BrendanT1993
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Gina, Democracy and Fundamentalism
"This had to be done" said Gina Miller, one of the parties behind the Art 50 challenge.
This challenge is about process, not politics, not solely about Brexit. It's about honouring the place of respectful public debate and the role of parliament in our democracy. Most people now accept, reluctantly in my case, that we will leave the EU, but as this is a complicated matter and so far so badly handled, the manner of our leaving is so important that it can't be left to rule by decree, or exercise of the Royal Perogative. Gina's action has restored Parliament's role in ensuring we get an agreed version of Brexit, and hopefully not the hard one favoured by the hard right.
On Democracy as we know it here, there are three pillars on which it is built; remove one and the edifice collapses.
These are Parliament, the Courts and the Executive. They are all independant and interdependent. In this case there are tensions are between the last two. Our own LCJ some years ago at a Human Rights conference expressed those tensions well, and the vital role which judges must exercise independently in scrutinising legislation or matters such as the process of leaving the EU. He said that backwards and forwards there's a 'conversation' between the courts and the legislature, but each must respect the independence of the other. Ultimately, Parliament makes the laws, the Courts interpret them, and may actually strike them down as being non compliant with Human Rights, Equality or in this case, as being constitutionally unsound. While this case will end up in our Supreme Court, I have no doubt whatever that the Government will fail in its appeal. If the Court had held in favour of the Government, they would be saying, "Go on, rule by decree, just like a Roman Emperor: Parliament its MPs and their constituents are as nothing, rather, putty in your hands."Yes, brave Gina, has done us all, and democracy a huge favour. Admire her pluck, her inner strength and praise her for what she has done.
On Fundamentalism, we've just seen what I hoped I'd never see in my lifetime, nasty attacks on Gina and her supporters, vile and racist and shamefully fuelled by disgraceful headlines in the Daily Mail about her and the three learned appeal judges who heard the case, compounded by a stoney silence on the part of the Prime Minister and her Justice Secretary. It's clear that the latter, with no legal background, hasn't a clue about the role of the Courts. Some MPs are even suggesting that we scrutinise the way judges are appointed. No thanks: the result would be loss of Independence!
But this dangerous drift to Fundamentalism appears to be on the increase. From the local example of the inappropriate, possibly unlawful use of the Petition of Concern, the lunge to the Right in Europe, the Ascendancy of Putin, the creeping dictatorship in Turkey to the madness of the American Presidential campaign where a judge has just had to intervene to prevent Trump supporters from ballot bullying, democracy is more at risk now than it was during at time over the past century.
So, back to Gina. Thank you: you're a heroine, and all of us, Leavers or Remainers, will be the richer and safer now.
We should always remember that we all, individuals, communities and governments are interdependent on each other, and can thrive so much better within the safe and respectful shelter of each other.
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From the Northern Irish perspective, the vote in the Assembly yesterday was shortsighted and politically mean. Unionist members in particular just haven't grasped the importance of being with the Irish Government on much of this. I know there's 'old' politics in this, but this is no time for being politically mean. Northern Ireland and the Republic are inextricably connected and to divide them via a boarder that hasn't needed to be used in nearly 40 years is incredibly worrying!
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actually Northern Ireland voted to remain and have launched a legal challenge to prevent Brexit as it contradicts the Good Friday Agreement. Sadly it isn't as simple as just handing it back, A United Ireland is just a pipe dream at this point
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So my friend on facebook (who's a retired lawyer) had this to say and gave me permission to post here as well so people can understand what it's really like here, i kinda suck at explaining but sometimes manage to
Ireland North & South are extremely interlinked in all walks of business life which have been progressed over the past 50 years. Some people are either delusional or just plain stupid to think that an Irish Taoiseach should have no influence or say on All Ireland matters, also a third of Northern Ireland’s exports in 2015 (£2.1bn out of £6.3bn) were to the Republic (trade with Great Britain is not considered an export), while only 1.6% of the Republic of Ireland’s exports of €111bn (£97bn) were to Northern Ireland. Now ask yourself who's interest is it in,to attend these talks.
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Honestly i don't know if the border will remain open but i know the Irish governments is setting up an island wide discussion involving parties in the north and south, we are entering uncertian times ahead of us, I am certianly not waiting for any answers from our First Minister, Arelene Foster and frankly the Tories in Westminster don't care about Northern Ireland despite what Theresa May says about one nation, it's hollow rhetoric!
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Brexit - realism kicks in here!
All very well for England to weather the turbulence caused by Brexit, but not for us in Northern Ireland, we are ignored as usual!
We need answers. Let's have honest answers now with no covered up reports.
