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2020 U.S. Election

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56 minutes ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

And that was 35 years ago. So how is this supposed prove any point in the present discussion. It's no different than Republicans claiming that the Democrats are the racists because they voted against the 13th amendment in 1865, while Republicans have ever been so nice to people of colour because Lincoln was Republican. 

Also, why seems arguing about Hillary Clinton always so one sided in recent recent years? Of course its all about the negatives or irrational fear about things to happen once she became president, like WWIII. Appears to me as if many people still Looking for a desperate excuse why they did not vote for Hillary in 2016 or did not vote at all and in result helped Trump to ascend to the throne. I think there is much guilty conscience. And it will only get worse, if Trump wins another election. She is not even running this year, yet people will blame her. 

She still acts and legislated like a Republican. Voted for Bush’s wars while Senator of NYC. A persons record is relevant to assess future behavior. She’s not a person of the people. She’s for the donor class. She herself said she has a different script for her corporate donors and one for everyone else. She’s not for the people. She’s for maintaining the establishment.  

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duplicate post, sorry. 
 

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2 hours ago, Kelmadfan said:

She still acts and legislated like a Republican. Voted for Bush’s wars while Senator of NYC. A persons record is relevant to assess future behavior. She’s not a person of the people. She’s for the donor class. She herself said she has a different script for her corporate donors and one for everyone else. She’s not for the people. She’s for maintaining the establishment.  

Yeah and? Most people in NYC supported them at the time, before they knew better.

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I swear to God you'd think Hillary Clinton single handedly caused every horrible thing in the world politically (and otherwise) these past 25 yrs with the way people place blame on her for EVERYTHING....literally EVERYTHING, even now (and she's not active politically) is "her fault". I would never say some of the criticisms aren't justified.....but at a certain point it becomes ridiculous. Any of the atrocities she may have been complicit in, were FAR from just HER doing, however, you'd never really know that with how obsessed people are with placing the blame on her solely. Why doesn't John Kerry get even a sliver of the criticism she gets? Even Bush #2 doesn't get the shit she gets now. By far the most hated politician that was never even president.

And deny deny deny all you want....there IS a modicum (and I'm being generous) of sexism involved. I woke up with a headache today.....Hillary's fault?? 🙄

And let me add, I can't think of anyone that has been as publicly humiliated by her husband's "extramarital" behavior and SHE is the one that gets blamed for it. There was (and is) ZERO sympathy towards her for that. There's also zero acknowledgement for her getting through that mess. Not only is there no acknowledgement but it's perfectly acceptable to shame and blame her for HIS behavior. Truly, I've never seen anything like it. I find her similar to Madonna in a sense in that, you can pretty much say whatever horrible things you'd like, blame her for things that aren't necessarily her fault and NOBODY cares. All bets are off when it comes to Hillary.....even in this "SJW" era we live in. The latest thing is acting like Monica was some poor kid that didn't know what she was doing and Hillary was complicit with it all. That's bullshit. That woman was an adult that was flat out in love with another woman's husband. I'm not shaming Monica, she was indeed young and probably vulnerable and naive but please let's not act like Bill snatched up some 14 year old while Hillary turned a blind eye.

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2 hours ago, I Don’t Search I Find said:

Yeah and? Most people in NYC supported them at the time, before they knew better.

And what? 

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Oh FFS *enough w/ the 'establishment' bullshiate. :doh:Blacks decisively giving Joe the win South friggin Carolina are 'establishment' lmFao. Trump didn't run as 'establishment' and he's McCarthy, Hitler, Stalin, TMZ, Gotti and Bob Barker redux The LOWEST, seediest and worst we SHOULD ever see the likes of again. Who ever truly thought W Bush would be seen as NOT being the worst in modern history and one of the worst of ALL time and now considered semi moderate, decent. Yup...it happened by 100 miles. It's not ALL Trump though. There's way smarter more sinister people behind the dark $ scenes who've been waiting for a 'Trump' to be the loud horrid distraction- someone they'd absolutely flush in a second when THEY feel he's useless and/or they got what they wanted. 

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54 minutes ago, Kurt420 said:

I swear to God you'd think Hillary Clinton single handedly caused every horrible thing in the world politically (and otherwise) these past 25 yrs with the way people place blame on her for EVERYTHING....literally EVERYTHING, even now (and she's not active politically) is "her fault". I would never say some of the criticisms aren't justified.....but at a certain point it becomes ridiculous. Any of the atrocities she may have been complicit in, were FAR from just HER doing, however, you'd never really know that with how obsessed people are with placing the blame on her solely. Why doesn't John Kerry get even a sliver of the criticism she gets? Even Bush #2 doesn't get the shit she gets now. By far the most hated politician that was never even president.

