My dream producer for the next album is...

[TheUnseenHand]

Ask Christopher? Her jealous, spiteful brother?! I don't need to ask him what he thinks because I formulate my own thoughts!

Oh yes, why of course. Naturally it's jealousy and everything he says is out of spite. However, it's not about Christopher formulating your or anyone's thought for their behalf. *sigh*

But tell me, do you think only people who are complimentary of Madonna are reliable and trustworthy? And do you think every person who says something not-so-flattering of her is biased and unreliable? You think Joe Henry is unbiased? He really sets the record straight, right? Come on now. Let's get real. We all know how Madonna is if you tell the truth about her in public if it's not all rainbows. Those people stop existing to her.

But the truth is that Madonna has created and continues to attempt creating this sort of mythological aura around her. She does have a tendency to do that and she's done that from the beginning. She spins the truth in order to create the kind of image of herself that she wants to. Christopher talks about this and makes a very interetesting point.

Or do you actually believe that Madonna arrived in New York with only 34 dollars and ate peanuts and popcorn to survive? Please. That's just one example of her twisting the reality in order to create her own mythology. Like I said, that's been part of her story from the very start.

And before someone says it, I'll say it. No, Madonna isn't the only one who does that. But this is a Madonna forum and I'm interested in Madonna so I talk about Madonna.

Anyway, to put it shortly, nothing you said refuted what I said in regards to DTM. However, that being said, you're right about Madonna not usually taking part in feuds. I do appreciate it that she doesn't take the bait and respond to all the shit that gets thrown at her. I respect her enormously when she stays silent while other artists bash her. And yes, I do appreciate when she shows appreciation to her peers. That's classy of her.

But there's another side to that, too. Like when she doesn't acknowledge people like Shep (and who else?) at events like when she was inducted to RRHOF. He was a major collaborator and she acts like he doesn't exist. But that's who she is. A human. A paradox, like she likes to say. There are many sides to her and they contradict each other.

Almost every musical artist I have ever seen interviewed will say I wrote a song, when they have actually written a song with other people. It's just a shorthand, instead of listing all the other co-writers. It happens all the time, but I never see anyone making a big issue of it except with Madonna. I don't think in an interview it is necessary to state all the co-writers of the song when discussing the song. As long as the other people are credited on the record and paid their fair share, I don't see the problem. If Madonna says I wrote a song, it's not an intentional thing to screw over the other writers or deny them credit, but just a common everyday expression and shorthand. Every artist does it, since relatively few artists write songs completely by themselves. But somehow with Madonna something negative and terrible is read into that common expression, when it isn't with other artists.

Who says one needs to list all the co-writers? Especially when in this case (re: DTM) there was only one; the person who actually wrote the lyrics entirely on his own.

But it's funny. I can say a lot of artist who do say "I co-wrote this with..." or something along those lines. And for example, if you ever catch Elton John talking about his music, you never hear him say he wrote the lyrics. Say what you want about him but he always says Bernie Taupin wrote the lyrics and praises his talent. He doesn't need to be anything but accurate.

Oh, and I can verify that Glinda is Glinda and no one else. Not that she necessarily wants or needs me to do that.

[Guest SecretGarden]

Sigh.

A song writing credit isn't something solely for the person who wrote the lyrics, even if someone wrote the lyrics for Madonna completely; as long as she contributed by changing the melody or adding her own ad libs and so on, it COUNTS as a song writing credit. Song writing isn't about just lyrics, in fact that only encompasses a small part of it, if you listen to the original Don't Tell Me and Madonna's version, they differ greatly, despite the fact the lyrics are practically the same.

It doesn't matter, a contribution to the songs melodic structure is song writing, song producing is a different matter all together.

So unless you were with her in the studio, move on.

