Yes, she used sex. But she was never an object

[Guest]

You say 'had' but we still have her! Good point though, Kylie's 'innocence' has started grating on me.

Phuc dat bich.

[le smoking]

Can someone explain to me how come Beyonce is a greater icon in many feminist circles than Madonna? It's just beyond me, I can not understand it.

I think it's for a few reasons - we've seen her evolve from a member of a group controlled by her father to marrying a powerful man, so lots of people relate to the fact that she still exists in a patriarchal realm, whereas Madonna's never been seen as reliant on a male figure. People love the fact that she can be a doting wife and mother (aka portraying softness) while staying super sexy and calling herself a feminist. Also, I think the feminist messages in her music are way more obvious, almost slogan esque ("I'm a survivor", "is my body too bootylicious?" "Who run the world? Girls" etc) than Madonna's, which are often embedded in other themes (i.e. Express Yourself is a feminist anthem but it's more specifically about affirming your self worth in a relationship). Even when Beyonce's singing about being ***flawless, a survivor, an independent woman, feeling herself, running the world etc. she arguably still panders to the male gaze to some extent, which makes her brand of feminism easier to swallow than say, Madonna's "hulk" arms in a leotard. She can play the Kylie role as well as the Madonna at the same time.

[Guest eroticerotic]

i always find it interesting how much madonna is analyzed when she was genuinely being herself. sure there were predecessors such as debbie harry and andy warhol, but i think she did it the most colorful, fun way, that you tend to forget for a minute the times before her in pop culture, or people who are like minded/comfortable with themselves as well.

i do feel that there will be new pop culture icons that will change the scene the way the beatles and then madonna did. but not in the same way of course. but it will happen organically like it happened with them.

[CJM]

this thread is great. loving everyones opinions

[nick00]

Not completely sure, but it seems like in some American feminist academia, Madonna is seen as a women who benefits from underserved privilege (white skin) and engages in cultural appropriation (which drives some people apeshit).

Do think that at the same time Madonna is highly respected by many in gender studies.

Beyonce is viewed as a very strong black woman who subverts notions of white patriarchy and institutionalized racism which is believed to be rampant in US.

Think Beyonce is an amazing role model for black and brown women, but she's not nearly has complex or fascinating to figure out like Madonna.

[IsaacHarris]

Not completely sure, but it seems like in some American feminist academia, Madonna is seen as a women who benefits from underserved privilege (white skin) and engages in cultural appropriation (which drives some people apeshit).

I hate when people have that misconception, especially in regard to Vogue.

Madonna acknowledges her inspirations by including them in her videos/ live performances by allowing THEM to take center stage (Jose & Luis had solos in the video, on tour, were featured in the MTV Voting ad, AND she did a track with them). She doesn't take credit for their artistry as her own, nor does she reduce them to mere props or background decoration. She doesn't appropriate or exploit cultures, she showcases them. Madonna has consistently been an ally to Black folks & gays since her debut.

As for her being white... it is what it is.

[IsaacHarris]

Think Beyonce is an amazing role model for black and brown women, but she's not nearly has complex or fascinating to figure out like Madonna.

Very true indeed. Bey & all the other pop princesses sip from the well of Madonna because it's just so damn deep.

[le smoking]

I hate when people have that misconception, especially in regard to Vogue.

Madonna acknowledges her inspirations by including them in her videos/ live performances by allowing THEM to take center stage (Jose & Luis had solos in the video, on tour, were featured in the MTV Voting ad, AND she did a track with them). She doesn't take credit for their artistry as her own, nor does she reduce them to mere props or background decoration. She doesn't appropriate or exploit cultures, she showcases them. Madonna has consistently been an ally to Black folks & gays since her debut.

As for her being white... it is what it is.

it's sad that people don't see past their own judgements to realize that Madonna always showcases cultures with love and respect (and a lot of research). It's never stereotypical or fetishizing nor does she merely try things on.

[IsaacHarris]

...we've seen her evolve from a member of a group controlled by her father to marrying a powerful man, so lots of people relate to the fact that she still exists in a patriarchal realm...

Also, I think the feminist messages in her music are way more obvious, almost slogan esque...

Even when Beyonce's singing about being ***flawless, a survivor, an independent woman, feeling herself, running the world etc. she arguably still panders to the male gaze to some extent, which makes her brand of feminism easier to swallow than say, Madonna's "hulk" arms in a leotard.

She can play the Kylie role as well as the Madonna at the same time.

