is supposedly done in the 1st day of creation yet the bible also states that the SUN is created on the 4th day. Earth shattering inconsistency there!..Well, if they or YOU don't know your BASIC science (yep, science!), then there's nothing to say nor a point to explain, really. They are like the sites that try to disprove things like the reality of our landing on the moon: they point out "facts", yet misapprehend them; or like that funny anti-Madonna site that cries out how phony and unoriginal she is in all the things she does: so much knowledge yet so misses the point.

This has been discussed before for nth number of times in this board-- and I hope only done so in appropriate threads, but I do say again that, indeed, so many Christians while touting the bible, actually twist it to do their evil designs-- and yes, some of them were actually popes! A great many evil things IN THE NAME of Christ were done and that's FACT, no getting around that. But it says more of how UNCHRISTIAN those people really were/are to begin with. But not so talked about are all the unmeasurable good and redemptive things that Christianity and Christians have done to lift us all up. All religions are imperfect as they reflect man's imperfection. It's cool with me if there be no religion, only faith, as Christianity is NOT a religion like Catholicism or Mormonism, but a faith.

But, if a religion follows true to its faith, then it can be a vessel for communal redemption. Christianity, Islam, Kaballah, etc., in their core, IMO, believe in the sanctity of man as a creation of God or a supreme being. All of them are about love. The bible, through all its books, is ultimately distilled into the fact the God loves us, and into two principles (or commandments) as Jesus himself said: Love God above all else; and love your fellowmen as you love yourself. There's nothing ridiculous about that.

Now, believe in what you will, but don't go about saying real BULLSHIT like you don't hate anything when you've just shown how "passionate" you are about the ridiculousness of the bible and disparage it and the faith of other people. It's the same as disparaging minorities, homosexuals, and other communities. And you know what's BS also? Putting up patronizing Trojan horse threads as an excuse to diss. Go, be like Madonna and have some balls. If you want to express something, go to the Lounge and rant.

And, while at it, you may do some reflection exercises, or chants..

Ohmmm....

[Guest seancannon]

Intimidation? Huh?

Well, some people unfortunately prove that reading and "researching" amounts to nothing; that knowledge of "facts" (to mean the word in loose terms) just leads to fixation on a false facet that obscures the entire picture. You've read your fair share of books, huh? And then, voila, you THINK you know. You might have read the contents of your links and was so impressed by them (no doubt as they bolster whatever prejudice you may have had already) that you forgot to think and discern. Yep, in the same way, to read the bible is to pray for discernment as you read it that, through it, you may get the WISDOM of the Word of God. The bible is NOT a compendium of corroborative factoids like it's some fucking encyclopedia. You think all Christians believe that Noah lived 900 years??

Check out an example of the lack of real thinking in the theses in your links. One questions how could the bible say that God is pleased with his creation, and then in another passage is shown to be actually displeased by it. Inconsistent! ... DUH. It's like you are pleased with having a child but at some point you are displeased with what that child does. Another one: The creation of light and its separation from dark is supposedly done in the 1st day of creation yet the bible also states that the SUN is created on the 4th day. Earth shattering inconsistency there!..Well, if they or YOU don't know your BASIC science (yep, science!), then there's nothing to say nor a point to explain, really. They are like the sites that try to disprove things like the reality of our landing on the moon: they point out "facts", yet misapprehend them; or like that funny anti-Madonna site that cries out how phony and unoriginal she is in all the things she does: so much knowledge yet so misses the point.

This has been discussed before for nth number of times in this board-- and I hope only done so in appropriate threads, but I do say again that, indeed, so many Christians while touting the bible, actually twist it to do their evil designs-- and yes, some of them were actually popes! A great many evil things IN THE NAME of Christ were done and that's FACT, no getting around that. But it says more of how UNCHRISTIAN those people really were/are to begin with. But not so talked about are all the unmeasurable good and redemptive things that Christianity and Christians have done to lift us all up. All religions are imperfect as they reflect man's imperfection. It's cool with me if there be no religion, only faith, as Christianity is NOT a religion like Catholicism or Mormonism, but a faith.

But, if a religion follows true to its faith, then it can be a vessel for communal redemption. Christianity, Islam, Kaballah, etc., in their core, IMO, believe in the sanctity of man as a creation of God or a supreme being. All of them are about love. The bible, through all its books, is ultimately distilled into the fact the God loves us, and into two principles (or commandments) as Jesus himself said: Love God above all else; and love your fellowmen as you love yourself. There's nothing ridiculous about that.