[drunkbysix]

Oh yes, why of course. Naturally it's jealousy and everything he says is out of spite. However, it's not about Christopher formulating your or anyone's thought for their behalf. *sigh*

But tell me, do you think only people who are complimentary of Madonna are reliable and trustworthy? And do you think every person who says something not-so-flattering of her is biased and unreliable? You think Joe Henry is unbiased? He really sets the record straight, right? Come on now. Let's get real. We all know how Madonna is if you tell the truth about her in public if it's not all rainbows. Those people stop existing to her.

But the truth is that Madonna has created and continues to attempt creating this sort of mythological aura around her. She does have a tendency to do that and she's done that from the beginning. She spins the truth in order to create the kind of image of herself that she wants to. Christopher talks about this and makes a very interetesting point.

Or do you actually believe that Madonna arrived in New York with only 34 dollars and ate peanuts and popcorn to survive? Please. That's just one example of her twisting the reality in order to create her own mythology. Like I said, that's been part of her story from the very start.

And before someone says it, I'll say it. No, Madonna isn't the only one who does that. But this is a Madonna forum and I'm interested in Madonna so I talk about Madonna.

Anyway, to put it shortly, nothing you said refuted what I said in regards to DTM. However, that being said, you're right about Madonna not usually taking part in feuds. I do appreciate it that she doesn't take the bait and respond to all the shit that gets thrown at her. I respect her enormously when she stays silent while other artists bash her. And yes, I do appreciate when she shows appreciation to her peers. That's classy of her.

But there's another side to that, too. Like when she doesn't acknowledge people like Shep (and who else?) at events like when she was inducted to RRHOF. He was a major collaborator and she acts like he doesn't exist. But that's who she is. A human. A paradox, like she likes to say. There are many sides to her and they contradict each other.

Who says one needs to list all the co-writers? Especially when in this case (re: DTM) there was only one; the person who actually wrote the lyrics entirely on his own.

But it's funny. I can say a lot of artist who do say "I co-wrote this with..." or something along those lines. And for example, if you ever catch Elton John talking about his music, you never hear him say he wrote the lyrics. Say what you want about him but he always says Bernie Taupin wrote the lyrics and praises his talent. He doesn't need to be anything but accurate.

Oh, and I can verify that Glinda is Glinda and no one else. Not that she necessarily wants or needs me to do that.

Ummmm....then what did she arrive with? You have got to be kidding me with this one.....she had nothing in New York. Were you there? Did you even watch the docs on her and her life there? SHE WAS POOR....what was she there, a millionaire?

So are you gonna say Madonna wasn't raped now? Or that Sean penn didn't abuse her? Or that her mother didn't die? Since she likes to create a mythology around herself.

[Nikki]

Wow.. are we really letting that obvious troll & former M tribe pig get away with calling Madonna a liar & not being poor when she came to new york and claiming she steals writing credits because in ONE interview she said "I wrote justify my love" in a conversation instead of specifically naming every single producer and writer of the song? If he's even banned on Madonnatribe that has to tell you something..

If anything Madonna is the ONE artist who always says she can't produce by herself or play instruments (she said it to William behind the scenes during the ROL sessions while he had to say that she actually does know a lot about it!) It's always other people who work with her that compliment her, never herself! I can't believe you're just letting this troll get away with all this bullshit.

And TheUnseenHand: about your bullshit on M: I actually read on a flickr account years ago about women sharing old pics of Madonna in new york and in the comments they were laughing about how they were kicking her with their heels in her stomach and pushed her from the stairs every time they saw her! Never once did I see Madonna mention such events, you know why? Cuz she's NOT a victim and doesn't want to be one. If she'd have been a rich girl living in new york with the right connections instead of a girl from detroit I'm sure she would have owned up to that as well because that's who she is. You may love people who are victims or victimise yourself for sympathy but some people actually don't do that bullshit.

[TheUnseenHand]

Sigh.

A song writing credit isn't something solely for the person who wrote the lyrics, even if someone wrote the lyrics for Madonna completely; as long as she contributed by changing the melody or adding her own ad libs and so on, it COUNTS as a song writing credit. Song writing isn't about just lyrics, in fact that only encompasses a small part of it, if you listen to the original Don't Tell Me and Madonna's version, they differ greatly, despite the fact the lyrics are practically the same.

