Lucky guy Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I'm a Kylie fan but she has been boring me for the last few years and just out of disinterest I stoped going to Say Hey. I would think if you're unhappy or disinterested in something it would just 'fall by the way' after a while. I can't imagine posting about the X album every day. But I'm also of the mindset that if everyone else thinks X is a great album I'm happy they are enjoying it! I thought you'd replied very fast to have read and assimilated what I'd written and formed a coherent response. I should have guessed that you'd in fact skip reading my post at all, and reply with some bizarre and completely irrelevant stock Madonna-police drivel as per usual. I won't bother reiterating what I wrote, which if I'm not mistaken contains no criticism of Madonna or her recent musical output, but was a general point about music videos. If you do want to give yourself some more time to respond to the actual argument contained therein, I'm more than happy to put this utter shit I quoted down to an unfortunate tourettes-like reflex action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camacho Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernatural Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I thought you'd replied very fast to have read and assimilated what I'd written and formed a coherent response. I should have guessed that you'd in fact skip reading my post at all, and reply with some bizarre and completely irrelevant stock Madonna-police drivel as per usual. I won't bother reiterating what I wrote, which if I'm not mistaken contains no criticism of Madonna or her recent musical output, but was a general point about music videos. If you do want to give yourself some more time to respond to the actual argument contained therein, I'm more than happy to put this utter shit I quoted down to an unfortunate tourettes-like reflex action. you were debating about Pud saying if he didn't like what someone was doing he wouldn't be around, so I just gave an example of someones output boring me off their fan board to back Pud a bit... what's the problem did I miss something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai Papi Si. Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 ^ I think he made himself pretty clear Supernatural. Leave the pseudo-fan psychiatry at the door because he's right, it was not asked for. And to be perfectly honest I am tired of it derailing valid discussions like this one. Drop it please, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pud Whacker Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 i think this thread should be pinned. it comes up every month and seems to be the general consensus and at 7 pages - really it could go on and on like the picture thread. it also pretty much sums up the 'madonna fan' today. xo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapple Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 wow...so many losers on this board. still, deep down they know lady bifida will never be 1/1000000 of what madonna is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip The Switch Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 i think this thread should be pinned. it comes up every month and seems to be the general consensus and at 7 pages - really it could go on and on like the picture thread. it also pretty much sums up the 'madonna fan' today. xo and the M creativity of these days. Zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapple Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 and the M creativity of these days. Zero. yet it's still more than lady bifida's will ever be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nothingfails0603 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 It's sad people hate Gaga so much because they think it's traitorous to Madonna. Remember when Babs fans wrote Entertainment Weekly in the late 90's and were talking about how M was a passing fad next to Streisand? Didn't they look like bitter old queens who are afraid to move with the world and not realizing that liking Madonna was not going to take anything away from Babs? Old is only a state of mind and why would anyone choose that. If you still jam out to SAW and Expose yet you just won't listen to Lady Gaga and co, you are choosing to be old. If you'd like her in 1988, why not like her in 2009? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip The Switch Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 It's sad people hate Gaga so much because they think it's traitorous to Madonna. Remember when Babs fans wrote Entertainment Weekly in the late 90's and were talking about how M was a passing fad next to Streisand? Didn't they look like bitter old queens who are afraid to move with the world and not realizing that liking Madonna was not going to take anything away from Babs? Old is only a state of mind and why would anyone choose that. If you still jam out to SAW and Expose yet you just won't listen to Lady Gaga and co, you are choosing to be old. If you'd like her in 1988, why not like her in 2009? