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BREXIT / British Politics thread - cont

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This is fake, right? If not, I hope they kick him out of the country. Or the Queen may cancel the meeting? It's hilarious that all other members of the Royal Family had prior commitments. Yeah Right. The younger ones despise him with passion and would not honor him with their presence. They most definitely did not forget how he treated Obama. 

Anyway, on CNN they had an editor of the Spectator (I suppose that's a right wing or at least conservative publication?) who had the nerve to call the demonstrators "rude" because some had signs calling Trump a racist and a fascist. It starts getting annoying. In the name of freedom of speech they say the most offensive and divisive things, yet other people making use of their freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are "rude". Democracy truly is on life support.

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Love that people in the UK are protesting against him.  So they should.  He is disgusting in far too many way.  Nothing but a racist, fascist, sexist, ignorant, orange moron who thinks he can not only trample over the rights of people in his own country but demands other nations do the same and insults them.    I see where that revolting Piers Morgan is defending Trump and having a go at protesters.   Typical. 

Also, what a miserable horrible foursome.  

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1 hour ago, Magician said:

 

:lmao:

Oh dear journalism is gone to the fucked pits for so long!!!!!

 

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Seeing as the far right of the Tory party are holding May to ransom and demanding she either go for a "hard" Brexit (which the EU won't accept) or a no deal scenario (which would be catastrophic for the country, but party interest always takes precedence over country for the Tories) and it's looking increasingly likely that no deal is what we'll end up with, they're now drawing up contingency plans to stockpile food, medicines and blood (which official agencies are saying is virtually impossible logistically) like some sort of science fiction tale.

Now in normal times, any politician, or prime minister for that matter would be up in arms about the situation facing their country, but the Maybot (in full malfunctioning mode below) thinks instead of being alarmed, we should take "comfort" that they're stockpiling like its fucking WWII.

I wonder if the cunts who voted for this actually realised that hating the fact that there are too many people with dark skin in their shitty little town realised that they were also voting to fuck themselves right up the ass?

Even the old land of milk and honey Brexiteer politicians are admitting it could take up to 50 years to see any benefit from it (that benefit being that maybe we'll be close to what we already have right now) I'm not entirely sure that anyone outwith this country knows what a clusterfuck is going on here right now

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17 minutes ago, Kim said:

Seeing as the far right of the Tory party are holding May to ransom and demanding she either go for a "hard" Brexit (which the EU won't accept) or a no deal scenario (which would be catastrophic for the country, but party interest always takes precedence over country for the Tories) and it's looking increasingly likely that no deal is what we'll end up with, they're now drawing up contingency plans to stockpile food, medicines and blood (which official agencies are saying is virtually impossible logistically) like some sort of science fiction tale.

Now in normal times, any politician, or prime minister for that matter would be up in arms about the situation facing their country, but the Maybot (in full malfunctioning mode below) thinks instead of being alarmed, we should take "comfort" that they're stockpiling like its fucking WWII.

I wonder if the cunts who voted for this actually realised that hating the fact that there are too many people with dark skin in their shitty little town realised that they were also voting to fuck themselves right up the ass?

Even the old land of milk and honey Brexiteer politicians are admitting it could take up to 50 years to see any benefit from it (that benefit being that maybe we'll be close to what we already have right now) I'm not entirely sure that anyone outwith this country knows what a clusterfuck is going on here right now

The hate speech against migrants and such is hitting hard now Spain and, frankly, I am appalled at how stupid people can be. I am sure that those who voted yes to Brexit for xenophobic reasons still would do the same, as they don't care of consequences or simply think that "leftists" are overreacting. 

I hate this situation nowadays in all countries where we seem to be in the extremes of ideas, as if there was no common place. I feel sad about many things in the political landscape of the world right now... 

 

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2 hours ago, karbatal said:

The hate speech against migrants and such is hitting hard now Spain and, frankly, I am appalled at how stupid people can be. I am sure that those who voted yes to Brexit for xenophobic reasons still would do the same, as they don't care of consequences or simply think that "leftists" are overreacting. 

I hate this situation nowadays in all countries where we seem to be in the extremes of ideas, as if there was no common place. I feel sad about many things in the political landscape of the world right now... 

Oh we're living in an age where people do not want to admit they were wrong about anything. It's either "we dont care, that's what we voted for" "experts know nothing" "fake news" or a shrug of the shoulders because they're not affected (yet). The propogandist press of Murdoch and Rothermere who run the big newspapers brand anyone not pro Brexit as traitors and saboteurs, the BBC (which was filled with right wing executives by David Cameron a few years ago) is basically a state propaganda tool. There's very little free press left. Just today right wing thug Tommy Robinson who's the posterchild for fascist racist shitheads was released from prison on bail and the celebrations and jubilations over twitter and facebook are sickening.. 

This isn't happening in Scotland of course (just yesterday there was a mass protest in Glasgow over the forcible eviction of 300 asylum seekers by the Home Office, our front pages of the Scottish editions of those same newspapers above are never about migration or refugees because it's not something we care about etc), and I'm not saying that every English person fits that description either, but it's very much the narrative that I'm seeing and hearing from friends down south, the media and hundreds of (intelligent) people on twitter.

