TheUnseenHand
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Posts posted by TheUnseenHand
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That BAT performance is to die for! The whole Bob Fosse-esque choreography and juxtaposing family values with violent and macho imagery from Clockwork Orange... Love it!
I love the song, too... I wish Madonna would do more funk or at least funkier songs.
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Secondly, sales may not matter to you, but apparently validation from others does.
Okay, one clarification.
No, validation from others doesn't matter to me either. I'm only interested in the quality of Madonna's work. That's what matters. I can form my own opinion, views and thoughts all by myself and I don't mind if only I have that particular opinion.
But you overlooked my take on this because it was just an opinion and not a fact. Therefore, I mentioned general opinion and consensus in this discussion which indicate the same thing I earlier said and that is that the quality of her work has gone down and she doesn't get the same respect for her work that she has before. She's done scandalous things in the past but people never really had a problem with her music the way they do today.
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And just like Gutten, NOTHING you say is fact. It's all based on your opinion. Art is completely subjective. Just because you thought S&S was a low point doesn't make it a flop, just because I feel like Erotica was a step down musically from everything she had done at that point doesn't mean it was a flop. You will NEVER get everyone to agree on the artistic merits of a particular piece of work. To me a "flop" is a commercial failure, not something I personally don't like. You can argue all day and night about MDNA and HC but the facts are STILL what I pointed out in my initial response. From a business and commercial standpoint......and even a critical standpoint overall.....her last two albums were not flops.
But again, they are just sales numbers. They have no importance to me nor should they have any importance to anyone. Why should we care how much money Madonna makes out of her albums? It doesn't mean the product is good, does it? The sales numbers and charts are nothing but PR. We should concentrate on demanding the product to be good. Even if we don't talk about artistic quality, there's still evidence that quality control is failing. For example, MDNA Tour releases (which even Madonna commented on). But I'm not interested in that.
Besides, MDNA was wasn't even in top 20 when it comes to best selling albums of 2012. And the commercial success of albums today isn't really defined by the sales of the actual album but by the success of its singles. And the MDNA singles flopped. The HC singles besides 4M didn't do much better. But again, this doesn't matter to me. Whether her singles flop or not is irrelevant to me.
Also, the way you interpret the sales is also based on your own perceptions. You may think HC and MDNA did well commercially because that's how you choose to look at the numbers. I don't think the numbers are good when you look at the whole product which is albums and their singles. Those numbers wouldn't impress me if I cared about them. So what you write isn't entirely based just on facts but also on how you interpret them and how you choose to perceive them. And that's ok.
And yes, Sherlock, nothing I said was a fact (and I never said they were... I think responding with "that's just your opinion, not a fact" is one of the most boring responses nowadays in any forum but I digress...). Yes, art is subjective. That's not a big revelation. I don't need to convince anyone that the artistic quality of her work has gone down. The lyrics aren't as good as they used to be. The music videos aren't as good as they used to be. Not even the music or the production is as good as it used to be. I don't need to get anyone agree with me. Art is subjective, like I said that is true. But how have we as a whole come to value Salvador Dali, for example? Why do people consider Vertigo, for example, to be one of the greatest films of all-time? Why do people consider "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" to be one of the best albums ever? Because enough people share the same opinion. Because enough people value those high. Because enough people respect them.
Metacritic is somewhat useful source for evaluating the quality of the album, for instance. HC scored 65 and MDNA 64. Not great although not bad either. But should that average score be good enough?
Also, Madonna's albums recently haven't gotten much respect outside her fans. And even among her fans the reaction to her albums and work in general as been mixed. Some fans blame other fans for those mixed reactions because it's easier to point the finger at someone like, well, me than it's to point at Madonna. But that is one way of evaluating the artistic success of an album. How much respect does it get from people who aren't fans? When Madonna does thins as well as she did with Ray of Light, she gets respect. Music and COADF got respect from outside her fans. HC? No. MDNA? No.
So while art is subjective and my opinion is just one. But there is also a thing called concensus. That doesn't work in the favor of HC nor MDNA.
