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Madonna for New York Times Mag (Madonna NOT happy)


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21 minutes ago, air1975 said:

I think that's a tricky question to answer - I don't think there is a solid and easily discernible line. 

 

Of course, there is a difference between saying "I'm dead tired" and "I'm working so hard, I feel like I'm in a Nazi concentration camp".. where exactly that line is - who knows? I guess its a matter of personal judgment, and sensitivity (either over-sensitivity or under-sensitivity). 

 

I know I am in the minority on this board - but I feel that her comparing disappointment at an article/journalist to being raped was extreme, and makes her seem petulant and illogical. I also want the general public  to see the tender, warm, thoughtful, and generous side of Madge - the article did not show that. The article did paint her as demanding and fearsome in some ways. Madonna then reinforced that image with her social media rant. It frustrates me as a fan because I think this era is so terrific - and this stupid NYT controversy is taking bandwidth away from her amazing art. 

Peace to all fellow fans. 

I agree that nonsense like this takes away from the amazing art of this era! Fair enough everyone has their own respective lines as to what THEY may say but at what point does just plain old common sense kick in? Who here ACTUALLY think Madonna would flat out say (no metaphors) that this experience was WORSE than her ACTUAL rape?? I just can't wrap my head around the thought that someone would actually perceive her comment that way. Clearly, she was pissed off when she posted that msg and I'm sure it was partially a "heat of the moment" kind of thing....which is SO MUCH easier to do now that we always have our trusty little phones beside us to say whatever we want, whenever we want. 

I suppose the bee in my bonnet with this is that HOW do people take things so literally?? It's like a blatant refusal to understand metaphors and I just don't understand that. I'm not even arguing she couldn't have stated her point in a more succinct way because she certainly could've. However, I KNOW what she means with her comment. It's not rocket science....and I suspect most people that are "outraged" by the comment ALSO understand THE POINT she's making, even if it wasn't said in the most eloquent way. At the end of the day though, what she seems to be getting at is that she felt VIOLATED.....and that seems to be a common feeling among those that have actually been raped, a feeling of violation. 

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47 minutes ago, Samo said:

So this Denise Welch in Australia on a show called Loose Women, just went on a nasty anti Madonna rant and mocked her "old tits"

 

Wow, once again, women hating on and attacking other women

 

Let's blame the patriarchy!

 

Do you understand the concept of patriarchy in the first place??  Patriarchy does not mean "the category of men", it has a distinct cultural and historical connotation to it. God

Secondly, once and for all, not all women attack other women. It depends on every single person. Same for men. Gay or straight, liberal or not, these are all labels. You keep reinforcing these generalisations, it's silly and gross. Regardless of whether we think Madonna was too harsh or not you are totally missing the main gripe of her post with the content of this publication in particular

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30 minutes ago, jamesshot said:

What other artist could survive and endure such treatment? Not only survive and endure, but to go on to have a career where she has no equal on every level. I don't know how she does or did it. 

Can anyone think of an artist who could have thrived with what Madonna has had to deal with in the press?

 

👍

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29 minutes ago, Kurt420 said:

I agree that nonsense like this takes away from the amazing art of this era! Fair enough everyone has their own respective lines as to what THEY may say but at what point does just plain old common sense kick in? Who here ACTUALLY think Madonna would flat out say (no metaphors) that this experience was WORSE than her ACTUAL rape?? I just can't wrap my head around the thought that someone would actually perceive her comment that way. Clearly, she was pissed off when she posted that msg and I'm sure it was partially a "heat of the moment" kind of thing....which is SO MUCH easier to do now that we always have our trusty little phones beside us to say whatever we want, whenever we want. 

I suppose the bee in my bonnet with this is that HOW do people take things so literally?? It's like a blatant refusal to understand metaphors and I just don't understand that. I'm not even arguing she couldn't have stated her point in a more succinct way because she certainly could've. However, I KNOW what she means with her comment. It's not rocket science....and I suspect most people that are "outraged" by the comment ALSO understand THE POINT she's making, even if it wasn't said in the most eloquent way. At the end of the day though, what she seems to be getting at is that she felt VIOLATED.....and that seems to be a common feeling among those that have actually been raped, a feeling of violation. 

For whatever reason, people react to Madonna like this. 