And deny deny deny all you want....there IS a modicum (and I'm being generous) of sexism involved. I woke up with a headache today.....Hillary's fault?? 🙄

And let me add, I can't think of anyone that has been as publicly humiliated by her husband's "extramarital" behavior and SHE is the one that gets blamed for it. There was (and is) ZERO sympathy towards her for that. There's also zero acknowledgement for her getting through that mess. Not only is there no acknowledgement but it's perfectly acceptable to shame and blame her for HIS behavior. Truly, I've never seen anything like it. I find her similar to Madonna in a sense in that, you can pretty much say whatever horrible things you'd like, blame her for things that aren't necessarily her fault and NOBODY cares. All bets are off when it comes to Hillary.....even in this "SJW" era we live in. The latest thing is acting like Monica was some poor kid that didn't know what she was doing and Hillary was complicit with it all. That's bullshit. That woman was an adult that was flat out in love with another woman's husband. I'm not shaming Monica, she was indeed young and probably vulnerable and naive but please let's not act like Bill snatched up some 14 year old while Hillary turned a blind eye.

 

Hope you are not referring to me because I didn't blame Hilary for the past 25 years of history. I simply noticed all the analogies in American political history where in a country of 300m people it's always the samey samey elite two people who end up being the presidential candidates, thus giving the illusion of choice and "democracy" but in reality you're facing two options who represent the two faces of the same imperialistic coin. That's all

And no, misogyny does not have a role, certainly on my part, I gave very specific and pertinent examples as to why, among the Dem camp, Hillary Clinton should never have been a nominee in the first place.

And her own political track record aside, particularly given the rethoric Trump is accustomed to using and which is so appealing to a huge portion of the American public

Since we were discussing Sanders Vs Biden, the analogies I'm referring to. Biden is another Clinton Vs Trump. Sanders represents a real U turn instead and a breath of fresh air.

Middle America and the non coastal population is going to vote for Trump again, unless the Dems adopt a more credible stance and show some nerve rather than the mere demonisation of Trump, aided by a complicit media of course.

Truth is that their general attitude bar the Warrens and Sanders is counterproductive, they make it easy for the Trumps of the world to win, especially in a country like the US which is not homogeneously educated and aware

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8 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

I do not envy any Democrat president that has to clean up the sh*t the current administration has done. One thought it was already an huge task for Obama to rebuild international relationships, especially with Europe, after the Iraq war. But can you imagine what it takes now? I personally do believe the damage is done forever. Let's face it, there are already Things happening in secret. Preparations if you will. In case Trump wins another election, Things will happen sooner.

It is highly likely the Europe will cut ties with the U.S. on defense issues. Europe will finally create a European Army and this will most likely be the end of NATO.

Something that is not neccessarily a bad thing considering NATO was more or less an extension of U.S. powers.

Once those ties are cut, Europe will stand on its own with more self-esteem and will use its power an influence more in the interest of Europe. But it will no end there.

I think we will finally see changes on the international trade and taxation issues, that are already long overdue and that for whatever reason, Brussels in unable to deal with. 

 

And that's exactly the point of the matter, what people in Washington don't want and everything that yes, even someone like Hilary Clinton has fought against. The US governments and the CIA don't want the US to lose their grip on total control of the world (eternal militarisation, violence fostering and the US Dollar/ Saudi Oil as World Reserve currency introduced by Nixon, rather than a mineral resources based system, of which surprise surprise Africa is rich) and they will use and promote ANY candidate, ANY elected President, of ANY of the two only existing parties to achieve that goal

Ever asked ourselves why the West in general always turns a blind eye to the crimes committed in Saudi Arabia, to the children of Yemen they are slaughtering with Western sold arms, one recent example, but has been working 24/7 for decades to demonize Iran? To the extent of even utilising Saudi Arabia and Israel to do so. One of many questions

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5 hours ago, Kelmadfan said:

She still acts and legislated like a Republican. Voted for Bush’s wars while Senator of NYC. A persons record is relevant to assess future behavior. She’s not a person of the people. She’s for the donor class. She herself said she has a different script for her corporate donors and one for everyone else. She’s not for the people. She’s for maintaining the establishment.  

 

This

And can we please stop with the Madonna comparisons. The strong powerful women complex is poisonous, misleading and a tad juvenile. They are both strong powerful women but it doesn't necessarily mean that they should be equally celebrated.

