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4 minutes ago, rebelvvv said:

Then don't become it.  Don't try to suggest as a non-American that Americans should make the US like Europe though or suggest that the EU is somehow better.  The grass is always greener, I know, but to think that everyone wants the same things is where the lack of understanding arises.

Don't forget that European security is largely paid for by NATO, supported largely by the American military and presence of the US in world affairs.  The lack of spending on security vs. what Americans do is what leaves you with the privilege of having a socialist welfare system.  Which, by the way, is only supported by everyone who's not German.  Without a capitalist healthcare system somewhere in the world, there wouldn't be the technological and medical advances for people to turn to when they're truly ill and need cutting edge treatment.  No, it's not perfect, but the European system doesn't work either IMO.

wrong on so many levels.

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2 minutes ago, elijah said:

wrong on so many levels.

None of which you can articulate.  The point is everyone views things differently, and not everyone wants every country to be the same.  If you like it better in Europe, then go to Europe.

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3 minutes ago, elijah said:

wrong on so many levels.

I know :rotfl:

It's the sublime ignorance in a nutshell. 

Oh dear, there is nothing more daring than ignorance, indeed. 

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5 minutes ago, rebelvvv said:

None of which you can articulate.  The point is everyone views things differently, and not everyone wants every country to be the same.  If you like it better in Europe, then go to Europe.

I dont want to spend too much time on it. I  feel many ppl would get immediately that its wrong. No need for explanation really. The most influential country in the world leaving their citizens with no healthcare? Mindboggling. And as for the spending on the army: most of the NATO countries are kind of obliged to buy US military equipment so in the end all money go back to the US. Its also one of the reasons why US has to start a war every couple of years.

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1.  European security is largely paid for by NATO

Wrong. European security is in danger because of NATO. Because of NATO we had the terrorist attack in Madrid in 2004. Because of NATO we have millions of refugees in Europe right now. I like the idea of NATO, only not one who has 5 countries vetoing everything and behaving like cunts. 

Every European country has its own army. Every! And we have a common force in Europe, with common policies and common treaties about defense. 

Another thing is that NATO is used for Washington interests, and of course the EU won't be paying for that. We are CLEVER. 

2.  lack of spending on security vs. what Americans do is what leaves you with the privilege of having a socialist welfare system.  Which, by the way, is only supported by everyone who's not German

This is so stupid that i don't understand it. Every country supports its own welfare system, there's not united welfare system in Europe. But believe me, everybody is treated as is if he were rich, for example in Spain. No matter who you are, no matter if you just arrived to the country, and you are suddenly ill, you are treated as if you were a rich person, and saved. Isn't that something wonderful? Well, not for you it seems. 

3.  thout a capitalist healthcare system somewhere in the world, there wouldn't be the technological and medical advances for people to turn to when they're truly ill and need cutting edge treatment

Well, this alone proves that you have zero idea. Most medical advances are right now being done in universities and medial hospitals by researchers. In Europe too, but also in Australia, India, South America, Japan... 

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1 minute ago, elijah said:

I dont want to spend too much time on it. I  feel many ppl would get immediately that its wrong. No need for explanation really. The most influential country in the world leaving their citizens with no healthcare? Mindboggling. And as for the spending on the army: most of the NATO countries are kind of obliged to buy US military equipment so in the end all money go back to the US. Its one of the reasons why US has to start a war every couple of years.

We aren't leaving our citizens with no healthcare.  It's the point that you have to work and pay for your healthcare that seems to be lost.  Could it be better?  Yes.  Was Obamacare the answer?  No.  Is socialized medicine the answer?  No.

As for NATO spending, none of it is a fraction of what the US spends on defense.  The fact is that leaves you with the privilege, again subsidized by Americans, to pursue different domestic and foreign policy to the one you claim is so terrible.

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Lol, Karbatal is almost fifty, millennial European:rotfl:

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16 minutes ago, rebelvvv said:

As for NATO spending, none of it is a fraction of what the US spends on defense.  The fact is that leaves you with the privilege, again subsidized by Americans, to pursue different domestic and foreign policy to the one you claim is so terrible.