My mother always takes things Madonna does literally and always reacts like a hater when she is not. Nor is she anywhere near a prude. Yet, with Madonna, she is always going on about how beautiful she thinks she is and how she doesn't understand why she says or does the things she does. She always says she wishes she would dress appropriately and stop saying the things she says (like cursing) because she doesn't need to. She's been saying this for decades. Yet, I point out how she loves Prince and how hypocritical her comments are. She just says it is different. And its not she holds females or males to different standards. There are female actresses she likes. One day we were watching some interview on a talk show and the actress cursed. Of course my mom laughed. I asked her how she would feel if Madonna said that and she never has an answer. It is infuriating but I have so many friends who do the same thing.

What is it about Madonna that people want her to act differently yet they tolerate and even celebrate the same things in others? I'm just so tired of it. LOL

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3 hours ago, articunocc said:

i was raped man and i think the way she uses the word rape is tacky and tasteless and cringe, she should retire it because having a lukewarm interview on the new york times isn't the same as getting raped... end of

I'm sorry to hear that, but that doesn't change anything about the use of language. A metaphor is metaphor.

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15 minutes ago, jamesshot said:

For whatever reason, people react to Madonna like this. 

My mother always takes things Madonna does literally and always reacts like a hater when she is not. Nor is she anywhere near a prude. Yet, with Madonna, she is always going on about how beautiful she thinks she is and how she doesn't understand why she says or does the things she does. She always says she wishes she would dress appropriately and stop saying the things she says (like cursing) because she doesn't need to. She's been saying this for decades. Yet, I point out how she loves Prince and how hypocritical her comments are. She just says it is different. And its not she holds females or males to different standards. There are female actresses she likes. One day we were watching some interview on a talk show and the actress cursed. Of course my mom laughed. I asked her how she would feel if Madonna said that and she never has an answer. It is infuriating but I have so many friends who do the same thing.

What is it about Madonna that people want her to act differently yet they tolerate and even celebrate the same things in others? I'm just so tired of it. LOL

YES!! Exactly this!!

It's like she's held to some different standard for some reason....I just don't get it but yes, I'm also so tired of it! 

I suppose this is an age old question at this point but, really, now more than ever I feel the need to ask.....what is it about Madonna that bothers people so much?? It goes far beyond the "she's a powerful woman" thing I think. To quote the queen herself, I'm mystified by it and not sure if we'll ever fully get it. 

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14 minutes ago, Kurt420 said:

YES!! Exactly this!!

It's like she's held to some different standard for some reason....I just don't get it but yes, I'm also so tired of it! 

I suppose this is an age old question at this point but, really, now more than ever I feel the need to ask.....what is it about Madonna that bothers people so much?? It goes far beyond the "she's a powerful woman" thing I think. To quote the queen herself, I'm mystified by it and not sure if we'll ever fully get it. 

They often don't even understand what exactly it is they want her to do they just want her to act differently. She is held to a different, and bizarre, standard but no one can articulate what the standard is. LOL And it applies to every single thing she does. You could have 27 different stars of all ages and genders cursing and saying lewd things and most wouldn't bat an eye. Yet, if Madonna does it, they react negatively. 

Sometimes I think it is because she is on such a next level as far as stardom that they almost, subconsciously in most cases, they see her as something so special they want her to act exactly with no exceptions, the way they want her to act. She cannot deviate. I DON'T GET IT! lol

We are both tired of it but I am beyond tired of it. I'm to the point I don't want to see anyone's opinion on her except here and even then, sometimes I don't even here. 

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96c1b9064a9e47468e565d100209147f-superJumbo.jpg

For those of us who’ve grown up with Madonna always near us — in addition to Janet Jackson and maybe David Byrne, there are very few consistently present pop stars alive for Gen Xers — it feels unlikely we could learn something new about her.
But in the magazine this week, looking at Madonna at 60, I did learn some things. She’s grown ever more remote and has always been a bit inarticulate, even as she stays in the popular imagination and in the rotation of playlists. It’s interesting to hear fresh perspectives about the through line that AIDS has played in her life, and about what the limits of ambition are.
(Surprise, though, and a spoiler — Madonna absolutely despises this profile, viciously and graphically described on her Instagram, though I’m unclear on why. It’s often awful to be written about! It’s a very normal reaction, and I think it’s amplified for people who are very regimented and used to being in control of their lives.)

