[My dream producer for the next album is...]

Sigh.

A song writing credit isn't something solely for the person who wrote the lyrics, even if someone wrote the lyrics for Madonna completely; as long as she contributed by changing the melody or adding her own ad libs and so on, it COUNTS as a song writing credit. Song writing isn't about just lyrics, in fact that only encompasses a small part of it, if you listen to the original Don't Tell Me and Madonna's version, they differ greatly, despite the fact the lyrics are practically the same.

It doesn't matter, a contribution to the songs melodic structure is song writing, song producing is a different matter all together.

So unless you were with her in the studio, move on.

Why should I have to be in the studio with her? That's silly. Should we all have been in the studio to discuss things regarding to her and her work?

Please, pay attention. I've never said she doesn't deserve a songwriting credit for DTM.

Ummmm....then what did she arrive with? You have got to be kidding me with this one.....she had nothing in New York. Were you there? Did you even watch the docs on her and her life there? SHE WAS POOR

I have watched documentaries of her and they all rely on what she has said of herself. Where's the proof? It's just her word on it. But honestly, do you really think that girl lived only on peanuts and popcorn? I don't think so. That girl wasn't starving.

Christopher totally denies that Madonna arrived in New York with nothing but 34 dollars in her pocket. What he says about Madonna's early days in NYC sounds so much more reliable and plausible than what Madonna wants or wanted to people to believe in. The whole "34 dollars" thing is nothing but storytelling. But like Christopher says it's insulting to their father. It's hurtful to him that Madonna gave an impression of him that he didn't care and let her daughter live on eating popcorn. Same with Madonna saying that her family was lower middle class. Part of her mythology is that she wants people to believe that she comes from worse background than she really does. She wants people to believe that her story is closer to "rags to riches" than it really is.

Seriously, approach and evaluate things with little more critically.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

Ask Christopher? Her jealous, spiteful brother?! I don't need to ask him what he thinks because I formulate my own thoughts!

Oh yes, why of course. Naturally it's jealousy and everything he says is out of spite. However, it's not about Christopher formulating your or anyone's thought for their behalf. *sigh*

But tell me, do you think only people who are complimentary of Madonna are reliable and trustworthy? And do you think every person who says something not-so-flattering of her is biased and unreliable? You think Joe Henry is unbiased? He really sets the record straight, right? Come on now. Let's get real. We all know how Madonna is if you tell the truth about her in public if it's not all rainbows. Those people stop existing to her.

But the truth is that Madonna has created and continues to attempt creating this sort of mythological aura around her. She does have a tendency to do that and she's done that from the beginning. She spins the truth in order to create the kind of image of herself that she wants to. Christopher talks about this and makes a very interetesting point.

Or do you actually believe that Madonna arrived in New York with only 34 dollars and ate peanuts and popcorn to survive? Please. That's just one example of her twisting the reality in order to create her own mythology. Like I said, that's been part of her story from the very start.

And before someone says it, I'll say it. No, Madonna isn't the only one who does that. But this is a Madonna forum and I'm interested in Madonna so I talk about Madonna.

Anyway, to put it shortly, nothing you said refuted what I said in regards to DTM. However, that being said, you're right about Madonna not usually taking part in feuds. I do appreciate it that she doesn't take the bait and respond to all the shit that gets thrown at her. I respect her enormously when she stays silent while other artists bash her. And yes, I do appreciate when she shows appreciation to her peers. That's classy of her.

But there's another side to that, too. Like when she doesn't acknowledge people like Shep (and who else?) at events like when she was inducted to RRHOF. He was a major collaborator and she acts like he doesn't exist. But that's who she is. A human. A paradox, like she likes to say. There are many sides to her and they contradict each other.