Oh and I just read your post above about moving to London. If you're happy to be somewhere where your Visa could be revoked at anytime for no reason at all other than you sound slightly foreign or you originate from the evil EU, then I'd reconsider. It's a very real problem with even people who've worked, paid their taxes, have British children, been here 20 years or more being told they have no legal right to stay here and being booted out the country. I'm not trying to scare monger, but if you have other European options, then please take them.

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^ This has answered my question of why and how the BBC had become right wing.  Excuse my ignorance but always thought the BBC was more left leaning in contrast to the Murdoch led newspapers which are shockingly extreme right wing.  I have always disliked that weasel David Cameron and this is yet another reason why. 

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25 minutes ago, Jazzy Jan said:

^ This has answered my question of why and how the BBC had become right wing.  Excuse my ignorance but always thought the BBC was more left leaning in contrast to the Murdoch led newspapers which are shockingly extreme right wing.  I have always disliked that weasel David Cameron and this is yet another reason.  

This kind of sums it up. As does the fact that the BBC's editior of daily politics left last year to work as Theresa May's communication adviser (to be replaced by another Tory)

bbc.jpg

 

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2 minutes ago, Kim said:

This kind of sums it up. As does the fact that the BBC's editior of daily politics left last year to work as Theresa May's communication adviser (to be replaced by another Tory)

bbc.jpg

 

Dreadful.  I fear the same happening in Australia. Just been announced this week that Fairfax media is merging with Nine network. Fairfax works closely too with the ABC and they are the ONLY investigative journalism in Australia who work on proper current affairs. The commercial current affair shows on Nine instead focus on immigration fears, supermarket prices, dodgy tradesman and welfare cheats. Over and over like clockwork. Fairfax and the ABC pushed for the Royal commission into banking and offer the only alternative in the mainstream media to Murdoch's right wing propaganda.  Sky news channel is also now being "foxified" so to speak and the extreme right wing writers now have their own shows on Sky and are featured heavily in the Sky channel which of course is owned by Rupert Murdoch. Truly frightening and this current conservative government has changed the cross media ownership laws that has allowed this to happen. 

So awful to read that about the BBC. 

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31 minutes ago, Jazzy Jan said:

Dreadful.  I fear the same happening in Australia. Just been announced this week that Fairfax media is merging with Nine network. Fairfax works closely too with the ABC and they are the ONLY investigative journalism in Australia who work on proper current affairs. The commercial current affair shows on Nine instead focus on immigration fears, supermarket prices, dodgy tradesman and welfare cheats. Over and over like clockwork. Fairfax and the ABC pushed for the Royal commission into banking and offer the only alternative in the mainstream media to Murdoch's right wing propaganda.  Sky news channel is also now being "foxified" so to speak and the extreme right wing writers now have their own shows on Sky and are featured heavily in the Sky channel which of course is owned by Rupert Murdoch. Truly frightening and this current conservative government has changed the cross media ownership laws that has allowed this to happen. 

So awful to read that about the BBC. 

Yep, it's the same story everywhere. I read recently that Murdoch has now been granted permission to take full control of Sky over here, but there was meant to be some proviso about Sky News not being included or something (but obviously that's a ruse and he'll have his sticky fingers in it somehow).

The BBC charter was up for renewal a couple of years ago, which is when the govt of the day can make changes to how it's run. What was published publicly about it was all fairly innocuous but we can be assured that they were given "guidance" over how to run their news dept. (or suffer the consequences) BBC Scotland is basically run by London and it's a constant barrage of "SNP BAAAAD" stories and sometimes downright lies and twisted narratives that various other news sources spend time debunking with real facts.. They're clearly uncomfortable that they're actually doing a damn great job all in of running the country, especially compared to the godawful chaos happening in England, and of course terrified of another possible independence referendum. The first one was when I really noticed how biased and dreadful the BBC had become as a source of news.

The BBC's latest shtick is going after Corbyn for being anti semitic. Now I'm no great fan of Corbyn seeing as he himself is an ardent Brexiteer and still completely hopeless when facing May during PMQs etc, but no one seriously thinks that he's anti semitic when he's spent his whole career being anti racist, progressve etc,  yet that's the constant narrative being pumped out. Even today that's one of their lead stories. Meanwhile senior Tory officials are having meetings with Nazi and  (ex) Trump adviser Steve Bannon and...not a squeak about it.

This really is the worst of times.

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22 minutes ago, Kim said:

Yep, it's the same story everywhere. I read recently that Murdoch has now been granted permission to take full control of Sky over here, but there was meant to be some proviso about Sky News not being included or something (but obviously that's a ruse and he'll have his sticky fingers in it somehow).

The BBC charter was up for renewal a couple of years ago, which is when the govt of the day can make changes to how it's run. What was published publicly about it was all fairly innocuous but we can be assured that they were given "guidance" over how to run their news dept. (or suffer the consequences) BBC Scotland is basically run by London and it's a constant barrage of "SNP BAAAAD" stories and sometimes downright lies and twisted narratives that various other news sources spend time debunking with real facts.. They're clearly uncomfortable that they're actually doing a damn great job all in of running the country, especially compared to the godawful chaos happening in England, and of course terrified of another possible independence referendum. The first one was when I really noticed how biased and dreadful the BBC had become as a source of news.

