"Betrayal"

[bard]

the reviews seem to think "betrayal" is about her stepmother joan, presumably because of the line "you'll never take my mother's place." but the rest of the song sounds like a love song - and what exactly did joan do that was a betrayal? do we think it's actually about her?

[acko]

It's one of my favorites. 

I think she cited her passing in an interview in the same breath as Christopher's death and how those tragic events informed her writing. 

I don't see how this could be a love song. 

Definitely 'The Ballad of Joan'. 

[bard]

Just now, acko said:

It's one of my favorites. 

I think she cited her passing in an interview in the same breath as Christopher's death and how those tragic events informed her writing. 

I don't see how this could be a love song. 

Definitely 'The Ballad of Joan'. 

it seems very harsh though. i knew they weren't close and she had resentments growing up, naturally. but what was the "betrayal"? what was the "fall from grace"? the reason i said it feels like a long song is because she opens with a reference to "the book of love," which is typically a reference to romantic love.  

[acko]

1 minute ago, bard said:

it seems very harsh though. i knew they weren't close and she had resentments growing up, naturally. but what was the "betrayal"? what was the "fall from grace"? the reason i said it feels like a long song is because she opens with a reference to "the book of love," which is typically a reference to romantic love.  

Well there's that other interview I forget which one... Where she says betrayal was a theme in her life and her mother passing was an example of how she was betrayed by life... Anyway Joan showed up with a baby in the Ciccone household and she was asked to call her mom. 

I'm sure she's taken creative license to turn it into a song. I wouldn't take every sentence quite so literally. 

Unless she ghost wrote... Life With My Sister Madonna 

[Kilt]

I think it's about M singing from the perspective of her younger self and her older self and coming to resolution and forgiveness

[acko]

1 minute ago, Kilt said:

I think it's about M singing from the perspective of her younger self and her older self and coming to resolution and forgiveness

Yes

[Cerise]

Hmmm, “and by the last page you will not be mentioned” seems like she will never forgive her actually

[acko]

1 minute ago, Cerise said:

Hmmm, “and by the last page you will not be mentioned” seems like she will never forgive her actually

And where the hell have you been!? 

 

[jonski43]

1 minute ago, Cerise said:

Hmmm, “and by the last page you will not be mentioned” seems like she will never forgive her actually

She didn't actually publicly acknowledge her death from what I remember.

She mentioned Joan in a recent interview and I was shocked it was negative about her childhood but I can't remember what she said. 

[Cerise]

2 minutes ago, jonski43 said:

She didn't actually publicly acknowledge her death from what I remember.

She mentioned Joan in a recent interview and I was shocked it was negative about her childhood but I can't remember what she said. 

It’s a very new perspective, I really thought they worked things out

[vesper_wolf]

I said this in the other thread too but I personally didn't think this was about Joan for a split second. I honestly think it was her addressing the media - or her fans in general even - and both rightly so. Especially as she mentions losing faith on both sides.

[Kilt]

This bit at the end is just BEYOND

And now we're dancing, yes, we're dancing We're together, forever

You betrayed me, you've enslaved me We're together 'til the end

And we're dancing, yes, we're dancing We're together, forever

Used to hate you, I don't hate you Blocked forever 'til the end

[Carta]

Would she really be that harsh about Joan on record when it would obviously cause distress for her father and half-siblings (and siblings, since those still alive had a close relationship with Joan)?  The "you'll never be my mother" line seems too literal.

[systemvalues]

1 minute ago, Carta said:

Would she really be that harsh about Joan on record when it would obviously cause distress for her father and half-siblings (and siblings, since those still alive had a close relationship with Joan)?  The "you'll never be my mother" line seems too literal.

Perhaps a female friend with whom she has broken off the relationship?

[Carta]

2 minutes ago, systemvalues said:

Perhaps a female friend with whom she has broken off the relationship?

Yes - I really think this is more likely.  The rest of the lyrics just don't give a "step-mother" vibe at all.

[Kilt]

2 minutes ago, systemvalues said:

Perhaps a female friend with whom she has broken off the relationship?

Gwyneth ???

[systemvalues]

3 minutes ago, Carta said:

Yes - I really think this is more likely.  The rest of the lyrics just don't give a "step-mother" vibe at all.

We can also speculate about who it might be by looking at her famous friends, but it could just as well be someone who isn't famous.

[runa]

Just read the lyrics on Genius and yes, this is very mysterious. I don’t think she speaks about Joan, though, or not only about her. Just like in Oh Father, some parts were about her dad, but some were about ex-lovers or men in general.

I think we shouldn’t take it too literally. 

[systemvalues]

3 minutes ago, Kilt said:

Gwyneth ???

These are the questions a journalist should ask M.

[Kilt]

M might still be holding the grudge when Joan slapped her face because Nonnie refused to wear the same dress to mass as her sisters.

[Paul]

41 minutes ago, acko said:

And where the hell have you been!? 

 

Yes where, @Cerise?

[bard]

47 minutes ago, vesper_wolf said:

I said this in the other thread too but I personally didn't think this was about Joan for a split second. I honestly think it was her addressing the media - or her fans in general even - and both rightly so. Especially as she mentions losing faith on both sides.

+1

 

31 minutes ago, Carta said:

Would she really be that harsh about Joan on record when it would obviously cause distress for her father and half-siblings (and siblings, since those still alive had a close relationship with Joan)?  The "you'll never be my mother" line seems too literal.

agree! curious to see if the song comes up in any other interviews. i still want a zane lowe interview, even though he kind of sucks. he would ask all the questions we're wondering.

[Supernatural]

Haven't heard the song yet, but you'll never take the place of my mother could be anything she tried to fill the void with (fame, etc) 

[sydneydude]

1 hour ago, Kilt said:

This bit at the end is just BEYOND

And now we're dancing, yes, we're dancing We're together, forever

You betrayed me, you've enslaved me We're together 'til the end

And we're dancing, yes, we're dancing We're together, forever

Used to hate you, I don't hate you Blocked forever 'til the end

I haven't heard the album yet. Will wait until tomorrow. However, it sounds like she talking about Christopher no? She mentioned several times in her post when he passed about them dancing. 

[Cerise]

5 minutes ago, sydneydude said:

I haven't heard the album yet. Will wait until tomorrow. However, it sounds like she talking about Christopher no? She mentioned several times in her post when he passed about them dancing. 

Ohhh that makes sense, given she mentioned “Fragile” and she mentioned Joan I assumed it’s about her, but it could be more about Chris! Almost all the lyrics make sense in this case 

[ThomasW]

a friend told me the track uses this too... is it true? Love it if so!! can't wait 

 

[runa]

Just now, ThomasW said:

a friend told me the track uses this too... is it true? Love it if so!! can't wait 

 

It is indeed. And it's very well done. 

[runa]

It would make sense it is about Christopher and if that's the truth it makes it even sadder. 

[ThomasW]

5 minutes ago, runa said:

It is indeed. And it's very well done. 

OMG imagine a mash up with Tori's Battle of the Trees! 

[bard]

30 minutes ago, sydneydude said:

I haven't heard the album yet. Will wait until tomorrow. However, it sounds like she talking about Christopher no? She mentioned several times in her post when he passed about them dancing. 

yeah that makes more sense, but then it's odd that she would have two songs about him. if past is prologue, these songs are probably a mishmash of different experiences/people. she said "fragile" was partly written (presumably not about hime) and when she spoke to chris on the phone she went back and finished it.