I'd rather look at what a person says Vs what they actually do or have done, male or female

 

Madonna scores 10 on that one

Hillary minus 10

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29 minutes ago, XXL said:

 

Hope you are not referring to me because I didn't blame Hilary for the past 25 years of history. I simply noticed all the analogies in American political history where in a country of 300m people it's always the samey samey elite two people who end up being the presidential candidates, thus giving the illusion of choice and "democracy" but in reality you're facing two options who represent the two faces of the same imperialistic coin. That's all

And no, misogyny does not have a role, certainly on my part, I gave very specific and pertinent examples as to why, among the Dem camp, Hillary Clinton should never have been a nominee in the first place.

And her own political track record aside, particularly given the rethoric Trump is accustomed to using and which is so appealing to a huge portion of the American public

Since we were discussing Sanders Vs Biden, the analogies I'm referring to. Biden is another Clinton Vs Trump. Sanders represents a real U turn instead and a breath of fresh air.

Middle America and the non coastal population is going to vote for Trump again, unless the Dems adopt a more credible stance and show some nerve rather than the mere demonisation of Trump, aided by a complicit media of course.

Truth is that their general attitude bar the Warrens and Sanders is counterproductive, they make it easy for the Trumps of the world to win, especially in a country like the US which is not homogeneously educated and aware

No, I'm not referring to you or necessarily anyone in this thread. I was more just generally speaking, based on my observations all of these years, mainly those of the far right tbh that simply consider her the absolute devil. I do think she's done good things and think she's incredibly smart. I also think the outright blind hatred people have for her is misplaced and it's impossible for ONE person to be responsible for the things she's given full blame for by many. Not to mention the out and out lies/conspiracies that surround her that have no basis on facts. That doesn't excuse her for any bad things she's done though. My whole thing is why don't others get the same venom she does? People that have done far worse and have more power. Something isn't right about that to me. 

I do understand both sides are shady and have committed heinous, terrible things and there's definitely someone (or something) above them even that are calling many of the shots. I'm totally with you in regard to Bernie. I do have my reservations about how he'd fare with the general, "moderate" public, the "swing voters", however, I still placed my vote for him in the primaries this week and will happily vote for him if he's the nom in the general election. I don't find his policies extreme but I am skeptical about what he could realistically get done. I feel like he'd either win very big or lose very big against Trump, I don't think it'd be a race that was super "tight". If not Bernie, it is indeed going to take someone "outside of the box" to really grab people again. 

And btw, I do (and always have) valued your opinions and enjoy your posts. :inlove:  You'd be the last person I'd consider misogynistic or "sexist" so sorry if you or anyone here thought I was specifically talking about them. Again, it's just generally speaking based on reading/hearing many different things over the years. 

 

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49 minutes ago, XXL said:

 

This

And can we please stop with the Madonna comparisons. The strong powerful women complex is poisonous, misleading and a tad juvenile. They are both strong powerful women but it doesn't necessarily mean that they should be equally celebrated.

I'd rather look at what a person says Vs what they actually do or have done, male or female

 

Madonna scores 10 on that one

Hillary minus 10

Agreed. I never would compare HRC and Madonna. Ever.

I love Madonna. 💜

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1 hour ago, XXL said:

 

And that's exactly the point of the matter, what people in Washington don't want and everything that yes, even someone like Hilary Clinton has fought against. The US governments and the CIA don't want the US to lose their grip on total control of the world (eternal militarisation, violence fostering and the US Dollar/ Saudi Oil as World Reserve currency introduced by Nixon, rather than a mineral resources based system, of which surprise surprise Africa is rich) and they will use and promote ANY candidate, ANY elected President, of ANY of the two only existing parties to achieve that goal

Ever asked ourselves why the West in general always turns a blind eye to the crimes committed in Saudi Arabia, to the children of Yemen they are slaughtering, one recent example, but has been working 24/7 for decades to demonize Iran? To the extent of even utilising Saudi Arabia and Israel to do so. One of many questions

This. Right. Here. 👆

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8 hours ago, Kelmadfan said:

She still acts and legislated like a Republican. Voted for Bush’s wars while Senator of NYC. A persons record is relevant to assess future behavior. She’s not a person of the people. She’s for the donor class. She herself said she has a different script for her corporate donors and one for everyone else. She’s not for the people. She’s for maintaining the establishment.  