https://static.nytimes.com/email-content/LI_14044.html

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10 minutes ago, Gus said:

 

96c1b9064a9e47468e565d100209147f-superJumbo.jpg

For those of us who’ve grown up with Madonna always near us — in addition to Janet Jackson and maybe David Byrne, there are very few consistently present pop stars alive for Gen Xers — it feels unlikely we could learn something new about her.
But in the magazine this week, looking at Madonna at 60, I did learn some things. She’s grown ever more remote and has always been a bit inarticulate, even as she stays in the popular imagination and in the rotation of playlists. It’s interesting to hear fresh perspectives about the through line that AIDS has played in her life, and about what the limits of ambition are.
(Surprise, though, and a spoiler — Madonna absolutely despises this profile, viciously and graphically described on her Instagram, though I’m unclear on why. It’s often awful to be written about! It’s a very normal reaction, and I think it’s amplified for people who are very regimented and used to being in control of their lives.)

https://static.nytimes.com/email-content/LI_14044.html

Further proves Madonna's point. Takeaways for me...

1) Of course there is something new to learn. As if she is such a caricature and so simple that nothing else can be learned as she changes and evolves. I'd say we know so little about Madonna. AGE SHADE

2) Madonna is now and has always been inarticulate. (from the STYLE editor - insert eye roll) It's funny I have molded so much of my speech after Madonna growing up invested in her interviews and appearances. And...I'm articulate as fuck. Tks Choire.

3) It's so awful to be written about and so that's Madonna's real problem...a lack of control (in addition to being remote).

I'd bet Choire Sicha (the author of this) hasn't been written about much. I MISS INGRID SISCHY!!!!

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5 hours ago, articunocc said:

i was raped man and i think the way she uses the word rape is tacky and tasteless and cringe, she should retire it because having a lukewarm interview on the new york times isn't the same as getting raped... end of

So, let me make sure I understand you, since you were raped you now have authority over that word? Hmm, does that also extend to Madonna then, a rape survivor herself? Doesn't she also get authority over the word for herself?

I myself was also raped, worst experience of my life. I've dealt with my experience through creating art (I've produced two original musicals, a play, and three albums of original music) and I consider my art a very personal intimate part of myself, and I'd feel quite violated if it was stolen in an unfinished version and spread to the public like that, so it makes sense to me for her to use that metaphor. This journalist had intimate access to her and then wrote a shit article, leaving M feeling violated, or in her words, raped. You'd have to be an idiot to think Madonna is actually saying "This is equal to or worse than when I was raped." Don't be an idiot.

But congrats on your two posts here. Rather transparent don't you think? 

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25 minutes ago, Gus said:

 

96c1b9064a9e47468e565d100209147f-superJumbo.jpg

For those of us who’ve grown up with Madonna always near us — in addition to Janet Jackson and maybe David Byrne, there are very few consistently present pop stars alive for Gen Xers — it feels unlikely we could learn something new about her.
But in the magazine this week, looking at Madonna at 60, I did learn some things. She’s grown ever more remote and has always been a bit inarticulate, even as she stays in the popular imagination and in the rotation of playlists. It’s interesting to hear fresh perspectives about the through line that AIDS has played in her life, and about what the limits of ambition are.
(Surprise, though, and a spoiler — Madonna absolutely despises this profile, viciously and graphically described on her Instagram, though I’m unclear on why. It’s often awful to be written about! It’s a very normal reaction, and I think it’s amplified for people who are very regimented and used to being in control of their lives.)

https://static.nytimes.com/email-content/LI_14044.html

 

In addition to Janet Jackson and David Byrne perhaps  :rotfl:

 

I stopped reading right there

As if

And while on the subject of star leagues or inarticulateness for that matter ...

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21 minutes ago, boy skeffington said:

Further proves Madonna's point. Takeaways for me...

1) Of course there is something new to learn. As if she is such a caricature and so simple that nothing else can be learned as she changes and evolves. I'd say we know so little about Madonna. AGE SHADE

2) Madonna is now and has always been inarticulate. (from the STYLE editor - insert eye roll) It's funny I have molded so much of my speech after Madonna growing up invested in her interviews and appearances. And...I'm articulate as fuck. Tks Choire.