Yall are READING my girl Yonce But it's all very true & even as a Bey loon, I can admit that.

[le smoking]

Yall are READING my girl Yonce But it's all very true & even as a Bey loon, I can admit that.

lol I'm a stan tbh but did I lie?

[Jazzy Jan]

Very interesting thread. It is funny I have the opposite experiences of a lot of people on this thread as most straight men I know like Madonna a lot.

Personally, I think women are too analysed about who they should be and how they should behave. Everyone has different personalities and ways of handling things. Madonna is truly one of a kind in every way and has the drive, personality, humour and conviction that people could only dream about. Plus, puts up with more criticism then any other female celebrity. She also set the bar for women regarding expressing sexuality which is wonderful.

However, I actually like the fact that today's stars can be who they want to be. Adele, Rihanna, Katy, Taylor, Beyonce, Miley, Lana etc are all different from each other. We may not like or admire some of them - fair enough - but they are doing what they want so that is a plus for women. We have been spoilt with Madonna and I don't expect other stars to have the same impact and personalities.

[5iVe Elements]

One thing's for sure, if someone in my life hates or puts down Madonna - they get the flush. I need people with an ounce of intelligence

[Guest Rachelle of London]

I think it's for a few reasons - we've seen her evolve from a member of a group controlled by her father to marrying a powerful man, so lots of people relate to the fact that she still exists in a patriarchal realm, whereas Madonna's never been seen as reliant on a male figure. People love the fact that she can be a doting wife and mother (aka portraying softness) while staying super sexy and calling herself a feminist. Also, I think the feminist messages in her music are way more obvious, almost slogan esque ("I'm a survivor", "is my body too bootylicious?" "Who run the world? Girls" etc) than Madonna's, which are often embedded in other themes (i.e. Express Yourself is a feminist anthem but it's more specifically about affirming your self worth in a relationship). Even when Beyonce's singing about being ***flawless, a survivor, an independent woman, feeling herself, running the world etc. she arguably still panders to the male gaze to some extent, which makes her brand of feminism easier to swallow than say, Madonna's "hulk" arms in a leotard. She can play the Kylie role as well as the Madonna at the same time.

This. Beyoncé sings about being an independent woman. Madonna IS an independent woman.

[Guest Rachelle of London]

I hate when people have that misconception, especially in regard to Vogue.

Madonna acknowledges her inspirations by including them in her videos/ live performances by allowing THEM to take center stage (Jose & Luis had solos in the video, on tour, were featured in the MTV Voting ad, AND she did a track with them). She doesn't take credit for their artistry as her own, nor does she reduce them to mere props or background decoration. She doesn't appropriate or exploit cultures, she showcases them. Madonna has consistently been an ally to Black folks & gays since her debut.

As for her being white... it is what it is.

[VogueMusic]

but there is something to it that madonna is complex. and maybe thats why they dont like her, because they can't categorise her or put her into a box. she is too politically incorrect yet sometimes makes bubblegum pop. and I always think she's internally more of a punk/rockstar who just loves to put on an entertaining "pop" show and make mainstream music. so they're confused..?

THIS. THIS. THIS. So true.

[VogueMusic]

Not completely sure, but it seems like in some American feminist academia, Madonna is seen as a women who benefits from underserved privilege (white skin) and engages in cultural appropriation (which drives some people apeshit).

Do think that at the same time Madonna is highly respected by many in gender studies.

Beyonce is viewed as a very strong black woman who subverts notions of white patriarchy and institutionalized racism which is believed to be rampant in US.

Think Beyonce is an amazing role model for black and brown women, but she's not nearly has complex or fascinating to figure out like Madonna.

This too. There's a complexity to Madonna that so many just can't get...they want, and need, to be able to place her into boxes and categories that they can only understand, and since they can't, she continues to throw them off and they take that out on their perceptions of her.

Madonna has always made you look for it and think about it...vs. so many of today's "artists" that have popularized it and been readily accepted for it because they've watered it down for the masses. With Madonna, it's an intrinsic part of her personality and her artistic spirit...for so many others today, it's a matter of 'branding' and loudly selling themselves that way.

As for the young identity politics/SJW types, just the fact that she's a 'white woman' somehow negates any and every possible revolutionary, progressive, socio-political thing she's ever pioneered or subverted, and the context she's done it in...because (and especially) if you're not a minority in any way, you better "stay in your lane" according to their rules, and if not, you're immediately "problematic" and guilty by default. And of course, it's easier for them to give all the credit to someone that represents what only they want to see in a far more palatable way, and is already perceived to be 'on their team'.

