Kurt420
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Posts posted by Kurt420
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Maybe it's because Madonna is no longer married, has relocated, works excessive hours, tours, etc and therefore *appears* to not be able to give a child from another country a stable family life.
This was your first post in relation to the decision. It is quite clear why you support the judges ruling. All this talk about "she should immerse herself in the culture" will not change any of the above things you posted.
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It's absurd to think Madonna should uproot her family to live in a place like Malawi. It could be downright dangerous for her and her family to live in a place like that. Besides that, is it typical for a person that wants to adopt a child from another country to have to live in that country for 2 years before adopting? I don't recall Angelina living in the countries she adopted her children from. Shouldn't she have FULLY IMMERSED herself in that culture before taking little Maddox home? People say Americans have too much pride, it sounds like these high officials in Malawi suffer from the same "disease" and therefore are unable to make the RIGHT decision because they are simply being stubborn and trying to prove some sort of point. It's disgusting they act as if nothing is wrong in their country and sweep everything under the rug. Let's check back with Mercy in 10 years.....any bets that she will even be alive and if she is.....bets that she will be happy and flourishing? Not trying to sound ugly and regardless of what happens I certainly hope she has a full, beautiful life ahead of her but they are certainly "shooting her in the foot" by keeping her in that sewer pit of a country.
I'm just baffled that ANYBODY could support this judge's ruling. Talk about not seeing the big picture.
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Lola is such a LADY!
I will never understand the hate she gets. Here she is, assuring a good life to kids in need, doing MORE than all of us could do together, taking her time to contribute to a noble cause, but still, she's an attention-seeking-recently-divorced-aging tramp!
Listen.....unless a terrible tragedy happens where she is a victim (god forbid) then this is how she will be treated even when she's doing something good. Even her horse riding accident didn't gain much sympathy, in fact even some of her own diehard fans claim it was all a hoax and it was just downtime for surgery. So there you have it....no matter what she will always pay for her reputation as a "sexpot" and her reputation as a strong as steel woman who hardly ever let's anything get in the way of what she wants.
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It is a crime how little airplay HU got during it's run on the charts. And I'm always surprised at how low Like A Virgin ranks in recurring airplay being that it's one of her bona fide "classics".
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And I will add that I've said on here a few times that I didn't consider Hard Candy a flop at all. It started out pretty well. Once Give It 2 Me dropped it nosedived as expected, but I think that's more an issue of the wrong song and the abandoning of the project more than people disliking it. I've actually noticed that some people who didn't care for Madonna in the last 10 years enjoyed this album, which is cool. I don't think she made a barrage of new fans with this album though, which is what I'm gleaning from some people here. Young fans pop up around EVERY album release. I've been posting on Marge forums since 2002, it's been the same each time, even with American Life. Hell, I was only 16 when that album was released and I loved it.
*fannyfarts away*
I agree with everything you say here. I don't mean to say she made a BARRAGE of new fans, I'm just saying HC was a hit and held it's own. It's just irritating seeing some go on about how it was a flop and a mistake/damaged her career and image.....which is just not the case.
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I seriously fail to see where HC was this huge blockbuster. 700k in the US still isn't that impressive even in this day and age, especially considering it failed to sell half what her previous album did with zero airplay. IMO, that makes it just a step above American Life in terms of success.
There is no reason why Give It 2 Me wasn't a Don't Tell Me in regards of success next to 4 Minutes' Music. 4M should've been like Moo's We Belong Together and become a catalyst to a career renaissance (all of those flop singles off K=FC2 got more airplay than any Madonna single in the past 5 years barring 4 Minutes) and not just some one-off comeback hit like Believe was to Cher.
HC wasn't a huge blockbuster. It was simply a hit album for her. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't think she's had a true blockbuster since True Blue in the US. NONE of her albums from LAP on were the biggest sellers of the year in the US as the ones prior to it were. Madonna's US blockbuster days of sales in the US have loooong passed. Even Music's 3 million was a far cry from the 10 million+ sales that the "hot" stars like Britney, N'Sync and Eminem were selling at the time, yet we didn't run around screaming flop about that. Music had 2 major hit songs on it yet it could "only" shift 3 million, 1 million less than ROL which had one bonafide US radio smash in Frozen. When Music came out, album sales were stronger, she was getting radio airplay than she had in ages, so is it a reflection of the quality that it "only" shifted 3 million when it should've done more than ROL all things considered?