No, she didn't. You cherry pick her record. I wonder if some of you really look at the two parties and understand how fundamentally they are very different. The GOP is an abhorrent, mean, nasty party which only care about the very rich, business and the concerns of the very religious (Christian mainly) and white. Democrats have always pushed for policies that benefit the people- Clinton gave actual gun control, attempted health care reform, tax increases on the wealthy and a balanced budget with surpluses. Obama actually gave health care reform, saved us from a deep Depression, tax increases on the wealthy, a declining deficit, saved the auto industry. Neither man was perfect nor their policies but they advanced so many things to help the average person. Obama took the most Wall Street cash in 2008 then turned around and screwed Wall Street hard with reforms. Then he created the organization Warren supported and appointed her to it. In 2012, Wall Street turned to Romney but still gave to Obama. He turned around and screwed them again. Both Clinton and Obama were stopped or slowed by a GOP Congress. Democrats represent very diverse sections of the USA. Many represent areas which are very moderate. The choice is either a "corporate donor class Democrat" -which is a Russian talking point and it is completely stupid and wrong- or a very conservative Republican who will vote for more extreme conservative judges. Russian talking points attacking Democrats have become so mainstream it is frightening. They started those talking points way before 2016.

I am sick of bothsides and whataboutism. Both sides are not equally responsible for the shit that has happened. The USA was turned into a business loving, labor hating country by the GOP. Once the rich became insanely rich, media companies were bought and consolidated and along with their new found riches came unprecedented power. With it did come more social liberalism since business is socially liberal to a large degree. Hillary's script comment is what they all do. If you listen to those tapes where she is talking to the banks it is a huge nothing burger. She actually says she will do things they do not like and says change has to be made. My Bernie Bro cousin actually liked her more after reading the transcripts. 

Bernie is not the answer. This is not 2016. Trump is a known quantity now. No one wants more of him. Bernie will get nothing done. Nothing. It will be 4 years of futile fighting. He is not getting the votes. Even young people turned out LESS this year than in 2016. I am as liberal as you can get and Bernie is just too extreme. Biden is not my first or second choice but I guarantee you he will get more progressive policies passed than a divisive Bernie would. Incrementalism works. It isn't sexy but it works. The American voting public is easily scared; look at how they reacted to the Obamacare passage? Yet, 10 years later a public option is now the MAINSTREAM position! You have to ease them into something. A revolution is not what they want though they need it. A nice grandpa can ease them into some of those changes. Biden will get a lot of good accomplished I have no doubt.

 

3 hours ago, Kurt420 said:

I swear to God you'd think Hillary Clinton single handedly caused every horrible thing in the world politically (and otherwise) these past 25 yrs with the way people place blame on her for EVERYTHING....literally EVERYTHING, even now (and she's not active politically) is "her fault". I would never say some of the criticisms aren't justified.....but at a certain point it becomes ridiculous. Any of the atrocities she may have been complicit in, were FAR from just HER doing, however, you'd never really know that with how obsessed people are with placing the blame on her solely. Why doesn't John Kerry get even a sliver of the criticism she gets? Even Bush #2 doesn't get the shit she gets now. By far the most hated politician that was never even president.

And deny deny deny all you want....there IS a modicum (and I'm being generous) of sexism involved. I woke up with a headache today.....Hillary's fault?? 🙄

And let me add, I can't think of anyone that has been as publicly humiliated by her husband's "extramarital" behavior and SHE is the one that gets blamed for it. There was (and is) ZERO sympathy towards her for that. There's also zero acknowledgement for her getting through that mess. Not only is there no acknowledgement but it's perfectly acceptable to shame and blame her for HIS behavior. Truly, I've never seen anything like it. I find her similar to Madonna in a sense in that, you can pretty much say whatever horrible things you'd like, blame her for things that aren't necessarily her fault and NOBODY cares. All bets are off when it comes to Hillary.....even in this "SJW" era we live in. The latest thing is acting like Monica was some poor kid that didn't know what she was doing and Hillary was complicit with it all. That's bullshit. That woman was an adult that was flat out in love with another woman's husband. I'm not shaming Monica, she was indeed young and probably vulnerable and naive but please let's not act like Bill snatched up some 14 year old while Hillary turned a blind eye.

Amen! I love everything you said! So true!