Almost every musical artist I have ever seen interviewed will say I wrote a song, when they have actually written a song with other people. It's just a shorthand, instead of listing all the other co-writers. It happens all the time, but I never see anyone making a big issue of it except with Madonna. I don't think in an interview it is necessary to state all the co-writers of the song when discussing the song. As long as the other people are credited on the record and paid their fair share, I don't see the problem. If Madonna says I wrote a song, it's not an intentional thing to screw over the other writers or deny them credit, but just a common everyday expression and shorthand. Every artist does it, since relatively few artists write songs completely by themselves. But somehow with Madonna something negative and terrible is read into that common expression, when it isn't with other artists.

Who says one needs to list all the co-writers? Especially when in this case (re: DTM) there was only one; the person who actually wrote the lyrics entirely on his own.

But it's funny. I can say a lot of artist who do say "I co-wrote this with..." or something along those lines. And for example, if you ever catch Elton John talking about his music, you never hear him say he wrote the lyrics. Say what you want about him but he always says Bernie Taupin wrote the lyrics and praises his talent. He doesn't need to be anything but accurate.

Oh, and I can verify that Glinda is Glinda and no one else. Not that she necessarily wants or needs me to do that.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. If seeing Madonna in action with all the hard work and passion she put into her art in 2012 doesn't convince you of that, then I won't be able to. Your opinion is your opinion, it certainly doesn't mean what you're saying is fact. Surely you must understand how someone who has frequented this forum for 10 yrs is a little skeptical about a newbie coming in and saying within their first few posts, "Madonna isn't a good artist anymore". You didn't JUST say songwriting, you said she's declined as an artist and again, that's one of the first things you say upon joining a FAN FORUM.

I may be new to this forum but I've been posting on several Madonna forums for well over a decade. Always under the same name (and only under the name "TheUnseenHand" so anyone who thinks I've had other profiles on this or any other forum is simply wrong). Madonna is still my all-time favorite artist and she will always be if not for anything else but for the first 20 years or so of her career. Like I said before in this thread, she was untouchable during those years. Not perfect but better than anyone has ever been for so long. Nobody has been so consistently great as she was. And I'll repeat it again because it seems my positive remarks need to be repeated: And Madonna doesn't get enough credit for that.

Yes, I think she's declined as an artist. I don't deny thinking that and I did mention it somewhere but I didn't go into detail and I didn't explain myself. Unlike the perception of me, I don't actually enjoy dwelling on negative things. But anyway, it is true what I said that I've concentrated basically on her songwriting.

I could add that Madonna is no different from other artists. They all decline in their later years. There's nothing bad or wrong admitting that. Besides, Madonna is still better than any other pop artist out there so...

Btw, I might also add here that I think Lily Allen is spot on here (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/nov/17/lily-allen-i-am-called-mouthy): "Nobody says anything real today. Most of those girls have their songs written by other people. It annoys me, because 'eh oh eh oh ahh' is not a chorus – that's not a point where I feel 'we're connecting', you know? I need a narrative."

What I mean is that the overall quality in pop music lyrics has declined. Again, it's not just Madonna. I love pop music and it's my favorite genre but there isn't anything to listen to nowadays. It's all crap. That's one of the reasons why I want Madonna to do better.

You CLEARLY had an agenda coming in here.

I clearly did not as I don't have one. But I don't really care what you believe.

Truth is, if I don't care for an artist, I don't spend my time registering to fan forums and ranting about them. Why would I? But I still care about Madonna and I'm interested in what she does.

You say "I haven't gone on full blown attack" as if you feel you COULD or maybe should?? I don't get that comment. Why would you go into a full blown attack against someone you respect (presumably...maybe I presume too much tho) and admire??

I think it's quite clear what I mean in the context where I said that. And to be precise, i said "It's not like I've gone on a full-blown attack here".

The reaction against me and my opinions is like I would have gone on a full-blown attack. Meaning, that when people attack me saying that I'm all negative, you would think I've gone on a full-blown attack against Madonna. And I haven't. It simply isn't true nor correct. Oh, and if you actually read my first post in this thread, I think it was rather mild even as a criticism.