Now, believe in what you will, but don't go about saying real BULLSHIT like you don't hate anything when you've just shown how "passionate" you are about the ridiculousness of the bible and disparage it and the faith of other people. It's the same as disparaging minorities, homosexuals, and other communities. And you know what's BS also? Putting up patronizing Trojan horse threads as an excuse to diss. Go, be like Madonna and have some balls. If you want to express something, go to the Lounge and rant.

And, while at it, you may do some reflection exercises, or chants..

Ohmmm....

First off, be smart and don't get angry. Don't get overheated with someone who is entitled to their own opinion. Don't be threatened by those links and my ideas. "The bible is NOT a compendium of corroborative factoids like it's some fucking encyclopedia. You think all Christians believe that Noah lived 900 years?" Eh, well what is interesting is that most of you do believe this B.S. and what should be an ALARM call to you Jesus Freaks is that your religion is fragmented into so many different sects it's disgusting- and NONE of your disenfranchised organizations understand the basic ethos Jesus taught, hence why there are so many varieties (I think there are 120 different Jesus blah blah religions in the world). Do you know how much the Bible speaks about hating certain ethnic groups, certain sexual orientations, AND communities? This religion is a cancer that spread through out the entire world and it even threatened to burn a man at the stake for pointing out that the Earth was not at the center of the universe. Christianity and Christ are 5 light years apart in meaning and it's people like you that perpectuate it and give people like me a substantial reason to call you nutcases for not doing your homework. Instead, you chastize those that have taking RELIGION courses, read books and asked questions. Your religion (which ever one it is in the name of Christ) is a sham. Deal with it. At least the Mormons don't hide the fact their crazy, they just label it "a new testament". If only they knew that Joseph had the same mental processing as Hitler and Charlie Manson.

[Lymon]

This is exactly why I love Madonna. She isn't afraid to make a statement and use taboo means to get it across. The Live to Tell performance was pitch perfect, and she wasn't mocking Christianity. It was a huge highlight of the Confessions Tour, a very powerful performance with a huge statement behind it. She is the Queen.

[peter]

Wow.

Sean, I remember you from Madonnawebforum, and I think I'm recalling correctly that you do great artwork (paintings, if I don't have you confused with someone else). I respect you as a human being. I say this so you'll know that I'm not just being a jerk here. But I have to say I'm disappointed in the way you're speaking to/about me. To assume that I don't read or that I'm illiterate is just condescending and preposterous. I'm not even going to toot my own horn academically to prove myself as a well-educated person.

I don't appreciate your tone. I'm not calling your religion BS or a cancer. I'd appreciate it if you didn't sling mud at mine. And while you can attribute evils to Christianity, one can also attribute evils to many/most of the world's religions. Human beings make mistakes; human beings are not perfect. Just because one Christian doesn't live up to ideals/expectations, that doesn't mean you throw out the baby along with the bathwater. The fact that your religion has a viewpoint/explanation on who Christ is/was is interesting and telling. We may not agree on who Jesus was and what He came here to accomplish, but I find it interesting that you can acknowledge His existence, and feel a need to explain Him in the context of your religion.

Oh, and the fact that I take offense at your remark says nothing about my security or insecurity in my own beliefs. I think most people don't appreciate when someone refers to something that's important to them as excrement. That's insensitive. It's one thing to be dismissive. It's another to be insulting. It's fine, of course, for you to have your opinion. But we do have a responsibility to deal gently with our neighbors in the world, I think. I hope you'd agree. (And you may find that some others in the world might react violently if you were to call their religion BS. I guess it's okay to say that to Christians because we're supposed to turn the other cheek, right? But I wonder how some followers of other major world religions might react if you said something similarly inflammatory about their religion...)

I'm not getting further into this argument except to say that I hope you'll think twice before you criticize and exude negativity.

If Madonna spit on the cross and flipped her middle finger at it (gestures she performs elsewhere in the CT), I'd say maybe you had a point about mockery. But her performance is solemn, somber, and heartfelt. I'm sorry, but I think you're off base, and you're projecting your own feelings about Christianity onto Madonna's performance.