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33 minutes ago, jazzyjan said:

I know that banks and corporates rule the world, but conservative and right wing parties support their ideology more.

 It is somewhat dangerous to forgot that and lump both parties in with each other.  He might not have achieved his ultimate goals but Obama tried to reform health care and gun control, something that Trump has no intention of doing so and will turn backwards.  The parties are not the same on all issues. 

 

I have to disagree with that, it is a very commonly mistaken assumption. and that's a fundamental element of this whole discussion. If we are not aware of that or admitting to that, we cannot proceed objectively.

Left wing parties in the US, France, Italy and other countries (where they have governed in the aftermath of 2008) have unfortunately done more to support that ideology of corporate clientelism, job deregulation and banking interests than any right or left wing Western governments seen before. People who traditionally vote for the Left especially in countries like Italy, France, the UK have noticed that and felt the burden of it big time.

That's why you have Eurosceptiscism and third party movements in those countries and ultimately something like Brexit taking place. Middle and working class people have felt betrayed by the one party that was supposed to represent their interests the most and the best.

The American Left has wholly embraced neoliberalism and in doing so has consigned the country to "useful idiot" Trump, the only problem is that he's not Russia's useful idiot but of those Western elites (whether he's conscious of it or not)  that are so eager to have a third global conflict to begin with, because through him we are stuck on all of this trivial discourse of deliberately offensive, gimmicky sound bites while once again, the same policies we have seen during the Bush years continued with the Obama admin and there is no reason why they shouldn't under Trump

When you look at the merit of the actual policies that have been implemented you cannot deny there is a scary fluidity to them.

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13 hours ago, madonnasuperfan01 said:

 

Tell me: why is the US so friendly with Saudi Arabia, if they care so much about overthrowing nefarious players? Saudi Arabia is the most fascist and oppressive country in the world yet the US treat them like good friends. For me that alone shows all the wars the US is doing all the time has NOTHING to do with overthrowing bad guys. It's all about control and money. I don't understand why more people in the US can't see it.

The government (both Democrats and Republicans, there's no difference) always pretend all those wars are about "briging democracy to oppressive countries" yet they are best friends with some of the most oppressive countries on Earth. Complete and obvious hypocrisy. Unfortunately too many Americans just turn a blind eye to it, worse they gleefully vote for warmongers like Bush or Hillary Clinton. I hope it's gonna change in the future, i'm not too hopeful though.

Well, I cannot speak for every American, but I myself am certainly not blind to it. And I don't necessarily disagree with you. Saudi Arabia is an oppressive country and certainly not one I would say is anything like what we'd want to be. It's purely a relationship of convenience and strategy. I was thinking more along the lines of dictatorships that use chemical weapons on their own people (Syria) or invade sovereign nations and annex parts of them (Russia in Crimea). I accept the fact that the line drawn on what qualifies is not clear and may sometimes be hypocritical. 

Here is how I would frame it: The U.S. needs allies in the Middle East in order to maintain some sort of presence (and you're right - that means a level of control) to protect energy resources (oil). Israel (and maybe Jordan) are probably the only real allies there for us. It's in our interest to have a strong Arab nation with more political clout than Jordan - so Saudi Arabia fits the bill. That is why no matter who is elected - Democrat, Republican, or Independent - would probably always maintain that alliance. The only other option I see is to remove ourselves completely from the region (at least in any meaningful sense) and then another foreign heavyweight would step in to take that role - likely Russia or China. So the question is, would people rather have one of those two filling the vacuum? A straight-up oligarchy far more corrupt than the U.S. (well, until the Trump government proves otherwise) or a country like China who commits far more human rights abuses than lots of other big players?

I think in that respect, there might be no difference in how U.S. political parties act. However, at home, they are very different in domestic policy. I think this is why most Americans "turn a blind eye". They are voting for food on their kitchen table or better healthcare access, foreign policy is an after thought sometimes. Even I admit, who am I going to vote for if not someone whose domestic policy is favorable? There really are no other options.

