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^ Since I have similar feelings as he/she does, I'll just say that it's silly to suggest someone shouldn't come to a Madonna forum to express his/her feelings just because it's not positive. He/she is obviously still a fan of most of her work. With a few exceptions, we're ALL fans here. She's been around for 30 years. Being a fan doesn't mean always liking everything she does. How boring would this place be if everyone only gushed about how amazing everything she does is? Madonna could stop releasing music starting today and most of us would still continue being fans despite being deeply disappointed. I'm not a big fan of HC, but thought MDNA was a vast improvement. Should I have stopped coming to this forum until she did something I liked? I know your point is that he keeps going on about it, but that's because people are replying and engaging him on his opinions. I don't understand why people are so fixated on attacking other posters on here.

If you're not a fan of the recent work that's fine, but to claim she's less of an artist because she's not doing things the way she used to is just bullshit and not true vocalism! I'm SORRY! IDC how many compliments he has given her, that statement simply refutes every good thing he's said!

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Did I say the metaphors in Masterpiece are especially "high-brow"? No. But Madonna relies on clichés when it comes to metaphors. Her use of them nowadays is kinda lazy. Also, you can always tell what's been written by Madonna nowadays. Like we can be 100% sure that Madonna wrote the "super duper" line on Superstar as no one else in the world says "super duper" anymore.

1) What's more to know in terms of what we've been discussing?

2) But saying "I wrote this song" is still simply untrue.

3) Yes, she did credit him on those because she has to. And you've got to be kidding me. Saying "I co-wrote this song with Joe Henry" would have been closer to truth (also still not entirely accurate) or something along those lines wouldn't have been "going into extensive detail", LOL.

4) But that's typical of her. It's part of the mythology that she's created around herself. Ask Christopher.

There's no agenda. Like I said, I posted my opinion and I would've been fine at that one post. But people got upset and started to reply to me so in the name of discussion I'm answering them back. Isn't that what these forums are about? I don't need to convince anyone. Or does that work the other way around, too? Are you trying to convince me that Madonna is a saint and a great lyricist nowadays? If so, where's the evidence?

Oh, and I said this before in this thread but I'm going to say it again: The notion that I'm all negative in regards to Madonna is simply not true. it's not like I've gone on a full-blown attack here. I've criticized her basically for one thing here. That's it. I don't go around in every thread saying something negative about her. I don't need to because that's not how I feel. In fact, I've said many positive things about her in this thread, too, but nobody pays any attention to that. So it's kinda odd that people perceive me to be the negative one when you're the ones who concentrate on my criticism but ignore the great compliments I've said of her.

Finally, I was ready to move on on page 7. I still ready to do that and I'd love that but if someone responds to me, I think it's polite I respond to them. Thank you.

So if she credited them what's the problem?

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Guest Rachelle of London

Chelle, are you trying to derail this thread ? Surely you want to keep hearing about how Madonna does not write her songs but takes the credit blah blah blah. :lol:

I know I'm so naughty loool

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You know her???? Her last album I feel cream I can totally see madonna singing just about every song!!!! She's killer!

Talk to Me & I Feel Cream especially. Can't believe Madonna hasn't reached out to her; she seems like a better fit than MIA IMO.

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Guest Rachelle of London

Talk to Me & I Feel Cream especially. Can't believe Madonna hasn't reached out to her; she seems like a better fit than MIA IMO.

I agree. Much better fit.

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Did I say the metaphors in Masterpiece are especially "high-brow"? No. But Madonna relies on clichés when it comes to metaphors. Her use of them nowadays is kinda lazy. Also, you can always tell what's been written by Madonna nowadays. Like we can be 100% sure that Madonna wrote the "super duper" line on Superstar as no one else in the world says "super duper" anymore.

1) What's more to know in terms of what we've been discussing?

2) But saying "I wrote this song" is still simply untrue.

3) Yes, she did credit him on those because she has to. And you've got to be kidding me. Saying "I co-wrote this song with Joe Henry" would have been closer to truth (also still not entirely accurate) or something along those lines wouldn't have been "going into extensive detail", LOL.

4) But that's typical of her. It's part of the mythology that she's created around herself. Ask Christopher.