EDIT: But we can agree to disagree about these things. I don't want to get dragged into a fight that lasts for pages. I don't want to wallow in negativity. I'm not interested that. It takes too much time and energy. I've shared my take on this (these issues?) and I'll leave it at that.
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I can't say I'm happy about her working with a DJ again. But I guess all she wants to do nowadays to record music to work out to.
MDNA didn't flop. The singles underperformed but the album itself held its own and became one of the top selling albums of 2012. I love how people say "hasn't she learned her lesson from the last 2 albums?" Learned what lesson?? Both of those albums were among the top selling in their respective years of release, in the case of HC, it produced one of the biggest singles of her career and the tours in support of those albums grossed over $700 million. In what alternate reality are these stats of flop projects??
Well, at best sale numbers are nothing but PR.
Sticky & Sweet Tour may be the highest grossing tour in history by a solo artist but that says nothing about the artistic quality of it. I say it's an artistic failure. Same with the albums. Sale numbers don't mean shit. Erotica was a commercial flop but it is one of the greatest artistic achievements in her career.
If I had energy I would argue that HC and MDNA were commercial flops but I'm not interested in getting into that fight. But I do say they both are artistically low points among her albums. I hope her upcoming album won't join them.
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Express Yourself
Bad Girl
Bedtime Story
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Borderline
Material Girl
Papa Don't Preach
(I have no idea what the videos for DYU and ITG are like...I assume it's all DSS for ITG and some kind of a montage video for DYU...)
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Oh, come on, Grammys, you're not going to fool me to watch your wreck of a show. Stop trying.
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Beautiful Stranger, of course. It's not even a real contest.
BS is an amazing pop song but it seems she needs to perform it again for people to remember that.
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TheUnseenHand have you explored America and Asia too?
I have, yes.
TUH, what's the origin of your nickname? And why does it bother you if we call you just Unseen?
Because "The" is part of it (and so is "Hand"). I don't call you "af" or "a".
It's a reference to this myth regarding my favorite sports team. They've been incredibly successful over the years and during their gloriest years they always found a way to win, no matter what. All the weird and lucky bounces in their favor prompted people to talk about ghosts (aka. former great players who have passed away) helping them to win. Other say it's "the unseen hand" that is helping them.
What's your fave tour?
That's cheating but I'll respond anyways.
Drowned World Tour is my favorite.
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TheUnseenHand which parts of Europe have you visited?
It'd be easier to say where I haven't been.
I've been to most countries in Western, Southern, Northern and Central Europe but I haven't conquered the Eastern parts yet. Portugal is one example of where I haven't been to but would love to go. I think I love Italy the most. In Europe that is the country where I'm always wanting to go back to.
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I'll respond to all of your questions if you just spell my name right.
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So I can see what you look like.
I like guys who don't look like drag queens so you're probably hot. Anyway it's a local custom.I thought you believe I'm Christopher.
Anyway, even though we met just a couple of days ago I think you should know by now that I don't play by the rules (that I didn't make) or follow local customs. I'm cordial and considerate but I don't do what's expected of me. That includes posting pictures of myself because I don't need the attention. People are left to think I'm probably hot or probably not and it doesn't matter anything to me. In a time when people post their entire life in pictures to all over internet, I value anonymity and privacy.
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Send photo. You may do so here.
http://forums.madonnanation.com/index.php?showtopic=45054&page=9
No fakes please.
Now why would I do that?
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Didn't anybody tell you who is
around these parts? Well it isn't you...Umm, I don't need you to tell that I'm not an ugly drag queen. I don't do drag and to be precise, I don't even smoke.
Oh, wait, you weren't refering to being an ugly drag queen, were you? Awkward....
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Invisible thing at end of arm is bringing them factoids!
Hey, didn't I tell you guys already that it's The Invisible thing at the end of arm!
Can a mod please pin this post? Please?
Could they also pin the post where I say that I never said she didn't deserve a writing credit for DTM? Please?
Anyway, thanks for the compliments, guys, but I don't want to produce her. I'd rather be her manager. Because unlike Oseary, I respect Madonna enough to be honest with her and tell her when her work isn't good enough. And probably soon after telling her that she'd ask me to join Freddie and Angela. Oh well.