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1 hour ago, impr3ssive_instant said:

Wow this is extremely well said :clap:

 

Glad you found it clear :laugh: 

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1 hour ago, XXL said:

I mean that an incredible number of policies on several fronts have literally, seamlessly and shockingly stayed the same from a Bush adminstration to an Obama one, which in theory should have been diametrically opposed, unless you look at it from the perspective of who engineers and benefits the most from putting those very similar policies in place through one administration at one time and another one later on

Democracy Exportation  (a scam)

Terrorism (real of course but who funds it/controls it and ultimately benefits from it? these are the fundamental questions we are rarely asking ourselves imo), the notion that it would be a mere cultural issue/clash of civilisations and not something of vastly more serious geopolitical ramifications is preposterous considering currency, energy, market scenarios etc

Immigration and deportation

Banking deregulation in the wake of the worst financial collapse since 1929 (and even that was created on purpose by Obama's predecessors)

The proliferation of private security agencies in order to exert more control over people's privacy/feeedom of expression , even when it doesn't have anything to do with security issues, look at Snowden's revelations, look at the recently approved Snooper chart in Britain and similar acts being passed in other countries

 

I think people get lost in the narrative of Trump the racist, the chauvinist etc etc, which everyone can see and missing out that the same people that have infiltrated the Obama administration and were previously running the Bush years will and perhaps have already found a way to slip into Trump's ship. So the enemy is a corporate system. rather than one specific person or party, a system that has hijacked both the right and the left and uses them in alternance to fulfill its goals and needs with zero fucks given for the population

And by way when I say the Left and Right look increasingly more and more similar, I didn't mean just in the US but everywhere, that's why in Europe we've had Brexit, you have Farage, Le Pen, Salvini and a sentiment of anti corporations/anti TTIP, CETA, all those huge transcontinental murky deals, with the bad news being that those type of politicians foment a sense of protectionism and anti immigration and exploit people's fears while the immigrants who they feel threatened by are being displaced from their original countries by the same corporate interests that manouvre both the traditional main left and right parties with their fake democracy exportation imposed wars. So there u go, coming full circle with the original problem which is a highly contrived, wilily deceptive form of democracy, answering private corporate interests not our own collective interests and rights as human beings, regardless of labels and citizenship

I think I understand what you are saying here, however how anyone would destroy all the corporations is beyond me. As long as we live in a capitalist society (which is much of the West and even more so China now), money and the desire for it will drive almost every motivation of human existence. The resolution you seek would have to be some kind of catastrophic event so widespread (nuclear war, mass plague, etc.) that the survivors abandon all past social structures and values and adopt entirely new ones.

I can tell you that this new wave of populism is just a mask for a new kind of dictatorship. This wave will not result in the betterment of humanity.

Circling back to my previous point, if the Democratic party didn't care about people and only their corporate masters, why would they have passed any kind of Wall Street reform (which includes the Consumer Protection Bureau - brainchild of Elizabeth Warren)? Why extend healthcare and subsidize it for millions of low income Americans? Corporations haven't really gained anything from those things. In fact, they hate them both and want them destroyed. Personally, I do see a difference - at least in that regard.

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58 minutes ago, Nightshade said:

Well, I cannot speak for every American, but I myself am certainly not blind to it. And I don't necessarily disagree with you. Saudi Arabia is an oppressive country and certainly not one I would say is anything like what we'd want to be. It's purely a relationship of convenience and strategy. I was thinking more along the lines of dictatorships that use chemical weapons on their own people (Syria) or invade sovereign nations and annex parts of them (Russia in Crimea). I accept the fact that the line drawn on what qualifies is not clear and may sometimes be hypocritical. 

Here is how I would frame it: The U.S. needs allies in the Middle East in order to maintain some sort of presence (and you're right - that means a level of control) to protect energy resources (oil). Israel (and maybe Jordan) are probably the only real allies there for us. It's in our interest to have a strong Arab nation with more political clout than Jordan - so Saudi Arabia fits the bill. That is why no matter who is elected - Democrat, Republican, or Independent - would probably always maintain that alliance. The only other option I see is to remove ourselves completely from the region (at least in any meaningful sense) and then another foreign heavyweight would step in to take that role - likely Russia or China. So the question is, would people rather have one of those two filling the vacuum? A straight-up oligarchy far more corrupt than the U.S. (well, until the Trump government proves otherwise) or a country like China who commits far more human rights abuses than lots of other big players?