Madonna has never really went anywhere to have to do a Cher like comeback. She's had top ten songs every few years in the US. Cher on the hand would go YEARS without having hit songs despite releasing music. Madonna has never had to deal with that really. Even AL had DAD on it....thankfully! lol
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This is when your argument becomes especially irritating. People could make just as much fun of us for liking Madonna, just to let you know.
I like Britney myself. For totally different reasons from Madonna. I also like NIN. For totally different reasons from Madonna. What does ANY of that have to do with this argument? You could insert anyone's name in place of Britney and say "ugh, you like them, how can you say anything about this album?" No one's trying to say that their taste in music is better than yours. I think people are more curious about why there's so much animosity when the subject of this album is brought up - especially from you guys's end!
I was just using that as an example and trust me I do realize that "real music" fans probably lump Madonna in with the other whores. Are they right? Is Madonna essentially a decent writer without any REAL musical talent? What makes them wrong? That's a debate that's worth debating, they could come up with a good argument. Not that I agree with it, I think "music" is broader than just organic instruments. However screaming "flop flop flop" for over a year about an album that wasn't just because you don't like it, does not = FLOP. There is no argument. We could argue about how each of perceive the quality to be for the rest of our lives. The fact remains though, it wasn't detrimental to her career, it was a hit and people liked it or it would've had the same fate as AL.....which the general consensus amongst the public and many diehards was it simply wasn't that good. And it reflected in the sales, reviews and endurance of that album on WW charts. Why I have to make this so black and white for people to grasp I don't understand.
All I've done in this thread is say the facts, I don't think much of my actual opinion of the music has come up much in this thread. I'm curious why you label the album a flop on the basis you don't like it. Stats aren't an indicator of quality but they are a barometer of success for an album. HC wasn't a flop yet you guys scream she flopped. She didn't. That's all I'm saying. That's all I've ever been saying.
I think Circus is subpar to Blackout. So if I run around and scream "flop flop flop" does that REALLY make it a flop? Or does it mean *I* just don't care for it as much as Blackout? After all, thus far it's "only" sold a few hundred thousand more copies WW than her "flop" Blackout and I actually think reviews for Blackout were better (or about equal) than they were for Circus. But because (as always) her people and MTV decided to orchestrate her "big comeback" early, screaming since she won her fake moonmen last August "this IS a comeback! This IS a comeback" then it's seen as just that....A HUGE COMEBACK. When in reality Blackout was never a major flop anyways. It's just funny and hypocritical to me that's why I use Britney as an example. Womanizer wasn't as big WW as 4M (close...but not quite).....Circus, while much bigger than GI2M in the states, WW it's about the same sized hit as GI2M based on chart stats. Circus the album thus far hasn't done much better than HC sales wise (both are in the neighborhood of 3.5 milliion) WW yet Circus is labeled as a big hit and HC is labeled a flop. Simply because Britney fans are grateful for ANYTHING she gives them no matter what the quality, yet Madonna's diehards expect Songs In The Key Of Life or ROL everytime she puts out an album. What gives?
It's ridiculous anytime anybody says remotely critical of Britney her fans here fly off the edge and say "well we don't expect that (greatness?) from Britney. She's just her. I like her for other reasons" Well MADONNA is just MADONNA and as you all should know she ebbs, flows and comes and goes and does what the fuck ever she wants to do. You, I or any fan will probably never LOVE everything she does, that's just how it goes with someone like her who doesn't stick with one thing musically.
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The way you go on about it, someone would think that HC is the blockbuster of the ages. And if someone enjoys the album for THEMSELVES is the most important thing to THEMSELVES.
And the way you and those on your side of the fence go on about it you would think it was a disaster of epic proportions. Everything in regard to facts about the success of the album that I have posted in this thread are true, I didn't make them up. So go on about how awful YOU FEEL but don't label it something it's not because you don't like it, that's all I'm saying.
I think defenders of the album are tired of being criticized because WE LIKE THE ALBUM. Call me the Madonna police all you want....but who the fuck are you guys?? THE MUSIC POLICE?? Only what YOU like is good and what everybody else likes is shit because you think so? Don't know if that's how you guys mean to come across but that's the way you do come across.