2 hours ago, Ciccone's Cheeks said:

Oh FFS *enough w/ the 'establishment' bullshiate. :doh:Blacks decisively giving Joe the win South friggin Carolina are 'establishment' lmFao. Trump didn't run as 'establishment' and he's McCarthy, Hitler, Stalin, TMZ, Gotti and Bob Barker redux The LOWEST, seediest and worst we SHOULD ever see the likes of again. Who ever truly thought W Bush would be seen as NOT being the worst in modern history and one of the worst of ALL time and now considered semi moderate, decent. Yup...it happened by 100 miles. It's not ALL Trump though. There's way smarter more sinister people behind the dark $ scenes who've been waiting for a 'Trump' to be the loud horrid distraction- someone they'd absolutely flush in a second when THEY feel he's useless and/or they got what they wanted. 

Exactly! The Establishment was poor/middle class blacks in South Carolina? Blacks and College Educated Whites came out in droves for Biden. 

We do not know what it is like to have a true Democratic administration. The last time we had this was under Pres Johnson. Clinton and Obama only had 2 years of total Democratic rule (and got a lot of great things accomplished) before Congress turned over to GOP control. I understand our generations have never felt and seen what 8 years of total Democratic control looks like and the difference it makes. When we had it, under FDR/Truman (16 years) and Kennedy/Johnson (8 years) it transformed the country for the better in so many ways. Carter had 4 years but inherited a GOP mess. Clinton and Obama were also handed GOP messes. Democrats seem to always be handed Republican messes to clean up yet Democrats always leave Republican presidents booming economies.

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3 hours ago, XXL said:

And can we please stop with the Madonna comparisons. The strong powerful women complex is poisonous, misleading and a tad juvenile. They are both strong powerful women but it doesn't necessarily mean that they should be equally celebrated.

I'd rather look at what a person says Vs what they actually do or have done, male or female

:thumbsup: I agree. When Meryl Streep played that dreadful homophobe Margaret Thatcher there was a lot of commentary about her "strength" and iron-clad persona, a "fabulous strong woman" in a male-dominated field, for other women and gays to look up. In reality she was one of the most pernicious and evil political figures in our lifetimes, championing the notion of individualism rather than society -- which took the West by storm and still reigns today. That we're all just independent consumers and should put ourselves over the greater good. She and Reagan are a large reason people hate welfare and they kept the middle and lower classes fighting with one-another while the rich ran off with all the money and power. Just the way they want it.

I feel for left-leaning Americans and this endless cycle of being pulled toward centrism, if not the right altogether.

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1 hour ago, MadFan said:

:thumbsup: I agree. When Meryl Streep played that dreadful homophobe Margaret Thatcher there was a lot of commentary about her "strength" and iron-clad persona, a "fabulous strong woman" in a male-dominated field, for other women and gays to look up. In reality she was one of the most pernicious and evil political figures in our lifetimes, championing the notion of individualism rather than society -- which took the West by storm and still reigns today. That we're all just independent consumers and should put ourselves over the greater good. She and Reagan are a large reason people hate welfare and they kept the middle and lower classes fighting with one-another while the rich ran off with all the money and power. Just the way they want it.

I feel for left-leaning Americans and this endless cycle of being pulled toward centrism, if not the right altogether.

Agree 100 %.   So sick of the whole " women don't support each other"  when calling out the likes of Margaret Thatcher.  Being strong and iron-clad is abhorrent and cruel when policies are so damaging to so many.  Seen it on this forum too - the whole " women should support other women"   I will never support ANYONE who I find hard, damaging and dangerous. Man or woman.  Also agree with how insane it is that people now are called "the loony left"  for wanting things such as health care and a fair tax system that does not favour the ultra wealthy.  As you said,  everyone on the so called left is made to feel they have to be conservative.  I watch with horror as people that have benefited from such things as medicare, great working conditions, penalty rates etc now being made to feel that these things are wrong and some even getting swayed by corporations, the right wing media and business groups.  

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6 hours ago, Jazzy Jan said:

Agree 100 %.   So sick of the whole " women don't support each other"  when calling out the likes of Margaret Thatcher.  Being strong and iron-clad is abhorrent and cruel when policies are so damaging to so many.  Seen it on this forum too - the whole " women should support other women"   I will never support ANYONE who I find hard, damaging and dangerous. Man or woman.  Also agree with how insane it is that people now are called "the loony left"  for wanting things such as health care and a fair tax system that does not favour the ultra wealthy.  As you said,  everyone on the so called left is made to feel they have to be conservative.  I watch with horror as people that have benefited from such things as medicare, great working conditions, penalty rates etc now being made to feel that these things are wrong and some even getting swayed by corporations, the right wing media and business groups.  