3) It's so awful to be written about and so that's Madonna's real problem...a lack of control (in addition to being remote).

I'd bet Choire Sicha (the author of this) hasn't been written about much. I MISS INGRID SISCHY!!!!

 

👍

Rather transparent wouldn't you say

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Guest jamesshot

Rape victim here as well. Date raped by an ex who slipped me a roofie (I was already dating him). Found out this was his MO. It didn't even enter my mind when she used the word to describe her experience with this article to bring in my own experience. Nor was I offended because it is a metaphor. I think using that metaphor over this article was way over the top but, as I've said, I don't walk in her shoes. I would argue the media has been gang raping her since the beginning. So maybe even slight things make her feel this strongly due to the past. Almost like PTSD. 

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13 minutes ago, Gus said:
For those of us who’ve grown up with Madonna always near us — in addition to Janet Jackson and maybe David Byrne, there are very few consistently present pop stars alive for Gen Xers — it feels unlikely we could learn something new about her.
But in the magazine this week, looking at Madonna at 60, I did learn some things. She’s grown ever more remote and has always been a bit inarticulate, even as she stays in the popular imagination and in the rotation of playlists. It’s interesting to hear fresh perspectives about the through line that AIDS has played in her life, and about what the limits of ambition are.
(Surprise, though, and a spoiler — Madonna absolutely despises this profile, viciously and graphically described on her Instagram, though I’m unclear on why. It’s often awful to be written about! It’s a very normal reaction, and I think it’s amplified for people who are very regimented and used to being in control of their lives.)

https://static.nytimes.com/email-content/LI_14044.html

An editor should take their subject's public discontent seriously, or not comment at all. She thinks she's being clever or that she's standing by her journalist, but in reality she's just being petulant and unprofessional. Which ironically lends credibility to Madonna's claim about the shallow tone and framing of the piece.

 

 

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It is unprofessional to say what they are about Madonna instead of trying right a perceived wrong or being classy and agreeing to disagree. 

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39 minutes ago, Gus said:

For those of us who’ve grown up with Madonna always near us — in addition to Janet Jackson and maybe David Byrne, there are very few consistently present pop stars alive for Gen Xers — it feels unlikely we could learn something new about her.

Huh? What the fuck is she on?!? And... Janet bloody Jackson and Mr. Talking Heads? Really?!??

40 minutes ago, Gus said:

But in the magazine this week, looking at Madonna at 60, I did learn some things. She’s grown ever more remote and has always been a bit inarticulate, even as she stays in the popular imagination and in the rotation of playlists. It’s interesting to hear fresh perspectives about the through line that AIDS has played in her life, and about what the limits of ambition are. (Surprise, though, and a spoiler — Madonna absolutely despises this profile, viciously and graphically described on her Instagram, though I’m unclear on why. It’s often awful to be written about! It’s a very normal reaction, and I think it’s amplified for people who are very regimented and used to being in control of their lives.)

Nah luv, clearly you learned fuck all.

Clearly Madonna was 100% right just by reading the above pile of petulant condescending dung.

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11 minutes ago, Phineaspoe said:

An editor should take their subject's public discontent seriously, or not comment at all. She thinks she's being clever or that she's standing by her journalist, but in reality she's just being petulant and unprofessional. Which ironically lends credibility to Madonna's claim about the shallow tone and framing of the piece.

 

 

Precisely.

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I think she was blah and a bit mad  about the article when she started reading it but she went ballistic when she read the word menopause on the article 🤗 ,  just a funny comment please dont go ballistic u guys too jeje 😅

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1 hour ago, XXL said:

 

In addition to Janet Jackson and David Byrne perhaps  :rotfl:

 

I stopped reading right there

As if

And while on the subject of star leagues or inarticulateness for that matter ...

The inclusion of these two (or anyone else she may have come up with) are there to DIMINISH Madonna. Make no mistake. She exists separate from those artists.

And...the writer is calculating..because if she is called out for the comparison, it will be taken by social media as an indictment of Jancel and Byrne. It insulates her weak argument. 

 

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For what it’s worth I recall a passage from the authorized biography that Elon Musk agreed to several years ago, “Elon Musk: Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic Future.” The author, Ashley Vance, mentioned that he wanted to read the final manuscript before it was published. Professionally she didn’t feel right about it as it would create some ethical concerns, and that his version of the truth was not always the version of the truth the world shares. He eventually agreed to those terms. And it is a very good book, highlighting his genius while not ignoring his human flaws. He should be so lucky the book was written then, since he’s become more of a problematic figure in recent years.