I think in that respect, there might be no difference in how U.S. political parties act. However, at home, they are very different in domestic policy. I think this is why most Americans "turn a blind eye". They are voting for food on their kitchen table or better healthcare access, foreign policy is an after thought sometimes. Even I admit, who am I going to vote for if not someone whose domestic policy is favorable? There really are no other options.

 

But this is a fundamental part of the issue and one which has nullified any pretence of credibility in American foreign policy for decades. The US is done politically and financially without their alliance with corrupt, oppressive Saudi Arabia.That notion alone undermines the opportunity and real motivation behind every constant intervention and meddling into other countries domestic affairs, illegal invasions included

Look at what is going on in Venezuela because they dared to say no to Washington

So how can the US government claim that they want to depose Assad for the sake of the Syrians while they've spent decades in a friendship to a country that is 1000 times more brutal? It doesn't make sense, other than conveniency sense

 

The US Dollar has been tied to the oil system since 1971, post Bretton Woods Gold Standard era. Everything's changed for the worse since then

 

Why for instance do you think they took down Gaddafi in 2011? When he was received with all political honours a mere 6 months before all over Europe, after he had been ruling the way he did for over 30 years, did they suddenly (once again) realise he was a bad dictator? No, they've always known that and have kept him there all along, just like they did with Saddam. Back in 2009 he started speaking about his plans to create a Gold Dinar currency basket in the region to switch any African countries and Middle Eastern countries from a Dollar denominated economy back to a Gold Standard one

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, XXL said:

 

But this is a fundamental part of the issue and one which has nullified any pretence of credibility in American foreign policy for decades. The US is done politically and financially without their alliance with corrupt, oppressive Saudi Arabia.That notion alone undermines the opportunity of every constant intervention and meddling into other countries domestic affairs, included illegal invasions

Look at what is going on in Venezuela because they dared to say no to Washington

So how can the US government claim that they want to depose Assad for the sake of the Syrians while they've spent decades in a friendship to a country that is 1000 times more brutal? It doesn't make sense, other than conveniency sense

 

The US Dollar has been tied to the oil system since 1971, post Bretton Woods Gold Standard era. Everything's changed for the worse since then

 

Why for instance do you think they took down Gaddafi in 2011? When he was received with all political honours a mere 6 months before all over Europe, after he had been ruling the way he did for over 30 years, did they suddenly (once again) realise he was a bad dictator? No, he spoke about his plans to create a Gold Dinar currency basket in the region to switch any African countries and Middle Eastern countries from a Dollar denominated economy back to a Gold Standard one

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is Saudi Arabia using chemical weapons on its own people? Is it bombing its own hospitals? I mean, if they are 1000x more worse, we should all be doing something. But wait, we're not supposed to meddle! Ok. Well, I am going to get a Starbucks mocha while those Aleppo peeps roast in a living hell because that's their problem, not mine. Oh wait, now I am a privileged American who cares nothing for the troubles of my fellow man. Guess we can't win.

Well, what is it that would make people happy? You can't please everyone. Even Madonna preaches that. Sometimes you gotta live your life and try to do what's right. And sometimes, it's not enough.

Venezuela's problems relate to political corruption and falling oil prices. In many ways, they are suffering in similar regard to Russia. 95% of their export revenue is from oil. Price goes down - boom! Economic crash. I will agree that the U.S.'s increased oil output has cratered prices and that makes oil-reliant economies like Russia and Venezuela suffer significantly, but one would wonder why their leadership doesn't diversify their economies to be protected against these things? I actually don't think the U.S. government gives a shit about Venezuela opposing them. They were just collateral damage in collective efforts to harm the Russian economy (which the U.S., Canada and the EU did on purpose).

I often wonder why anyone tries to convince me with YouTube videos on conspiracies. Will it convince me to not vote for anyone at all? I feel like this forum is a lot of people arguing that the system is rigged, and I don't doubt it. But who and what is going to change it? Seriously? I am not joking. Bernie isn't going to change it. Elizabeth Warren isn't going to. Putin sure isn't going to.

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11 minutes ago, Nightshade said:

.....