The BBC's latest shtick is going after Corbyn for being anti semitic. Now I'm no great fan of Corbyn seeing as he himself is an ardent Brexiteer and still completely hopeless when facing May during PMQs etc, but no one seriously thinks that he's anti semitic when he's spent his whole career being anti racist, progressve etc,  yet that's the constant narrative being pumped out. Even today that's one of their lead stories. Meanwhile senior Tory officials are having meetings with Nazi and  (ex) Trump adviser Steve Bannon and...not a squeak about it.

This really is the worst of times.

It is frightening and depressing.  Our right wing writers are always slamming Corbyn. He really is a whipping boy.  

Even more frightening is how apathetic so many people are.  I know it is overkill how much American politics dominates the news in other countries but seeing how much Murdoch papers favour Trump is a sign of the times.   I hear some people defending him and it just depresses me.  They buy right into his conspiracy theories too and don't even care that he is caught out constantly lying. 

I do see light at the end of the tunnel though. Recent bi elections and the marriage equality yes vote went against everything the conservative right wing Murdoch papers threw at the public.  I just hope Murdoch does not gain even more power.  

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56 minutes ago, Jazzy Jan said:

It is frightening and depressing.  Our right wing writers are always slamming Corbyn. He really is a whipping boy.  

Even more frightening is how apathetic so many people are.  I know it is overkill how much American politics dominates the news in other countries but seeing how much Murdoch papers favour Trump is a sign of the times.   I hear some people defending him and it just depresses me.  They buy right into his conspiracy theories too and don't even care that he is caught out constantly lying. 

I do see light at the end of the tunnel though. Recent bi elections and the marriage equality yes vote went against everything the conservative right wing Murdoch papers threw at the public.  I just hope Murdoch does not gain even more power.  

The minute that old cunt Murdoch got away with that phone hacking scandal, the pretence was up. If you're rich enough you can get away with anything. Still can't quite wrap my head around the fact that the daft fucks complaining about the "elites" that those very newspapers keep going on about don't realise that it's those elites who own and control the very media they're reading.

Unfortunately it's the oldies who still think that channels like the BBC are legitimate news sources and who take it all verbatim are the ones who actually get off their arses and vote. I know voting is compulsory in Aus but not here, if anything they're making it even more difficult to vote, demanding certain types of ID at polling stations when previously all you needed was your polling card.

If I hear this "will of the people" shit re Brexit again, considering that out of a voting population of 46 million or so, only 17m voted for it (16 million against and the rest didn't bother voting at all (a few in this very forum if I remember correctly who spent all day crowing and laughing the day after the result came in)

There was a Brexit  amendment vote in parliament the other week (ensuring that if no deal was agreed upon we would at least stay part of the customs union in the interim) that had it passed would likely have resulted in a vote of no confidence against May by her far right MPs, parliament collapsing and a new general election being held. The votes of 4 LABOUR MPs (rabid Brexit dogs) who defied ther own whip and voted against it, resulted in the govt winning and the Brexit no deal cliff becoming even more of a certainty. Also seeing as this Tory govt is widely considered to be the most inept in generations, the fact that Labour can't even take a lead over them in the polls is a damning indictment (that's the Corbyn smear machine, his general ineptness and overall rabble that's the Labour party in action).

So things here are changing, but not for the better.

 

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16 hours ago, Kim said:

Oh we're living in an age where people do not want to admit they were wrong about anything. It's either "we dont care, that's what we voted for" "experts know nothing" "fake news" or a shrug of the shoulders because they're not affected (yet). The propogandist press of Murdoch and Rothermere who run the big newspapers brand anyone not pro Brexit as traitors and saboteurs, the BBC (which was filled with right wing executives by David Cameron a few years ago) is basically a state propaganda tool. There's very little free press left. Just today right wing thug Tommy Robinson who's the posterchild for fascist racist shitheads was released from prison on bail and the celebrations and jubilations over twitter and facebook are sickening.. 

This isn't happening in Scotland of course (just yesterday there was a mass protest in Glasgow over the forcible eviction of 300 asylum seekers by the Home Office, our front pages of the Scottish editions of those same newspapers above are never about migration or refugees because it's not something we care about etc), and I'm not saying that every English person fits that description either, but it's very much the narrative that I'm seeing and hearing from friends down south, the media and hundreds of (intelligent) people on twitter.

Oh and I just read your post above about moving to London. If you're happy to be somewhere where your Visa could be revoked at anytime for no reason at all other than you sound slightly foreign or you originate from the evil EU, then I'd reconsider. It's a very real problem with even people who've worked, paid their taxes, have British children, been here 20 years or more being told they have no legal right to stay here and being booted out the country. I'm not trying to scare monger, but if you have other European options, then please take them.

Well, I am trying Scotland too. And Wales! I even sent a CV to Perth :lol: 

To be fair, I guess i'm wasting my time, as my experience is very valid but no precisely to find a job abroad. I think I have to get used to the fact that I'm stuck in my city and my own country. My profile and age is absolutely uninteresting for international markets. 

Regarding elites having media, it is called DESPERATION. Never in human history have been such a big amount of news being published, we are overflowed with information but it is getting more and more difficcult to control it. People under 25 years old NEVER open a newspaper and barely go to some big media outlets. They share news, get influenced by Twitter or find information through Google. That makes SEO incredibly important but what for? How do you control what people want to search? That, coupled with the amount of fake news and lies intentionally spread through social media make elites and traditional press DESPERATE to control whatever they are still able to control. That means that newspaper, radiostations and televisions are embarassing themselves each day, mantaining an agenda that is uninteresting for most of citizens or that is not portraying the real issue. I mean, I was precisely listening to the BBC last week and they spent 20 minutes in a report on how the rising of card payment in nordic countries is affecting the coins given to beggars. I mean, can you be MORE ELITIST? I was appalled :lol:  20 munutes! Meanwhile, real problems are swept under the carpet everywhere. 

