Madonna for New York Times Mag (Madonna NOT happy)

[Guest jamesshot]

3 minutes ago, Samo said:

I di but you can't deny that women never stick together?  Everyone knows this and Madonna has been a victim of this her whole career.  Most people think third wave feminism is a joke because of this very reason

 

I see women being hateful, for no reason, to other women EVERYDAY practically, especially at my workplace, they rip each other apart and tear each other down but let's blame the "patriarchy" for how a grown person acts towards another person....

Samo, men do the same thing just not in the same way. 

[IsaacHarris]

On 6/5/2019 at 7:36 AM, Ven Conmigo said:

Love the photoshoot she did for this. It’s like those then and now collage fan edits on Instagram come to life! The rooftop one is beyond amazing!

 

 

 

THESE ARE INCREDIBLE 

 

 

[Samo]

Just now, jamesshot said:

Samo, men do the same thing just not in the same way. 

Nope not straight guys, they always stick together, the wolf pack mentality, dudes will lie for their bros, hence the "all boys club" sayings.  The only time straight men don't support other men is if the guy is strereotypically gay, even in 2019, a lot of men are uncomfortable with that, but a straight, red blooded, pussy loving male, gets priveledges .  I've had those priveledges too as I'm bisexual but masculine and no one thinks I like dudes too unless I tell them , which I'm open about.

 

Also I've noticed conservatives always stick together, women and yes liberals in general always "in fight" amongst each other, the "Who's oppressed the most?" Olympics

 

Shit like this got Trump elected in 2016

[Jazzy Jan]

1 hour ago, Samo said:

I di but you can't deny that women never stick together?  Everyone knows this and Madonna has been a victim of this her whole career.  Most people think third wave feminism is a joke because of this very reason

 

I see women being hateful, for no reason, to other women EVERYDAY practically, especially at my workplace, they rip each other apart and tear each other down but let's blame the "patriarchy" for how a grown person acts towards another person....

Samo,  I am a woman and I work with many woman and men, just as you do.  Yes, some women are horrible just as some men are horrible.  I don't understand WHY you as a male are so weirdly fascinated  with how other women treat other women.   You talk about it non stop. 

Honestly, would the men of this forum like it if women constantly come on and talked about how horrible men are all the time and quoting famous male idiots to prove that point and then saying "o'h, but I work with some bastards so I know what I am talking about " . .  The overwhelming majority of men on this forum treat women with respect  and despite what you keep saying,  most women do not go around deliberately putting other women down.    Some do for sure but they are in the minority.  People just focus on them. 

 

[cocolattee]

10 minutes ago, jamesshot said:

I do think Madonna needs to be more understanding of repetitive questions. She is the most famous woman in the world. She gets asked a lot of the same questions and, no doubt, it frustrates her but she could show more grace to them. Her obvious annoyance to these questions is a turn off for many and she needs to be more aware. She is intimidating and some just ask stupid questions they think are relevant. 

 I agree that she should maybe try a little harder to pretend not to be annoyed, even though I really understand her and as a fan I'm bored to death by most of her interviews lately (and it's not her fault)

In this case though it wasn't just your casual 3 minute interview on the red carpet, this was clearly planned way ahead, she mentioned months, and it was clearly meant to be focused on her work, her music and creative process. And the journalist being a woman should have meant the word SIXTY not to be mentioned anywhere. 

I guess she's feeling betrayed, and I don't blame her honestly.

[Jazzy Jan]

15 minutes ago, jamesshot said:

I had no idea Samo had that history. I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt but I am glad I didn't respond. He's from the US so I am sure he knows how The View works. It is not about liberal women when it comes to specific personalities. Most of the women on there are great on most topics but Madonna brings out a whole new level of discussion. It is sad but Madonna is polarizing and a lot of liberal women are also polarized by her. There are no "both sides are bad" on this topic as conservatives have spent more money damning Madonna than they have on most liberal policies. Murdoch has been a cancer on this world and his publications have made it a sport on taking on Madonna. Spoiler- she's winning. 