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Most rational people don't think that a Madonna fan liking GaGa is traitorous. They may, however, still view Madonna as their #1 artist. The disturbing part comes in when people feel the need to 'dethrone' Madonna and have avatars/signatures gleefully pronouncing her death at the hands of GaGa and crowning GaGa the Queen of Pop. (Interesting how she ascends the throne without having to occupy the pesky 'Princess of Pop' rung of the ladder like Britney, Christina, et al., have had to do for what, I'm sure to them, must have seemed like an eternity in pop purgatory.) Considering this is a Madonna community, I don't find it surprising that some react negatively to such (slightly offensive) exaggerations. I'm not knocking GaGa, but I find it odd that an act who is very 'of the moment' right now is also simultaneously dubbed 'classic.' Last time I checked you had to earn that kind of reputation with more than 1.5 albums. The comparisons (and premature/wrong declarations of victory) are imbalanced. GaGa's got a long way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrolito Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 It's sad people hate Gaga so much because they think it's traitorous to Madonna. Remember when Babs fans wrote Entertainment Weekly in the late 90's and were talking about how M was a passing fad next to Streisand? Didn't they look like bitter old queens who are afraid to move with the world and not realizing that liking Madonna was not going to take anything away from Babs? Old is only a state of mind and why would anyone choose that. If you still jam out to SAW and Expose yet you just won't listen to Lady Gaga and co, you are choosing to be old. If you'd like her in 1988, why not like her in 2009? I don't think anyone is in here hating on Gaga just because she's not Madonna. Good music is good music no matter who is doing it, as far as I'm concerned. Your statement that those people who refuse to listen to her are choosing to be old, is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. People have every right to not like her music, and it doesn't make them fucking old, and out of touch. Perhaps they just don't like her music. Contrary to popular opinion around here....not everyone does. And what does 1998 have to do with anything? Gaga wasn't around making music then, and if she was, there's no way of knowing whether she would have even been popular. Again...loony. This thread is about the perceived lack of creativity in Madonna's current videos, but there can be no legit discussion or debate of that, when Gaga loons (who currently run this forum) invade every Madonna thread to heap praises on her artistic brilliance, and trash talk Madonna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nothingfails0603 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Most rational people don't think that a Madonna fan liking GaGa is traitorous. They may, however, still view Madonna as their #1 artist. The disturbing part comes in when people feel the need to 'dethrone' Madonna and have avatars/signatures gleefully pronouncing her death at the hands of GaGa and crowning GaGa the Queen of Pop. (Interesting how she ascends the throne without having to occupy the pesky 'Princess of Pop' rung of the ladder like Britney, Christina, et al., have had to do for what, I'm sure to them, must have seemed like an eternity in pop purgatory.) Considering this is a Madonna community, I don't find it surprising that some react negatively to such (slightly offensive) exaggerations. I'm not knocking GaGa, but I find it odd that an act who is very 'of the moment' right now is also simultaneously dubbed 'classic.' Last time I checked you had to earn that kind of reputation with more than 1.5 albums. The comparisons (and premature/wrong declarations of victory) are imbalanced. GaGa's got a long way to go. I know what you're saying but it seems like a lot of people hate Gaga because she can't ever compete with Madonna. Why must every artist have to compete with someone with 25 years under their belt? Why not try to enjoy Gaga for who she is instead of going "well, Paparazzi isn't Material Girl, Bad Romance isn't Express Yourself" and try to enjoy Gaga for what she is, instead of unfairly judging a one-year career next to a 25 year one. Gaga is good for what she is and I don't see why people think she's some sort of "threat" to Madonna. It's just as bad as those Babs queens who even a decade into Madonna's career were quick to talk about how Madge was just a passing fad next to the real star. I am sure there are Babs fans out there who still feel that way because 25 years isn't 45 years.... and those people look sad to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrolito Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Most rational people don't think that a Madonna fan liking GaGa is traitorous. They may, however, still view Madonna as their #1 artist. The disturbing part comes in when people feel the need to 'dethrone' Madonna and have avatars/signatures gleefully pronouncing her death at the hands of GaGa and crowning GaGa the Queen of Pop. (Interesting how she ascends the throne without having to occupy the pesky 'Princess of Pop' rung of the ladder like Britney, Christina, et al., have had to do for what, I'm sure to them, must have seemed like an eternity in pop purgatory.) Considering this is a Madonna community, I don't find it surprising that some react negatively to such (slightly offensive) exaggerations. I'm not knocking GaGa, but I find it odd that an act who is very 'of the moment' right now is also simultaneously dubbed 'classic.' Last time I checked you had to earn that kind of reputation with more than 1.5 albums. The comparisons (and premature/wrong declarations of victory) are imbalanced. GaGa's got a long way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nothingfails0603 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 I don't think anyone is in here hating on Gaga just because she's not Madonna. Good music is good music no matter who is doing it, as far as I'm concerned. Your statement that those people who refuse to listen to her are choosing to be old, is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. People have every right to not like her music, and it doesn't make them fucking old, and out of touch. Perhaps they just don't like her music. Contrary to popular opinion around here....not everyone does. And what does 1998 have to do with anything? Gaga wasn't around making music then, and if she was, there's no way of knowing whether she would have even been popular. Again...loony. the 1988 comment wasn't directed to anyone