And the irony of it all is that all of you like what MOST consider to be the bottom of the barrel of music.....Dannii, Britney.....lol. You do know most people would ROTFL at the notion that those are REAL musical "artists".
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OH and 12:51 I don't think gays hate it because it's R&B. If anything I think many don't like Madonna working with the biggest producers of the moment AND many perceive it as THEM giving HER a hit....when many feel it should be the other way around....I think that irritates some fans. And like yourself, you simply DON'T LIKE the music....nothing more nothing less. I will say though, the whole project had a bit of a "dark cloud" from the moment the P and T&T words were mentioned as being involved with it. Before anybody ever heard a note. Just an observation....don't know if any of that carried over and kind of clouded judgement of the music for some.....maybe, it's not that far fetched.
But I just found it funny that many in this thread were absolutely X-THATIC over the thought of PSB being on HC......I'm just not surprised that's all.
It just so happens their music is pretty Euro in sound, dance/electronic oriented and they aren't very popular in the states. GO FIGURE! Sometimes stereotypes really are fitting. But anyways.....And sure I would've been open to it, but based on what I've heard from them over the last few years, at best I think HC would've been a mediocre COADF but I certainly would've been open to it. I personally LOVE electronic music so she could've done it forever for all I care. It was just cool seeing her branch out into other areas of pop for the moment.
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Again, I have to reiterate... SO WHAT?
Who here has said anything about it being a mistake? The worst that was said about it was that is was a shitty album, or that it was transitional (I said that - and transitional doesn't equal bad. It just means it was transitional). And as expected the same troupe of people dampen their undies for no reason because for some reason this album being dismissed by half of her fanbase seems to REALLY bother them. I don't get it. And what's so bad about thinking a song or two with Pet Shop Boys would have been interesting? I'm sure you would have loved it yourself.
After all, no one here started championing Madonna's change in sound until she made Hard Candy and half of her fanbase didn't like it. All of a sudden, Confessions and the 3 albums before it were a "tired" sound, and anyone who liked them more than Hard Candy was just a poof who was stuck in the past. And apparently they all sounded the same too, because anything within the european producer/electro genre sounds totally the same.
To me it just sounds like you guys are finding any old excuse to defend this album, even dismissing the albums she made before it if thats what it means. And I gotta say, for all this R&B talk, it wasn't that much of a genre leap. It was a pop album, a lot like Bedtime Stories and Confessions (which by the same token was hailed as a dance album, but wasn't really). And people still hate it. So that whole "gay men hate R&B, thats why you hate it" theory is a bit meaningless now isn't it?And it's the same people coming in to find any reason to dismiss the success (NOTICE I said dismiss the SUCCESS of the album...not the QUALITY) the album did have simply because they don't like it. I DON'T CARE IF YOU THINK IT'S THE WORST ALBUM IN RECORDED MUSIC HISTORY. YOU WERE THE MINORITY THE ALBUM WAS A WORLDWIDE HIT. This isn't like AL which divided fans then as well too, the thing is though for that time AL WAS a flop. It didn't finish as a big seller WW, it got VERY mixed reviews AT BEST and failed to produce a hit single. Again, success doesn't equal quality but when EVERYTHING (fan love, sales, reviews etc.) surrounding a project is a flop....even amongst the diehards, then it's probably NOT the artists best work. HC had NONE of those liabilites, the opposite in fact.
The big "SO WHAT??" is this.....YOU (and many other of her diehards) didn't like the album. FINE. Myself and many others saw enough "quality" in 4M and HC to make them bona fide successes. So....the moral is dear, not EVERYBODY thinks it's garbage. It wasn't some HUGE mistake as many try to imply, it did NOTHING to damage her career and in fact take a look around......when is the last time we had this many "younger" fans on the board?? NOT directly after AL I can tell you that. So tell me, other than the fact that YOU personally do not like the music very much, how was this project a failure?
And yes of course I realize not all electronic music sounds the same. All of her electronic influenced albums sound different, I do have ears!
