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nevermind

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    NME's The 500 Greatest Songs Of All Time

    in ARCHIVE - Madonna

    Posted

    Funny how it's acceptable for women to listen to male artists but men feel they can't listen to female artists. Anyone want to guess why? Sexism just maybe?

    Even aside from that that the problem is the guys who make these listens can't see beyond their own biases. They don't listen to many female artists because they can't relate to them (which is a bullshit reason in itself), and so just go on and think men's music is Objectively Better. I wouldn't have an issue if they were just outright honest and call these lists "The Greatest Rock Songs by Men" ever - it's the bullshit of claiming itself to be a universal list (where's the jazz? the country? the metal? the dance?) and shoehorning in a few whitewashed token minorities for their own comfort.

    (I also have to laugh that the highest ranked female entry was "I Feel Love" and they spent the entire article talking about how influential it was for Daft Punk. Can't even give credit to a woman without talking about how it's been important to men).

    NME's The 500 Greatest Songs Of All Time

    in ARCHIVE - Madonna

    Posted · Edited by Nevermind

    I picked up a copy off the shelf to read in a shop waiting for a train yesterday and their opening line explaining why "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was their Number One Greatest Song Ever was because "Nirvana defined a generation". They didn't - they defined the experiences of (largely) straight white boys (and even then only some) growing up in their early 90s. For other groups Biggie and Tupac and the Spice Girls and TLC and yes, Madonna defined that generation, except of course it's only ever the experiences of straight white men that get elevated to the level of the universal. That get to speak for everyone. And now it's those people who are in the position as music journalists in their thirties to exclaim their subjective teenage opinions as Facts. Just like straight white male baby boomers had a stranglehold over the music press for decades and so could solidify a canon that had The Beatles at the top because they grew up with them, with women and minorities tokenised at best and vilified at worst if they stepped out of line (disco, Madonna for a good half of her career).

    Seriously, fuck pandering for crumbs from such a fucked up biased system. Getting excited every time she's a token female placed somewhere in the Top 50 or if maybe even Top 20 of a list full of white rock dudes (and has a woman ever been number one on these kinds of lists ever?) as if it means anything. It's embarrassing. Have you learnt nothing from Madonna? Her whole career has been about her sticking a middle finger up to this sort of oppressive orthodoxy. We should do the same.

    The good news at least is that with the rise of the internet and the increased plurality of voices heard and music available the less these attempts at Canon building matter to people. NME's sales sinking like a lead balloon year on year are the proof.

    love tried to welcome me appreciation thread

    in ARCHIVE - Madonna

    Posted

    This is probably amongst my top 15 songs by her ever.

    I love how the second half of Bedtime Stories is Madonna basically internalising literary influences (Whitman, Proust etc.) and shitting out pure poetry. Because really this song is nothing if not poetry. Like:

    "Instead of spring it's always winter/and my heart has always been a lonely hunter" - Too real. Too tragic. Too perfect.

    It's Madonna at her bleakest and most nakedly vulnerable (before motherhood essentially saves her) cocooning herself in the most gorgeous opulent production imaginable. SO MUCH LOVE.

    After recent controversies would THE BLACK MADONNA make a good album title?

    in ARCHIVE - Madonna

    Posted

    :rolleyes: I think it's obvious that the concept was tongue in cheek in the first place.

    You ever hear people saying 'do you listen to black music?'? I think that's what she was commenting on. People's ridiculously closed minds which are evident in this thread. Such a bunch of drama queens. BLACKDONNA SUMPREME NINJA!

    Oh ok, I didn't get that. Seems sort of a tenuous reason to put on blackface. I know Madonna loves being ironic and poking fun at stuff like that, but there's no way that message would transfer coherently to the public.

    After recent controversies would THE BLACK MADONNA make a good album title?

    in ARCHIVE - Madonna

    Posted

    It would have made the SEX controversy look like child's play. And I don't think in 2008 she'd have the cultural cachet to overcome the backlash like she did at her very peak. Thank god she didn't do it.

    Plus, I could see the inspiration with it if she was making an album that explored racism, sexism, religion, global politics etc. (aka something like Like a Prayer or Erotica or American Life), but pairing it with Hard Candy, where the only inspiration for "Black Madonna" was a few urban beats with Timbaland and Pharrell (when she's always made urban music!) would look so embarrassing.

    Kanye West: "Madonna is the greatest visual musical artist that we've ever had"

    in ARCHIVE - Madonna

    Posted

    Sort of felt for some time that if anyone is the "New Madonna" (and I KNOW no one is before y'all jump down my throat) it's not any pop girl but Kanye - no other musician is so continually controversial, unapologetically outspoken and fearless, loathed and loved in equal measure, but generally grudgingly respected despite everything.

    So to see him compliment her isn't a massive surprise? And it's great to see!

    (I sound like a fan but I'm really not FYI).

    Deeper and Deeper lyrics. LOVE!

    in ARCHIVE - Madonna

    Posted

    What I learned was that M & Shep were unable to get the verse right and later Madge decided to sample Vogue.

    That's interesting, because what strikes me about the "Vogue" sample is that on the face of it is seems so unnecessary. By the time it comes in, there definitely isn't any need for a verse - the song is already just under 5 minutes long - the song could end right there and work perfectly. It follows that "deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, never gonna hide it again, sweeter and sweeter and sweeter and sweeter, never gonna have to pretend..." section that works as a signature Madonna rising outro exactly like the ones at the end of "Papa Don't Preach" and "Like a Prayer" and "Vogue" that are incredible features in themselves (lesser artists would just repeat the chorus and close). We're so used to the "Vogue" quote now but anyone listening to the song for the first time would think the song was fading out on a high. But here she pushes on, adds the "Vogue" bit to climax the song for a second time, and then adds that final coda "you know there's nothing better that I'd like to do" to close. I mean, what other pop songs provide three brand new sections that last for over a minute after the final chorus? The song is just gratuitously generous. Everything is so finely thought out and well placed (which makes me so sure the "Vogue" quote is there for a reason), while simultaneously feeling so naturalistic and improvised in that moment. And that's without mentioning the song's intro, bridges, middle eight (with the strings coming in half way through...), flamenco drop... Like seriously!!! The only song she has that works on such an epic scope is "Like a Prayer", perhaps "Vogue". It's really really not given enough credit!