Yes, Murdoch has always hated Madonna.  Have known that from reading the Melbourne Herald Scum in the 80's where she was torn apart all the time.   He owns so much of the media too.  

[Guest jamesshot]

1 minute ago, Jazzy Jan said:

Yes, Murdoch has always hated Madonna.  Have known that from reading the Melbourne Herald Scum in the 80's where she was torn apart all the time.   He owns so much of the media too.  

He owns too much in Australia and I can't believe he is allowed to. The conservative press, everywhere, has gone after her with a ferocity unlike any other artist. She is the #1 existential threat to all of them. I don't cast stones at Australia since, looking at our current shit-fest of a president, I would have no leg to stand on.

@Cocolattee- I do think she must understand, no matter the standing of the person interviewing her, she must project a more understanding person. Madonna is so big that honestly, any question to her could be seen as either a great question or pedestrian. 

@Samo It is a much different dynamic with women. And trust me, I've been fucked over by both straight men and women. The common thread has always been conservative. I've always had an issue with conservative men and women being an out, but not feminine, gay male. Everyone knows men have their specific issues in how they deal with others, and women do. No matter their political persuasion. However, I've always been dealt with in a more fair manner with liberal men and women. Liberal women in the entertainment industry, is completely different than your average liberal woman. I don't know your history on here that Jazzy Jan talks about but I will won't judge you until I hear your full arguments. But, Jan is my girl!  

[Morrigan]

4 hours ago, jamesshot said:

Someone mentioned this will be discussed on The View. Most likely. And they will be nasty towards her yet if this were ANY other female, they'd knock themselves out defending, over defending.

If they, by chance, aren't openly nasty towards her (unlikely), their words will drip with sarcasm, eye rolls and all that. They'll make it known they don't like her even if they don't openly act nasty towards her.

We shouldn’t let The View get away with it on social media

[BlondAmbition1990]

if she worked so close with the Reporter over months, i don´t get why she does not get the article to read before it´s release

[Samo]

5 minutes ago, BlondAmbition1990 said:

if she worked so close with the Reporter over months, i don´t get why she does not get the article to read before it´s release

Right?

[Guest jamesshot]

11 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

We shouldn’t let The View get away with it on social media

Hell no, drag them to hell and back. LOL

[Jim34]

36 minutes ago, BlondAmbition1990 said:

if she worked so close with the Reporter over months, i don´t get why she does not get the article to read before it´s release

That was my thought too

[Guest jamesshot]

With her stature, I would think she would have had a preview before its release. That said, her reaction will not get a positive result but I have not walked in her shoes. She needs to rehad her image in a lot of ways. There are so many misconceptions about her she does not help with her reactions sometimes. Her "patriarchy" comments seem a bit much given the context but I also know few have felt the sting of the patriarchy has much as Madonna. Which is strange. A pop singer (we know she is more than that) gets that much of a reaction shows she is far more than a pop singer.
""

[Mattress]

I'm really confused by her reaction.

[Guest jamesshot]

6 minutes ago, Mattress said:

I'm really confused by her reaction.

We'll never know why she felt so strongly. We can feel it was right or wrong but this woman has gone through so much and been betrayed so much I don't blame her. I do think she needs to be more (maybe she is) cognizant of the perception of her. So many don't get to see the dynamic, warm, funny person she is. 

[Jeby]

I actually praised the article on first read and even thanked the reporter. After Madonna's reaction I read it again and see Madonna's point. I think we have dealt with so many terrible articles about Madonna that this one was fine with us since it is not terrible as such. But Madonna has become hypersensitive to these things because she has had enough. I have had enough and I am not the subject. So we can not even begin to imagine how Madonna feels. Especially if she let that girl into her life and expected different. They must have had a chat as to what it would be and it is totally different which is why M is pissed.

 

[Herfaceremains]

Here are some additional points I wanted to share:

1. “Liberalism” and the male patriarchy are not mutually exclusive.

2. The male patriarchy is not an exclusively male club. People often conform to societal rules in order to serve their own agendas, and in turn are quite happy to fuck over others of their own “tribe” in the process.