But you gotta remember history: US and Russia were the countries with the biggest armies and still are, post WW2 you crated NATO, Moscow - Warsaw pact and both sides guaranteed  the security of other certain countries. Could any other European country have as big an army as US or Russia? Never... But if US dissolves NATO in the end, I strongly believe it would harm USA the most. Europe would be forced to create an unified army and we will (its high time to do it by the way). But USA would be isolated and would have 0 say on what wars would the EU army leed or take part in.

And that would be harmful in many ways for the USA: lately almost all of the European armies have been FORCED to take part in wars, started by USA. So to act like EU is the beneficiary of NATO contradicts all facts. But lately facts doesn't interest USA much I guess. 

If NATO dissolves, USA would continue to spend the same amount of money on army as it does. It simply would loose its European allies and wonder who would get in coalition with them now that even AUS have been bullied?

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12 minutes ago, rebelvvv said:

Then don't become it.  Don't try to suggest as a non-American that Americans should make the US like Europe though or suggest that the EU is somehow better.  The grass is always greener, I know, but to think that everyone wants the same things is where the lack of understanding arises.

Don't forget that European security is largely paid for by NATO, supported largely by the American military and presence of the US in world affairs.  The lack of spending on security vs. what Americans do is what leaves you with the privilege of having a socialist welfare system.  Which, by the way, is only supported by everyone who's not German.  Without a capitalist healthcare system somewhere in the world, there wouldn't be the technological and medical advances for people to turn to when they're truly ill and need cutting edge treatment.  No, it's not perfect, but the European system doesn't work either IMO.

"Europe" is not one monolithic country that shares the same "welfare system"

You mean the NATO that Trump just gave his full backing to, despite claiming otherwise during his campaign?

Yes, I happen to believe that EVERYONE is entitled to affordable if not FREE healthcare (which my country provides) That's one of the difference between your politics and mine.

One of the great advantages of the EU are the technological and medical advances shared among our Universities across the continent, workers rights directives and the environmental protections that your administration is intent on obliterating.

The widespread social policies of reproductive rights, gay rights, freedom of movement etc sweeping each country is to be celebrated as it moves forward, and derided wherever it moves backwards as typified by the type of people who make up the new cabinet of the USA.

Everyone (here) knows the insidious underbelly that typifies foreign policy WORLDWIDE, but that's something that remains un-quantifiable at this point, although it may help explain the war-monger, obsessed with "security" mentality that so many conservative Americans are preoccupied with.

 

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Just now, elijah said:

But you gotta remember history: US and Russia were the countries with the biggest armies and still are, post WW2 you crated NATO, Moscow - Warsaw pact and both sides guaranteed  the security of other certain countries. Could any other European country have as big an army as US or Russia? Never... But if US dissolves NATO in the end, I strongly believe it would harm USA the most. Europe would be forced to created a unified army and we will (its high time to do it by the way). But USA would be isolated and would have 0 say on what wars would the EU army leed or take part in.

And that would be harmful in many ways for the USA: lately almost all of the European armies have been FORCED to take part in wars, started by USA. So to act like EU is the beneficiary of NATO contradicts all facts. But lately facts doesn't interest USA much I guess. 

If NATO dissolves, USA would continue to spend the same amount of money on army as it does. It simply would loose its European allies and wonder who would get in coalition with them now that even AUS have been bullied?

I do remember history.  I'm not saying NATO isn't necessary for both US and European security.  It is.  But for Europeans with some holier than thou attitude and thinking they don't need the US - how did that work out for you before both world wars, that the US didn't want to get involved in?  The point is these positions are based on privilege and it's hypocritical to disdain the people providing the EU with the options to do what it does.  Just as it's hypocritical to think that not everyone might want to live the same way.

Even if Europe had a larger unified army, for geopolitical reasons it would never be as strong as it is with the US backing it.  Don't you remember history?

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9 minutes ago, Dannylex said:

Lol, Karbatal is almost fifty, millennial European:rotfl:

But looks 27.