You keep saying how you've complimented her so much etc but when you make a comment that pretty much says "she sucks as a songwriter and artist and she's lazy with creating her work now" then any compliments you may forcibly sprinkle into your posts to try to look more objective kinda get lost. Surely you must understand that.

I can't control the way people perceive things and on what issues they want to dwell.

If they want to concentrate on me saying that Madonna's lyrics aren't as good as they used to be instead of concentrating on me saying that nobody in the history of pop music except Madonna has been able to be as consistently great for as long as she was for over 20 years (from the beginning of her career up until 2005, imo), that's their choice. But don't try telling me that I'm the negative one here.

I'd much rather talk about those 20+ years of greatness. I still have those years no matter how disappointed I'm with the quality of current work. And they are the reasons why I continue to be interested in her. I know what she can do. I know she can be and do better than she's been/done with her most recent albums, music videos and tours. I know that and I respect her talent so much that I want her to use it to its full potential. I respect her talent. When she doesn't live up to the potential of her own brilliance and when she writes and sings songs that aren't up to her standards, I respect her talent by expecting more from her. Saying that or wanting that isn't disrespectful. Evaluating something truthfully isn't disrespectful. In fact, it's the opposite. I simply just expect more from her. Perhaps to a fault. But I know what she's capable of. That's why my standards for her are always higher than for other artists and that's why I've been disappointed by her most recent work.

But that's just me. Sorry for the long post.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

Are you kidding me with this shit? What are the high brow metaphors in Masterpiece? If anything Madonna attempts to simplify the lyrics and metaphors in her songs in order to keep them relatable.

Did I say the metaphors in Masterpiece are especially "high-brow"? No. But Madonna relies on clichés when it comes to metaphors. Her use of them nowadays is kinda lazy. Also, you can always tell what's been written by Madonna nowadays. Like we can be 100% sure that Madonna wrote the "super duper" line on Superstar as no one else in the world says "super duper" anymore.

1) You don't know the entire details of her involvement with DTM.

2) She did 'rewrite' the song.

3) She credited Joe appropriately on every piece of literature and financially. She also discussed the process in length during interviews. However she's not going to go into extensive details while introducing a performance on David Letterman. It's not that kind of show.

4) She may not have been 100% accurate but please don't make out she was trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes. Stop the bullshit.

1) What's more to know in terms of what we've been discussing?

2) But saying "I wrote this song" is still simply untrue.

3) Yes, she did credit him on those because she has to. And you've got to be kidding me. Saying "I co-wrote this song with Joe Henry" would have been closer to truth (also still not entirely accurate) or something along those lines wouldn't have been "going into extensive detail", LOL.

4) But that's typical of her. It's part of the mythology that she's created around herself. Ask Christopher.

So what's your point? Your agenda? Every post you have made has stated you feel she sucks now and how she's less of an artist. Is that your purpose for joining? To convince people at one of the most well known "positive" Madonna fan forums that she's no good anymore? I'm just trying to understand why you choose to join a Madonna forum at the nadir of your fandom to only discuss how you feel she's declined.

There's no agenda. Like I said, I posted my opinion and I would've been fine at that one post. But people got upset and started to reply to me so in the name of discussion I'm answering them back. Isn't that what these forums are about? I don't need to convince anyone. Or does that work the other way around, too? Are you trying to convince me that Madonna is a saint and a great lyricist nowadays? If so, where's the evidence?

Oh, and I said this before in this thread but I'm going to say it again: The notion that I'm all negative in regards to Madonna is simply not true. it's not like I've gone on a full-blown attack here. I've criticized her basically for one thing here. That's it. I don't go around in every thread saying something negative about her. I don't need to because that's not how I feel. In fact, I've said many positive things about her in this thread, too, but nobody pays any attention to that. So it's kinda odd that people perceive me to be the negative one when you're the ones who concentrate on my criticism but ignore the great compliments I've said of her.