3. Often men stick together in order to get away with things. I’m not sure I’d view this is an admirable trait. 

4. Madonna does not need to adjust anything about how she does anything because to imply so is to think she is not understanding something that you are. That is most probably preposterous as she is the most successful entertainer in the world. It could also be seen as an angle that supports the very concept Madonna is fighting against. The pernicious unconscious bias of the male patriarchy, which can filter into the views of even the most “liberal” of thinkers.

I’m pretty sure the corporate media is generally considered to be under the influence of the long-standing agenda of the male patriarchy. That includes moronic daytime television shows hosted by women such as The View. No one actually thinks anyone on that panel is expressing a raw, unfiltered opinion, do they? Who decided the rules they follow? Could it be the male patriarchy?

Also, it’s wonderful that everyone has their own experience, but no one is Madonna, which is why there isn’t a forum devoted to any of us. I trust that her response was justified, and that she will continue to provoke and thrive. The entire news cycle has taken to her every move in this promo cycle like flies to shit. So she wins again, even if it isn’t with the same former gleeful cynicism as, say, releasing the Justify My Love video 29 years ago. Profiteering is no longer acceptable to Madame X. Spreading your word is!

[justinian]

It all feels like not the usual madonna...the entire reaction, the fact she seemed not in control with what is going to be the final article before publication and that she allowed the reporter in her privacy, around her (house). So that she might felt vulnerable by letting once her guard down. From this perspective, I think it’s rather normal that she, Madonna I’ve grown to perceive in a certain manner, wont be happy with the result following such new uncontrolled approach, perhaps she’s not used to get herself exposed...I don’t know, but all in one, me Ive gotten a quite new vibe from her with this reaction.

[Jazzy Jan]

24 minutes ago, Jeby said:

I actually praised the article on first read and even thanked the reporter. After Madonna's reaction I read it again and see Madonna's point. I think we have dealt with so many terrible articles about Madonna that this one was fine with us since it is not terrible as such. But Madonna has become hypersensitive to these things because she has had enough. I have had enough and I am not the subject. So we can not even begin to imagine how Madonna feels. Especially if she let that girl into her life and expected different. They must have had a chat as to what it would be and it is totally different which is why M is pissed.

 

I still like the article.   Thought the praise given to her was authentic and true.  Do respect though that many others on this forum don't feel the same and also that Madonna did not like it.  It has ended up a very polarising article and interesting to read all the views about it.  

Still think it was a positive article and captured the journalist's admiration for Madonna and painted Madonna in a very positive light.  Was self indulgent in many ways but think it was interesting and loved many of the points she made - ie  her obvious love for Madonna and how she influenced her , her somewhat fear in interviewing the woman she adored since childhood and her comments on how much of a legend Madonna is.  How she influenced all that come after her and how they would not even be here without Madonna.   I did not think that she denigrated Madonna's artistry, talent or influence like so many articles do. .  

This thread has been very interesting with stacks of different views.  Loved too that we heard from journalists such as @acko and @karbatal - who both were not impressed with the interview and always value their input as journalists.   Anyway,  most don't agree but like everything about Madonna,  fascinating to see the comments and different views. 

[VogueMusic]

On 6/4/2019 at 9:10 PM, Kurt420 said:

Like there's "shame" showing unapologetic love to a "pop star" so a certain amount of nitpicking must take place......even if it's obvious the person is grasping at straws or playing to a tired, disproven (time and time again) narrative that she's "not that talented". Someone around here made the comparison to Hillary Clinton recently and I think that's a great way to put it tqqh. Not saying everything Madonna has done is perfect but there are certain untrue narratives that have become "fact" over the years in regard to her and people simply believe them without even questioning it or really even fully understanding why. 