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15 minutes ago, Kim said:

Yes, I happen to believe that EVERYONE is entitled to affordable if not FREE healthcare (which my country provides) That's one of the difference between your politics and mine.

One of the great advantages of the EU are the technological and medical advances shared among our Universities across the continent, workers rights directives and the environmental protections that your administration is intent on obliterating.

The widespread social policies of reproductive rights, gay rights, freedom of movement etc sweeping each country is to be celebrated as it moves forward, and derided wherever it moves backwards as typified by the type of people who make up the new cabinet of the USA.

Everyone (here) knows the insidious underbelly that typifies foreign policy WORLDWIDE, but that's something that remains un-quantifiable at this point, although it may help explain the war-monger, obsessed with "security" mentality that so many conservative Americans are preoccupied with.

You may believe everyone is ENTITLED to free healthcare, but who's paying for it?  Europe has much lower social mobility than the US does.  You may settle for having a decent life, but the ceiling is much lower in general.  Background matters a lot.  Just look at the lack of assimilation that immigrants have to many European countries, which led to the much bigger problem that Europe has vs. US immigrants.

People working in actual technology and medical fields feel entirely differently, but that's why we have different countries so people can decide what philosophy suits them best.

Lumping every social policy together is also simplistic and reveals a lack of understanding as to why people may have different views.  There are extremes on both sides that are not good.

BOTH establishment parties in the US are war-mongers, not just "conservative Americans".  Most actual Americans are not war-mongers.  It's the Democrats that have actually started and gotten involved in more wars than any Republican president.  Why do you think the non-interventionist policy agenda, which IS radical, was so popular?

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3 minutes ago, rebelvvv said:

I do remember history.  I'm not saying NATO isn't necessary for both US and European security.  It is.  But for Europeans with some holier than thou attitude and thinking they don't need the US - how did that work out for you before both world wars, that the US didn't want to get involved in?  The point is these positions are based on privilege and it's hypocritical to disdain the people providing the EU with the options to do what it does.  Just as it's hypocritical to think that not everyone might want to live the same way.

Even if Europe had a larger unified army, for geopolitical reasons it would never be as strong as it is with the US backing it.  Don't you remember history?

Well before WW2 Europe was DISUNIFIED, European countries non stop fighting each other. So history couldn't be of use here cause we never had unified Europe as we do today since Roman times. And there haven't been a war within EU since WW2. Thats why I find it strange that Trump, USA or anyone applauds Brexit or the eventual break up of EU. Hasn't history though us all that this could lead only to doom? USA has helped Western Europe a lot, but to think u didn't get anything in return is silly and misinformed. EU was forced many times to lead your wars and the USA was threatened by USSR at the time. I dont think Europe was privileged, it had its suffering but it has always been one of the most progressive places nevertheless.

As for EU army: we never had one so no, history is of no use on that too.

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Do we really need to discuss what is obvious? There's SCHOOL to learn about what is Europe. 

And I'm not nearly 50! I'm 41 and look very young because i get young semen. I do as Madonna does.

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3 minutes ago, elijah said:

Well before WW2 Europe was DISUNIFIED, European countries non stop fighting each other. So history couldn't be of use here cause we never had unified Europe as we do today since Roman times. And there haven't been a war within EU since WW2. Thats why I find it strange that Trump, USA or anyone applauds Brexit or the eventual break up of EU. Hasn't history though us all that this could lead only to doom? USA has helped Western Europe a lot, but to think u didn't get anything in return is silly and misinformed. EU was forced many times to lead your wars and the USA was threatened by USSR at the time. I dont think Europe was privileged, it had its suffering but it has always been one of the most progressive places nevertheless.

As for EU army: we never had one so no, history is of no use on that too.

I don't applaud Brexit or a potential break up of the EU.  That's where I think a lot of people get confused thinking they are the same things, but despite some common causes behind the sentiment people have towards those issues, it's overly simplifying things to say that Trump happened because of Brexit.  The US and the UK are entirely different in terms of scale and leverage in the world.