in here, but a gay queen I knew who annoyed me with how much he would always talk shit about any "current" pop star (and we're talking pop stars who go back as far as Mariah and other stuff from the early 90's). He still clings to SAW music and Expose and Jody Watley and whatever else was popular when he was in high school.... but he refuses to even give Gaga or the like the time of day when I honestly think if he got off his "this wasn't my era" kick would love them. If you love Jody (and I like her and we've written back and forth in emails), what is it about Rihanna you'd hate? If you love old Janet and Whitney, what do you hate about Beyonce? If you love Expose, what do you hate about Gaga? If you like SAW shit, why do you hate today's younger dance artists? IMO, the guy was basically choosing to be old by refusing to acknoledge anything that came after 1989 to be decent... and I don't mean old in age since he's only like 36, but old mentally because he's as stubborn as a 63 year old hippie who hates all post-Woodstock music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nothingfails0603 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Regarding my last post. I still love the music I grew up on as a kid in the 80's as well. But the difference with me and this other guy (who doesn't post here) is that I don't feel like I'm betraying my youth if I enjoy something current that is actually popular (he actually does like some extremely niche gay music that doesn't sell to more than 10 people). I was a little kid and remember adoring Madonna and Cyndi in 1985, and I still follow them today, but I don't feel like enjoying Gaga and Rihanna is some sort of a slap in the face to Madonna and Cyndi for being part of a different generation like this guy does. I can put on some old Culture Club music and then listen to something that's a year old and I don't feel at all like I'm selling out by liking something that came out after I reached a certain age. I love my old-school music but the world keeps turning and there's still good music being made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrolito Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 the 1988 comment wasn't directed to anyone in here, but a gay queen I knew who annoyed me with how much he would always talk shit about any "current" pop star (and we're talking pop stars who go back as far as Mariah and other stuff from the early 90's). He still clings to SAW music and Expose and Jody Watley and whatever else was popular when he was in high school.... but he refuses to even give Gaga or the like the time of day when I honestly think if he got off his "this wasn't my era" kick would love them. If you love Jody (and I like her and we've written back and forth in emails), what is it about Rihanna you'd hate? If you love old Janet and Whitney, what do you hate about Beyonce? If you love Expose, what do you hate about Gaga? If you like SAW shit, why do you hate today's younger dance artists? IMO, the guy was basically choosing to be old by refusing to acknoledge anything that came after 1989 to be decent... and I don't mean old in age since he's only like 36, but old mentally because he's as stubborn as a 63 year old hippie who hates all post-Woodstock music. He sounds like a MORON, and I hope you told him that. Great music has no sell by date I actually enjoy Gaga, and think she's really talented. Some of her overzealous super loons need to chill with the Madonna comparisons though. It's really the kiss of death to any new female performer. If she is to ever sustain a lasting career, beyond airplay hits, and flashy videos, she will have to carve out her own identity, and bring something all her own to the table. Madonna will always be the Madonna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nothingfails0603 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 He sounds like a MORON, and I hope you told him that. Great music has no sell by date I actually enjoy Gaga, and think she's really talented. Some of her overzealous super loons need to chill with the Madonna comparisons though. It's really the kiss of death to any new female performer. If she is to ever sustain a lasting career, beyond airplay hits, and flashy videos, she will have to carve out her own identity, and bring something all her own to the table. Madonna will always be the Madonna. oh, he's a total moron. He stopped talking to me because I said I don't like Kylie's pre-94 music as much as her latter stuff when he thinks SAW is the beginning and end of good music and that she's never topped her first two albums. LOL!! I agree that Gaga in 2009 is nothing on Madonna in the 1980's, but at the same time, Madonna's one of those once-in-a-lifetime superstars like MJ, The Beatles, Elvis, Prince and Streisand that may be imitated a lot but never duplicated. Another "Madonna" is never going to happen and it's high time the media finally accepts that there's going to be another her the day there's another Beatles. I admit at my age that Gaga or Beyonce may not quite excite me the way Madonna or Janet did when I was younger, but I still enjoy their music and am glad they've both gotten as big as they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madlover033003 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Music videos are commercials for songs. Their budget is split between artist and record company in hopes of selling a song or album. Videos became expensive and artistic once MTV became more selective in what they would play. They are sorta rendered pointless if there is no audience exposed to them. As for the one or two names being thrown around for making good videos (that there are only one or two names says it all) those people are in their prime. Shes a multimillionaire. She can use some that tour money and make a good video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 I know