I LOVE Bowie and his voice but to call him a vocal genius is a huge stretch.....it's certainly a unique and distinctive voice but Sinatra he's not.....same can be said of Jagger, Dylan and so many others that seem to be unquestionably "worshipped". Men singing "rock" music will always get a pass though for their voices because "they rock". I've always said Madonna is a rock star that just happens to do "pop songs" and in my opinion that's where people tend to go wrong in their approach to her. They always like to compare her with other "divas" that are all about "the voice" or basic pop girls that want to please their audience and just be "sexy" and sing cute little pop ditties and Madonna has NEVER been about any of that. Preaching to the choir here but Madonna doesn't do what she does because she thinks she's an amazing singer or because she thinks she's sooooo hot and sexy, she does it so she can have a huge platform to say what she wants to say. Perhaps if people could grasp that, their whole approach to reviewing her would be different. 

 

On 6/5/2019 at 3:12 PM, jamesshot said:

I've got to rant for a second-

Can't some of these motherfuckers write a review about, you know, the actual fucking music and not their personal feelings or agenda against Madonna? She isn't relevant? Who cares you fucking deranged POS. Review the music, thanks. We will decide if she is relevant, not some fucking lowlife who probably hates women because no one will fuck him. Incels have taken over the critics circles. Shove your tiresome, clique back handed compliments straight up your poorly wiped asses. 

I also don't need to hear what they think of her talents. There is an agenda there. They throw it in so casually so it seems as accepted fact. Her detractors do it all the time. It is tiresome. We don't need for you to conjecture about how you "think" the song is awesome due to Mirwais or whoever. I wonder what the music of the most successful woman of all time has in common? Oh yes, MADONNA! Funny how many of her collaborators can never duplicate the success they have with her. Oh, it must be all the men she surrounds herself with, right? Yeah, you're onto her secret you incel, melon fucking assholes. 

I don't need you to tell me how old she is. I can do math, thanks. While we are at it, how old are you? Whatever age, the way you act and write about Madonna would be embarrassing for anyone who is older than 10. It is hard to believe some of you are taken seriously when you cannot separate your personal feelings from your professional judgement. May your fingers find a chainsaw to run into. She's 60? FOR REAL? No way. Who would've known? 

I don't know where the hate and vitriol comes from. No other artists is treated this way that I know of. The disrespect is off the charts yet all you knuckle-dragging fucktards, at the end of the day, have to give a good review when you know the product is quality lest you stand out when everyone else comes out with a positive review and you're the outlier. So you begrudgingly give it up, though not without many qualifiers about how she has a few clunky lyrics (don't they all you fuckers? Do you point those out?) or she picks the right people. Lets but real, at the end of the day, you fuckers know it is Madonna who is the talent behind the product you just endorsed though you'll never say it out loud. Shhhh it'll out little secret. Now, fuck off into a beehive.

 

I know these are older posts, but they were so brilliant I had to bump 'em. Well said!!! 

Read them for filth @jamesshot   

 

 

[VogueMusic]

14 hours ago, XXL said:

What the hell are you talking about

That is not what I am saying at all!

6 hours ago, Jazzy Jan said:

I wish you would put as much effort into talking of Madonna's new songs etc as you do to getting stuck into" Liberal women"  and saying most women are like that and don't stick together.   Your misogyny is breathtakingly transparent.  Who cares about those idiots on the View, the Talk etc who are just paid to sprout nonsense.  Hardly hard hitting shows. 

Come back to us when you want to talk about Piers Morgan, Roger Friedman, Morrissey, Rufas Wainwright, Elton John etc.  O'h and make sure you mention how men are so nasty about Madonna etc.   When of course,  only some men are just as only some women are.   Would never judge men on these idiots so please don't judge women on those idiots you keep referring to. 

For God's sake, give it a rest. 

It has become continuously clear these comments about Madonna are always a (not-so) thinly veiled way to slip one's own politics into the conversation... and to only see things through the lens of liberals/women/the left/etc. always being the issue, but very little to nothing said about the other side. Now more than ever, I've always found that rather transparent.

 

12 hours ago, Jazzy Jan said:

Why are we always reading that "women don't support other women and hate other women"    That itself is the definition of misogyny.  The way so many lump all women together as jealous, nasty women haters.  Sure there are plenty of horrible nasty women out there who put other women down,  but people are always highlighting them. .  What about all of the women that love Madonna, respect her and are massive fans of hers.  Believe me, there are PLENTY of these women around - and a lot of them are on this forum.  I actually think more women support Madonna than ones that don't.  

