IsaacHarris

Beyoncé Thread

643 posts in this topic

9 minutes ago, Pedro said:

Social Justice Warriors, they jump at every chance to discuss an issue but they don't necessarily have the conviction behind it. They just talk and criticize by the sake of it. 

aah, thank you very much. Now I understand the issue better.

BTW,

Solange makes a jerk of herself with alternative facts.

And yes it maybe true that Adeles album has sold more than lemon etc.

My only issue is with some users comments which has no constructive critism, but more a personal attack at Beyonce.

 

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5 hours ago, Kim said:

Yeah there was no internet before WI FI. I'm guessing you were still in nappies while we were listening to the 10 sec clips of Frozen online.

Beyonce is shit and always will be shit for no other reason than her music is tuneless bilge and she represents the absolute worst of modern celebrity. Trashy, classless and thick as two short planks.

She doesn't deserve to be spoken of in the same breath as Tina, Diana, Whitney or Queen Rihanna...seeing as y'all are so obsessed with skin colour.

Transparent. 

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Don't start your shite with me Diversity. Anyone who knows my politics and social consciousness on here knows what kind of person I am.

Most of all, I'm someone who likes great pop music.

Now you dumb bumble bees need to shut the fuck up  and don't try and school MADONNA FANS on the ins and outs of the SHAMMYS. We all know too well. And the fact is this overrated, corporate, manufactured, clueless, tuneless wonder has TOO MANY Grammys as it is without getting any more. Go away and buy /write some good songs, learn to sing them properly, and get back to us.

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Isaac is right. It's impossible to educate the ignorant when they don't want to be educated. When they don't want to see things from any other perspective. This Lemonade Grammy thing is just another representation of racism. And I guess you guys just don't think racism is a big deal.

Also, cultural appropriation is a problem and always has been. It's just with social media now that people can be vocal about it. You guys should know that Indians were pissed with Madonna at the beginning of the Ray of Light era. They felt it offensive that she dressed up as them. She's a white woman from the Midwest. What does she know about being South Asian? What does she know about their experience? What does she know about their struggles? This white woman is going to dress up as one when an actual South Asian woman can't enen get a job in America because of her skin colour. However Madonna is going to use that as an accessory for a few months and then move on to using Japanese culture. I personally felt like she was bringing South Asian culture to the mainstream and giving it a voice but why does a white woman have to do that?

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6 minutes ago, Kim said:

Don't start your shite with me Diversity. Anyone who knows my politics and social consciousness on here knows what kind of person I am.

Most of all, I'm someone who likes great pop music.

Now you dumb bumble bees need to shut the fuck up  and don't try and school MADONNA FANS on the ins and outs of the SHAMMYS. We all know too well. And the fact is this overrated, corporate, manufactured, clueless, tuneless wonder has TOO MANY Grammys as it is without getting any more. Go away and buy /write some good songs, learn to sing them properly, and get back to us.

Typical response

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@mnino  very well said.  Poor, poor Beyonce.  This is a music award, not a diva award.  It's about (or should be) songwriting, musicality and substance.  Lemonade was lacking the lemon "juice".  There was plenty of sugar....but needed more bite!!  

As far as the race issue, it's just ridiculous.  Again, "don't go to award shows looking for justice".  

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7 hours ago, jojuun said:

That's not the point. "Who has the better album" is subjective either way. The point is, the Recording Academy always gives the AOTY award to the "bigger" album in recent years EXCEPT when it comes to Beyoncé or any black artist for that matter.