(PS. Oh, it's been brought to my attention that since this part of the forum is open for everyone this discussion is being stalked by Tribers because of me. Aaaww, isn't that sweet? Just admit it. You miss me. And I guess that means you love me, you really love me after all. But you know me... You know that I don't fucking care about being liked. But cheers anyways!)
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This was easy. For me it's I Want You. I love the original by Marvin Gaye but I love Madonna's version even more. I think Madonna's vocal performance and interpretation suits the lyrics better. She elevates the seriousness and the emotional quality of the lyrics to whole another level. She makes you hear what she's singing and she makes you feel what she's feeling. It's a great performance by her. And I got to give credit to Massive Attack. They produced the song to perfection.
But honestly, nothing needs to be said about her version of IWY. When you listen to it, you hear it. It's all there.
(And if anyone wonders what I want from Madonna... I think this song has a lot of it that I find missing from her most recent work. Great lyrics, amazing production, her voice that sounds natural and isn't computerized to death etc.)
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Unseen hand have you visited the other threads yet?
I have.
What? Are you interested in stalking me? Or just asking to know which threads to avoid?
Btw, it's TheUnseenHand, thank you very much. TUH is fine, too. A lot of you people seem to have a problem writing my name properly.
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If you state something is a fact then it's imperative that you have evidence to back that claim up.
Please, tell me something that I don't already know.
What exactly are you refering to? What is that "something" that I've stated to be a fact for which you need me to provide evidence to?
And why don't you ask that from everyone in this thread? Why just me? Not that I mind being singled out, I'm fine with it, but it almost seems like you want evidence only when it's for something that doesn't fit your perfect picture of Madonna.
Now that you know the difference would you like to change your statement?
I still don't know what statement of mine you're refering to is or which ones I should change. Nothing you've said actually proves anything I've said to be incorrect.
I also wouldn't consider Madonna to have been brought up in an upper middle class household. If that's how you want to define it then knock yourself out but I can discredit your theory immediately. Just look at the lives of her siblings. They are not privileged lifestyles.
Um, and what exactly has that got to do with anything? Why should they live priviledged lifestyles? Just because they come from a upper middle class family? Now that kind of a suggestion is just plain stupid, don't you think?
And it certainly doesn't discredit the fact that Madonna grew up in a upper middle class family.
The case wasn't rags to riches for me. That implies something overnight and without difficulty. Instead it was a story of hard work, wit and determination leading to immense success. So take your facts and stick them up your ass. :-)
So now you acknowledge that they are facts? That's mighty classy of you. And it's also very nice to know how much you care for facts.
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Once you present evidence of these facts I'll give you credit. Until then you're just a jealous wannabe.
And I'm waiting Madonna to provide the evidence first. And the facts and the truth.
Just kidding, people, just kidding. Lighten up.
But seriously, you don't even agree with me that her story isn't really "rags to riches"? Or that she isn't exactly truthful and honest when she says that she comes from a lower middle class family? Her family was clearly upper middle class. Dare I say it? Christopher says that, too. There. I said it.
Oh, I don't need you or anyone else to give me credit for anything. I don't need it and I'm not asking for it. Ever.
(And what the hell would I be jealous about? And of whom? Oh well, not expecting)
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Anyway, I am not going to keep debating with you as you obviously have your own views as seeing Madonna as someone who wants to play a false victim. Something I think she has never done in her life and I admire her greatly for it.
What is this talk about Madonna playing "a false victim" or me saying she is one?A false victim of what? Because I'm not at all suggesting she's "a false victim". I simply don't get what you're refering to. I really don't.
And I don't get why you guys upset with me. What did I say wrong now? I've already explained myself that I don't think there's anything bad about Madonna fabricating stories and creating this mythology. It's interesting to me! Like I said, we all do that! It's part of human psychology. I'm not accusing of her anything and I'm not blaming for anything when she does that. It's part of her as much as it is part of us all.
See, for me Madonna is a human being. She's not perfect and that fascinates me. I'm happy that she isn't perfect because that makes her so much more interesting.
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The Unseen Hand, Why are you certain that Christopher is telling the truth rather than Madonna?