what you're saying but it seems like a lot of people hate Gaga because she can't ever compete with Madonna. Why must every artist have to compete with someone with 25 years under their belt? Why not try to enjoy Gaga for who she is instead of going "well, Paparazzi isn't Material Girl, Bad Romance isn't Express Yourself" and try to enjoy Gaga for what she is, instead of unfairly judging a one-year career next to a 25 year one. Gaga is good for what she is and I don't see why people think she's some sort of "threat" to Madonna. It's just as bad as those Babs queens who even a decade into Madonna's career were quick to talk about how Madge was just a passing fad next to the real star. I am sure there are Babs fans out there who still feel that way because 25 years isn't 45 years.... and those people look sad to me. I sense your frustration, and I'm sorry... I'm glad you enjoy all music, old and new. I think the friction arises because some people think GaGa can claim Madonna's title without even competing. You're conceding that just because of history and chronology, GaGa can't compete with Madonna -- and to a great extent, that's the way it is. But some think GaGa can and does compete with Madonna, and that she's beaten her handily (again, with less than two albums). That's just ludicrous. Until we get some distance from 2008-2009, we'll never really know how it all measures up. Some hits get dated really quickly, and others just get better and more relevant with time. (I'm not predicting that GaGa's hits won't stand up over time -- I'm just saying it's hard to know that what is popular today will still be meaningful tomorrow. "Macarena" was popular at one time, too.) To be clear, I'm not dismissing GaGa -- I'm just saying the jury's still out on whether she is a fad or whether she has staying power to leave a truly long-lasting legacy (or whether it will be a flash in the pan). Think of it this way -- if we're feeling generous, The Fame Monster EP is akin to Madonna's Like a Virgin album. If GaGa pulls out a True Blue AND a Like a Prayer, then we can start talking about her position in the pop pantheon. Until then, she's made some fun dance music and has worn some amusing outfits and filmed some video spectacles that make good eye candy. Nothing terribly unimpressive about that, and I don't think that's shortchanging her. If more GaGa fans enjoyed her for what she is, rather than prematurely dubbing her the Queen of Pop, I think we'd have less conflict about this. I don't recall anyone calling Justin Timberlake the King of Pop just because he had a similar style to MJ and enjoyed a great deal of success. (And MJ did precious little to keep the King of Pop title for the better part of the last decade of his life. No disrespect intended -- I'm just saying, it's a little odd Madonna has to fight a battle for a title that belongs to a veteran, not an ingenue.) For the record, I never really thought of Barbra Streisand as the Queen of Pop. Maybe I'm just too young for that, though. I mean, she's always been a respected singer (and to some extent actress) -- but I'd say she and Madonna occupy different spheres. (Perhaps that particular battle you referred to was over the role of Evita or something? I can't think of another reason Babs' fans would be so bitter about Madonna.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madlover033003 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip The Switch Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 The title should be changed to EXCUSES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Danny86 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Most rational people don't think that a Madonna fan liking GaGa is traitorous. They may, however, still view Madonna as their #1 artist. The disturbing part comes in when people feel the need to 'dethrone' Madonna and have avatars/signatures gleefully pronouncing her death at the hands of GaGa and crowning GaGa the Queen of Pop. (Interesting how she ascends the throne without having to occupy the pesky 'Princess of Pop' rung of the ladder like Britney, Christina, et al., have had to do for what, I'm sure to them, must have seemed like an eternity in pop purgatory.) Considering this is a Madonna community, I don't find it surprising that some react negatively to such (slightly offensive) exaggerations. I'm not knocking GaGa, but I find it odd that an act who is very 'of the moment' right now is also simultaneously dubbed 'classic.' Last time I checked you had to earn that kind of reputation with more than 1.5 albums. The comparisons (and premature/wrong declarations of victory) are imbalanced. GaGa's got a long way to go. Well said! And same thing for the videos, I don't get why an artist who made 5-6 videos gets compared to Madonna who has made 60 so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 I have to say that its not all bad...Hung Up, Sorry and 4 Minutes are great videos and she did great in them. I even thought the live Miles Away vdeo was brilliantly done, it really shoulda been released around the time of the single! Still not a fan of Give it 2 Me or Celebration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest valhum Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 The title should be changed to EXCUSES. cabron! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nothingfails0603 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 I sense your frustration, and I'm sorry... I'm glad you enjoy all music, old and new. I think the friction arises because some people think GaGa can claim Madonna's title without even competing. You're conceding that just because of history and chronology, GaGa can't compete with Madonna -- and to a great extent, that's the way it is. But some think GaGa can and does compete with Madonna, and that she's beaten her handily (again, with less than two albums). That's just ludicrous. Until we get some distance from 2008-2009, we'll never really know how it all measures up. Some hits get dated really quickly, and others just get better and more relevant with time. (I'm not predicting that GaGa's hits won't stand up over time -- I'm just saying it's hard to know that what is popular today will still be meaningful tomorrow. "Macarena" was popular at one time, too.) To be clear, I'm not dismissing GaGa -- I'm just saying the jury's still out on whether she is a fad or whether she has staying power to leave a truly long-lasting legacy (or whether it will be a flash in the pan). Think of it this way -- if we're feeling generous, The Fame Monster EP is akin to Madonna's Like a Virgin album. If GaGa pulls out a True Blue AND a Like a Prayer, then we can start talking about her position in the pop pantheon. Until then, she's made some fun dance music and has worn some amusing outfits and filmed some video spectacles that make good eye candy. Nothing terribly unimpressive about that, and I don't think that's shortchanging her. If more GaGa fans enjoyed her for what she is, rather than prematurely dubbing her the Queen of Pop, I think we'd have less conflict about this. I don't recall anyone calling Justin Timberlake the King of Pop just because he had a similar style to MJ and enjoyed a great deal of success. (And MJ did precious little to keep the King of Pop title for the better part of the last decade of his life. No disrespect intended -- I'm just saying, it's a little odd Madonna has to fight a battle for a title that belongs to a veteran, not an ingenue.) For the record, I never really thought of Barbra Streisand as the Queen of Pop. Maybe I'm just too young for that, though. I mean, she's always been a respected singer (and to some extent actress) -- but I'd say she and Madonna occupy different spheres. (Perhaps that particular battle you referred to was over the role of Evita or something? I can't think of another reason Babs' fans would be so bitter about Madonna.) I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Gaga suddenly came out with one album and she's "the new Madonna". A new Madonna is never going to happen, just like there's never going to be a new Beatles or new Michael Jackson and so forth. At the same time, I'm very impressed someone like her has had the amount of success she's had in such a short time because a few years back dance/pop was so DOA on US radio (this was before Rihanna and Beyonce began to get more "pop" and before BEP went electro, etc...) that it seemed like Britney was sadly the last of a dying breed, and yet today Gaga is one of pop's most popular princesses. In 2004 she would've never had US success, so I think a lot of gay dance fans cling to her because she's "our" first diva to really come along and completely break into the mainstream since the days of Madonna and Cyndi's initial burst onto the scene (Britney and Christina in 1999 were more Miley than gay icon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subhuman Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I see very few parallels between Madonna and GaGa. All of this "new Queen of Pop" business is all a bit unwarranted and premature, however to each his own. I attribute this to the fact that GaGa is rather interesting for the moment, very "Flavor of the Month" especially considering Madonna is probably at her most boring/uninspired she's been in her entire career. I've always found GaGa to be the hybrid of Gwen Stefani and Aguilera in the vocal department, with the eccentricites of RóisÃn Murphy as far as fashion goes. I personally think the girl has talent on some level, but the music she's making could be by anyone. Overall she gets points for attempting to be different and knowing how to get people talking, though she comes across as a bit desperate overall IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loomer Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I see very few parallels between Madonna and GaGa. All of this "new Queen of Pop" business is all a bit unwarranted and premature, however to each his own. I attribute this to the fact that GaGa is rather interesting for the moment, very "Flavor of the Month" especially considering Madonna is probably at her most boring/uninspired she's been in her entire career. I've always found GaGa to be the hybrid of Gwen Stefani and Aguilera in the vocal department, with the eccentricites of RóisÃn Murphy as far as fashion goes. I personally think the girl has talent on some level, but the music she's making could be by anyone. Overall she gets points for attempting to be different and knowing how to get people talking, though she comes across as a bit desperate overall IMO. TRUTH Someone should change the thread title to Another Thread About Gaga, cause it's went way off course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loomer Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 It's sad people hate Gaga so much because they think it's traitorous to Madonna. Remember when Babs fans wrote Entertainment Weekly in the late 90's and were talking about how M was a passing fad next to Streisand? Didn't they look like bitter old queens who are afraid to move with the world and not realizing that liking Madonna was not going to take anything away from Babs? Old is only a state of mind and why would anyone choose that. If you still jam out to SAW and Expose yet you just won't listen to Lady Gaga and co, you are choosing to be old. If you'd like her in 1988, why not like her in 2009? I love all your analogies about acts of yesteryear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pud Whacker Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 i find it laughable that if we dont dig joanne it has something to do with our feelings toward madonna? WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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