It doesn't matter, a contribution to the songs melodic structure is song writing, song producing is a different matter all together.

So unless you were with her in the studio, move on.

Why should I have to be in the studio with her? That's silly. Should we all have been in the studio to discuss things regarding to her and her work?

Please, pay attention. I've never said she doesn't deserve a songwriting credit for DTM.

Ummmm....then what did she arrive with? You have got to be kidding me with this one.....she had nothing in New York. Were you there? Did you even watch the docs on her and her life there? SHE WAS POOR

I have watched documentaries of her and they all rely on what she has said of herself. Where's the proof? It's just her word on it. But honestly, do you really think that girl lived only on peanuts and popcorn? I don't think so. That girl wasn't starving.

Christopher totally denies that Madonna arrived in New York with nothing but 34 dollars in her pocket. What he says about Madonna's early days in NYC sounds so much more reliable and plausible than what Madonna wants or wanted to people to believe in. The whole "34 dollars" thing is nothing but storytelling. But like Christopher says it's insulting to their father. It's hurtful to him that Madonna gave an impression of him that he didn't care and let her daughter live on eating popcorn. Same with Madonna saying that her family was lower middle class. Part of her mythology is that she wants people to believe that she comes from worse background than she really does. She wants people to believe that her story is closer to "rags to riches" than it really is.

Seriously, approach and evaluate things with little more critically.

[Nikki]

"she wasn't starving"

Even that woman in many of the M docs (that aren't produced or "Ok'd" by M herself) who took her under her wing talked about how skinny and underfed she looked, and that she wanted to get her out of that one room that could barely fit a single bed and a suitcase in.

And why are you so obsessed with wanting to make Madonna seem to be a liar and a fake victim ?

what's next? you already went to the next topic claiming she's stealing writer's credits so what are you gonna tackle next time? Im sure the adoptions will come up soon enough.

Your motives are really fucked up for a supposed "fan".

[TheUnseenHand]

And TheUnseenHand: about your bullshit on M: I actually read on a flickr account years ago about women sharing old pics of Madonna in new york and in the comments they were laughing about how they were kicking her with their heels in her stomach and pushed her from the stairs every time they saw her! Never once did I see Madonna mention such events, you know why? Cuz she's NOT a victim and doesn't want to be one. If she'd have been a rich girl living in new york with the right connections instead of a girl from detroit I'm sure she would have owned up to that as well because that's who she is. You may love people who are victims or victimise yourself for sympathy but some people actually don't do that bullshit.

I have no idea what that has to do with anything I've been talking about.

Then again, your entire post reveals that you haven't paid attention to what I've actually trying to say. But more power to you!

[TheUnseenHand]

"she wasn't starving"

Even that woman who took her under her wing talked about how skinny and underfed she looked, and that she wanted to get her out of that one room that could barely fit a single bed and a suitcase in.

And why are you so obsessed with wanting to make Madonna seem to be a liar and a fake victim ?

what's next? you already went to the next topic claiming she's stealing writer's credits so what are you gonna tackle next time? Im sure the adoptions will come up soon enough.

Your motives are really fucked up for a supposed "fan".

It would be so much easier to have a discussion with you guys if you paid attention to what I've said instead of creating this fantasy version of me. I can't respond to things that you invent and fantasize me saying.

What is a "fake victim"? What are you refering to?

Why would I criticize her for the adoptions? If you want to concentrate on me and if you want to discuss with me, I'd really appreciate if you'd concentrate on what's actually been said. Most of the things you attach to me have nothing to do with me. I haven't said them.

Oh, and I'm paraphrasing Christopher here in regards to her beginnings in NYC. Notice that. Which version of that story sounds more plausible? It's quite obvious.