They gave it to BECK when he was up against Beyonce two years ago (fucking BECK!!!! who sold like 2 copies of his album before it won the award, metaphorically speaking). Everyone and their mother also expected Beyonce to win that year because she undoubtedly had the bigger album. But they didn't. Because "Beck made the album all by himself in a cabin". Okay, so then you don't go with the bigger commercial success and with the "quality content"? Ok, cool. Let's continue that line of thinking... Oh no shit, fuck that a year later, let's give it to fucking Taylor "I'm just gonna shake shake shake" Swift. People then defended that win by saying "it was commercially a bigger record than the other nominees". Like, what?! You can't use that argument whenever you want and then flip it around the year after that. Taylor Swift won that award for an album that contained shitty ass lyrics and had ZERO impact except "I'm a poor victim looking for love" for teenage girls refreshing her videos on YouTube. It was up against two critically acclaimed albums by black artists that year (Kendrick's To Pimp A Butterfly and The Weeknd's Beauty Behind The Madness).

You can't pick the bigger commercial successes every time a white artist is nominated against a more renowned album by a black artist and then flip the roles the year after that when a black artist is expected to win because it has more success.

It's never "just about the music". If it was, how come Taylor fucking Swift has 2 Album of the Year awards at age 27? She is NOT deserving of that many top accolades. That's not music. That's politics and policy. HIDDEN policy.

Beyonce deserved that award this year. If she didn't because they wanted to go with the album with more global sales, then she should've gotten it in 2014 for her self-titled album because that WAS the bigger commercial success that year. 

Even Adele said it at the press conference on Sunday... "What the FUCK does Beyonce have to do to win album of the year at this point, is what I'm wondering". If that's coming from the actual (CAUCASIAN) winner of the award, maybe it's time to wonder if so many people actually have a valid point.

Wrong.

 

1999 - Lauryn Hill's 8 million copies paled compared to Shania's 20 million. Lauryn still won. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

2000 - Santana, who is not white, sold close to 11.5 million copies and beat the Backstreet Boys who sold 13 million. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

2003 - Norah Jones, who is not white, sold the most and won against Eminem, the most relevant white artist at that time.

2004 - Outkast's almost 6 million copies were almost half of Justin Timberlake's 10 million. Outkast still won. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

2005 - Ray Charles sold 3.6 million copies compared to Green Day's over 6 million copies. Ray Charles won. Bigger seller by white artist lost not to mention that ALL other nominees were African American.

2008 - Herbie Hancock sold less than 300K compared to Amy Winehouse's 3 million copies. Herbie won. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

 

For the last 20 years 1998, 2006, 2009 and 2015 were the only times that a black artist had the biggest commercial success and did not win (Babyface, Mariah, Lil Wayne and Beyonce respectively). 

 

I don't think you have a strong argument there. 

 

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7 minutes ago, mnino said:

Wrong.

 

1999 - Lauryn Hill's 8 million copies paled compared to Shania's 20 million. Lauryn still won. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

2000 - Santana, who is not white, sold close to 11.5 million copies and beat the Backstreet Boys who sold 13 million. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

2003 - Norah Jones, who is not white, sold the most and won against Eminem, the most relevant white artist at that time.

2004 - Outkast's almost 6 million copies were almost half of Justin Timberlake's 10 million. Outkast still won. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

2005 - Ray Charles sold 3.6 million copies compared to Green Day's over 6 million copies. Ray Charles won. Bigger seller by white artist lost not to mention that ALL other nominees were African American.

2008 - Herbie Hancock sold less than 300K compared to Amy Winehouse's 3 million copies. Herbie won. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

 

For the last 20 years 1998, 2006, 2009 and 2015 were the only times that a black artist had the biggest commercial success and did not win (Babyface, Mariah, Lil Wayne and Beyonce respectively). 

 

I don't think you have a strong argument there. 

 

:queenbitch:

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You can give them the facts, but they will still cry "injustice".  And don't y'all dare attack @jazzyjan for she ALWAYS speaks from the heart and with knowledge. 

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7 minutes ago, mnino said:

Wrong.

 

1999 - Lauryn Hill's 8 million copies paled compared to Shania's 20 million. Lauryn still won. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

2000 - Santana, who is not white, sold close to 11.5 million copies and beat the Backstreet Boys who sold 13 million. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

2003 - Norah Jones, who is not white, sold the most and won against Eminem, the most relevant white artist at that time.