I often wonder why anyone tries to convince me with YouTube videos on conspiracies. Will it convince me to not vote for anyone at all? I feel like this forum is a lot of people arguing that the system is rigged, and I don't doubt it. But who and what is going to change it? Seriously? I am not joking. Bernie isn't going to change it. Elizabeth Warren isn't going to. Putin sure isn't going to.

That's why a lot voted for Trump, we're TRYING to get some hard core change here. Whether it be good or bad remains to be seen but at least it's CHANGE. I wish ppl would understand that when it comes to despising Trump voters. Anyhow I've said this 100x. I'm boring myself.

XXL made some good points about being, ugh, friendly with Saudi Arabia; China swooping in and controlling the Middle East  but the thought of being allies with SA makes me wanna puke. There's got to be a better way. Maybe we should just bomb them and they won't be so powerful anymore. Politics is hard! See this is why I dont like ppl as a whole. Individually, no problem, but humans as a whole are  nuts. Everything has to be so damn complicated in the never ending quest for power. Just go get a cappucino and quit dickin everybody around. 

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3 minutes ago, Sloane said:

That's why a lot voted for Trump, we're TRYING to get some hard core change here. Whether it be good or bad remains to be seen but at least it's CHANGE. I wish ppl would understand that when it comes to despising Trump voters. Anyhow I've said this 100x. I'm boring myself.

XXL made some good points about being, ugh, friendly with Saudi Arabia; China swooping in and controlling the Middle East  but the thought of being allies with SA makes me wanna puke. There's got to be a better way. Maybe we should just bomb them and they won't be so powerful anymore. Politics is hard! See this is why I dont like ppl as a whole. Individually, no problem, but humans as a whole are  nuts. Everything has to be so damn complicated in the never ending quest for power. Just go get a cappucino and quit dickin everybody around. 

:headbang:

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2 hours ago, Sloane said:

That's why a lot voted for Trump, we're TRYING to get some hard core change here. Whether it be good or bad remains to be seen but at least it's CHANGE. I wish ppl would understand that when it comes to despising Trump voters. Anyhow I've said this 100x. I'm boring myself.

XXL made some good points about being, ugh, friendly with Saudi Arabia; China swooping in and controlling the Middle East  but the thought of being allies with SA makes me wanna puke. There's got to be a better way. Maybe we should just bomb them and they won't be so powerful anymore. Politics is hard! See this is why I dont like ppl as a whole. Individually, no problem, but humans as a whole are  nuts. Everything has to be so damn complicated in the never ending quest for power. Just go get a cappucino and quit dickin everybody around. 

If your house has a shitty roof, you don't burn the house down to fix it. But again, I realize we are dealing with people who are so desperate for a change they can't see that such an option actually hurts them more than maintaining the status quo. Well, they are going to get what's coming to them. 

And, I'm sorry, bomb them? Politics is hard? I am not even sure why I bother coming into this thread to discuss this stuff. Only in this ridiculous place would someone say we shouldn't be allies with an oppressive and backward regime and then turn around and advocate bombing them to solve the problem. As if every Saudi man, woman and child being repressed would welcome that type of reaction.

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13 hours ago, mnino said:

You are correct in that I partially don't agree with your point of view. But I'm not sure you understand what I don't agree. I will try to clarify it.

I completely understand and respect your disdain for the Trumpster, he is vile. What's to disagree there? Is he going to "save" America and "make it great" again? I wouldn't bet on it. So we do have something in common.

However, I am not going to inundate my Facebook, Twitter, Madonnation, whatever, with over the top anti-Trump rhetoric because I believe it's counterproductive in our current environment. He was elected even though I did not vote for him. What else can be done? Impeach him? Well, it will probably happen. What can I do as a citizen at this time? I could protest. But protest against what? His election? He won it. What else to protest? Should I protest because he is not morally admirable? Yes, but everyone already knows that. What would that accomplish?

I will be the first one to voice disagreement with any of his policies that I believe are not for the benefit of the nation. So far all I can do is dislike some of his picks for his cabinet. Mr. Exxon and Mr. Sessions leave A LOT to be desired and I hope that the vetting continues. Am I convinced that it will work? I'm not sure. Then what? What can I do? Whine? What I can do is have level headed conversations with people surrounding me about how I believe this corporate approach to diplomacy may not be a great approach. And if someone disagrees with me, I will not suddenly label them Trump admirers. 