I can guarantee we won't get straight answers, because even Brexiteers, intoxicated with their own propaganda, can't give us answers on borders. It's the EU which will have a lot to say about this, but we will be caught in the middle
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Americans in general are rude #sorrynotsorry
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So relieved that this has happened. Why should Muslim women be deprived of the basic pleasure of feeling the sand trickling through their toes and the benefits of swimming.
I imagine that there will be other challenges. While I understand why France might have wanted to pin secularism to most of what it does, it has had the reverse of what it intended to do in the first place. Instead it has built up resentments on the part of its many Muslim citizens, and we all know that resentments are at the very core of most conflicts.
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Trump's claims about how the election will be rigged if he loses are absolute BS. He's the most irresponsible presidential candidate in living memory.
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This speech might be the most powerful thing I've watched the entire convention. I watched it with my parents and we were all crying by the end.
That was one hell of a speech on Hillary's part. I gotta tell you if everything she said on Trump is true, then there's no way in hell that man should be fit for being president. That part where she mentioned his unpaid debts was also where he filed bankruptcy all those years back and even when he had to liquidate the airline he owned.
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It's shocking that doctors on the NHS as recently as the 1980s were practicing aversion therapy, a form of gay cure therapy that included being given a drug that made the person extremely sick and they were forced to listen to a tape of negative words reinforcing the idea that gay is bad, plus they had to sit there in their own vomit, nasty stuff and i'm glad we have came a long way since then,
truth be told a few years ago i wanted to be cured as i was very confused, too much catholic guilt from my childhood i guess :/
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As happens often, I listen to international current affairs before I drift off to sleep. Usually the radio wakens me up in the early hours, no less this morning.
I wakened to a powerful speech from Joe Biden and another one from Hilary Clinton's running mate.
But of all of those 3 speeches, Barack Obama's one was simply spellbounding, full of references to achievements, unfinished business such as curbing guns, and much reference to the founding fathers and their vision for the new brave land. But above all, there were sections of his speech referring to principles, political morality, commercial ethics and those values which have the power to unite Americans.
There were scorching attacks in all three speeches on Donald Trump's integrity. You would think that after listening to him, that no one in their right mind would support that demagogue. But, beware, there are stupid people out there, as everywhere.
Then there were Obama's Equality statements, of which this is just one. We shall miss him, Michelle and his family from the White House. If you click on the link, you'll see the entire speech. Be impressed!
"I see Americans of every party, every background, every faith who believe that we are stronger together, black, white, Latino, Asian, Native American, young, old, gay, straight, men, women, folks with disabilities, all pledging allegiance, under the same proud flag, to this big, bold country that we love."
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Yes, fair enough, Theresa, but let's hope this can be achieved.
What are you proposing? A free trade area for the island of Ireland?
Does the trade border move to our airports and ports?
I have to say this was all glossed over on the run up to the referendum.
Tricky, would you say?
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Well worth looking at this. There are variations on a full blown All Ireland republic and when eventually we are calm enough, and this fog of uncertainty over the North's future outside the EU has thinned or lifted, just maybe then we can see where the future lies.
In my view, Blexit might have unintentionally provided a stimulus to create new thinking and a new culture of understanding between all our people on these islands.
Just to hoist my flag, I'm Irish, British and European, and the order in which I place these identities changes with my mood or the prevailing circumstances. For instance, the day after the Referendum, I travelled to take part in the Dublin Pride Parade. My feelings that day were subdued by two things, firstly leaving the EU and secondly, not having the Civil Marriage Equality Ireland achieved the previous year. Now I'm a confident guy, but the thought of being more "other" than usual, being second class-ish still lingers.
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This appointment was such a mistake! Oh dear, it's cringeworthy!
Why oh why?
By the way, I can't understand a word he says as he's so posh; maybe if did understand him, I'd be forced to further question his integrity.
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As I was entering Belfast City Hall yesterday morning, I bumped into the new Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
He stopped to chat to me, one to one. We chatted for about 3 minutes. I told him of my close personal and family ties with Ireland (the South) and. I made reference to the customs border checks and the ensuing delays and said that I never wanted that to return.
I further said that we (NI & South) were closer than ever, and lived within each others shelter. He agreed and said that he would do all he could to avoid any disruption of the current arrangements between North and South.
I came away rather impressed with this man, and his friendly open manner certainly inspired me with some confidence.
Good luck, James: it's a tough one!
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Turkey and UK - comparisons in democratic practices
The recent failed coup in Turkey against the democratically elected President (odious though he may be) and his government stimulates the thought of when is it appropriate and valid to overturn the will of the people by armed insurrection?