Finally, I was ready to move on on page 7. I still ready to do that and I'd love that but if someone responds to me, I think it's polite I respond to them. Thank you.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

When has madonna claimed she has written these songs? This is what you're not understanding!

If she wants to record a song that's been rejected, she can do so! That does not make her any less of an artist.

Yes, it does.

Why does it matter to me? Because I've been a fan of madonna for years and I hate it when people claim she is something she is not.

But it has nothing to do with you. It's not about you. So why are you personally offended if something is said of Madonna that you don't want to hear?

She never parades around and tells people she wrote something she did not!

^ See above. It was "I wrote", not "we wrote". It wasn't even "with Joe Henry". In other words, she lied.

I don't understand how much I have to repeat myself, and I'm done trying to prove something to you.

You haven't exactly proven anything to me so repeating doesn't work.

But I'm glad you and I can finally move on. I consider her to be a lesser artist than she used to be and that's it. It's evident in all her work. My opinion of her shouldn't be a problem to anyone. Nor should anyone be offended by it (I still think that's odd).

[Forthcoming Madonna Album: Rumors, Speculation and Discussion]

Suede's M13 Fantasy list

Title: 13

Number of tracks: 13 (standard edition; deluxe edition to feature 3 music videos for the planned singles along with live performances)

Vocals: Madonna

Backing vocals: Madonna

Songwriters: Madonna, Patrick Leonard, William Orbit, Joe Henry

Producers: Madonna, Brian Eno, Daft Punk, Mirwais, William Orbit

"Guests" and "Featuring artists": NONE

End of.

I approve this message.

But I'd ass Rick Rubin as producer, too, if not nothing else but for quality control. Have you seen the Dixie Chicks documentary "Shut Up And Sing" (or whatever it was called)? It's funny when he tells them to rewrite the lyrics. Basically, he told them that the lyrics were utter crap although he did it in a much more polite way, LOL.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

Vocalism, I'm sorry, but I find it offensive that a fan would say things like "someone who claims herself as an artist shouldn't be commended for writing a third of the album"

Why is that offensive to you when it has nothing to do with you?

I don't mean to sound obsessed with gaga but her last album artpop had a FLOOD of producers on the writing credits, but as far as I know nobody has criticized her for it or tried to say anything about her not being an artist. I just think it's slightly hypocritical because madonna has never ever in her life made an album where somebody has completely done EVERYTHING For her. It just does not set well with me that a so called fan would make these kind of remarks, because her process for an album has slightly changed! Think about all the singers out here who write NOTHING on their albums and just rerecord the demos given to them! Madonna at least contributes to the process in her albums, she always has!

If it makes you feel better, I don't talk about Lady Gaga because I'm not even remotely interested in her. It's hard to criticize someone when you don't know a damn thing about her anymore. I talk about Madonna because I'm interested in her and I care about her. And when I discuss about her with other fans on different Madonna forums, I feel like I can say whatever I feel. It's sort of within family. It's like with my favorite sports teams. I can tell them that they suck but a non-fan better not say they stink or I let them have it. Same with Madonna.

But in general, what I say about Madonna applies to everyone whether I know them or not. It's a well-known fact that Beyonce bulldozes her name into songwriting credits even though she doesn't write even one word. You can be sure that I don't respect her for that either. But again, why would I talk about Beyonce when I don't listen to her and I'm not interested in her? As for people who don't write their own material, it's fine. At least they are honest about it. They don't claim to have written those songs that they record. But usually their talent is in singing. For example, Barbra Streisand whom I love. She never claims to have written the songs and always praises the people who write their songs. But her talent is in singing (and in acting, directing etc. which makes her an artist).

Madonna's gift isn't in singing although she is very much underrated as one (which is why I wish she'd stopped computerizing her vocals... there's nothing I'd rather listen to than her natural singing voice). Madonna has proven that she can a very good at songwriting if she puts her mind into it. When she accepts and rejects songs that were rejected by singers like Britney and Rihanna (notice that I don't call them artists!), I don't know why I should think that is something a real artist would do. It simply isn't what artists do. I mean, what is the artistry in that? I think it shows that she isn't really into making an album or music anymore and is doing it only because she is contractually obliged to do so. It's a shame. She can do so much better and she would get so much more respect from everyone if she committed herself into writing and creating an album. Or do you disagree? Do you honestly think she does better when she takes those rejected songs from other much lesser pop stars?