There's no agenda. Like I said, I posted my opinion and I would've been fine at that one post. But people got upset and started to reply to me so in the name of discussion I'm answering them back. Isn't that what these forums are about? I don't need to convince anyone. Or does that work the other way around, too? Are you trying to convince me that Madonna is a saint and a great lyricist nowadays? If so, where's the evidence?

Oh, and I said this before in this thread but I'm going to say it again: The notion that I'm all negative in regards to Madonna is simply not true. it's not like I've gone on a full-blown attack here. I've criticized her basically for one thing here. That's it. I don't go around in every thread saying something negative about her. I don't need to because that's not how I feel. In fact, I've said many positive things about her in this thread, too, but nobody pays any attention to that. So it's kinda odd that people perceive me to be the negative one when you're the ones who concentrate on my criticism but ignore the great compliments I've said of her.

Finally, I was ready to move on on page 7. I still ready to do that and I'd love that but if someone responds to me, I think it's polite I respond to them. Thank you.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. If seeing Madonna in action with all the hard work and passion she put into her art in 2012 doesn't convince you of that, then I won't be able to. Your opinion is your opinion, it certainly doesn't mean what you're saying is fact. Surely you must understand how someone who has frequented this forum for 10 yrs is a little skeptical about a newbie coming in and saying within their first few posts, "Madonna isn't a good artist anymore". You didn't JUST say songwriting, you said she's declined as an artist and again, that's one of the first things you say upon joining a FAN FORUM. It's not like it was said amongst a majority of posts where you are discussing what you love about her. You CLEARLY had an agenda coming in here. Sorry, I've been here too long and I've seen this happen many many times.....call me jaded if you want. I'm not suggesting everything has to be rainbows and unicorns when discussing Madonna and I wouldn't even question your comment if it came from some other posters here, but to be quite honest your timing is just really really bad. First impressions and all that.

You say "I haven't gone on full blown attack" as if you feel you COULD or maybe should?? I don't get that comment. Why would you go into a full blown attack against someone you respect (presumably...maybe I presume too much tho) and admire?? Even if you don't like what they are doing currently. You keep saying how you've complimented her so much etc but when you make a comment that pretty much says "she sucks as a songwriter and artist and she's lazy with creating her work now" then any compliments you may forcibly sprinkle into your posts to try to look more objective kinda get lost. Surely you must understand that.

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I'm not trying to convince you of anything. If seeing Madonna in action with all the hard work and passion she put into her art in 2012 doesn't convince you of that, then I won't be able to. Your opinion is your opinion, it certainly doesn't mean what you're saying is fact. Surely you must understand how someone who has frequented this forum for 10 yrs is a little skeptical about a newbie coming in and saying within their first few posts, "Madonna isn't a good artist anymore". You didn't JUST say songwriting, you said she's declined as an artist and again, that's one of the first things you say upon joining a FAN FORUM.

I may be new to this forum but I've been posting on several Madonna forums for well over a decade. Always under the same name (and only under the name "TheUnseenHand" so anyone who thinks I've had other profiles on this or any other forum is simply wrong). Madonna is still my all-time favorite artist and she will always be if not for anything else but for the first 20 years or so of her career. Like I said before in this thread, she was untouchable during those years. Not perfect but better than anyone has ever been for so long. Nobody has been so consistently great as she was. And I'll repeat it again because it seems my positive remarks need to be repeated: And Madonna doesn't get enough credit for that.

Yes, I think she's declined as an artist. I don't deny thinking that and I did mention it somewhere but I didn't go into detail and I didn't explain myself. Unlike the perception of me, I don't actually enjoy dwelling on negative things. But anyway, it is true what I said that I've concentrated basically on her songwriting.

I could add that Madonna is no different from other artists. They all decline in their later years. There's nothing bad or wrong admitting that. Besides, Madonna is still better than any other pop artist out there so...

Btw, I might also add here that I think Lily Allen is spot on here (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/nov/17/lily-allen-i-am-called-mouthy): "Nobody says anything real today. Most of those girls have their songs written by other people. It annoys me, because 'eh oh eh oh ahh' is not a chorus – that's not a point where I feel 'we're connecting', you know? I need a narrative."

What I mean is that the overall quality in pop music lyrics has declined. Again, it's not just Madonna. I love pop music and it's my favorite genre but there isn't anything to listen to nowadays. It's all crap. That's one of the reasons why I want Madonna to do better.