    More iconic: Like a Prayer or Vogue?

    in ARCHIVE - Madonna

    Posted

    I'd be interested to know the experiences of those around when both were released. I get the sense "Vogue" was bigger at the time - it was the best selling song of 1990, obviously ushered in a dance craze, and was released at the absolute peak of her imperial phase; meanwhile Like a Prayer to some extent was overshadowed by its video controversy.

    Deeper and Deeper lyrics. LOVE!

    in ARCHIVE - Madonna

    Posted

    I absolutely think the "Vogue" callback works as a parallel to her mother's advice at the beginning of the song (which is in itself a callback obviously, as you noted to The Sound of Music). The song basically falls through the looking glass halfway through and reflects itself. I interpret things slightly differently though. Bear with me...

    "Deeper and Deeper" works on several levels, and aside from being the greatest coming out song ever, it's also a very personal song about her conflicted upbringing, and the long-lasting effects that her parents have had upon her life. Specifically, the tensions between her father's restrictive authoritarianism and her mother's boundless generosity and wisdom (a merger of "Promise to Try" and "Oh Father" almost). "When you know the notes to sing you can sing most anything" is a recognition that her mother is the greatest impetus behind her following her path to becoming a singer, to becoming MADONNA. The "Vogue" reference at the end is in part an acknowledgement of a destiny fulfilled (not only is she singing but she's singing her own iconic song!), of her mother's influence winning out over her father's repressive control. It's not intended to mean literally that Madonna Fortin said "go out and sing", the verse is intentially phrased as a universal parable (just one of the million incredible things about "Deeper and Deeper"), but rather that undeniably her mother's death is the defining event of her life - the one that has most shaped her experiences and psyche (and hence her music - has any popstar ever sung as much about mortality as Madonna?). Losing her mother is so much behind why she sought so deperately to find love and validation elsewhere ("I travelled round the world, looking for a home..."), to live so willfully and vitally in the moment, sometimes more than any other human it seems. Think with your heart not with you head, follow your dreams and desires because life is far too short. When you know the notes to sing you can sing most anything, do most anything, be almost anything. Madonna's life is living testament to that philosophy. "Deeper and Deeper" is an ode to her mother's love, those "kisses sent from heaven above", that still guide her and shape her and comfort her even though she's passed on. And always will ("I will always have you inside of me, even though you're gone, love still carries on..." as she spells it out on the following album).

    So the "Vogue" callback is her reflecting her mother's message. "Deeper and Deeper" is largely about growing up and becoming your own person, and the bridge and flamenco drop is precisely the point of internalisation and transformation. Her mother might be gone, but the "Vogue" climax is her becoming her own mother in her sense - now she's grown enough to be giving advice (and she's taking her own advice, because its her own song!). Except instead of instructing how to sing, she's instructing how to DANCE. "You've got to just let your body move to the music, you've got to just let your body go with the flow!". Because only when I'm dancing can I feel this free right? And "Deeper and Deeper" is essentially a story of liberation. It's like she's taking her mother's message and improving it, and passing it on to a whole new generation. Of course "Vogue" itself is a song offering divine advice, but there she was imperious - a Queen deigning to help her subjects transcend their meagre existences - here it's like she's just recognised on a gritty human level just how vital and life-changing those lyrics were. And have been to many of us I guess!

    Of course the reference to "Vogue" is also there because what better way to end the greatest coming out song of all time than throwing in the definitive gay anthem by the greatest gay icon ever as the climax - the point where you're out and accepted yourself and fuck it you're gonna go out out and dance and move to the music and go with the flow and live it up and listen to Madonna and be a massive slut 'cos there's nothing better that you'd like to do (no coincidence it's followed by "Where Life Begins" on Erotica btw). But the queer subtext is a whole other post and I've written way too much already.

    Greatest song ever IMO. The words 'epic' and 'masterpiece' don't do it justice.

    My dream producer for the next album is...

    in ARCHIVE - The REBEL HEART Forum

    Posted

    The bottom line is that the quality of Madonna's songwriting has varied wildly over the years. She had a long stretch of high quality lyrics, and they started to get a little embarrassing after she had Lourdes. ROL gets a pass because of the music and production and perceived "introspection," but "Little Star," "Swim," etc. are pretty lame lyrically. Obviously people will disagree, but those two have always stuck out to me. Even "Nothing Really Matters" is weak lyrically. It's made up for by Pat's incredible melody and WO's fantastic production. Unfortunately, I think it's a natural progression. In the '90s she was surrounded by cutting edge young people, the club scene, reading Walt Whitman and watching obscure indie films. As she's gotten older, she's been surrounded by Kaballah, little kids, etc. That's GOT to affect your writing. People evolve and change, and sometimes get less sophisticated in many respects.

    Another example: Imagine the movies Madonna would have made in the 90s. They're probably be really subversive, button-pushing, and provocative. Now what kind of movie does she make? W.E. Pretty conservative and reflective of her worldview of privilege and celebrity.

    I won't mention secretprojectrevolution, which was discussed at length when we all saw it, but there are examples in that too. Who was it who said it's like she's talking to children now and not her equals? That's a great example.

    This is such a great post.

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