All in all, I appreciate truth and transparency. It's a major turn-off for me when people take credit for something they haven't done.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

The bottom line is that the quality of Madonna's songwriting has varied wildly over the years. She had a long stretch of high quality lyrics, and they started to get a little embarrassing after she had Lourdes. ROL gets a pass because of the music and production and perceived "introspection," but "Little Star," "Swim," etc. are pretty lame lyrically. Obviously people will disagree, but those two have always stuck out to me. Even "Nothing Really Matters" is weak lyrically. It's made up for by Pat's incredible melody and WO's fantastic production. Unfortunately, I think it's a natural progression. In the '90s she was surrounded by cutting edge young people, the club scene, reading Walt Whitman and watching obscure indie films. As she's gotten older, she's been surrounded by Kaballah, little kids, etc. That's GOT to affect your writing. People evolve and change, and sometimes get less sophisticated in many respects.

Another example: Imagine the movies Madonna would have made in the 90s. They're probably be really subversive, button-pushing, and provocative. Now what kind of movie does she make? W.E. Pretty conservative and reflective of her worldview of privilege and celebrity.

I won't mention secretprojectrevolution, which was discussed at length when we all saw it, but there are examples in that too. Who was it who said it's like she's talking to children now and not her equals? That's a great example.

Yeah, agreed on all counts. Although overall I think ROL is lyrically still head and shoulders above anything she's done since. While it was got some weak lyrics, it's still at worst a good album lyrics-wise. Also, I think ROL is a great proof of the creative simplicity of M&PL. It's always been their trademark style, imo.

I didn't want to bring it up before but I do think Kabbalah is a huge part of the problem. It's like she found the answers and stopped asking questions. In a way she stopped thinking on her own. Her interviews are another example of how she's changed. She was still extremely fascinating, reflective and even thought-provoking and all that in a mature and intelligent way. Compare the 1996 interview in Spin Magazine to any interview she's done since becoming a Kabbalah devotee.

I haven't seen anything about UnseenHand's posts that are offensive. Madonna fans are passionate and have strong opinions. People need to let it go. If you don't like someone, ignore their posts and don't reply. Why do we all have to pick on each other personally? Just agree to disagree already.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

You were banned for stirring things up on a regular basis, you received a number of warnings too, nobody gets banned for 1 thing alone

I never received any warnings from admins or moderators because I never broke any forum rules at Tribe. That's an undeniable fact. Yes, my opinions were mighty unpopular but that isn't a crime or a violation of any rules, now is it, my dear?

But when I in a very civil manner called that one moderator out for mocking other person's appearance and ridiculing her and defended that person from disgusting attacks, things started to happen. Suddenly right at that very moment someone started to delete those posts of mine in which I criticized that moderator's attitude and behaviour. Coincidence? I think not. Short after that I couldn't log in anymore. Coincidence? I think not.

But I don't need to convince anyone of this. I don't care. I find it rather funny. It says more about that one moderator (or actually, two of them) than it says about me.

Anyway, isn't this rather boring topic for conversation? Shouldn't we concentrate on Madonna instead?

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

So.....for the first 6 years of her career and now the past 16 years of her career she's produced "beneath her (your) standards". That's 22 out of the 30-31 years of her entire career. Perhaps that 9 year stretch was her zenith in your eyes. What artist is at their zenith their entire careers?

Remember that we are simply talking about lyrics here. Therefore, the first six years are out of the question for me even though she did write some great songs during those years. She was a whole another artist during the first six years. She was a singles artist in those years and didn't become "an album artist" until LAP. That was really the album with which she showed her potential as a serious artist.