You CLEARLY had an agenda coming in here.

I clearly did not as I don't have one. But I don't really care what you believe.

Truth is, if I don't care for an artist, I don't spend my time registering to fan forums and ranting about them. Why would I? But I still care about Madonna and I'm interested in what she does.

You say "I haven't gone on full blown attack" as if you feel you COULD or maybe should?? I don't get that comment. Why would you go into a full blown attack against someone you respect (presumably...maybe I presume too much tho) and admire??

I think it's quite clear what I mean in the context where I said that. And to be precise, i said "It's not like I've gone on a full-blown attack here".

The reaction against me and my opinions is like I would have gone on a full-blown attack. Meaning, that when people attack me saying that I'm all negative, you would think I've gone on a full-blown attack against Madonna. And I haven't. It simply isn't true nor correct. Oh, and if you actually read my first post in this thread, I think it was rather mild even as a criticism.

You keep saying how you've complimented her so much etc but when you make a comment that pretty much says "she sucks as a songwriter and artist and she's lazy with creating her work now" then any compliments you may forcibly sprinkle into your posts to try to look more objective kinda get lost. Surely you must understand that.

I can't control the way people perceive things and on what issues they want to dwell.

If they want to concentrate on me saying that Madonna's lyrics aren't as good as they used to be instead of concentrating on me saying that nobody in the history of pop music except Madonna has been able to be as consistently great for as long as she was for over 20 years (from the beginning of her career up until 2005, imo), that's their choice. But don't try telling me that I'm the negative one here.

I'd much rather talk about those 20+ years of greatness. I still have those years no matter how disappointed I'm with the quality of current work. And they are the reasons why I continue to be interested in her. I know what she can do. I know she can be and do better than she's been/done with her most recent albums, music videos and tours. I know that and I respect her talent so much that I want her to use it to its full potential. I respect her talent. When she doesn't live up to the potential of her own brilliance and when she writes and sings songs that aren't up to her standards, I respect her talent by expecting more from her. Saying that or wanting that isn't disrespectful. Evaluating something truthfully isn't disrespectful. In fact, it's the opposite. I simply just expect more from her. Perhaps to a fault. But I know what she's capable of. That's why my standards for her are always higher than for other artists and that's why I've been disappointed by her most recent work.

But that's just me. Sorry for the long post.

Edited by TheUnseenHand
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Guest Not4Pussies

You know her???? Her last album I feel cream I can totally see madonna singing just about every song!!!! She's killer!

Yes! I Feel Cream is an amazing album and I always imagine M singing those songs. Imagine her on Mommy Complex? Oh and M has reached out to her back in 2003. She asked her to remix Hollywood. Peaches declined as she thought the song was not good. There's a big list of artists who have turned her down.

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I may be new to this forum but I've been posting on several Madonna forums for well over a decade. Always under the same name (and only under the name "TheUnseenHand" so anyone who thinks I've had other profiles on this or any other forum is simply wrong). Madonna is still my all-time favorite artist and she will always be if not for anything else but for the first 20 years or so of her career. Like I said before in this thread, she was untouchable during those years. Not perfect but better than anyone has ever been for so long. Nobody has been so consistently great as she was. And I'll repeat it again because it seems my positive remarks need to be repeated: And Madonna doesn't get enough credit for that.

Yes, I think she's declined as an artist. I don't deny thinking that and I did mention it somewhere but I didn't go into detail and I didn't explain myself. Unlike the perception of me, I don't actually enjoy dwelling on negative things. But anyway, it is true what I said that I've concentrated basically on her songwriting.

I could add that Madonna is no different from other artists. They all decline in their later years. There's nothing bad or wrong admitting that. Besides, Madonna is still better than any other pop artist out there so...

Btw, I might also add here that I think Lily Allen is spot on here (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/nov/17/lily-allen-i-am-called-mouthy): "Nobody says anything real today. Most of those girls have their songs written by other people. It annoys me, because 'eh oh eh oh ahh' is not a chorus – that's not a point where I feel 'we're connecting', you know? I need a narrative."

What I mean is that the overall quality in pop music lyrics has declined. Again, it's not just Madonna. I love pop music and it's my favorite genre but there isn't anything to listen to nowadays. It's all crap. That's one of the reasons why I want Madonna to do better.