But it was refreshing to see her go a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT route this time. AWAY from the electronica after 10 years of using it heavily. Because (as evidenced by the poor US airplay of basically ALL her singles this decade until 4M) NOT EVERYBODY likes "different" and what is wrong with her catering to those who like a more current, typical Top 40 sound for ONE song or ONE album?? It's not like she's going Mariah and is going to have an R&B feel to all her albums and collab with ONLY the "hottest" of the moment from here on out. It was a one time thing.....THAT my friend is the big "SO WHAT" that all of you need to get the eff over already!
Now run along I'm sure some new HQ vids of Brits DRAG SHOW (essentially that's what it is) have surfaced for you all to cream over!
GODDESS!!
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I would've liked 4M's success better if the momentum carried over into GI2M (which is much more of a Madonna track IMO). 4M shouldn't be the "Believe"/"What's Love Got To Do With It" late-period blockbuster career hit, IMO it's too Justin/Timbaland and not "Madonna" enough. People liked the song, but they liked the song more than they liked Madonna, or else they would've bought the album (the same people who bough AL bought HC give or take) and other singles from the album would've been successful on iTunes. I just see it as Justin fans downloading the song for Justin and nothing else, and not it being a mass comeback type of song that really launched Madonna's career back to the forefront like those aforementioned Cher and Tina tracks.
Look, we can debate this and go back and forth for hours. I believe 4M was a quick and easy hit to get Madonna one more US hit that she wasn't going to get on her own, but in the long run, it didn't attract a new generation of fans the way ROL did, but just attracted some Justin fans to download Madonna for one song, and nothing more. You can feel the other way, I just think that it's a shame the success of that song didn't transcend into bigger sales and more success for subsequent singles instead of being this one-off success story when it's the least Madonna sounding song of her career.
People did buy the album the though. It was the biggest seller by and American artist worldwide last year and check out youtube and all the kids doing dances and things to 4M.....even Miley did her little vid. Justin on it alone probably exposed her to a new generation who maybe decided to check her out. There are even fans on this board who have come on board because of HC so I'd say it was rather successful overall. I think the "dark cloud" about it on this board can distort the big picture. No....it didn't have the MASS critical acclaim of ROL but only LAP ever has. It didn't sell 15 million like ROL but she only has done that otherwise in the 80's during her commercial peak. Under the 2008 definintions of success for an album, HC WAS a success. You can't get much better than the best selling album by an American artist worldwide for the year. It's just old seeing it get labeled a failure simply on the fact a lot of her diehards didn't like it. So what really though? A true diehard probably bought it anyways and a true diehard knows that she'll probably blow them away with the next album so it's not like she's losing DROVES of fans. She's an artist you and I won't always like what she's offering us. And we are talking about Madonna so I doubt 4M will be her last big hit.
And the success of 4M was absolutely an equal thing. JT doesn't = success. Of his songs where he's a "featured" artist, only 2 have done better than 4M. Even his song with Beyonce wasn't a big hit and obviously they are 2 of the most popular acts out there at the moment. 4M was absolutely one of the bigger commercial successes of all artists involved.
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Who determines what is good and bad quality? Many old school rock enthusiasts (think the types who were against M being inducted to RRHOF) would shun most of the dance/pop music most of us here listen to because it's not "real music" just a bunch of synthesizers and computers. I'm pretty sure most of us here wouldn't agree with that.
Stats don't necessarily reflect quality but obviously somebody, somewhere in the US found enough "quality" in 4M to snatch up 2 million copies of it, something like 30 or 40 million (??) youtube hits and people must have been requesting the song for it to get the airplay it did so.......many of you didn't find quality in it or HC but somebody else did.....in fact with 4M it was moreso than any of her songs in nearly a decade and the album had decent word of mouth for it to stick around the charts as long as it did on the strength of 1 hit single. And of course it's one of the biggest sellers of last year worldwide.
Just because some of her gays' peacock feathers were ruffled over this doesn't mean the project was a mistake or should've happened any differently. It is what it is and the HC project was a success critically and commercially. So why change anything about it?
NATURALLY most fans are orgasming at the thought of PSB having been on HC...... and wouldn't ya know it just so happens to be more less known (gotta keep it hip), electronic oriented, euro producers. WHAT A SHOCKER!
Hmmm.....that would've made it album number 5 for the euro/electronic-ish type of sound. And SHE is the one who has been "out of touch" recently??