Again, it's not about pointing and accusing that she's a liar. It's about understanding that she's been creating this mythology of her. It's fascinating side of her and the whole "she's a master mainipulator" thing thay's been said of her. It's quite genius, actually. It's part of her real story. It's media manipulation at its best. It's shrewd move in those terms. It's glamorizing and romanticizing her story into something that it really wasn't. People love "rags to riches" type of stories so it's no wonder why Madonna wants people to believe something that isn't factually accurate.

[Jazzy Jan]

The Unseen Hand, Why are you certain that Christopher is telling the truth rather than Madonna ? If you are such a fan of hers, why are you more prepared to believe a jealous, drug-addicted no-body rather than Madonna herself ? I have no idea why anyone would keep referring to someone who can profit out of writing a spiteful book about their sister. He is nothing but a complaining, lazy man who always wants to play the victim. I read his book because my brother bought it for me and I could see through him straight away. The fact that he was always "crashing" at her place even though he earned good money, did not take up the opportunities that was given to him and basically name-dropped and told stories about other celebrities all of the time, speaks volumes about his character.

[TheUnseenHand]

And to make myself perfectly clear I'll say this:

When I say that Madonna has been creating this mythological story of herself that isn't accurate and necessarily true in all counts, it is not a criticism.

Let's repeat that together. It's not a criticism.

It's an observation and I'm interested in what people tell and want others to believe about themselves. We all present a story of ourselves to other people and none of us tell entirely accurate or truthful version of our life. We polish it. Nobody posts bad pictures of themselves on Facebook or wherever, We want to present a certain kind of image of ourself. We tell stories of ourselves that create the kind of presentation of ourselves that we want to show to other people. That's how we all are and Madonna is no different. She isn't a saint and she does what every person on this Earth does. Like Dr. House says: everybody lies.

Saying that isn't a criticism. But it's very telling that some of you perceive it to be negative and think I'm attacking her again.

[drunkbysix]

SO WHAT THE FUCK IS THE REAL STORY SINCE YOU KNOW EVERYTHING???? SINCE CHRISTOPHER IS GOD AND EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE??????

[TheUnseenHand]

The Unseen Hand, Why are you certain that Christopher is telling the truth rather than Madonna?

I'm not saying she didn't stuggle in NYC but overall it's all about what's more plausible to me.

Like Christopher says, do you think their father didn't care? Didn't give her money? etc.

Do you really think she arrived in NYC with only 34 dollars and ate popcorn to survive? I mean, honestly, do you believe that and perceive it to be plausible and accurate?

[Jazzy Jan]

I'm not saying she didn't stuggle in NYC but overall it's all about what's more plausible to me.

Like Christopher says, do you think their father didn't care? Didn't give her money? etc.

Do you really think she arrived in NYC with only 34 dollars and ate popcorn to survive? I mean, honestly, do you believe that and perceive it to be plausible and accurate?

Of course her father cared about her. He also was dead set against her going to New York so it could also be plausible that he did not give her money so to discourage her. Anyway, I am not going to keep debating with you as you obviously have your own views as seeing Madonna as someone who wants to play a false victim. Something I think she has never done in her life and I admire her greatly for it.

[drunkbysix]

I'm not saying she didn't stuggle in NYC but overall it's all about what's more plausible to me.

Like Christopher says, do you think their father didn't care? Didn't give her money? etc.

Do you really think she arrived in NYC with only 34 dollars and ate popcorn to survive? I mean, honestly, do you believe that and perceive it to be plausible and accurate?

Can we close this thread? Cause I'm just getting angry and it seems like theunseenhand is just gonna bring up more and more things that he believes that's gonna upset me

[Nikki]

I have no idea what that has to do with anything I've been talking about.