Ultimately what can really be accomplished if no one consciously attempts to stay neutral amidst this political polarizing of America? Labeling people that consider themselves neutral as Trump supporters is just going to alienate them in my opinion. And I firmly believe that the democrats are doing themselves no favor by labeling every Trump voter as a supporter of bigotry, homophobia, etc. 

So, I disagree with you regarding the absence of neutrality when it comes to Mr. Trump. My disagreement with your opinions have more to do with style than substance. I think I did undermine your view that the US will become another Russia and that Trump will set us back 20 years because I seriously disagree with both stances. And I really fail to see how that makes me suddenly a Trump supporter. 

Most of my discussions on this forum were regarding how he won the election by winning the blue collar vote in the Rust Belt, how our media created him and ironically lost its credibility with the masses because of it and how scary it is to have journalists that are so clearly biased on both sides of the spectrum. 

I am not afraid of voicing my opinion when I think it can make a difference. I don't see the need to keep repeating how awful the guy is because everybody knows it. You may continue to label me whatever you want though. Just be careful of who you label your enemy because you may find yourself surrounded by people that won't challenge you. 

Relax. Better days will come. 

:clap:

While I can't sign on to all of it, it's refreshing to see such a cogent analysis. Why is this kind of attitude in such short supply these days?

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17 hours ago, MeakMaker said:

Thank you mnino And I agree with you I shouldn't go on and on on tangent about Trump. My opinion won't change anything after all.  And it's true we all should be more positive and think for the better. Have a really good year. :brenspin:

MM, 

I apologize for singling you out somewhat. At one point in my life I was as passionate as you about political things. I was in college and on everybody's face about W's Iraq war snafu. Ultimately, most people didn't listen to me because I was talking at them and not listening to them. I guess your rhetoric reminded me of myself and I maybe unconsciously wanted to help you. Who knows? What I know is that your opinion CAN change people's point of you if they are willing to listen. You just need time to figure out what works best for you.

I have to admit that I have become somewhat of a Cynic in that I put a lot of value in self-control and independence. But I would loathe living in a world full of people like me. So, please stay passionate and fight for what you believe. Just don't let your valid points be overshadowed by your desire to be emphatic. 

Positivity won't hurt either.

I hope you have a really good year too. You're are much more in charge of your year than Trump so don't let him ruin it.

Cheers.

 

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5 hours ago, Love Spent said:

:clap:

While I can't sign on to all of it, it's refreshing to see such a cogent analysis. Why is this kind of attitude in such short supply these days?

Merci.

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11 hours ago, Nightshade said:

Well, I cannot speak for every American, but I myself am certainly not blind to it. And I don't necessarily disagree with you. Saudi Arabia is an oppressive country and certainly not one I would say is anything like what we'd want to be. It's purely a relationship of convenience and strategy. I was thinking more along the lines of dictatorships that use chemical weapons on their own people (Syria) or invade sovereign nations and annex parts of them (Russia in Crimea). I accept the fact that the line drawn on what qualifies is not clear and may sometimes be hypocritical. 

Here is how I would frame it: The U.S. needs allies in the Middle East in order to maintain some sort of presence (and you're right - that means a level of control) to protect energy resources (oil). Israel (and maybe Jordan) are probably the only real allies there for us. It's in our interest to have a strong Arab nation with more political clout than Jordan - so Saudi Arabia fits the bill. That is why no matter who is elected - Democrat, Republican, or Independent - would probably always maintain that alliance. The only other option I see is to remove ourselves completely from the region (at least in any meaningful sense) and then another foreign heavyweight would step in to take that role - likely Russia or China. So the question is, would people rather have one of those two filling the vacuum? A straight-up oligarchy far more corrupt than the U.S. (well, until the Trump government proves otherwise) or a country like China who commits far more human rights abuses than lots of other big players?

I think in that respect, there might be no difference in how U.S. political parties act. However, at home, they are very different in domestic policy. I think this is why most Americans "turn a blind eye". They are voting for food on their kitchen table or better healthcare access, foreign policy is an after thought sometimes. Even I admit, who am I going to vote for if not someone whose domestic policy is favorable? There really are no other options.