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1 hour ago, karbatal said:

Well, I am trying Scotland too. And Wales! I even sent a CV to Perth :lol: 

To be fair, I guess i'm wasting my time, as my experience is very valid but no precisely to find a job abroad. I think I have to get used to the fact that I'm stuck in my city and my own country. My profile and age is absolutely uninteresting for international markets. 

Regarding elites having media, it is called DESPERATION. Never in human history have been such a big amount of news being published, we are overflowed with information but it is getting more and more difficcult to control it. People under 25 years old NEVER open a newspaper and barely go to some big media outlets. They share news, get influenced by Twitter or find information through Google. That makes SEO incredibly important but what for? How do you control what people want to search? That, coupled with the amount of fake news and lies intentionally spread through social media make elites and traditional press DESPERATE to control whatever they are still able to control. That means that newspaper, radiostations and televisions are embarassing themselves each day, mantaining an agenda that is uninteresting for most of citizens or that is not portraying the real issue. I mean, I was precisely listening to the BBC last week and they spent 20 minutes in a report on how the rising of card payment in nordic countries is affecting the coins given to beggars. I mean, can you be MORE ELITIST? I was appalled :lol:  20 munutes! Meanwhile, real problems are swept under the carpet everywhere. 

Well without independence, Scotland is still tied to those same immigration policies. We need and in fact encourage migration, yet can do nothing about it. The well publicised "hostile environment" isn't here though (which was meant to discourage illegal immigration but has ended up hitting perfectly legal and in some cases 100% British citizens)

As far as mainstream media goes, I just wish there was an outlet that wasn't so damn biased towards one thing or another. Surely the job is to simply inform, then find out the truth about a particular subject. There's this quote I read recently about journalism: "if one person tells you it's dry outside and another person says it's raining, it's not your job to report both, it's your job to look our the window and see which it is" This hardly evey happens these days. It's all panel discussions with people shouting at each other and the viewer knowing shit unless they look into it themselves, and then they're met with a brrage of online stuff that may or may not be true, "fake news" etc.

Last week on BBC Newsnight, this (once good) presenter was interviewing a guy about the fact that the electoral commision found that the Brexit leave campaign had broken the law by overspending and posting facebook ads. The guy was quite rightly explaining the fact and she, numerous times, interjected with "ALLEGEDLY that's what happened" No bitch, they broke the law and were fined. The guy handled it brilliantly. That's just one example of many. I actually find Aljazeera UK's news channel a much better source or news than any of the other offerings.

 

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@Kim @karbatal   There is possibly nothing more that infuriates me than the complete misrepresentation of the word " elites"  which you both have also pointed out.   Hearing multi millionaires who have no interest whatsoever in the working class,  middle class or poorer classes brainwashing people that they are " anti elites"  just astounds me.  The fact that people actually listen to them and buy that bulldust is even worse.  Murdoch and Trump for example crawl to the real elites who could not give a rat's continental about anyone bar themselves.  They are the elites themselves.  Similar with now how people that are simply wanting fair wages, universal health care, penalty rates and more taxes for big business are labelled "  the loony left or latte drinking lefties'   It is outrageous.   Meanwhile the politicians who are conservative are telling the public that there really is a trickle down effect when they slash taxes for corporations, big businesses and banks when it has been proven time and time again, that the savings go to shareholders and CEOs.  I don't understand how people are now so naive to believe that rot but they do. 

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4 hours ago, Jazzy Jan said:

@Kim @karbatal   There is possibly nothing more that infuriates me than the complete misrepresentation of the word " elites"  which you both have also pointed out.   Hearing multi millionaires who have no interest whatsoever in the working class,  middle class or poorer classes brainwashing people that they are " anti elites"  just astounds me.  The fact that people actually listen to them and buy that bulldust is even worse.  Murdoch and Trump for example crawl to the real elites who could not give a rat's continental about anyone bar themselves.  They are the elites themselves.  Similar with now how people that are simply wanting fair wages, universal health care, penalty rates and more taxes for big business are labelled "  the loony left or latte drinking lefties'   It is outrageous.   Meanwhile the politicians who are conservative are telling the public that there really is a trickle down effect when they slash taxes for corporations, big businesses and banks when it has been proven time and time again, that the savings go to shareholders and CEOs.  I don't understand how people are now so naive to believe that rot but they do. 

Well, it happens in times with extremist ideas. Look at Europe in the 30s, when the Nazis labelled themselves "socialist" and claimed to be towards the workers. While in fact they just wanted to get richer and richer stepping on weaker population. In Spain we've been like this for 5 years with all this Catalonian mess and corruption junk. Now the conservatives, who are the most corrupted group, is blaming migrants for our problems!  Any visceral idea that gives a blind vote is used. It can be immigration now, because it is the easy target, but it can go towards any minority. ANYONE OF US can be the next. It may be gays, or people from certain religions, or nationality, or ethnic background... Women too. It is a dangerous time that is leading to some "uncharted" (if we don't count those horrible 30s) territory. 