I clearly did not as I don't have one. But I don't really care what you believe.

Truth is, if I don't care for an artist, I don't spend my time registering to fan forums and ranting about them. Why would I? But I still care about Madonna and I'm interested in what she does.

I think it's quite clear what I mean in the context where I said that. And to be precise, i said "It's not like I've gone on a full-blown attack here".

The reaction against me and my opinions is like I would have gone on a full-blown attack. Meaning, that when people attack me saying that I'm all negative, you would think I've gone on a full-blown attack against Madonna. And I haven't. It simply isn't true nor correct. Oh, and if you actually read my first post in this thread, I think it was rather mild even as a criticism.

I can't control the way people perceive things and on what issues they want to dwell.

If they want to concentrate on me saying that Madonna's lyrics aren't as good as they used to be instead of concentrating on me saying that nobody in the history of pop music except Madonna has been able to be as consistently great for as long as she was for over 20 years (from the beginning of her career up until 2005, imo), that's their choice. But don't try telling me that I'm the negative one here.

I'd much rather talk about those 20+ years of greatness. I still have those years no matter how disappointed I'm with the quality of current work. And they are the reasons why I continue to be interested in her. I know what she can do. I know she can be and do better than she's been/done with her most recent albums, music videos and tours. I know that and I respect her talent so much that I want her to use it to its full potential. I respect her talent. When she doesn't live up to the potential of her own brilliance and when she writes and sings songs that aren't up to her standards, I respect her talent by expecting more from her. Saying that or wanting that isn't disrespectful. Evaluating something truthfully isn't disrespectful. In fact, it's the opposite. I simply just expect more from her. Perhaps to a fault. But I know what she's capable of. That's why my standards for her are always higher than for other artists and that's why I've been disappointed by her most recent work.

But that's just me. Sorry for the long post.

My god if you would have said it like this in the beginning I wouldn't have attacked you!

And I still don't agree her taking songs already written makes her less of an artist, because there is more than enough proof that Madonna makes songs her own! That's what ARTISTS too, they take songs and change them to fit their mold, it's not just about writing something all on your own! Just listen to this example, heartbeat from hard candy

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQYQsc4hyMs this is her version. The original is HORRID! You think if Madonna wasn't an ARTIST she would have changed it? She could have easily done nothing too it.

demo

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My god if you would have said it like this in the beginning I wouldn't have attacked you!

And I still don't agree her taking songs already written makes her less of an artist, because there is more than enough proof that Madonna makes songs her own! That's what ARTISTS too, they take songs and change them to fit their mold, it's not just about writing something all on your own! Just listen to this example, heartbeat from hard candyhttp://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQYQsc4hyMs this is her version. The original is HORRID! You think if Madonna wasn't an ARTIST she would have changed it? She could have easily done nothing too it. demo

Heartbeat is an amazing song. Really underrated by fans like most of Hard Candy.

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Did I say the metaphors in Masterpiece are especially "high-brow"? No. But Madonna relies on clichés when it comes to metaphors. Her use of them nowadays is kinda lazy. Also, you can always tell what's been written by Madonna nowadays. Like we can be 100% sure that Madonna wrote the "super duper" line on Superstar as no one else in the world says "super duper" anymore.

1) What's more to know in terms of what we've been discussing?

2) But saying "I wrote this song" is still simply untrue.

3) Yes, she did credit him on those because she has to. And you've got to be kidding me. Saying "I co-wrote this song with Joe Henry" would have been closer to truth (also still not entirely accurate) or something along those lines wouldn't have been "going into extensive detail", LOL.

4) But that's typical of her. It's part of the mythology that she's created around herself. Ask Christopher.

Ask Christopher? Her jealous, spiteful brother?! I don't need to ask him what he thinks because I formulate my own thoughts! Madonna COULD buy writing credits if she wanted to. She's not that kind of person. She focuses on individual dance talent on her tours. She always shows appreciation to her peers and collaborators. If anything she goes out of her way to shine the light on other people's talents and to encourage them to work more! Madonna may have not put pen to paper with songs like LAV and MG but she wrote them with her very existence. SHE WAS THOSE SONGS! Not only that but she's also written many of her hugely successful songs and even written songs for other people. Gang bang may as well be a different song to bang bang. Sometimes her imagination is triggered by another persons song but she's NEVER sneaky or duplicitous. She is straight forward, honest and complimentary.