Well, since the Republicans have complete power right now those things are not likely to happen. Voters all over the world are experts in voting against their own best interests. I mean a LOT of Republicans don't even know that Obamacare and the ACA are the same thing...

Thank you for your message, it was an interesting read :thumbsup:

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Mainstream media is nothing but propaganda those days. I take alternative media over it any day.

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39 minutes ago, Love Spent said:

sGKOzaHU0NgbF_BnnHCFiXZS6q-ZgMf4va2yLMsy

Oh come the fuck on :lmao:So basically everything is fake news, but Fox News isn't? 

Like always, Love Spent quoting extremely biased and conservative sources 

trump-damage-control-ben-garrison-web_or

 

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Yay, Trump and the Republicans are cleaning Washington by filling our government with Wall Street execs! WOO HOO

trump-sweeps-ben-garrison_2_orig.jpg

 

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@ULIZOS

I didn't post this guy Garrison's entire lifes work. I saw his work for the first time today, this cartoon I posted, and it felt relevant to our current predicament.

And besides, aren't MSNBC/CNN/NYT ect. unbiased? Or...

Hence the term 'Mainstream Media'. As in, the majority of people get their news from them, right? Or at least they used to.

Check out current ratings for CNN, MSNBC, FOX...they are in the toilet. All TV/print news really. Hence the dinosaur reference. People have moved on and their monopoly on news distribution is done. That is the reason I posted it.

Edit the pic to include Fox or whatever where the dino's asshole should be and call it a day!

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22 minutes ago, Love Spent said:

@ULIZOS

I didn't post this guy Garrison's entire lifes work. I saw his work for the first time today, this cartoon I posted, and it felt relevant to our current predicament.

And besides, aren't MSNBC/CNN/NYT ect. unbiased? Or...

Hence the term 'Mainstream Media'. As in, the majority of people get their news from them, right? Or at least they used to.

Check out current ratings for CNN, MSNBC, FOX...they are in the toilet. All TV/print news really. Hence the dinosaur reference. People have moved on and their monopoly on news distribution is done. That is the reason I posted it.

Edit the pic to include Fox or whatever where the dino's asshole should be and call it a day!

No, but the cartoonist clearly has an agenda, the exact same reason why you and others (Trump) supposedly hate CNN, MSNBC, etc. 

P.S. I don't read, watch, listen to any of those and I think they're all trash, but Fox News is the worst offender, together with MSNBC. They pass off people's opinions as news. That's not news. It's a bunch of assholes pushing their views on millions of viewers. 

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7 minutes ago, Love Spent said:

There is no 'hate' on my side for CNN etc. I can't speak for Fox because I never saw the channel. It was mentioned in my friends and family circles about how awful it was though.

I realized, around 8 years ago, that TV news were pushing an agenda and are motivated my money. For a long time I thought they were just mirroring my personal beliefs without influencing me in any real way. I was wrong. So I disconnected. I haven't owned a television for 10 years. The bits of news I see on YT are my only exposure to 'Mainstream Media'. I do still read print media but only online.

Yes, we can absolutely agree that most of it is garbage. It's editorialising pertending to be journalism.

So can you see why I think it's kind of ridiculous when you share a political cartoon by someone who clearly praises Fox News, which we both agree is garbage, but attacks basically every other organization that's reported on something Trump didn't agree with? 

I'm not defending them, but he's clearly not calling into question the U.S. Media, which thanks to their lies and public manipulation have led us into disastrous wars all over the world, just as an example, he's just calling into question anyone who calls into question his own conservative ideologies.

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Yes, now that I've seen more of his work he is a Trump supporter.

The're a million and one 'MSM is dead' cartoons. The one I posted highlights the fact people are searching for alternatives to it. Online specifically.

Like I said, add the Fox asshole or just say 'MEDIA' and make everyone happy.

 

 

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Just now, Love Spent said:

There is no 'hate' on my side for CNN etc. I can't speak for Fox because I never saw the channel. It was mentioned in my friends and family circles about how awful it was though.