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10 hours ago, Jazzy Jan said:

@Kim @karbatal   There is possibly nothing more that infuriates me than the complete misrepresentation of the word " elites"  which you both have also pointed out.   Hearing multi millionaires who have no interest whatsoever in the working class,  middle class or poorer classes brainwashing people that they are " anti elites"  just astounds me.  The fact that people actually listen to them and buy that bulldust is even worse.  Murdoch and Trump for example crawl to the real elites who could not give a rat's continental about anyone bar themselves.  They are the elites themselves.  Similar with now how people that are simply wanting fair wages, universal health care, penalty rates and more taxes for big business are labelled "  the loony left or latte drinking lefties'   It is outrageous.   Meanwhile the politicians who are conservative are telling the public that there really is a trickle down effect when they slash taxes for corporations, big businesses and banks when it has been proven time and time again, that the savings go to shareholders and CEOs.  I don't understand how people are now so naive to believe that rot but they do. 

I think politics is so polarized these days that some people willingly just look the other way no matter what is staring them right in the face. They're either right or left and they'll go along with the prevailing consensus in their tribe no matter what. Brexit for example is now obviously an act of national self harm, just about everyone knows it, but no one will stop it.

May TRIED to lessen the blow somewhat with her chequers deal but days later she had resignations, calls for her head on a plate and the rebels in her party basically threatening  to bring her down. She, true to form, capitulated and changed the deal to make it impossible for the EU to accept.  Had she a shred of backbone she would have put the country first, but that's not the Tory way. 

No one's going to tackle the true elites. They're global, they're too powerful and they have their fingers in every pie.

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11 hours ago, karbatal said:

Well, it happens in times with extremist ideas. Look at Europe in the 30s, when the Nazis labelled themselves "socialist" and claimed to be towards the workers. While in fact they just wanted to get richer and richer stepping on weaker population. In Spain we've been like this for 5 years with all this Catalonian mess and corruption junk. Now the conservatives, who are the most corrupted group, is blaming migrants for our problems!  Any visceral idea that gives a blind vote is used. It can be immigration now, because it is the easy target, but it can go towards any minority. ANYONE OF US can be the next. It may be gays, or people from certain religions, or nationality, or ethnic background... Women too. It is a dangerous time that is leading to some "uncharted" (if we don't count those horrible 30s) territory. 

True and many people are not learning from history or even taking note of the parallels.  Frightening stuff. 

5 hours ago, Kim said:

I think politics is so polarized these days that some people willingly just look the other way no matter what is staring them right in the face. They're either right or left and they'll go along with the prevailing consensus in their tribe no matter what. Brexit for example is now obviously an act of national self harm, just about everyone knows it, but no one will stop it.

May TRIED to lessen the blow somewhat with her chequers deal but days later she had resignations, calls for her head on a plate and the rebels in her party basically threatening  to bring her down. She, true to form, capitulated and changed the deal to make it impossible for the EU to accept.  Had she a shred of backbone she would have put the country first, but that's not the Tory way. 

No one's going to tackle the true elites. They're global, they're too powerful and they have their fingers in every pie.

Yes.  People are just turning away and not even attempting to learn about things that will seriously change their lives.   I was shocked at just how many here have meekly accepted the loss of penalty rates for people in the hospitality and retail industries and even using the excuse of " it won't happen to us"  ie emergency services etc.  Apart from the complete unethical standard of not caring for others losing their rights,  it also erodes things for all and sets up precedents.  Workers throwing away hard earned rights that have been fought for over years without a fight or protest is sickening.   

This new thing too of just agreeing with actions because people are more left or right is also burying their heads in the sand.  Sadly, that is happening now because there seems to be a disconnect with people even wanting to look at political issues.  It is put in the "too hard basket"  I am left wing but don't like or accept violent murderers and vicious rapists getting early bail or light sentences.  As does everyone I know - left or right.  Yet,  the stuff printed in the right wing papers, suggest everyone that is deemed " left of centre"  is easy on criminals and don't care about victims of crime.  It drives me insane ! .  It then seeps into supposed ideology.  Ditto with people that are right wing but not extreme right wing.  A lot just like economic stability but now are being courted by extreme right wing policies about selling off all government essential services and privatising them all.   Something that they are also against and are now feeling with electricity prices going through the roof.  Sorry to bring up local issues in the Brexit thread but the ideology is the same . 

I presume that is what is happening with Brexit.  From what I have seen on reports here,  there are many that regretted their vote as well as many that are still firmly for Brexit.  The ones that are now getting scared of the mess it is in but not wanting to appear weak for changing their views should not hide away. .  In reality,  people admitting they have changed their views is strong and sensible.  The people that are firmly for Brexit are not quietening down so all should give their true views.   Why I also think that blaming and shaming Trump voters who now admit they were wrong is not the answer.  Far better to discuss why they voted for him in the first place and let them speak out if they deeply regret voting for him.  

The fighting over " Hard Brexit"  or " Soft Brexit"  is still going on and there seems no way of compromise.  

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Teresa May should not dance in public. :wacko: she is unintentionally hilarious here. Moves like the Dementor she is - no rhythm or musicality whatsoever.  

 

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European council president Donald Tusk has destabilised Theresa May's Brexit plan after saying on Thursday it "will not work". Mr Tusk's damning statement in Salzburg comes as European leaders have ramped up the pressure on the Prime Minister, despite her insistence her Chequers deal is the only route to an agreement. May's plan involves keeping parts of the single market after Britain leaves the European Union but she has been told it cannot be cherry-picked.