The recent Referendum in the UK, with an unexpected and, in my personal view, an undesirable result raises some of the same doubts about the limitations in democratic processes. Talks of a rerunning of the Referendum are a denial of the right of the people to make important and constitutional decisions usually made their parliamentary representatives, unless it can be argued that there are strong and cogent reasons for such a rerunning of the poll. Some of those reasons might be the realisation that the Union will be at risk and that the lived experience of life post poll is too painful to bear. There is another one, and that is that the original process was so badly planned and executed that the result might be declared null and void. An example of the bad planning was the failure by the government to authoritively explain to the public the possible pros and cons of leaving.
Back to Turkey, a very different and difficult place, democracy, even as they understand it, is at considerable risk. In the past, the army has stepped in to curb the excesses of previous dictators. In this instance, they rather timed and planned it badly, but Erdogan does run the risk that at some stage the army may step. As against this, the challenges to Turkey, internally and externally are greater than they ever have been, and an astute politician like Erdogan will play these for all they're worth, to his advantage of course, for with men like him, survival, power, control, money and self interest reign supreme.
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Turkey the place to watch?
Erdogan is hardly able to suppress his glee at both the attempted coup and its failure in giving him the opportunity to further build up his power base, his dictatorship.
With widespread arrests and dismissal of judges as well as possible executions, this country, pivotal in many ways on the edge of both Europe and the Middle East, will challenge us in future diplomatic and security relationships.
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Has Theresa May produced a political masterpiece? The UK is stuck between a rock ( it must leave the EU) and a hard place (the costs are horrendous for key sections of the economy and, potentially for the social and political cohesion of the state)
How can this dilemma be resolved? For me Theresa May starts in the only place she can: unambiguously Brexit must mean Brexit. in other words, we must accept the instruction of the people to find a way to leave. But, rather than risk the accusation that she didn't really try very hard, she has therefore rightly said: the people who plot the course and show us how to achieve this purpose must be those who want to arrive there- not any half hearted remainers.
So she has given responsibility for achieving the outcome to those who said they wanted it- Boris in the FCO, Davies and Fox in Trade and Leadsom with the Farmers and Environmentalists. Now nobody can say that everything was not tried and the people who wanted Brexit can now spell out and take responsibility for what it means for people and the country in real terms rather than in slogans. Boris, Davies, Fox and Leadsom must Brexit without trashing the country or its people. We were told it would be easy- so go on lads and lasses. Boris can only succeed by not pissing off the Americans ( ie don't piss off Europe), the trade deal has to be serious ( no massive tariffs or economic crashes) and Leadsom is toast unless she can find a way for farmers not to lose.
Meanwhile May has set two vital conditions: Brexit cannot come at the expense of the unity of the state, and Brexit cannot be for the benefit of the super-rich at the expense of ordinary people. She has said that the UK position must be a joint one with Scotland,- even that there will be no Article 50 until it is agreed. Essentially this means that Scottish trade with the EU has to continue uninterrupted after Brexit. Along with this she has a key ally as SoS in NI who says that the border must be kept open.
For Theresa May this is an each way bet: if the deals they strike lead to the sunny uplands, she is the leader who took us there, if they take us into catastrophe she cannot be accused of lack of effort and she can now in all honesty turn round and ask for a mandate to change course.
Brexit has to be achieved while saving the Union and not causing Foreign Policy or Domestic disasters- a tall order. Indeed Article fifty will not be triggered until we agree how this is to be done in advance. All a great experiment with politics, but very clever if correct. And nothing is certain.
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Bad Hair Day... More of the not so Great Brexit Britain... a quick honeymoon for Mrs T? Gave an impressive & hopeful inaugural speech... Didn't sound like a Tory sounded more like a, Green, Labour or Lib Dem...Then she goes and puts Boris in charge of international diplomacy! Can't understand what Mr brexit liar could possibly bring to that role? Mind you it's pretty hard to find a decent Tory at the best of times... I hope Teresa lives up to her wish for social justice... Its her first day & we should give her a chance... Not optimistic though, proof will be her action... More Tory austerity = no social justice... As there is no united effective opposition Mrs Tm could be in power for a while...
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All I can say about boris being foriegn secretary is "It's a mad, mad world" and it may have got madder with this appointment! I hope he doesn't cause a major diplomatic incident.Mind you, Theresa May will take no nonsense from him. She reminds me of the Headmistress of a girls school - no, not St Trinians!
BREXIT / British Politics thread
in Politics and World Events
Posted
I think an issue as big as brexit shouldn't have been done via referendum. there were and are still too many variables to consider and i feel that both sides didn't inform the public as well as they should have on what would actually happen, (the government still don't know what they want to do and i think they will drag it out as long as they can btw) and don't even get me started on the media coverage of the court ruling, it's absolutely despicable. the people voted blindly for something they knew little about and are now regretting it