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@ IT memorabalia
Poor "it"!
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It's obvious that British and Americans have different definitions for "pop". The UK charts are regularly filled with songs like "Cry For You" by September", "Infinity" by Guru Josh or "Something Good" by Utah Saints, while they are lucky to reach Bubbling Under in the US and they can only be found on the dance charts. COADF was definitely having influences of this kinda music, being produced by a British dance DJ, choruses repeated till no end etc.
Hard Candy is "pop" in the American sense of the word, since 2001 The Neptunes have been taking a big slice of pop music and Timbaland was dominating the charts in 2006-2007.
The big difference is that while the US does not allow dance music to be mainstream, "US pop" is also very successful in other parts of the world.
That said, I think if we take Madonna's whole career into account, then it's easier to say that HC is more pop because it has the feel of her early 80s stuff, while most of COADF has the Euro-retro-club feel, which was definitely not part of her roots. "Jump" & "Like It Or Not" being the exceptions. I think "Give It 2 Me", "Heartbeat" & "Beat Goes On" are as pure pop as it can get.
Well put Danny!
That's why I tend to categorize it with Madonna, LAV and TB. To me HC is like a version of those albums for the 00's. Not as thematic or cohesive as COADF, AL or ROL musically. Like the first 3 albums it's just a collection of current "American pop" songs.
And I wouldn't mind at all if only she and Pharrell did an entire album together. To me his is the best stuff on HC and he's so versatile.
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There really is nothing 'wierd and experimental' about much of Madonna's work. Ray of Light for instance is a very solid mainstream pop album, with simple melodies and lyrics and great pop hooks. Madonna happened to clothe that in swirling synths and eastern influences, which itself was not an unheard of idea at the time. The difference is, the the production of Ray of Light was original enough to have fresh apeal to the mainstream, and the videos and images that accompanied the videos were arresting and imaginative. In other words, Ray of Light wasn't a wierd experiment, it was simply a Madonna record. And I expect the same from any Madonna record, because that's what she does -she innovates; she grows; it's fun. That's what she stopped doing with this record. Since it's all in the past, apart from the fag-end of this tour, let's all look forward to what she does next.
I can assure you to an average Top 40 radio listener or a Madonna fan who doesn't like much after Vogue, most of ROL-COADF is weird to them. She didn't stop growing and innovating with HC, up until this album she hadn't done a current US-centric sounding album in ages......not in this decade at all. So the urban/pop sound of '08 had not been covered by her at all before. I challenge you to pick out any Madonna album where the sound was completely new, she's never done that. She does sounds SHE has never done before, a lot of times she happens to do them before others in the mainstream have (ROL), sometimes she does it after (Erotica,LAV, BS). Nothing new there. Like you said about ROL, HC was just a Madonna record like all the others.
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Kurt, I think COADF is more straight up pop than HC. HU is a HUGE pop song probably the one of the biggest she has ever done. I mean the the lyrics, the chorus, the melody, the baseline,
the ABBA sample its just pure pop. Sorry, Get Together, Jump those songs are some of the best she has done in ages. I find HC a mixed bag. Incredible, Spanish Lesson and 4 Minutes just seem lazy and lack melody.
But COADF still had a very heavy electronic sound and that's what I meant was that sound is not that big here in the US. Look at it's US sales vs. the rest of the world. Most in the US wouldn't call HU a "classic" Madonna song....I know it's hard for some to fathom since the song was absolutely massive everywhere else in the world, but seriously here, it was just a minor hit that came and went pretty quickly, in fact I never even heard it on the radio at all. Sure the gays always love her, but I'm talking a casual listen to the radio while at work kind of listener. So.... when she was more "euro-centric" with her music for the past decade, I personally know people who were completely turned off......or enjoyed very little until HC came out. I agree with you, COADF is an awesome pop album but it was just good to hear her step away from the euro based stuff for a little while.
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I love HARD CANDY. It's in my top 5 favorite Madonna albums and takes me back to when I became a fan of hers in the 80s...before her sound became pretentious and weird. It's explosive on a stereo with loud, bass booming speakers. I think the album has 'Madonna' all over it. She has writing credits on every song. How could it not? Really who cares if Tim/Pharrall have produced others and if HC may have a passing similarity to other things they've done. What does it matter? When did it become law that Madonna always had to go left?