Also,  why do women have to support all other women ?   Not talking about Madonna here but have seen that reference used for Margaret Thatcher through to Kim Kardashian.  Why should women feel they have to support women they don't agree with or don't respect ?  If a female politician is horrible and toxic, do we have to support her because she is a woman ?   If a female celebrity is famous for nothing other than having a rich family and making a reality show,  do we have to support her and defend her  ?    In contrast, they will support other women with political ideas they respect or female stars who have talent.  Thus why so many women adore Madonna.  Can't we stop with this whole " woman are not supportive"  stuff by pointing out the ones that are not even worth talking about.

And once again, Jazzy speaks the truth. 

[XXL]

6 hours ago, cocolattee said:

I understand her frustration,her interviews in recent years have been a constant repeat of the same dumb questions over and over again (those God awful radio "interviews" from a few days ago are a perfect example)

I think this time with the NYT she really wanted total focus on the record and her work, instead of other aspects that nobody really gives a damn about hence why she gave the journalist total access to her creative process. And I wouldn't be surprised if that was the agreement, although the result is quite "disappointing".  Her reaction might seem a bit too much if you consider just this one interview, but if you think about the fact that she's been working her ass off for creating an interesting musical project but all these journalists seem to focus on is her age, her being a mother and still working, as if there was no interest at all in her art, must be incredibly irritating.

And it's been going on for years, remember at the MDNA tour premiere where she snapped at that dumb girl asking AGAIN about her exercise routine on tour or when she started every RH promo interview saying that if the journalist asked dumb questions they would have to drink tequila shots.... no wonder she doesn't like to do interviews and promo anymore, I wouldn't either!!

 

Very well said

Thank you

[XXL]

9 hours ago, jamesshot said:

Good question, peter. I've never seen someone so beat up by the press in the most vile, disgusting ways. No one. And from day one. She really has never had a break. When she did get a break, they'd still fuck her over somehow. It was never the ass-kissing some get 24/7/365. They beat the hell out of her in such personal ways. Yet, through it all, she remained very popular and the best selling/most successful female artist ever- by far. When album sales started to dry up (and globally, she was still ranked pretty high), she became an even larger touring force all the while NOT playing GH tours (and I wish she had at least once- I know I know). 

Yet, she continues to fight. Not always in ways I agree with but I don't walk in her shoes.

 

Another great point, thank you. Sometimes even some of her own fans forget this in their assessment of Madonna, both as a person and as an artist

[XXL]

6 hours ago, IsaacHarris said:

 

THESE ARE INCREDIBLE 

 

 

 

[XXL]

3 hours ago, Jeby said:

I actually praised the article on first read and even thanked the reporter. After Madonna's reaction I read it again and see Madonna's point. I think we have dealt with so many terrible articles about Madonna that this one was fine with us since it is not terrible as such. But Madonna has become hypersensitive to these things because she has had enough. I have had enough and I am not the subject. So we can not even begin to imagine how Madonna feels. Especially if she let that girl into her life and expected different. They must have had a chat as to what it would be and it is totally different which is why M is pissed.

 

[Michael.]

17 hours ago, Pera said:

That said, I think Madonna is overreacting and to publicly shame someone like that is nasty. Maybe she had a bad day, did the label send her numbers for albums presales or something.

I genuinely liked you back in the day but you have legit turned into a proper fuckhead. This comment alone is the epitome of cognitive dissonance. Fuck off back to the other shore and the riverwide circle jerk.

Your attempts at being an intellectual are so pathetic I can understand why you're such a miserable human being.

Before hearing Vogue you probably didn't even know who Bette Davis or Marlene Dietrich were and now you have the audacity to look down on Madonna for not meeting your absurd expectations. Seriously go fuck yourself.

[XXL]

6 hours ago, Jazzy Jan said:

Samo,  I am a woman and I work with many woman and men, just as you do.  Yes, some women are horrible just as some men are horrible.  I don't understand WHY you as a male are so weirdly fascinated  with how other women treat other women.   You talk about it non stop. 