That's the history of DTM. You can really see how she brings the song to life in a new way while maintaining that sentiment. She is a very creative and intelligent person. She will only do something that speaks to her.

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Almost every musical artist I have ever seen interviewed will say I wrote a song, when they have actually written a song with other people. It's just a shorthand, instead of listing all the other co-writers. It happens all the time, but I never see anyone making a big issue of it except with Madonna. I don't think in an interview it is necessary to state all the co-writers of the song when discussing the song. As long as the other people are credited on the record and paid their fair share, I don't see the problem. If Madonna says I wrote a song, it's not an intentional thing to screw over the other writers or deny them credit, but just a common everyday expression and shorthand. Every artist does it, since relatively few artists write songs completely by themselves. But somehow with Madonna something negative and terrible is read into that common expression, when it isn't with other artists.

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Almost every musical artist I have ever seen interviewed will say I wrote a song, when they have actually written a song with other people. It's just a shorthand, instead of listing all the other co-writers. It happens all the time, but I never see anyone making a big issue of it except with Madonna. I don't think in an interview it is necessary to state all the co-writers of the song when discussing the song. As long as the other people are credited on the record and paid their fair share, I don't see the problem. If Madonna says I wrote a song, it's not an intentional thing to screw over the other writers or deny them credit, but just a common everyday expression and shorthand. Every artist does it, since relatively few artists write songs completely by themselves. But somehow with Madonna something negative and terrible is read into that common expression, when it isn't with other artists.

You have a very similar posting style to probed by greys not that I think you're him or anything. I mean I don't think that you ARE probed by greys but you just seem to have a very similar posting style. The way you construct your paragraphs really makes me think of probed by greys even though I know that you aren't actually him no matter what people think. :-)

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Heartbeat is an amazing song. Really underrated by fans like most of Hard Candy.

This was one of my favorites early on, but I grew tired of it pretty quickly. I think it's partly the vocals. If she'd sung it in a deeper register (who knows, it's probably sped up), I think I'd still enjoy it. I also really don't care for those fucking Pharrell "drums" that he uses on every god-damn song.

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I love Hard Candy!! It's such a light fluffy record like Bedtime Stories. But still incredibly artful and socio-political.

As my first post as a Forum God, I'd like to honor this post and deem it as Culturally & Historically Significant. :wow:

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You have a very similar posting style to probed by greys not that I think you're him or anything. I mean I don't think that you ARE probed by greys but you just seem to have a very similar posting style. The way you construct your paragraphs really makes me think of probed by greys even though I know that you aren't actually him no matter what people think. :-)

Huh? I'm not even sure who that is? Who thinks I'm not me? I've been at various forums as Glindathegood or Glinda for a longtime. I have the same name at Madonnatribe and absolutemadonna. If anyone reads my posts, they can see I'm obviously a girl. I have the picture of Kate Nash not just because I love her which I do, but because we look alike. People are so weird on forums now always accusing others of crazy stuff.

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Huh? I'm not even sure who that is? Who thinks I'm not me? I've been at various forums as Glindathegood or Glinda for a longtime. I have the same name at Madonnatribe and absolutemadonna.

Glinda, you are one of the very best posters at the other forums. I rarely post at other Madonna forums now but you are one of the stand outs as you are insightful, positive and an obvious Madonna fan. I always like reading your thoughts.

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I love Hard Candy!! It's such a light fluffy record like Bedtime Stories. But still incredibly artful and socio-political.

I love it too.It's a really fun album,with a few "serious" songs thrown in for good measure."Miles Away" remains my favorite Madonna song of recent years.

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Huh? I'm not even sure who that is? Who thinks I'm not me? I've been at various forums as Glindathegood or Glinda for a longtime. I have the same name at Madonnatribe and absolutemadonna. If anyone reads my posts, they can see I'm obviously a girl. I have the picture of Kate Nash not just because I love her which I do, but because we look alike. People are so weird on forums now always accusing others of crazy stuff.

I wasn't suggesting that you were like him. Just that your posting style at that moment was very reminiscent of his. :lol:

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