2004 - Outkast's almost 6 million copies were almost half of Justin Timberlake's 10 million. Outkast still won. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

2005 - Ray Charles sold 3.6 million copies compared to Green Day's over 6 million copies. Ray Charles won. Bigger seller by white artist lost not to mention that ALL other nominees were African American.

2008 - Herbie Hancock sold less than 300K compared to Amy Winehouse's 3 million copies. Herbie won. Biggest seller by white artist lost.

 

For the last 20 years 1998, 2006, 2009 and 2015 were the only times that a black artist had the biggest commercial success and did not win (Babyface, Mariah, Lil Wayne and Beyonce respectively). 

 

I don't think you have a strong argument there. 

 

Very good analysis !!! Amy didnt win was wrong. Noone knows or knew the guys who won.

Also Shania deserved it in my opinon too.

Still thanks for the stats

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3 hours ago, XXL said:

:chuckle:

I find it fascinating how some people here think a Beyonce has more songwriting, production chops or musicianship in general than say a Kylie Minogue. We all know that people like Adele, Beyonce etc have good voices but lack real artistry. Having a team of people giving you good songs or songs that are well marketed and supported does not necessarily equate having artistry.

Moreover the defensiveness that goes on whenever Beyonce is involved is staggering. When you look at all the other pop princesses threads it's like she's the only one that cannot be criticised, ever. I find that childish and nonsensical.

Look for racism where it really is in society. Not some stupid award show where some rich people lick each other asses, particularly nowadays in the generation of Gagaland where everything is fake and counterfeited, payola disguised as news included

There is a cult of Beyonce that is quite hilarious. Having a bit of a sense of humour about your second fav pop star wouldn't hurt for a change, luckily there are so many posters here who do display that

The messianic complex not backed by any substance whatsoever is not tired only when Gaga sports it, just saying

This TEA right here. 

The fact that any criticism is seen as 'something else', almost like blasphemy, is what is so off-putting, and highly suspect. I understand that from the fans point of view, considering every fanbase of a pop star is now a cult... but the fact that the actual media plays right into this is is what makes me highly skeptical that much more. I actually find it downright disturbing. I've never seen this kind of protection and praise before, while so many before her, who truly deserved fairer judgement, accolades and praise never got within an inch of it.

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40 minutes ago, Diversity83 said:

Isaac is right. It's impossible to educate the ignorant when they don't want to be educated. When they don't want to see things from any other perspective. This Lemonade Grammy thing is just another representation of racism. And I guess you guys just don't think racism is a big deal.

Also, cultural appropriation is a problem and always has been. It's just with social media now that people can be vocal about it. You guys should know that Indians were pissed with Madonna at the beginning of the Ray of Light era. They felt it offensive that she dressed up as them. She's a white woman from the Midwest. What does she know about being South Asian? What does she know about their experience? What does she know about their struggles? This white woman is going to dress up as one when an actual South Asian woman can't enen get a job in America because of her skin colour. However Madonna is going to use that as an accessory for a few months and then move on to using Japanese culture. I personally felt like she was bringing South Asian culture to the mainstream and giving it a voice but why does a white woman have to do that?

I can't talk about how Asian people felt about It. But I can totally tell you that whenever she made any reference to the Mexican culture people were ecstatic. It was even commented on the news. Madonna has made a carrier of taking a lot of cultural references from Japan, Spain, India, leather, s&m, gay, France, painters, poets culture... you name it. 

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26 minutes ago, Pedro said:

I can't talk about how Asian people felt about It. But I can totally tell you that whenever she made any reference to the Mexican culture people were ecstatic. It was even commented on the news. Madonna has made a carrier of taking a lot of cultural references from Japan, Spain, India, leather, s&m, gay, France, painters, poets culture... you name it. 