Couple that with the fact that Madonna really doesn't represent the socially acceptable form of 'feminism' that is popular at this very moment, and it really throws them all for a loop. In fact, she never really has.

Don't even get me started on the "cultural appropriation" bullshit. If there ever was an artist that does it and does it right, it's Madonna.

Unfortunately, these SJW/feminist types are, more often than not, perpetrators of the very worst ageism I see in the social media realm. These types are the first to throw out the most nasty, ageist remarks to put her down before even trying to attempt a rational argument (as if they'd even know what that is). Oh the irony...

[Guest]

I hate when people have that misconception, especially in regard to Vogue.

Madonna acknowledges her inspirations by including them in her videos/ live performances by allowing THEM to take center stage (Jose & Luis had solos in the video, on tour, were featured in the MTV Voting ad, AND she did a track with them). She doesn't take credit for their artistry as her own, nor does she reduce them to mere props or background decoration. She doesn't appropriate or exploit cultures, she showcases them. Madonna has consistently been an ally to Black folks & gays since her debut.

As for her being white... it is what it is.

Exactly!!!!!!!

[Rebel Heartbreaker]

The irony, indeed!

Madonna IS complicated, as a person, a feminist and cultural icon. The fact that she gets strong reactions from a lot of opposing camps means that her innate ability to redefine feminist ideals is still sorely needed (the ageist shit, anyone?).

I think what also upsets some people is that Madonna is both sexy AND funny.

[karbatal]

Beyonce's feminism is pure marketing but at least they market some images that difers from the big booty slut singing about anacondas.

But farther from what girls now get from TV and pop culture is the example giving at home. Psychologists told me that if the boy or girl see at home a good example 90% is won in equity. Sadly we still live in a patriarchal society with women sacrificing their careers to rise children and most of them still taking care of their husbands and being obsessed with physical image. Exactly what the toys imply: be a mother and look good for the men

Meanwhile Madonna shows a woman who loves her kids but keeps fighting. Who looks great but never in a condescending way.

[karbatal]

Just think though the millions of girls who grew up looking up at Madonna. As a gay man I know how many windows she opened for me. and so many for girls allover the world.

[paradise]

What I love about Madonna is that her work is a manifestation of her life experiences and the fact that she is often self educated and very well read..alot of modern pop bitches grew up comfortable and studied Madonna not fine art and literature...and no one has the same drive as Madonna, its unnatural

[anastaza]

Just think though the millions of girls who grew up looking up at Madonna. As a gay man I know how many windows she opened for me. and so many for girls allover the world.

*raises hand*

I was 6/7 years old when I became a fan (1984/85). Madonna has had the biggest influence on me when it came to sex and female sexuality. Growing up, sex was always alluded to being something not talked about, private. Almost shameful.

For the longest time, women were not allowed be be sexual beings without it being tied to pleasuring a man. Experiencing sex for our own pleasure, being outwardly sexual, and being in control of ALL of it was almost unheard of. Madonna turned that shit on its head, going against everything women (and men!) had been taught.

She taught us that sex is not a bad thing when it came to our own pleasure and also when it came to a decision between two consenting adults. She brought visibility to the LGBT community, even admitting to her own sexual fantasies about being with another woman, as well as admitting to being turned on by the idea of two men being together, and NOT being ashamed to say so. The idea of discussing sexuality fluidity was almost unheard of for the longest time. She has been fearless in that regard.

Finally, how she has presented herself, her image all these years, has been of her own volition. It's all her. She's 100% in control and has not apologized for any of it. That's a tough pill for a lot of people to swallow.

[Guest]

*raises hand*

I was 6/7 years old when I became a fan (1984/85). Madonna has had the biggest influence on me when it came to sex and female sexuality. Growing up, sex was always alluded to being something not talked about, private. Almost shameful.

For the longest time, women were not allowed be be sexual beings without it being tied to pleasuring a man. Experiencing sex for our own pleasure, being outwardly sexual, and being in control of ALL of it was almost unheard of. Madonna turned that shit on its head, going against everything women (and men!) had been taught.

She taught us that sex is not a bad thing when it came to our own pleasure and also when it came to a decision between two consenting adults. She brought visibility to the LGBT community, even admitting to her own sexual fantasies about being with another woman, as well as admitting to being turned on by the idea of two men being together, and NOT being ashamed to say so. The idea of discussing sexuality fluidity was almost unheard of for the longest time. She has been fearless in that regard.