Then after ROL when she started to work with mainly DJs and ignored real songwriters like Pat Leonard and Joe Henry, the overall quality of her lyrics started to go down again. I think AL is the biggest victim of that. However, while she should've spend more time on writing the lyrics for it and preferebly call Pat or Joe to help her out with them, I do love that album. You can feel her passion in it. You can hear that it was an album she cared a lot about.

So yes, lyrics-wise I do think her peak was that period of nine years from 1989 to 1998. But overall, I think she was untouchable from the beginning of her career up until AL. That's about 20 years. And no other artist has done that. No other artist has been as consistently great for as long as Madonna was during that period. And she doesn't get enough credit for it.

Um, but what was your question again? Oh, yes... What artists are at their zenith their entire careers? No one but I don't think that means we should expect or accept less from them. David Bowie is a great example. He released a great album last year after about 20 years of releasing more or less disappointing albums. He showed that he's still got it. And I believe Madonna's still got it. That's why I'm hard on her. I know she can do better and I want her to do better.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

Oh but it's heavily implied.

Not by me. Certainly it wasn't my intention.

I think I clearly said that fans who love everything she does are brainwashed.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

Up to HER usual standards or YOUR usual standards? Madonnas songwriting has always ebbed and flowed in my opinion.

Both. Her and mine. I do think the period from LAP to ROL represents her usual standards. Yes, even then there were lyrical duds but not nearly as often as post-ROL. There wasn't as much recycled lyrics, nursery rhyming and half-assed lyrics in her work until this millenium.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

No, with 30 something posts all "objectively critiquing" Madonnas recent output and suggesting her fans that "accept" this work from her as being "brainwashed" isn't the best first impression to make. Point blank, you come across as a shit stirrer.......not because of WHAT you think, many people here share the gist of your opinion, but the way you present it.

For the record: I never said that fans who like HC and MDNA are "brainwashed".

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

I don't really mind who the producer is. I tend to like all of her albums in different ways. I just want good material

That's basically the essence of what I said in my original post in this thread. I don't care about who produces but I do care about who she writes with. The material needs be up to her usual standards.

I don't really mind who the producer is. I tend to like all of her albums in different ways. I just want good material been listening to bedtime stories a lot recently, so I wouldn't mind more of an RnB feel to be honest, but that's just me in the winter

While Ray of Light is my all-time favorite album by any artist, BS might be my favorite album right now. I wish she'd perform Love Tried To Welcome Me one day. I'm not holding my breath, though (no matter how much you guys wish I did ). But that's the level of songwriting I expect from her.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

I don't think I was the one who brought drama into this thread. I simply voiced my opinion and some fans didn't like it and instead of attempting to discuss with me and challenge my views they resorted to what I think you mean when you say "drama".

So who would your dream producer for M's next album be? I'd be curious to hear more about that.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

the unseenhand was banned from Tribe ages ago, thank god LOL!

But I wasn't banned by Tribe for expressing my dissenting opinions.

I was banned by Tribe when one of the moderators mocked and ridiculed another person for how she looks and I called him out on it. I don't regret one bit defending another person from such a vile and disgusting personal attack.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

You know what? I'm all for one expressing their opinion on a public forum, but it's pretty safe to say when you enter a community called MADONNANATION, it's expected you're gonna get some opposition from fans who question your motives and why you come here (with very few posts, I might add) and seem to be pointing out the negatives about Madonna rather your appreciation. Of course, I don't expect any fan to love everything she does, but it's just a bit peculiar that someone with less than 30 post (at the time of the post I'm quoting), has done more criticizing Madonna's career.

And yes, you implied I was trying to shame you for enjoying ROL, LAP and EROTICA. Yet, you turn around and pretty much did the same by stating that you're not some "brainwashed idiot" fan. You can say it was a general response, but again, the purpose of saying that was for what? Also, all your posts seem to keep criticizing Madonna while subtly making digs at her fans. Hmmm?