I agree with everything you said except the part about her "pretentious and weird" music. Some of that music is my favorite of her career...lol But I understand what you are trying to say and I know many who share your same opinion. My best friend for example is primarily a fan of Madonna's music all the way up to 1990 or so really (although she likes some BS tracks) but when Madonna released ROL she completely lost her and with HC it's the first time she has come around to Madonna's new music in a long time. I know a few people like that, who haven't enjoyed anything the past 10 years or so but warmed up nicely to HC.
Sorry boys......not EVERYBODY likes techno/electro/folktronica and "weird" experimental music EVERY TIME SHE RELEASES SOMETHING. Some just want some straight up pop sometimes and that's what HC is. Moreso than any of her albums since TB IMO. And after 15+ years of being "to the left" in her musical tastes, she more than earned the right to make a straight up, unapologetic pop album. Some of her newer, younger fans that have hopped on board within the last 10 years or so seem to have this thing that Madonna MUST make something that sounds completely different than everybody else every time. I can't help but giggle a bit when I read fans who hope Madonna releases some folk/gypsy album next time around....as I have read before on here...lol. Understandable, that's the Madonna they fell in love with. But for fans like us that have been around a while, HC is more of a "back to the roots" kind of album. The fact is, before Erotica she typically made some of the best quality pop music out there, but none of it was particularly groundbreaking or different. It was the whole "Madonna package" that was different than the others. And let's be real.....even on HC there are still songs that have that latter day Madonna "weird" feel to them. How many pop tarts would pull off a SNM or Voices?
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Live To Tell
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Never thought we'd see her like this again.
Gorgeous, perfection.....possibly one of the best photoshoots of her career.
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Live To Tell
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PRAISE JESUS!!!
Madonna's looking pretty damn good too. I don't typically look forward to photo spreads but ever since I've heard about this one and saw the pic of her with the Bad Girl hair in the hotel room window I've been itching for these to leak! Glad they are starting to.
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Both M and Celine did a phenomenal job. And *if* Celine were to outgross Madonna by the end of TC tour then M will probably beat that record on her next tour. Watch....by the end of her LN contract Madonna is gonna be grossing like half a billion dollars during a 4 month tour! lol
She sure is setting a high precedent for herself. I can already see the meltdown if one of her future doesn't break some sort of record.
"it only grossed $400 million instead of Cher's $410 million from her The Farewell To End All Farewells Tour 2014-2017.....FLOOOOOOP!!!" -
does anyone knows HARD CANDY album was voted as the best album of all time from PEOPLE's Magazine? any link......?
No, you must be thinking of People's critics favorites for 2008. Hard Candy came in at #3 I think.
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Madonna's Sticky & Sweet 08 tour become the sixth largest grossing tour of all time following:-
1. Rolling Stones' (558 million USD) for the 2005-7 Bigger Bang tour with 144 shows.
2. U2's (389 million USD) for the 2005-6 Vertigo tour with 133 concerts.
3. The Police's (350 million USD) for their 151-concert 2007-8 reunion tour.
4. Rolling Stones' (320 million USD) gross for its 1994-5 The Voodoo Lounge Tour for 128 shows.
5. Rolling Stones' (312 million USD) gross from their 2002-3 Licks tour with over 121 shows.
So she will indeed hold the title for solo artist with the highest grossing tour. NICE!
Madonna's Malawian Adoption: Appeal to The Supreme Court
in ARCHIVE - Madonna
Posted
Exactly! It's not like she's trying to do all of this from her home office back in NYC and have the kid delivered to her doorstep. She's very much "immersed" in it's culture as it is. Why is not required for anybody who wants to adopt a child outside of their home country to live in the home country of the child for an extended period of time if it's TRULY THAT IMPORTANT.
After seeing her documentary it just seriously FLOORS me that the judge could be so selfish. It truly is a state of emergency over there and nobody is even trying to do anything. So so sad. Bless Mercy.....and all the other children there too. I just hope if Madonna doesn't get to adopt her in the end that she will somehow see to it that she is fully taken care of and is actually given the opportunites to make a wonderful life for herself.
sad sad sad