I'm not saying she didn't stuggle in NYC but overall it's all about what's more plausible to me.
Like Christopher says, do you think their father didn't care? Didn't give her money? etc.
Do you really think she arrived in NYC with only 34 dollars and ate popcorn to survive? I mean, honestly, do you believe that and perceive it to be plausible and accurate?
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And to make myself perfectly clear I'll say this:
When I say that Madonna has been creating this mythological story of herself that isn't accurate and necessarily true in all counts, it is not a criticism.
Let's repeat that together. It's not a criticism.
It's an observation and I'm interested in what people tell and want others to believe about themselves. We all present a story of ourselves to other people and none of us tell entirely accurate or truthful version of our life. We polish it. Nobody posts bad pictures of themselves on Facebook or wherever, We want to present a certain kind of image of ourself. We tell stories of ourselves that create the kind of presentation of ourselves that we want to show to other people. That's how we all are and Madonna is no different. She isn't a saint and she does what every person on this Earth does. Like Dr. House says: everybody lies.
Saying that isn't a criticism. But it's very telling that some of you perceive it to be negative and think I'm attacking her again.
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"she wasn't starving"
Even that woman who took her under her wing talked about how skinny and underfed she looked, and that she wanted to get her out of that one room that could barely fit a single bed and a suitcase in.
And why are you so obsessed with wanting to make Madonna seem to be a liar and a fake victim ?
what's next? you already went to the next topic claiming she's stealing writer's credits so what are you gonna tackle next time? Im sure the adoptions will come up soon enough.
Your motives are really fucked up for a supposed "fan".
It would be so much easier to have a discussion with you guys if you paid attention to what I've said instead of creating this fantasy version of me. I can't respond to things that you invent and fantasize me saying.
What is a "fake victim"? What are you refering to?
Why would I criticize her for the adoptions? If you want to concentrate on me and if you want to discuss with me, I'd really appreciate if you'd concentrate on what's actually been said. Most of the things you attach to me have nothing to do with me. I haven't said them.
Oh, and I'm paraphrasing Christopher here in regards to her beginnings in NYC. Notice that. Which version of that story sounds more plausible? It's quite obvious.
Again, it's not about pointing and accusing that she's a liar. It's about understanding that she's been creating this mythology of her. It's fascinating side of her and the whole "she's a master mainipulator" thing thay's been said of her. It's quite genius, actually. It's part of her real story. It's media manipulation at its best. It's shrewd move in those terms. It's glamorizing and romanticizing her story into something that it really wasn't. People love "rags to riches" type of stories so it's no wonder why Madonna wants people to believe something that isn't factually accurate.
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And TheUnseenHand: about your bullshit on M: I actually read on a flickr account years ago about women sharing old pics of Madonna in new york and in the comments they were laughing about how they were kicking her with their heels in her stomach and pushed her from the stairs every time they saw her! Never once did I see Madonna mention such events, you know why? Cuz she's NOT a victim and doesn't want to be one. If she'd have been a rich girl living in new york with the right connections instead of a girl from detroit I'm sure she would have owned up to that as well because that's who she is. You may love people who are victims or victimise yourself for sympathy but some people actually don't do that bullshit.
I have no idea what that has to do with anything I've been talking about.
Then again, your entire post reveals that you haven't paid attention to what I've actually trying to say. But more power to you!
Elena Roger - You Must Love Me (Evita On Broadway)
in ARCHIVE - Madonna
Posted · Edited by TheUnseenHand
Ummm... No.
What is with these singers who sing the words but who miss the emotional side of them and what they mean to the character? Talk about not understanding or perhaps even not recognizing the situation Eva is in... She's dying! And this gal sings like she's on picnic on a Sunday afternoon.
Madonna's greatest talent as a singer is her ability to convery emotions through her singing. She pays attention to what she sings about. She understands the context, the feelings and the emotions behind the words. I Want You is a great example of this. That's what I miss. That's what I want to hear from her. Emotions. I want her to rely on her strengths and her singing voice is one of them. I've said it many times but she has the most gorgeous singing voice and she doesn't need to hide it behind any kinds of computerized effects or vocoder or whatever. Her voice is perfect as it is (at least in the studio).