Mr Tusk said of the so-called Chequers proposals: "the suggested framework for economic cooperation will not work, not least because it risks undermining the single market." He also set an alarming deadline for the Prime Minister saying, "The moment of truth for Brexit negotiations will be the October European Council. In October, we expect maximum progress and results in the Brexit talks."

 

 

 

 

 

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What really baffles me is the absolute lack of knowledge on the EU and even of history of the EU from British ministers and even people.

You can't separate the four freedoms established in the Maastricht treaty in 1993: freedom of goods, services, capital and PEOPLE. You can't choose one and get the other three! 

Even counties from the European Economic Area (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) have to accept those four freedoms if they want to be part of any of them. Plus, they support economically the EU if they're part of certain areas, such as the Research Area or benefit of the expertise and quality control of experts from the agencies...

So they will never get a deal that goes against the Single Market. 

That's when history is important too. The idea of the EU was born in 1950 with the aim of peace. One way to reach peace was to share the production of coal and steel. And in 1957 other goals were already established: to join forces to create a common economic and social space. It took almost 40 years to fulfill that goal and now this FUCKING COW thinks she can have what she wants???? You can't jeopardise the market only because you don't like immigrants and you feel superior to the rest.

I'm sick and tired of politicians fucking up years of efforts pursuing impossible and ILLEGAL dreams. It's happening the same here with Catalonia, where politicians and some people thought the EU would support them when the very idea of the EU is to unite, to pool sovereignty, to work together... And they wanted to cherry pick what was best for them too. Once again, you can't jeopardise Schuman's ideal of the unity of the countries because you feel superior to the rest! One way of solving the remaining tensions in exYougoslavia is through the EU integration and now you come with your absurdities! 

UGH!

 

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Brexiteers are threefold imo. Businessmen and politicians who see a personal economic windfall in a 'no deal' or 'hard Brexit'; hedge funders like Jacob Reese Mogg, business owners like Tim Martin going on about "the will of the people" while really having their eye on the money they can make from UK trading outwith the EU. Then those dispossessed in the many shithole ex-industrial towns who were left to rot as a legacy of Thatcher's economic policies, wanting to send a message to the 'elite', looking on while London builds a hundred empty skyscrapers (most with dirty Russian money) to make its skyline look better (and in the process looking just like every other anonymous city) Self sabotage undoubtedly, but when you have nothing anyway you don't really care. Then your good old British nationalists; lager guzzling, Sun reading, Union Jack waving racists who don't like all 'em dirty foreigners comin over 'ere and takin' our jobs.

So you have the most inept and embarrassingly awful government in generations, bereft of statesmenship or leadership, a lame duck prime minister who's only still in place because no one else wants the poisoned chalice of Brexit with a whole gang of saboteurs in her own party just waiting to pounce and oust her when the time is right, a leader of the opposition with zero debating skills who himself is a rabid Brexiteer but can't admit it without losing the backing of half his supporters and whose own party is trying to oust him by creating faux scandals about anti semitism and an upcoming marxist apocalypse should he become PM, and opinion polls that give "don't know" as the largest % when asked which of the two would make the best prime minister or the best government.

The real sickening aspect has been the media. Full of lies, obfuscation and xenophobia. You have to pick up an Irish newspaper or watch Al Jazeera UK to see impartial facts about Brexit, while UK media (most of it Tory and/or foreign owned by those who want to sow division and reap the benefits) are obsessed with giving every nutter with an opinion a mouthpiece while reporting slavishly on diversionary crap like fake Russian "terrorists" and Donald fucking Trump.

So where do we go from here? Probably some sort of Canada Plus deal giving us a trade deal but no power over anything, a stagnating economy, a rise in living costs and tax rises (not for the rich who'll have a brand new low-wage tax haven right on their doorstep) -  and hopefully the breakup of the UK with Scotland and N. Ireland going their own way and leaving England and Wales to enjoy what they voted for. Hurrah!

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5 hours ago, Kim said:

Brexiteers are three fold imo. Businessmen and politicians who see a personal economic windfall in a 'no deal' or 'hard Brexit'; hedge funders like Jacob Reese Mogg, business owners like Tim Martin going on about "the will of the people" while really having their eye on the money they can make from UK trading outwith the EU. Then those dispossessed in the many shithole ex-industrial towns who were left to rot as a legacy of Thatcher's economic policies, wanting to send a message to the 'elite', looking on while London builds a hundred empty skyscrapers (most with dirty Russian money) to make its skyline look better (and in the process looking just like every other anonymous city) Self sabotage undoubtedly, but when you have nothing anyway you don't really care. Then your good old British nationalists; lager guzzling, Sun reading, Union Jack waving racists who don't like all 'em dirty foreigners comin over 'ere and takin' our jobs.

So you have the most inept and embarrassingly awful government in generations, bereft of statesmenship or leadership, a lame duck prime minister who's only still in place because no one else wants the poisoned chalice of Brexit with a whole gang of saboteurs in her own party just waiting to pounce and oust her when the time is right, a leader of the opposition with zero debating skills who himself is a rabid Brexiteer but can't admit it without losing the backing of half his supporters and whose own party is trying to oust him by creating faux scandals about anti semitism and an upcoming marxist apocalypse should he become PM, and opinion polls that give "don't know" as the largest % when asked which of the two would make the best prime minister or the best government.