I never said the US didn't get anything in return from Europe, but it's the suggestion that Europe could have done fine without the US all along and is somehow morally superior that is hypocritical.  Everyone has their own worldview and truth, but to suggest that one way is better than another or that we should all adopt the same policies with no regard to geopolitical, socioeconomic, or other concerns is both naive and simplistic.

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8 minutes ago, rebelvvv said:

You may believe everyone is ENTITLED to free healthcare, but who's paying for it?  Europe has much lower social mobility than the US does.  You may settle for having a decent life, but the ceiling is much lower in general.  Background matters a lot.  Just look at the lack of assimilation that immigrants have to many European countries, which led to the much bigger problem that Europe has vs. US immigrants.

People working in actual technology and medical fields feel entirely differently, but that's why we have different countries so people can decide what philosophy suits them best.

Lumping every social policy together is also simplistic and reveals a lack of understanding as to why people may have different views.  There are extremes on both sides that are not good.

I'M paying for it via my taxes which is MY view of what a civilised society is. Again with your own simplistic... "Europe social mobility" "Europe welfare" "Europe social policy". There's no such thing. I'll say it again, the EU is not the United States of Europe nor is it intended to be such. 

Actually, people working in technological and medical fields (of whom I know many) are fighting vehemently to KEEP the close EU ties that a disaster like Brexit is threatening to sever. While some US scientists are being threatened by their own administration for publishing scientific data on social media lest we forget.

I lumped the social policies together that your government seem intent on dismantling or regressing, obviously. Which flies in the face of the progress being made elsewhere.

 

 

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3 hours ago, karbatal said:

Pud feeling rebel while typing at home 

Resultado de imagen de fake rebel gif

:lmao:

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13 minutes ago, Kim said:

I'll say it again, the EU is not the United States of Europe nor is it intended to be such. 

I agree with this.  Similarly, the US is not the Socialist States of America, nor do many people want it to be such.  We simply have different ideas of what we want in our societies, which is why they are separate countries.  I don't attempt to dictate to Europeans (in general) what you should do with your countries, so this holier than thou attitude of thinking you have a say in US domestic policy is both irrelevant and ridiculous to me.

Europeans can be disdainful and say that everyone thinks poorly of Americans, but many Americans think equally poorly of many other countries and their policies, foreign and domestic.  This doesn't help anyone or promote tolerance.

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8 minutes ago, rebelvvv said:

I agree with this.  Similarly, the US is not the Socialist States of America, nor do many people want it to be such.  We simply have different ideas of what we want in our societies, which is why they are separate countries.  I don't attempt to dictate to Europeans (in general) what you should do with your countries, so this holier than thou attitude of thinking you have a say in US domestic policy is both irrelevant and ridiculous to me.

Well thankfully I also believe in freedom of speech and the ability to talk freely about whatever I want, including US politics. I'm sure the American members of the board would be delighted to discuss your views with you....if you have any to give outwith commenting everytime someone says the word "Europe".

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1 minute ago, Pud Whacker said:

LIAR!

you delete everyones shit you dont like LIKE TRUMP WHICH I STATED EARLIER AND YOU DELETED THAT TOO!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

You're a troll and you don't count. Get it? And post anything off topic again and I'll delete that too. 

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53 minutes ago, rebelvvv said:

You may believe everyone is ENTITLED to free healthcare, but who's paying for it?  Europe has much lower social mobility than the US does.  You may settle for having a decent life, but the ceiling is much lower in general.  Background matters a lot.  Just look at the lack of assimilation that immigrants have to many European countries, which led to the much bigger problem that Europe has vs. US immigrants.

People working in actual technology and medical fields feel entirely differently, but that's why we have different countries so people can decide what philosophy suits them best.

Lumping every social policy together is also simplistic and reveals a lack of understanding as to why people may have different views.  There are extremes on both sides that are not good.

BOTH establishment parties in the US are war-mongers, not just "conservative Americans".  Most actual Americans are not war-mongers.  It's the Democrats that have actually started and gotten involved in more wars than any Republican president.  Why do you think the non-interventionist policy agenda, which IS radical, was so popular?