I don't have facts or sources to back this but I have a feeling that this whole cultural appropriation phenomena was birthed in white liberal academia in America. People around the world have more important things to contest or protest about. Mexicans don't care about people of other ethnicity wearing sombreros... it's what you do with it, it's how you portray a culture. Promoting a culture through your art is not equivalent to wearing a Halloween costume to make fun of a population's stereotype. 

You have SJWs on one end of the spectrum and then blatant bigotry and fear mongering on the other. Far left or far right are both sides of the same coin: wrong focus with a dash of crazy. 

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4 minutes ago, mnino said:

I don't have facts or sources to back this us but I have a feeling that this whole cultural appropriation phenomena was birthed in white liberal academia in America. People around the world have more important things to contest or protest about. Mexicans don't care about people of other ethnicity wearing sombreros... it's what you do with it, it's how you portray a culture. Promoting a culture through your art is not equivalent to wearing a Halloween costume to make fun a population's stereotype.

Agreed, I can tell you that about being Latin, Mexican and gay, it has never been an issue about other people "appropriating" my culture or contex. You are right that there are more important and pressing issues to protest in everyone's countries. 

As seen in the balcony of a Mexican middle class neighborhood: 

IMG_4528.JPG

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1 hour ago, Diversity83 said:

Isaac is right. It's impossible to educate the ignorant when they don't want to be educated. When they don't want to see things from any other perspective. This Lemonade Grammy thing is just another representation of racism. And I guess you guys just don't think racism is a big deal.

Also, cultural appropriation is a problem and always has been. It's just with social media now that people can be vocal about it. You guys should know that Indians were pissed with Madonna at the beginning of the Ray of Light era. They felt it offensive that she dressed up as them. She's a white woman from the Midwest. What does she know about being South Asian? What does she know about their experience? What does she know about their struggles? This white woman is going to dress up as one when an actual South Asian woman can't enen get a job in America because of her skin colour. However Madonna is going to use that as an accessory for a few months and then move on to using Japanese culture. I personally felt like she was bringing South Asian culture to the mainstream and giving it a voice but why does a white woman have to do that?

 

Educate the ignorant? Educate yourself first and then maybe you'll be able to educate the ones around you. You just sound like an annoying Moan of Arce. "A white woman can't do this..." Blah blah blah "Beyoncé not winning is racisms" BLAH BLAH BLAH! 

All this Cultural Appropriation is so stupid and counterproductive. Y'all sound like you are saving lives and shit but I tell you what you really do. YOU TIRE PEOPLE WITH THIS BULLSHIT. Now go waste your energy with something that's gonna make a real change in this world rather than stick to what is easy and irrelevant but comfortable.

The amount of crap one has to read these days is unbearable.

 

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2 hours ago, Django said:

 

Educate the ignorant? Educate yourself first and then maybe you'll be able to educate the ones around you. You just sound like an annoying Moan of Arce. "A white woman can't do this..." Blah blah blah "Beyoncé not winning is racisms" BLAH BLAH BLAH! 

All this Cultural Appropriation is so stupid and counterproductive. Y'all sound like you are saving lives and shit but I tell you what you really do. YOU TIRE PEOPLE WITH THIS BULLSHIT. Now go waste your energy with something that's gonna make a real change in this world rather than stick to what is easy and irrelevant but comfortable.

The amount of crap one has to read these days is unbearable.

 

:clap:   Everything has to do with race for Diversity. 

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But more importantly, 

4 hours ago, Diversity83 said:

Isaac is right.

 

I tend to be! And speaking of righteous, let's reminisce on one of Bey's biggest tracks:

 

 

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4 hours ago, Diversity83 said:

Isaac is right. It's impossible to educate the ignorant when they don't want to be educated. When they don't want to see things from any other perspective. This Lemonade Grammy thing is just another representation of racism. And I guess you guys just don't think racism is a big deal.