Absolutely. I've seen this point made in this thread, but it bears repeating that Bernie Sanders would be considered about centre-left in Canada and from what I gather most of the Western world. If any political candidate tried to abolish universal healthcare here, they would be considered further right than the most far-right party that we have, and laughed out of the room. It's heartbreaking for me that Americans will once again likely not be able to vote for universal healthcare. Having to make choices like putting food on the table or getting medical treatment - that's not histrionic rhetoric, that's reality. That the GOP party is so far right that any "electable Democrat" has to basically be 'Conservative-lite' is insane - and left-wing Americans have to compromise their values and desires every election. That's exactly why Bernie Sanders appeals to so many people - it's some long-needed fucking normality, and it's absolutely abnormal that he would not be able to pass common-sense legislation even if he were elected. That's not a failure on the part of Bernie, but on American society.

It might be frustrating for Americans to see the rest of us weighing in all the time, I honestly just want what's best for you guys because it impacts all of us and historically the US and Canada have had a fabulous relationship. Huge symbolic ripples across the world obviously - the far right globally feel more emboldened than they have in decades. Foreign policy, trade, etc. And back to healthcare, Coronavirus is going to spread much more than it would have, in your country and mine, because Trump's administration gutted the government agency that focused on tackling these scenarios, and disregarded the WHO. You also have a large population who are forced financially to work while symptomatic and especially to avoid medical treatment. And yet here we are watching as you go into yet another election where you likely will not have a candidate who promises healthcare to be free at the point of access, and couldn't get it passed anyway.

Obviously, I'd vote for a hair pin over Trump lol. 💋 Wishing you guys the best.

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There is zero way a Medicare For All would get passed by Congress. Zero. I abhor conservatism. It has ruined so many economies and lives over the years. However, Bernie isn't going to make any changes being aggressive. He is divisive. Incrementalism works. Give people a public option for health care and watch Medicare For All be a reality in 10-15 years, if not sooner. We have to give Democrats both chambers of Congress and keep it in the 2022 midterms. If we could ever get 8 years from a Democratic president with a Democratic Congress, I think we would all see the true different they would make vs always cleaning up messes after GOP presidents or having to deal with one or both chambers of Congress in GOP control. 

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14 hours ago, Kurt420 said:

No, I'm not referring to you or necessarily anyone in this thread. I was more just generally speaking, based on my observations all of these years, mainly those of the far right tbh that simply consider her the absolute devil. I do think she's done good things and think she's incredibly smart. I also think the outright blind hatred people have for her is misplaced and it's impossible for ONE person to be responsible for the things she's given full blame for by many. Not to mention the out and out lies/conspiracies that surround her that have no basis on facts. That doesn't excuse her for any bad things she's done though. My whole thing is why don't others get the same venom she does? People that have done far worse and have more power. Something isn't right about that to me

 

I am not blaming her in particular, if you look at my post history in this thread. I'm saying American politics is arrogant and not compliant with international laws and regulations, it is rotten at the root and has been for decades, now it's short-circuiting, many Democratic Presidents have enacted the same policies a Republican government would enact, there is a sort of seamless continuum (we have the same issue to a lesser degree in Europe). Unfortunately it is not an issue for US citizens only, a US election affects the entire global population.

The whole "God Bless America" rethoric and culture is tired, juvenile and just mind-boggling, assuming there is a God, given his attributes and role why would he be more concerned with America than with any other country in the world? It makes no sense :lol: 

Same thing with "America First" and so on ... No country should be above the rest or above laws that the rest has to abide by to begin with

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14 hours ago, Kurt420 said:

I'm totally with you in regard to Bernie. I do have my reservations about how he'd fare with the general, "moderate" public, the "swing voters", however, I still placed my vote for him in the primaries this week and will happily vote for him if he's the nom in the general election. I don't find his policies extreme but I am skeptical about what he could realistically get done. I feel like he'd either win very big or lose very big against Trump, I don't think it'd be a race that was super "tight". If not Bernie, it is indeed going to take someone "outside of the box" to really grab people again

 

👍 :thumbsup:

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21 hours ago, Kurt420 said:

And btw, I do (and always have) valued your opinions and enjoy your posts. :inlove:  You'd be the last person I'd consider misogynistic or "sexist" so sorry if you or anyone here thought I was specifically talking about them. Again, it's just generally speaking based on reading/hearing many different things over the years

 

Thank you :laugh:

I enjoy reading you too

And enjoy reading many others who don't share my views about Clinton or American politics in general