It’s ultimately Vanessa Grigoriadis’ final say as the journalist on the narrative she chose, which in her eyes is mostly celebrating Madonna’s  strength & legacy while not ignoring her flaws, which have been constantly discussed on these forums because they’re pretty hard to ignore at this point. Madonna has a right to disagree with this narrative, and somewhere the truth probably lies in the middle between both of them.  I just strongly disagree with Madonna’s overreaction, as this wasn’t a Daily Mail exposé piece.

 

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13 minutes ago, p4_trulo said:

I think she was blah and a bit mad  about the article when she started reading it but she went ballistic when she read the word menopause on the article 🤗 ,  just a funny comment please dont go ballistic u guys too jeje 😅

You know, the inclusion of the menopause line was so bizarre. It displays that the writer is fixated on Madonna's age. 
I found that musing along with the assertion of Madonna's face work to be disgusting and showed the writer's notion she wasn't dealing with a human being in Madonna. Sad.

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She was not comparing an interview to being raped. She compared having her album stolen to it, the feeling of being violated.

The interviewer didn't approve of the metaphor, and Madonna defended her use if it as a rape survivor

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23 hours ago, DreamTheater said:

Please. Establishment media such as NYT and the BBC assume a very PC stance partly to compensate for their total indifference to social issues in the past. The fact that sexual assault cases took so much time to be reported speaks volumes. It's totally ridiculous for them to want to school Madonna on feminism, which is what the writer did. I'm surprised that fans do not see it. Perhaps we are too used to negative articles that a semi-positive piece seems good.

Yes!

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Would any rape victim actually be offended though, or are they told they should be offended? Really now.

Reminds me of the cultural appropriation mess - all these people with blue hair running around talking about how white people can't do henna, while the Indians don't give a shit. :lol: 

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What if Madonna started a new publishing trend? No more journalists allowed into her life. Wanna write about Madonna? You don't. You let Madonna herself write her own articles about her work, whatever she wishes, only herself can do it. With no censorship. Media companies would purchase Madonna's articles directly from her to be published, with a legally binding agreement not to edit a single portion out unless specifically agreed upon with M beforehand.

Imagine if Madonna wrote and published her own promoting articles as opposed to having to rely upon the interpretation of a journalist to promote her work, which often they don't as journos fixate on everything else with little room to focus on Madonna's actual work. As a fan I would be over ecstatically eager to read a promoting article written by Madonna herself, rather than someone else's point of view of her, exercise of style by everyone but Madonna.

If none of the above makes sense to you, know this: it's past midnight here. Around this time until about 4am the weirdest ideas cross my mind,... insomnia...

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1 hour ago, pjcowley said:

What if Madonna started a new publishing trend? No more journalists allowed into her life. Wanna write about Madonna? You don't. You let Madonna herself write her own articles about her work, whatever she wishes, only herself can do it. With no censorship. Media companies would purchase Madonna's articles directly from her to be published, with a legally binding agreement not to edit a single portion out unless specifically agreed upon with M beforehand.

Imagine if Madonna wrote and published her own promoting articles as opposed to having to rely upon the interpretation of a journalist to promote her work, which often they don't as journos fixate on everything else with little room to focus on Madonna's actual work. As a fan I would be over ecstatically eager to read a promoting article written by Madonna herself, rather than someone else's point of view of her, exercise of style by everyone but Madonna.

If none of the above makes sense to you, know this: it's past midnight here. Around this time until about 4am the weirdest ideas cross my mind,... insomnia...

You would just end up with fluffy PR pieces, that would very quickly become tiresome for the reader.

This thread started out with many people praising the article and was only when Madonna posted on Instagram that to some extent, the tide turned.

What's potentially interesting with a celebrity, is reading someone else's take on them and the  place they occupy in pop culture, and that's what the NYT article sought to do.  I still have fond memories of the  Vanity Fair cover profiles in the early 90s - 'White Heat' and 'The Misfit' - neither of which would have existed in the form they appeared if Madonna had had full editorial control.

 

Edited by slam3000
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