I realized, around 8 years ago, that TV news were pushing an agenda and are motivated my money. For a long time I thought they were just mirroring my personal beliefs without influencing me in any real way. I was wrong. So I disconnected. I haven't owned a television for 10 years. The bits of news I see on YT are my only exposure.

Yes, we can absolutely agree that most of it is garbage. It's editorialising pertending to be journalism.

Alright Madonna!  Looks like we have an American Lifer here....lol

One of the reasons I find Trump ridiculous is that anything that may be perceived as unfavorable toward him is deemed "fake" or "rigged" by him and his people. Up until Nov 7th, the election was "rigged".....and now that concrete evidence is starting to trickle in showing that it wasn't necessarily "rigged" per se but certainly meddled in, now THAT is "fake"....well, it was until a couple days ago when he had no choice but to acknowledge and accept the fact that there was some meddling (at the very least) going on. 

Secondly, in regard to a comment Sloane made about the reasons why Trump voters voted for him, I do get that. I really do. Both sides, the "status quo" or whatever you want to call it have lost the plot in a lot of ways so I can see where someone completely left field, with no real political history, not ties to any "political dynasties" could be appealing to someone. Why not give it a try? What is there to lose at this point, is what I'm sure quite a few Trump voters thought when casting their vote for The Orange One. However, that kind of verifies the suspicion I had all along.....it could've been ANYONE sort of unconventional up there and they would've gotten the same votes out of what is basically desperation. That's scary to me. I just don't think those people fully realize what they've done.....not just in terms of the next 4 years (if he's lucky) of Trump's presidency but all candidates going forward. Are we just going to allow ANY common trash in that seat now?? Even some of Trump's biggest supporters recognize he's a horrible person, he's just not status quo and " breath of fresh air", that's the appeal. Are we just going to turn a blind eye to our candidates being completely morally bankrupt going forward? The bar has been lowered. The POTUS title no longer means what it did before this to me. So going forward, why not Kanye? Or ying to Trump's yang, why not Michael Moore? Why not Madonna for that matter? Why not Mary Carey? Why not Mariah Carey? I mean....where do we draw the line at this point?

Thirdly, what really gets under my skin about all of this is that if Obama had done ANY of the things Trump did during his campaign......mocking handicapped people, videos of him talking about grabbing a white woman by the pussy, accusations of sexual harassment, mocking war heroes, calling Hillary a "nasty woman" in a debate, not EVER (even now) straight up answering a question without talking in circles etc etc etc etc etc etc ETC.....the same people that voted for Trump, would've deemed Obama an evil black man not worthy of being POTUS......so why is it that behavior acceptable for one but not another? It's incredibly hypocritical that the same people that for the past 8 years (and I don't give a fuck if Hillary started it or not...she certainly didn't perpetuate it over the years) have tried to discredit the man by claiming he's not even an American citizen, a terrorist....I mean Muslim....a traitor, these same people clap for Putin and either turn a blind eye or simply don't care about the possibility of Russia interfering with our election. Again, why is it what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander??

 

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18 minutes ago, Kurt420 said:

Alright Madonna!  Looks like we have an American Lifer here....lol

One of the reasons I find Trump ridiculous is that anything that may be perceived as unfavorable toward him is deemed "fake" or "rigged" by him and his people. Up until Nov 7th, the election was "rigged".....and now that concrete evidence is starting to trickle in showing that it wasn't necessarily "rigged" per se but certainly meddled in, now THAT is "fake"....well, it was until a couple days ago when he had no choice but to acknowledge and accept the fact that there was some meddling (at the very least) going on. 

Secondly, in regard to a comment Sloane made about the reasons why Trump voters voted for him, I do get that. I really do. Both sides, the "status quo" or whatever you want to call it have lost the plot in a lot of ways so I can see where someone completely left field, with no real political history, not ties to any "political dynasties" could be appealing to someone. Why not give it a try? What is there to lose at this point, is what I'm sure quite a few Trump voters thought when casting their vote for The Orange One. However, that kind of verifies the suspicion I had all along.....it could've been ANYONE sort of unconventional up there and they would've gotten the same votes out of what is basically desperation. That's scary to me. I just don't think those people fully realize what they've done.....not just in terms of the next 4 years (if he's lucky) of Trump's presidency but all candidates going forward. Are we just going to allow ANY common trash in that seat now?? Even some of Trump's biggest supporters recognize he's a horrible person, he's just not status quo and " breath of fresh air", that's the appeal. Are we just going to turn a blind eye to our candidates being completely morally bankrupt going forward? The bar has been lowered. The POTUS title no longer means what it did before this to me. So going forward, why not Kanye? Or ying to Trump's yang, why not Michael Moore? Why not Madonna for that matter? Why not Mary Carey? Why not Mariah Carey? I mean....where do we draw the line at this point?