Rebelvvv.   I do believe in everyone being entitled to health care and education.  One of my hugest beliefs in life and something that can work perfectly with a detailed tax system.  

I know every country is different but tax systems can be used to ensure that anyone can receive health care and also that all children can be educated properly.  I know when Medicare was introduced in Australia by the Whitlam government,  it has changed our health care and given great peace of mind to the public after initial worry about too much government control.   There are many tax incentives to encourage wealthy and middle class people to have private health insurance and the majority still have private health insurance. 

I know this is another country and way of life,  but truly feel that universal health care is something worth fighting for in every nation. 

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11 minutes ago, Kim said:

Well thankfully I also believe in freedom of speech and the ability to talk freely about whatever I want, including US politics.

I agree with your freedom of speech and right to have your opinions.  Just as people shouldn't be surprised if not everyone agrees with said opinions, respectfully.  When certain posters resort time and again to personal insults as a way to refute dissent, it only proves how loony they are.  Personally, non-American opinions of US domestic policy as outsiders looking in has little relevance to me, just as my opinion about UK and European domestic policy as an American would have to you, so I don't tend to waste my time on it.  But to each their own.

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1 minute ago, jazzyjan said:

Rebelvvv.   I do believe in everyone being entitled to health care and education.  One of my hugest beliefs in life and something that can work perfectly with a detailed tax system.  

I know every country is different but tax systems can be used to ensure that anyone can receive health care and also that all children can be educated properly.  I know when Medicare was introduced in Australia by the Whitlam government,  it has changed our health care and given great peace of mind to the public after initial worry about too much government control.   There are many tax incentives to encourage wealthy and middle class people to have private health insurance and the majority still have private health insurance. 

I know this is another country and way of life,  but truly feel that universal health care is something worth fighting for in every nation. 

Jazzy, I do agree with you on these points, but the point lost is that people are saying that anyone against the ACA (Obamacare) is against health care in general.  The system we have now isn't any better than the one we had before, and is in fact, worse, because it still leaves all the leverage with the corporations.  It's not actual socialized medicine, it's a forced opt-in to capitalist medicine, which doesn't work for anyone.  No one, on either side, said that health care should leave people untreated in the streets.  As long as health care is currently decentralized though, it's never going to work the way that people idealistically think.  The fact is it needs reform.  It's not an extreme of one way or another.

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10 minutes ago, Kim said:

You're a troll and you don't count. Get it? And post anything off topic again and I'll delete that too. 

Like Trump, just because you keep repeating something isn't going to make it happen. :lol:

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1 minute ago, Pud Whacker said:

Like Trump, just because you keep repeating something isn't going to make it happen. :lol:

Make what happen? If you want banned from the politics section then I can make that happen easily. So either contribute normally, or don't. As the OWNER of the board already told you: this isn't a democracy, it's a Madonna message board.

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1 minute ago, Kim said:

Make what happen? If you want banned from the politics section then I can make that happen easily. So either contribute normally, or don't. As the OWNER of the board already told you: this isn't a democracy, it's a Madonna message board.

You know what Kim. Ill leave now happily and let the 5 of you brown nose each other. You suspended @WeboGirl because he didn't like what she was saying even though you were absolutely cruel in your manner with her. LIKE A TRUMP!

Go fuck yourself. Im out! Have fun with the 5 remaining members. 

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30 minutes ago, rebelvvv said:

I agree with your freedom of speech and right to have your opinions.  Just as people shouldn't be surprised if not everyone agrees with said opinions, respectfully.  When certain posters resort time and again to personal insults as a way to refute dissent, it only proves how loony they are.  Personally, non-American opinions of US domestic policy as outsiders looking in has little relevance to me, just as my opinion about UK and European domestic policy as an American would have to you, so I don't tend to waste my time on it.  But to each their own.