The real sickening aspect has been the media. Full of lies, obfuscation and xenophobia. You have to pick up an Irish newspaper or watch Al Jazeera UK to see impartial facts about Brexit, while UK media (most of it Tory and/or foreign owned by those who want to sow division and reap the benefits) are obsessed with giving every nutter with an opinion a mouthpiece while reporting slavishly on diversionary crap like fake Russian "terrorists" and Donald fucking Trump.

So where do we go from here? Probably some sort of Canada Plus deal giving us a trade deal but no power over anything, a stagnating economy, a rise in living costs and tax rises (not for the rich who'll have a brand new low-wage tax haven right on their doorstep) -  and hopefully the breakup of the UK with Scotland and N. Ireland going their own way and leaving England and Wales to enjoy what they voted for. Hurrah!

Well it really makes you wonder why on Earth the most inept politicians in generations have met at the very same time in so many international countries. From the UK to Spain, France, United States, Hungary... I would add Merkel to the list. Coincidence????? What happened? Is it simply that the world has turned so complicated that nobody knows how to really work it out? 

I'm studying a lot about the EU these days and admiring so much those early leaders, like Robert Schuman or Jean Monnet, who said that for big international problems and dangers we need big and international solutions,  who envisioned the Union as a common space for peace and prosperity. With commodities shared to avoid war industries to rise again, but also to reduce costs and pour the benefits into the destroyed heart of Europe. Sadly, the dream turned into a corporated nightmare full of lobbies and neocon cunts. We citizens have allowed it too, by supporting Governments who oppose to important improvement such as the failed European Constitution. Under this Constitution we would enjoy stronger Fundamental Rights, for example.

60 years later most of us have forgotten. I'm opposed to globalisation but I'm all for community. Instead of working to create a social and prosperous EU as a community, they decide to go solo and face global terrorism, free trade areas, mutual recognition agreements... Well, good luck! 

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21 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Well it really makes you wonder why on Earth the most inept politicians in generations have met at the very same time in so many international countries. From the UK to Spain, France, United States, Hungary... I would add Merkel to the list. Coincidence????? What happened? Is it simply that the world has turned so complicated that nobody knows how to really work it out? 

Too many chancers now in politics (and most other walks of public life) People who bluff their way through, knowing a little bit about everything and a lot about nothing. Here's a good article that sums it up..

The bluffocracy: how Britain ended up being run by eloquent chancers
Britain has become hooked on a culture of inexpertise

Any time we see a politician fail, or an idiotic policy collapse as it passes through parliament — which these days seems like a regular occurrence — we are left with a familiar feeling. That this screw-up is the result of a chancer at work. Someone who has, at the very best, a shallow understanding of the country they’re trying to govern. Someone who knew how to come up with a headline-grabbing idea, and how to make it sound convincing and radical — but didn’t ever have the faintest idea how to implement it.

What we see perhaps less often is that the UK has — for a variety of cultural, social, and economic reasons — set up our public life so that the chancers are best suited to the system, and are most likely to rise to the top.

This is what you might call the British bluffocracy. We have become a nation run by people whose knowledge extends a mile wide but an inch deep; who know how to grasp the generalities of any topic in minutes, and how never to bother themselves with the specifics. Who place their confidence in their ability to talk themselves out of trouble, rather than learning how to run things carefully. And who were trained in this dubious art as teenagers: often together on the same university course.

This malaise is not confined to politics, but is present in a terrifyingly wide range of our institutions. The way we educate the people who will enter public life, the way our career structures work, and the institutions themselves that we have built — from parliament to the civil service to the political press gallery — all favour the bluffers. David Cameron was teased as the ‘essay-crisis’ prime minister, a governing style that worked for him until he failed his Brexit essay. But other consequences are deeper still: the short-termism of our institutions is, in no small part, due to bluffing. As the Brexit preparations (or lack thereof) are beginning to demonstrate.

The typical British bluffer is male, well-polished and the product of public school. It’s invariably a chap. Women make up two in five senior civil servants and one in three MPs. People of black and minority ethnic origin make up 15 per cent of the country but just 8 per cent of MPs, 7 per cent of senior civil servants, and 6 per cent of national journalists.

Being governed by a bluffocracy creates a skills gap that political bluffers like to bemoan: one recent study suggests just 9 per cent of candidates at last year’s election had degrees in science or technology. This is true of only one of Labour’s 258 MPs: Chi Onwurah, an engineer. The British system of government often sees ministers with no expertise being put in charge of — for example — the National Health Service, one of the largest organisations on the planet.

As a result, top politicians of both parties end up spinning arguments they often barely understand and certainly don’t mean. The supposed watchdogs — political journalists — are often just as bad. And the crisis of trust in mainstream politics and journalism alike does raise the question of whether the bluffers are being found out.

The blaggers meanwhile, are becoming more brazen. Look, for example, at George Osborne, who became editor of a major newspaper with only a few weeks of journalism work experience to his name. His secret? Being utterly unfazed: by that, or the other five jobs he took on. Then take Brexit, the biggest overhaul in British government for a generation or more. And advocated with utter confidence by bluffers who, it quickly turned out, had no idea what they were talking about.