I've been accused of being anti-American but never a misogynist. And the fun thing is that I'm worshipping at the altar of the biggest and greatest American icon that ever was. I am not against Americans I'm against any government and their policies if they are mendacious or illiberal and downright arrogant on a physical level

I know many Americans here in Milan, a couple of them are friends, they agree with me on most of these issues

I love many things about the original American "get up and do your thing" spirit but during the past 30 years in particular it's like a silent gradual coup has been taking place and the mood has changed not just for US citizens but for the world at large, things have gotten a lot darker, you just don't understand in the name of what and to whose benefit exactly and that to most human beings ends up being frustrating

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17 hours ago, MadFan said:

:thumbsup: I agree. When Meryl Streep played that dreadful homophobe Margaret Thatcher there was a lot of commentary about her "strength" and iron-clad persona, a "fabulous strong woman" in a male-dominated field, for other women and gays to look up. In reality she was one of the most pernicious and evil political figures in our lifetimes, championing the notion of individualism rather than society -- which took the West by storm and still reigns today. That we're all just independent consumers and should put ourselves over the greater good. She and Reagan are a large reason people hate welfare and they kept the middle and lower classes fighting with one-another while the rich ran off with all the money and power. Just the way they want it.

I feel for left-leaning Americans and this endless cycle of being pulled toward centrism, if not the right altogether.

 

Absolutely!  👍

And the irony is that while she was a homophobe she had no qualms with mingling with paedophiles and the entourage that protected them, some royal family members included. Abhorrent and evil indeed

 

jimmy-savile-letter-to-margaret-thatcher

 

But yes she was a strong powerful woman! Hooray

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2 hours ago, XXL said:

 

Absolutely!  👍

And the irony is that while she was a homophobe she had no qualms with mingling paedophiles and the entourage that protected them, some royal family members included. Abhorrent and evil indeed

But yes she was a strong powerful woman! Hooray

Gender politics is the worst. 

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Just watched the documentary "Hillary" which premiered last week at the Berlin Film Festival. It's 4 hours and it adresses many things that has been discussed here. It is nothing really new but it starts with her college and university years that explain many things she did and why she did them. And most importantly you hear many people that were with her along the way to adress many situations that happened over the years. Since it is all very condensed it concentrates on many of the "scandals" that happened over the years and you can clearly see this woman has had shit trown at her for basically everything. Well, for being a woman actually. And maybe this is the real lesson here. Despite all the social progress we think we have made over the last decades, there is so much more to do. And not only this, considering the current political climate, we may fight to protect womens rights, gay rights, human rights. There is a striking similarity between Madonna and Hillary. Both women on the forefront of their field to give more power to women, do not get the recognition they deserve. Even worse, are villified by other women. But at some point people will realize that both women were the spearhead in the fight for real equality. It would be nice to see this recognition come in their lifetimes. 

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22 minutes ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

Just watched the documentary "Hillary" which premiered last week at the Berlin Film Festival. It's 4 hours and it adresses many things that has been discussed here. It is nothing really new but it starts with her college and university years that explain many things she did and why she did them. And most importantly you hear many people that were with her along the way to adress many situations that happened over the years. Since it is all very condensed it concentrates on many of the "scandals" that happened over the years and you can clearly see this woman has had shit trown at her for basically everything. Well, for being a woman actually. And maybe this is the real lesson here. Despite all the social progress we think we have made over the last decades, there is so much more to do. And not only this, considering the current political climate, we may fight to protect womens rights, gay rights, human rights. There is a striking similarity between Madonna and Hillary. Both women on the forefront of their field to give more power to women, do not get the recognition they deserve. Even worse, are villified by other women. But at some point people will realize that both women were the spearhead in the fight for real equality. It would be nice to see this recognition come in their lifetimes. 

 

I'm sorry but I totally disagree, especially on the last part and the insistence on this comparison with Madonna

Madonna is an artist, a huge public figure globally and has been for longer than Hillary, she has championed so many noble social causes and did it when it was not minimally cool to do so and for a major mainstream act to boot, but she never had to respond to a tax-paying, world watching electorate to whom in theory Hillary Clinton should be held accountable for her political views and actions.