Sorry, that's a very ignorant statement because you automatically shut down any discussion that may be fruitful to either party. And since you have mentioned healthcare, my country introduced universal healthcare in the 1880s. It's working for almost 140 years now. For everyone involved. For employers, for employees, for unemployed, for retired people, for children and this list goes on. If you don't call that a rousing success than I don't know what. And it's way cheaper than the U.S. system. Again for everyone involved.

Furthermore I would like to add that from my experience, people in Europe, in general, know much more about and are way more interested in the U.S.,  politics and culture, than Americans, up to the point that I think average Europeans many times know more about the things going on in the U.S. than average U.S. citizens themselves. Just as way more Europeans have visited the U.S. than Americans have visited Europe (well, who needs to see the Eiffel Tower or take a gondola ride in Venice when you have imitations in Las Vegas or why visit Neuschwanstein Castle when you can find an imitation in Orlando, FL and Anaheim, CA). Again, Europeans seem to be way more interested to get to know the U.S. than Americans are interested in Europe. I do think the majority of Americans live a very isolated life. A fact I also blame on the media in the U.S. Compared to them the European media is reporting on things in the U.S., not just politics, to a great extent. I find it kind of insulting that you say, the "hollier than you Europeans" when many many Americans know nothing about us but dare to have opinions about things like our welfare systems and defense.

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24 minutes ago, Pud Whacker said:

You know what Kim. Ill leave now happily and let the 5 of you brown nose each other. You suspended @WeboGirl because he didn't like what she was saying even though you were absolutely cruel in your manner with her. LIKE A TRUMP!

Go fuck yourself. Im out! Have fun with the 5 remaining members. 

Three or four days in a row that you've turned this thread into your own little pity party.

WeboGirl was suspended for being a disgusting pain in the arse.

Like I said, you can contribute like a normal poster or not. Your choice. We don't need people playing Devils Advocate or Contrary Mary. This isn't  the debating team in highschool, we are all worldy adults. We can open up facebook or twiitter to see nutters spewing their guts, we can buy rags like The Daily Mail or The Sun instead of cutting and pasting it 'without comment' like some sort of advocate for free speech. This is a forum to give YOUR opinion which you never do. It's not your job to give the "other side". It's your job to give YOUR VIEW, just as ALL VIEWS from different posters are welcome here as I've said before.

There's an inflammatory and (borderline) trolling edge to your posts here for a long time now. It may well just be a reflection of where you are in life with yourself or your Madonna fandom, but this isn't the depository for it. And when it affects other posters, as it HAS, then action needs to be taken at some point.

Your choice.

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6 minutes ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

Sorry, that's a very ignorant statement because you automatically shut down any discussion that may be fruitful to either party. And since you have mentioned healthcare, my country introduced universal healthcare in the 1880s. It's working for almost 140 years now. For everyone involved. For employers, for employees, for unemployed, for retired people, for children and this list goes on. If you don't call that a rousing success than I don't know what. And it's way cheaper than the U.S. system. Again for everyone involved.

Furthermore I would like to add that from my experience, people in Europe, in general, know much more about and are way more interested in the U.S.,  politics and culture, than Americans, up to the point that I think average Europeans many times know more about the things going on in the U.S. than average U.S. citizens themselves. Just as way more Europeans have visited the U.S. than Americans have visited Europe (well, who needs to see the Eiffel Tower or take a gondola ride in Venice when you have imitations in Las Vegas or why visit Neuschwanstein Castle when you can find an imitation in Orlando, FL and Anaheim, CA). Again, Europeans seem to be way more interested to get to know the U.S. than Americans are interested in Europe. I do think the majority of Americans live a very isolated life. A fact I also blame on the media in the U.S. Compared to them the European media is reporting on things in the U.S., not just politics, to a great extent. I find it kind of insulting that you say, the "hollier than you Europeans" when many many Americans know nothing about us but dare to have opinions about things like our welfare systems and defense.

I so agree with everything u said. Why shouldn't we have opinion on Trump when he could easily start WW3 for all, Europeans included? Shouldn't we have an opinion on the last quarrels with Iran? Do the Americans even have any idea what Iran was and is? Its not Iraq and all that is quite dangerous and could affect us all.

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