Most bluffers are made, not born — and the archetypical bluffer’s degree is, of course, Philosophy, Politics and Economics. It’s taught at a number of universities across the UK, but is most strongly associated with Oxford. Students are marinated in an adversarial university tutorial system which favours the quick thinker over the deep rival. A standard setup for a politics tutorial, for example, is to have one student read their essay while the other is encouraged to attack it. If they don’t, their own work will come under far closer scrutiny.

This is how the school for bluffers works. Those who prosper are not those who possess the deepest knowledge, but who can deliver a clever quip or a leftfield surprise argument. The ‘essay crisis’ skill trains people to cram what’s supposed to be 20-odd careful hours of reading, research and writing into five hours, and to disguise their shoddiness by delivering a counter-intuitive argument so bold that it disguises the fact that they have not done the work. It’s a skill for life. 

Or at least for government.

To look the alumni is to understand how Britain is run by the bluffing skill that it teaches. Jeremy Hunt, the Foreign Secretary, Matt Hancock, his successor as Health Secretary, Damian Hinds, the Education Secretary, Philip Hammond, the Chancellor, and Liz Truss, his deputy. Then add Nick Robinson, Ed Miliband, Robert Peston and Toby Young of this parish to our earlier list. Olly Robbins, the civil servant in charge of Brexit. The list goes on, and reads like Who’s Who. Well, you might say, it was ever thus. The British system has always sent MPs with no direct experience to run departments, but their job is to give political direction while the expertise is applied by bureaucratic experts. But the civil service, too, has fallen to the bluffocracy.

Government ministers are notoriously itinerant — Sajid Javid, for example, has held seven jobs in six years. But for a successful civil servant, too, it’s crucial to stay on the move. Nowhere is that clearer than in the Department for Exiting the EU, where the National Audit Office found out that almost one in ten staff move on within three months — a churn rate around four times the civil service average. Never mind being caught when the music stops. When it comes to Brexit, many of the civil servants will be far from the scene before it even starts.

Brexit is not the only area in which this is happening. Jane Furniss, a former senior civil servant in the Home Office, says the Windrush debacle was also a consequence of the short-termism which afflicts government. ‘The architects of the “hostile environment” policy are probably no longer in that area of work at all, and even if they were warned of consequences, they will have been focused on delivering the policy — they won’t be there when it comes home.’

Nick Hardwick, who stepped down as chair of the parole board amid the row over the decision to grant parole to the convicted rapist John Worboys, once put it well. The civil servants who get on, he said, ‘are those that can write a good minute which gets a minister out of trouble’ rather than ‘those who can run things so they don’t get into trouble in the first place’.

He could have gone further. A first-class bluffer knows how and when to speak in meetings, due to having learnt this skill at private school or Oxbridge. For example: if you don’t know much in a meeting, speak early, while the relatively obvious points are still available to be made. By contrast, if you’ve got a killer detail or argument you think others lack — especially if it could prove decisive — wait until the end, so it sticks with people. This and dozens of other tricks — speaking in the intakes of breath that others leave, knowing when to drop a rhetorical question, knowing just how much research to do — are used to get attention.

The final pillar of the bluffocracy is the media, which is supposed to hold the other two institutions to account. Some of the UK’s most talented journalists work in parliament, but they are — by design — generalists, being asked to report about defence issues one day, and train takeovers the next. This system serves to insulate ministers from questions by subject-matter experts. Whatever the scandal in the headlines — nuclear waste, universal credit, implementation of Brexit — there is likely to be in most major newsrooms an expert on the topic. Someone who has spoken to people at the front line of the policy, whether that means people who are affected by it or who are trying to implement it on the ground. At best, thanks to the lobby system, they will be able to try to urge a colleague in the parliamentary press gallery to lob in a question or two. Rarely do specialists get an interview themselves.

So lobby journalists — who are physically and culturally removed from their colleagues — inevitably become more drawn into the game of politics than the realities of its consequences. This is a system which encourages politics as a game by its very design.

And it’s a system that the public is beginning to tire of. A YouGov survey into mistrust of government found that only 13 per cent of voters would rule out a politician who had taken Class A drugs and only 14 per cent would rule out a married heterosexual MP who later admitted he was gay. But 55 per cent would draw the line at a politician who had ‘never had a “real” job outside of politics, think tanks or journalism’. In other words, the public are pretty sick of bluffers in public life.

Can things change? Not in Westminster anytime soon. It’s hard to look at modern frontbenchers and see much hope there in the short-run. As for Whitehall: it is 160 years since the civil service had a genuinely comprehensive look at itself, and an examination is overdue. But if history is any guide, a decent-sized war is probably the only reliable way of getting this done.

We will always need generalists to master new situations quickly, to group specialists together and to help communicate what they find. But the balance of power has moved too far in the bluffers’ favour — at a time when the country is crying out for some proper expertise. It’s time to reshape our institutions to let the experts in, to reward serious knowledge. We need a system that works, and experts who are willing to join it. Any volunteers?

-James Ball

 

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Meanwhile this fucking malfunctioning bot gives a ridiculous speech that every political commentator on twitter calls out for how out of touch it is,  yet the BBC's talking about how "jolly mad" Mrs May is and how strong she's being :rolleyes:

While Corbyn does his usual sitting on the fence shit of disagreeing while knowing he has offered fuck all alternative...

And the only voice of reason (as usual) is...

 

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