There is an immense difference in this significant premise alone

The truth is she's been caught lying and so have other countless politicians from both sides of the spectrum. She herself admitted in an interview that the US through the CIA (as per usual) created AlQaeda in the late 70s to fight the Russians over Afghanistan etc etc 

And we all know how that brilliant idea turned out a couple of decades later

She also lamented the fact that the US media is gradually "losing their grip over the American people"

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1 hour ago, XXL said:

 

I'm sorry but I totally disagree, especially on the last part and the insistence on this comparison with Madonna

Madonna is an artist, a huge public figure globally and has been for longer than Hillary,she has championed so many noble social causes and did it when it was not minimally cool to do so and for a major mainstream act to boot but she never had to respond to a tax-paying, world watching electorate by whom in theory she should be held accountable for her political views and actions. There is an immense difference in this significant premise alone

The truth is she's been caught lying and so have other countless politicians from both sides of the spectrum. She herself admitted in an interview that the US through the CIA (as per usual) created AlQaeda in the late 70s to fight the Russians over Afghanistan etc etc 

She also lamented the fact that the US media is "losing the grip over the American people"

My comparison simply boils down to how their achievements will inspire other women, especially women of younger generations to aspire to be on top of the game and to make the impossible possible. In Madonnas case to be as powerful as any man and lately to show it is possible to do so as an older woman, in a industry that is still very much misogynist and ageist. The same or maybe even worse misogyny can be found in poltics. And yes, Hillary running for president and getting so close to being the first female president is an achievement for the ages and it has certainly inspired many women in recent years to run for public office. This will be her legacy. 

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3 hours ago, Genevieve Vavance said:

 

 

This is from the documentary I mentioned above. I think it is the only time she adresses him. But of course, the scene is taken out of context. Lets not forget that Bernie was attacking her constantly for being corrupt without presenting any evidence. And from what I see, people are way too kind to him. There is something about him that irks me. I just don't think he is a nice man. And this has nothing to do with his policies. Being from Europe, nothing he proposes is shocking to me.

And by the way, it seems as if the bots are already out in full force on Youtube. There are already hundreds of comments on all current videos about him and how he thinks there is a conspiracy going on against him, that claim to be from Bernie Bros (and some of them certainly are) all calling to boycott any other democrat candidate at the presidential elections because the primaries are rigged and they want to save democracy. Even if that means that Trump stays in office for another four years. Because it will teach the "establishment in the democratic party" a lesson. 

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On 3/6/2020 at 11:39 AM, KalamazooJay said:

Young voters have proven to be far more politically active on Twitter than they have at the voting booth. They had their choice to come out and make their revolution happen and they blew it. I’m tired of anyone 18-24 that screams about college debt, environmentalism, healthcare, etc but when you ask them who they voted for, it’s a “no one because they’re all the same”

No, child. They’re not. And while Biden was FAR from my first choice, I’ll vote for him. Because I don’t need to have the warm and fuzzies in the voting booth when I check the box. 
 

So they can all take several seats. 

YES YES YES. :clap:

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18 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

This is from the documentary I mentioned above. I think it is the only time she adresses him. But of course, the scene is taken out of context. Lets not forget that Bernie was attacking her constantly for being corrupt without presenting any evidence. And from what I see, people are way too kind to him. There is something about him that irks me. I just don't think he is a nice man. And this has nothing to do with his policies. Being from Europe, nothing he proposes is shocking to me.

And by the way, it seems as if the bots are already out in full force on Youtube. There are already hundreds of comments on all current videos about him and how he thinks there is a conspiracy going on against him, that claim to be from Bernie Bros (and some of them certainly are) all calling to boycott any other democrat candidate at the presidential elections because the primaries are rigged and they want to save democracy. Even if that means that Trump stays in office for another four years. Because it will teach the "establishment in the democratic party" a lesson. 

She's a war mongering corrupted cunt and she you feel as a hero,  she you see as real or good person yet Bernie irks you ? Yeah, caring enough to change the country for the better for people, raise minimum wage, clear student debt, medicare for all, end corruption and want to end the wars, yeah I dont think he is a nice man either. 

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1 hour ago, GOD said:

She's a war mongering corrupted cunt and she you feel as a hero,  she you see as real or good person yet Bernie irks you ? Yeah, caring enough to change the country for the better for people, raise minimum wage, clear student debt, medicare for all, end corruption and want to end the wars, yeah I dont think he is a nice man either. 

Care to present some evidence? And please, don't come up with "she voted in favor of the Iraq war" or she took money from the Saudis for the Clinton Foundation or she was giving speeches at banks. None of this is illegal. I believe in the principle of "in dubio pro reo" instead of "guilty by suspicion" and so far I have not seen anything that puts her in a category you describe. What I have seen over the years are people trying to destroy her reputation by making false claims. Claims that have been debunked over and over. But of course, if you repeat certain things over and over again, at some point it will stick and people will believe it's true no matter if it's not. 

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