What is the reason for most of my posts being critical of Madonna? Because I've been responding to other people who replied to that one post of mine. Please note that I've been criticizing Madonna for basically only one thing here. I've been talking about that same one issue here so it's pretty understandable that I haven't suddenly changed my mind about it. It's not like I've gone for full-blown attack here criticizing everything she does. I would have been perfectly fine at making only that one post in this thread.

I'm not surprised by the opposition. Don't assume that I am. Quite contrary, I've come to expect it. I've been posting on Madonna forums for well over a decade (yes, nabguy, under the same name). I know that my views are on several issues regarding Madonna aren't going to match the consensus and I'm perfectly fine with that. I don't see the point of taking part in discussion where I'd agree with everyone and everyone would agree with me. What's the point?

Oh, and have my digs at her fans been subtle? I thought "brainwashed idiots" was quite direct. And again, I emphasize that it wasn't directed at anyone special nor at every fan. But there is a culture (not just among Madonna fans, mind you) where some think it's treasonous to speak out against the person they idolize. It's very obvious in this thread as well. And don't ever think I'm complaining. It's just an observation.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

The producers of the songs said she put in input so she gets writing credits. Bullshit

Because your sacastic condescending tone towards madonna and her recent work, saying "one who claims to be an artist" so because she's not doing what you want her to do in her creative process that's makes her not an artist and she should not be commended? Because she didnt write every song it's half assed?

Nobody here praises every single thing she does. You can be dissapointed with her recent efforts all you want. But you aren't gonna come here and criticize madonna and claim she's not an artist anymore based off of your standards. That's grade A bullshit.

She also got a writing credit for Don't Tell Me which was entirely written by Joe Henry. Enough said.

I don't know how my post have had a "sacastic" tone towards Madonna and her recent work. I don't see that. Neither should you. Unless you have a different definition for sarcasm (I think that's what you meant).

Why can't I come and critcize Madonna? And why is that criticism "grade A bullshit"?

Instead of being 3rd grader, argue against me. Show me what you've got. That's called discussion. Can you participate? Or just repeat what I've said and say "bullshit" in different ways? You're not putting much "effort" ( ) into bringing something worthwhile this discussion.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

When did she claim she wrote the whole album on her own?

Go the fuck somewhere else and get off of madonna nation!

I miswrote that. I meant she claims authorship on every song when the truth is very different.

Why should I go somewhere else?

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

Note BOLD, I stopped right there because I am not sure why that was even brought up. I never and I don't think anyone in this thread was talking about loving everything she did. In fact, I have said in this very thread how I am not a big fan of Erotica, but recognize her song writing talent on that album.

And I never said anyone should be ashamed for liking any album. Seems you're reading more into than what I said. But isn't that a bit hypocritical of you to even bring up since the part I bolded, you went on this rant about not loving everything she does and insinuating some of us are "brainwashed idiots" for being devoted fans?? Who is doing the "shaming" again??

The fact is you don't know anymore than the rest of us how much more effort and time she put into the last two albums compared to past albums. Just because you dislike an album of hers, doesn't mean she spent less time and effort on it.

You implied something about people who question the amount of her effort not being "into Madonna anymore". So I understand that as if you dare to question her greatness, you're not a fan anymore. Therefore, the comment on not being a brainwashed idiot who loves everything she does. Again, I wasn't directing that at anyone.

I never said that you said one should be ashamed of loving ROL, Erotica or LAP. And no, I wasn't being hypocritical at all.

I know as much as anyone of you can know if you want to find the information, connect the dots and use common sense. It's all out there and you can find it if you want it. It's very clear that she didn't put as much creative effort into her most recent albums as she did to LAP, Erotica and ROL. I can't make you see it if you don't want to see it. But the truth is really out there. The same thing can be said of everything she's been doing in the last 10 years. Do you want to talk about her music videos? Do you think she puts as much effort into them as she did in the 90s, for example? Or are you going to give me excuses for her lack of effort?