Honestly, would the men of this forum like it if women constantly come on and talked about how horrible men are all the time and quoting famous male idiots to prove that point and then saying "o'h, but I work with some bastards so I know what I am talking about " . .  The overwhelming majority of men on this forum treat women with respect  and despite what you keep saying,  most women do not go around deliberately putting other women down.    Some do for sure but they are in the minority.  People just focus on them. 

 

[VogueMusic]

3 hours ago, Herfaceremains said:

Here are some additional points I wanted to share:

1. “Liberalism” and the male patriarchy are not mutually exclusive.

2. The male patriarchy is not an exclusively male club. People often conform to societal rules in order to serve their own agendas, and in turn are quite happy to fuck over others of their own “tribe” in the process.

3. Often men stick together in order to get away with things. I’m not sure I’d view this is an admirable trait. 

4. Madonna does not need to adjust anything about how she does anything because to imply so is to think she is not understanding something that you are. That is most probably preposterous as she is the most successful entertainer in the world. It could also be seen as an angle that supports the very concept Madonna is fighting against. The pernicious unconscious bias of the male patriarchy, which can filter into the views of even the most “liberal” of thinkers.

I’m pretty sure the corporate media is generally considered to be under the influence of the long-standing agenda of the male patriarchy. That includes moronic daytime television shows hosted by women such as The View. No one actually thinks anyone on that panel is expressing a raw, unfiltered opinion, do they? Who decided the rules they follow? Could it be the male patriarchy?

Also, it’s wonderful that everyone has their own experience, but no one is Madonna, which is why there isn’t a forum devoted to any of us. I trust that her response was justified, and that she will continue to provoke and thrive. The entire news cycle has taken to her every move in this promo cycle like flies to shit. So she wins again, even if it isn’t with the same former gleeful cynicism as, say, releasing the Justify My Love video 29 years ago. Profiteering is no longer acceptable to Madame X. Spreading your word is!

[XXL]

20 minutes ago, VogueMusic said:

It has become continuously clear these comments about Madonna are always a (not-so) thinly veiled way to slip one's own politics into the conversation... and to only see things through the lens of liberals/women/the left/etc. always being the issue, but very little to nothing said about the other side. Now more than ever, I've always found that rather transparent

 

Totally

[XXL]

3 hours ago, Herfaceremains said:

Here are some additional points I wanted to share:

1. “Liberalism” and the male patriarchy are not mutually exclusive.

2. The male patriarchy is not an exclusively male club. People often conform to societal rules in order to serve their own agendas, and in turn are quite happy to fuck over others of their own “tribe” in the process.

3. Often men stick together in order to get away with things. I’m not sure I’d view this is an admirable trait. 

4. Madonna does not need to adjust anything about how she does anything because to imply so is to think she is not understanding something that you are. That is most probably preposterous as she is the most successful entertainer in the world. It could also be seen as an angle that supports the very concept Madonna is fighting against. The pernicious unconscious bias of the male patriarchy, which can filter into the views of even the most “liberal” of thinkers.

I’m pretty sure the corporate media is generally considered to be under the influence of the long-standing agenda of the male patriarchy. That includes moronic daytime television shows hosted by women such as The View. No one actually thinks anyone on that panel is expressing a raw, unfiltered opinion, do they? Who decided the rules they follow? Could it be the male patriarchy?

Also, it’s wonderful that everyone has their own experience, but no one is Madonna, which is why there isn’t a forum devoted to any of us. I trust that her response was justified, and that she will continue to provoke and thrive. The entire news cycle has taken to her every move in this promo cycle like flies to shit. So she wins again, even if it isn’t with the same former gleeful cynicism as, say, releasing the Justify My Love video 29 years ago. Profiteering is no longer acceptable to Madame X. Spreading your word is!

 

Which is exactly what I was trying to say when I was "informed" that the NYT is prestigious and liberal. And just for that she'd have no business snapping at them, supposedly

Shit, you don't say. Something can have prestige and still be malevolent, ambiguous if not downright dishonest

Plus all the rest of course