Then again, your entire post reveals that you haven't paid attention to what I've actually trying to say. But more power to you!

your icon alone gives you away. (and no, not as a message to us saying we "suck", but I'm sure the "Madonna hates her fans" topic will rise soon enough started by you next when you're finished with this one.)

you're simply someone who doesn't want to believe anyone who has anything positive to say about her while you jump on every negative detail (even a simple assumption) in a heartbeat and make a story out of it because there's obviously something about her that you don't like. or maybe you just like to stir people up and it's a personal thing. but whatever, I've seen that shit before and I don't fall for it, no matter how many essays you'll write. it's your time and your effort so it's your own loss.

[Guest Rachelle of London]

One word for this thread:

UGH

[horn]

So who's the dream producer for Madonna's next album?

[IsaacHarris]

So who's the dream producer for Madonna's next album?

Theunseenhand, probably.

[horn]

[Guest Xanthium]

SO WHAT THE FUCK IS THE REAL STORY SINCE YOU KNOW EVERYTHING???? SINCE CHRISTOPHER IS GOD AND EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE??????

Can we close this thread? Cause I'm just getting angry and it seems like theunseenhand is just gonna bring up more and more things that he believes that's gonna upset me

Calm down girl. You take this all too personally.

[drunkbysix]

Calm down girl. You take this all too personally.

I realized that after typing it

I can't help it though, it's the way I am when it comes to Madge

[IsaacHarris]

He cute.

[Stephen]

This thread is bullshit

[adreeyen]

She doesn't even sing "super duper" in Superstar. It's "super super," noobs.

[IsaacHarris]

noobs.

[TheUnseenHand]

Anyway, I am not going to keep debating with you as you obviously have your own views as seeing Madonna as someone who wants to play a false victim. Something I think she has never done in her life and I admire her greatly for it.

What is this talk about Madonna playing "a false victim" or me saying she is one?A false victim of what? Because I'm not at all suggesting she's "a false victim". I simply don't get what you're refering to. I really don't.

And I don't get why you guys upset with me. What did I say wrong now? I've already explained myself that I don't think there's anything bad about Madonna fabricating stories and creating this mythology. It's interesting to me! Like I said, we all do that! It's part of human psychology. I'm not accusing of her anything and I'm not blaming for anything when she does that. It's part of her as much as it is part of us all.

See, for me Madonna is a human being. She's not perfect and that fascinates me. I'm happy that she isn't perfect because that makes her so much more interesting.

[acko]

I ain't gonna read all that shit, but It's ironic DTM is being tossed around 2 discredit her credit as a song writer...

It's exactly the opposite...listen to the melody & the music of her version...that's prime song writing.

THE END.

[Guest]

Hi everybody! Enjoying being a member of this forum. Thank you for being you!

I sure hope some of us stop announcing our speculations as true facts and weapons to argue with. I've done it to. So I know it's difficult. But we can rise above! I have a lot of speculations. And for now on I'm going to announce them as such, rather than as facts. And I don't have to back it up with shit if I don't want to. But I will respect others speculations if they differ from mine and not feel the need to challenge them. Also, this is a fan forum. Negative speculations about Madonna or her talent are not welcome by me and hopefully many others here that want to keep this a place for fans rather than critics.

[Guest Xanthium]

I'm not gonna waste my time correcting myths and rumors

YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANNA BELIEVE

[Guest]

Hi everybody! Enjoying being a member of this forum. Thank you for being you!

I sure hope some of us stop announcing our speculations as true facts and weapons to argue with. I've done it to. So I know it's difficult. But we can rise above! I have a lot of speculations. And for now on I'm going to announce them as such, rather than as facts. And I don't have to back it up with shit if I don't want to. But I will respect others speculations if they differ from mine and not feel the need to challenge them. Also, this is a fan forum. Negative speculations about Madonna or her talent are not welcome by me and hopefully many others here that want to keep this a place for fans rather than critics.

I also want to add that what some of us view as a negative speculation, others find it endearing, neutral or even admirable. We all have our our values and some of us, like Madonna, enjoy questioning and challenging. So perhaps the the UnseenHand feels like the things he is speculating about are not really necessarily bad things to him.