Also, cultural appropriation is a problem and always has been. It's just with social media now that people can be vocal about it. You guys should know that Indians were pissed with Madonna at the beginning of the Ray of Light era. They felt it offensive that she dressed up as them. She's a white woman from the Midwest. What does she know about being South Asian? What does she know about their experience? What does she know about their struggles? This white woman is going to dress up as one when an actual South Asian woman can't enen get a job in America because of her skin colour. However Madonna is going to use that as an accessory for a few months and then move on to using Japanese culture. I personally felt like she was bringing South Asian culture to the mainstream and giving it a voice but why does a white woman have to do that?

So if somebody thinks that Adele's album is better than Beyonce's, then they are racists? Because in this case more members of the academy thought that way. That's what it all boils down to. 

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1 hour ago, IsaacHarris said:

But more importantly, 

 

I tend to be! And speaking of righteous, let's reminisce on one of Bey's biggest tracks:

 

 

Yes, thank you for this!

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I should go focus on something more important. That's another one that can be added to white priveledge's greatest hits. And I never said I had a problem with what Madonna did. However the fact remains: why does a white person get to celebrate a culture where the actual people of that culture are silenced and opresssd, beaten and killed. Sounds pretty serious to me. 

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So celebrating another culture is bad?

:blink:

----------------------

Is it POSSIBLE that on a musicianship level people find Beyonce's material mostly bland and uninspired and put together by a team of industry people as it's happened for 99% of mainstream pop stars since the late 90s?

Whitney Houston was the first concert I ever saw in 1999, the year before I had bought the Miseducation of Lauryn Hill and listened to it every single day for 18 months, I've always loved Diana, Donna and countless others, suddenly saying Beyonce is hugely propped up and overhyped the same way Adele, Joanne, Ed Sheeran, Taylor Swift and many others are, makes you ignorant or worse racist?

And what about her significance in the political discourse? Do these people making those claims realise that Beyonce sounds like Britney Spears talking about George Bush?

Maybe before saying to others they need to be educated you need to start being a little bit more tolerant and respectful of the fact that not everyone has to like what you like

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1 hour ago, Diversity83 said:

However the fact remains: why does a white person get to celebrate a culture where the actual people of that culture are silenced and opresssd, beaten and killed. Sounds pretty serious to me. 

Adele didn't have the right to enjoy Lemonade?  

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The more they try, the most idiotic comments come out.

 

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In 2017 to continue argue about 'cultural appropriation' screams more about that person's need to use his/her passport. Or perhaps getting one?

Madonna has long ago become a true universal icon. When you think of her you don't label her as an 'american'.  Easy to see why her albums continue to be amongst the best sellers worldwide. When 'La Isla Bonita' came out I was a kid and every older friend/sibling was ecstatic in Latin America.

I have friends from every race (I hate using that word and sentence...) but really... why african americans always have to be the most vocal about it? I understand the tragedy and injustice of their history... most of my students at some point were african americans.  

When it comes to pop culture to state as 'racism' not to give a trophy to someone who is otherwise revered by most mainstream media and many people in USA as the second coming of Christ basically, really...

And truth is her music was nowhere near the popularity than the one that the white chick delivered worldwide. 

Nowadays Kanye is considered a genius, Jay Z is beyond successful and Beyonce can fart and will be perceived as 'art'.

They all wear european brands, steal beats from foreign producers, she constantly steals choreography from foreign visionaires... is that cultural appropriation?

Racism?! Yeah, keep telling yourself that while they fatten their bank account.

If racism is your issue go and work at public schools or community outreach programs in NYC or Chicago.

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6 hours ago, VogueMusic said:

The fact that any criticism is seen as 'something else', almost like blasphemy, is what is so off-putting, and highly suspect. I understand that from the fans point of view, considering every fanbase of a pop star is now a cult... but the fact that the actual media plays right into this is is what makes me highly skeptical that much more. I actually find it downright disturbing. I've never seen this kind of protection and praise before, while so many before her, who truly deserved fairer judgement, accolades and praise never got within an inch of it.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

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