Finally, how she has presented herself, her image all these years, has been of her own volition. It's all her. She's 100% in control and has not apologized for any of it. That's a tough pill for a lot of people to swallow.

Brilliant, A.

[anastaza]

Brilliant, A.

Thanks, love. <3

I just love and admire her SO much. What I love the most about her, above everything, is how honest she is, and how much integrity she has. Of every choice she has made in her career, even what many regarded as choices that could have ended her career, she has never said, "I regret doing that." She has never verbally given that response to anyone, and I so respect that. She completely honors and acknowledges every choice and decision she has made because she honors herself and her journey as a woman and a human being.

[XXL]

I've been working this week on an article about sexism and its effects on toys for little kids. It's incredible that after so many decades we still have just babies and make up and fluffy things for girls and all action and superhero, science and construction blocks are for boys. At least, in tv ads. And to be fair, tv still has a big impact on our minds.

Then i was playing Kylie's Christmas album and thought that this fluffy girl, princessy and girlie is the epytome of that message that marketing is spreading for decades: the giggly, delicate, a bit naive girl, with little glimpses of being a whore.

And then i remembered Madonna. In the Rolling Stone interview from 1987, she says that she stands for all things that women can't do. She was so powerful and strong and sexual, and sensual and femenine at the same time... She was never the stupid giggling girlie absurd girl. She was master of her own body and used sex whenever she pleased with whoever she pleased.

Compare Madonna to those princesses from the 90s and 00s and the megawhores from nowadays. Just look at Rihanna, at Nikki with that monster ass. And Ariana Grande, that pedo dream. Only Beyonce (and i don't like her much) shows some power (in a bit reductive way, but at least she portraits herself in comand).

Thank God we had Madonna. Imagine a world without her?

[XXL]

Madonna has always been sexy on her own terms and a lot of heterosexual men don't like her for that. She was way ahead of her time, showing that women can be feminine and strong at the same time. She is the first woman that I had seen who had big muscles and still kept her femininity. And by that I don't mean the giggly, delicate flower waiting for a man to come rescue her-feminity. I was so surprised during the 90s when after all this time with Madonna, the next big thing was Britney Spears.

I never understood the comparisons between the two to be honest. Britney didn't have a childhood, like Michael. Madonna was allowed and had the great fortune of being a child, a teenager and a woman of her own making and volition before being Madonna, the pop star

Unlike most of the other acts she gets compared to she didn't have pushy parents placing all their bets on her. In fact the exact contrary of that was her very salvation as a public figure even before as an artist

[tycole6]

This is a great thread! I really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts and opinions on the subject.

I think Madonna is by far the most inspirational icon music has ever known simply because everything she has done, whether good, bad, pretty or ugly, has been on her own terms. It was her decision to writhe on the floor in a wedding dress, to chain herself up in HER video, to expose her nipple on tour, the list goes on and on.

She has taught and is still teaching countless generations that sex and one's body and mind are not to be feared, but embraced. That sex also is something purely physical but also a mental concept as well. That we can be controlled by society's expectations of what is sexually attractive and appropriate or we can go against it all and be our person. Free from the constraints of society.

For that Madonna will always my love and admiration through all her endeavors.

[Raf]

Love this thread! So much truth in these posts! :clap:

[karbatal]

And never forget. If we believe gossip and tales... Madonna didn't have to fuck for tracks like others do. She choose the dj or producer, fuck him and used him. Instead of being the girl being abused, she controlled that situation.

I was thinking about this today, because that blind item about Ellie Goulding having to postpone the album because couldn't find a producer who didn't want to fuck her brains in exchange of producing really disturbed me. I surely live in lala land, but i didn't know that was happening.

Then i remembered all the legends and stories about Madonna fucking this DJ and all that. And smiled because she decided who and when, instead of being a corporate whore.

Kudos!

[le smoking]

And never forget. If we believe gossip and tales... Madonna didn't have to fuck for tracks like others do. She choose the dj or producer, fuck him and used him. Instead of being the girl being abused, she controlled that situation.

I was thinking about this today, because that blind item about Ellie Goulding having to postpone the album because couldn't find a producer who didn't want to fuck her brains in exchange of producing really disturbed me. I surely live in lala land, but i didn't know that was happening.

Then i remembered all the legends and stories about Madonna fucking this DJ and all that. And smiled because she decided who and when, instead of being a corporate whore.

Kudos!

:lmao:

Didn't she used to give h**d for spins at the club