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

They're uncomfortable when they talk about working with Madonna? Really now. Prove it.

It's on YouTube. It shouldn't be hard to find for anyone who is really interested in it but here it is anyway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd6e-AS16hM

Look at their expressions. Read their body language. Pay attention to the words they use.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

So because she didn't write the whole album she's no longer an artist?

And she does not have the facility with words or metaphors on her own to write that song? Do you hear yourself?

What's with repeating what I've written? Yes, I wrote it and meant it.

I don't know why anyone who calls herself an artist (and Madonna likes to do that a lot) should be proud of doing only a "third" (that's your estimation) of the work and then claim authorship for full 100%. I can't respect her for that or give her credit for that. Nor should anyone. Why should I? Seriously, why should I? Is that really a great achievement?

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

"She put as little Effort as she can get away with" huh?????????

I...........she wrote a third of the album.

Wow. A third? You say that like it's a good accomplishment and something to be proud of for someone who calls herself an artist.

Like I said... She put as little effort into making both HC and MDNA as she could get away with.

I'll give you this much... The best line on entire MDNA might from IA: "Saying your name is somewhere between a prayer and a shout". I say "might" because I've forgotten a lot of that album. The last time I listened to it and most of its songs was at the end of March 2012.

Oh, and as for Masterpiece... Of course, the writers say she wrote it with them. But watch them being interviewed about it and how uncomfortable they are talking about working with Madonna. Read between the lines. Read their body language. Heck, read the lyrics. Madonna today hasn't got the facility with words or metaphors on her own to write that song.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

See, I don't get when people say she hasn't put much effort in certain albums? I think that's just an absurd statement to make for those who aren't really into Madonna much anymore.

If you can be sure of one thing about me, you can be sure that I won't ever be into Madonna for the sake of being into her. I'm not a brainwashed idiot who loves everything she does. She isn't perfect and I don't need or want her to be. I'm not devoted to her the way a lot of her fans are. I'm not directing this at anyone particular.

I never said she didn't put any effort into her most recent albums. What I said was that she put as little effort into them as she could get away with. The evidence is there for everyone to find if they want to see it. Glinda said something about no producer being unknown anymore. That's true. A lot of them are on Twitter, for example. Go ask that guy who wrote Girl Gone Vile how much of that song is written by him and what did Madonna do. Same with Masterpiece. Madonna got songwriting credits but it was quite obvious it was mostly if not completely written by the people she shared her GG with. Yes, you can point to individual songs that M had more input in but even they aren't really anything to write home about. And btw, isn't quite sad that you compare these recent albums and their creative process to Like a Virgin (the album)? Shouldn't we expect more from her now than what she did in the beginning of her career? Especially when she became a completely different artist than what she was in 1984.

Yes, I do think Ray of Light, Like a Prayer and Erotica are her best albums. You refer to that like it's something to be ashamed of. Anyway, I think it's quite clear that she put way more effort into those albums than she's put into her most recent works. She's got a family now. She's got kids. I respect she hasn't got as much time as she used to. But on the other hand, it's her job. If she does it badly or not as well as she can (and we all know she can do better than what she's done in recent years), I won't hesitate to say it.

And big yes to what vocalism and Nonoka have said.

[My dream producer for the next album is...]

Of course, I've always said that maturity and intelligence need not mean an album filled with "Live to Tell." "Ray of Light" and even "Get Together" are great examples of how she channel all of her strengths at the same time.

Precisely. You get it. Fun and silly songs can be done in a mature and intelligent way. They can be as creative and clever as songs that are referred to as "serious" or "deep" here. You don't need to forget that you're an intelligent person when you write and create a song that is meant to be fun.

In fact, it's almost more important to remember you're intelligent when you create fun songs than it is when you write more serious songs. For example, just think about humour in general. It's tough. It's hard to be funny. Think about any truly great comedian. They are all really smart if not even intelligent. You can't be stupid and do well in comedy.