Thirdly, what really gets under my skin about all of this is that if Obama had done ANY of the things Trump did during his campaign......mocking handicapped people, videos of him talking about grabbing a white woman by the pussy, accusations of sexual harassment, mocking war heroes, calling Hillary a "nasty woman" in a debate, not EVER (even now) straight up answering a question without talking in circles etc etc etc etc etc etc ETC.....the same people that voted for Trump, would've deemed Obama an evil black man not worthy of being POTUS......so why is it that behavior acceptable for one but not another? It's incredibly hypocritical that the same people that for the past 8 years (and I don't give a fuck if Hillary started it or not...she certainly didn't perpetuate it over the years) have tried to discredit the man by claiming he's not even an American citizen, a terrorist....I mean Muslim....a traitor, these same people clap for Putin and either turn a blind eye or simply don't care about the possibility of Russia interfering with our election. Again, why is it what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander??

 

We live in the age of celebrities. Most of my friends talk about celebrity gossip like we all SHOULD be talking about politics, current events, the economy, etc., etc. Trump, for me, is just a reflection of what our society currently values most.

People aren't interested in someone who's intellectual, well-spoken, etc. They want someone to scream and shout and SAY the things they want to hear without ever backing it up. 

In the case of Trump, he said during his first news conference in 6 months that he's going to announce the best healthcare reform in the history of the U.S. without giving a single detail about what that means, and then you have people like our very own Sloane saying that his press conference was AMAZING. :blink::wacko::lmao:

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Hell, ask @Sloane or @Love Spent what "Make America Great Again" actually means and I doubt they, both of who voted for Trump, would even agree :lmao:However, it has a nice ring to it, like Hope did in 2008, and voila, you got yourself a new POTUS :lmao:

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24 minutes ago, ULIZOS said:

Hell, ask @Sloane or @Love Spent what "Make America Great Again" actually means and I doubt they, both of who voted for Trump, would even agree :lmao:However, it has a nice ring to it, like Hope did in 2008, and voila, you got yourself a new POTUS :lmao:

Actually Trump 'borrowed' that phrase from Regan. He trademarked it in 2015.

It means whatever you want it to mean. Just like Hope and Change. As you alluded to.:angel:

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2 minutes ago, Love Spent said:

Actually Trump 'stole' that phrase from Regan. He trademarked it in 2015.

It means whatever you want it to mean. Just like Hope and Change. As you alluded to.:angel:

What do you mean by trademarked? Like, he owns it now and makes money off of it? :dead: You voted for a con man. Have you been paying attention to the senate hearings for his cabinet picks? They all basically believe in the opposite of what Trump has been pandering to you people for the last year. 

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For clarification: He petitioned for it in 2012 and was awarded the trademark in 2015, according to CNN.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/08/investing/donald-trump-make-america-great-again-trademark/

The trademark was a business decision. And that's problematic? I will watch the hearings this weekend, if I find the time.

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23 minutes ago, ULIZOS said:

We live in the age of celebrities. Most of my friends talk about celebrity gossip like we all SHOULD be talking about politics, current events, the economy, etc., etc. Trump, for me, is just a reflection of what our society currently values most.

People aren't interested in someone who's intellectual, well-spoken, etc. They want someone to scream and shout and SAY the things they want to hear without ever backing it up. 

In the case of Trump, he said during his first news conference in 6 months that he's going to announce the best healthcare reform in the history of the U.S. without giving a single detail about what that means, and then you have people like our very own Sloane saying that his press conference was AMAZING. :blink::wacko::lmao:

All true. Good point. People are more celeb/scandal obsessed than ever. People love sound bytes and Tweets that they can dramatically wig out over and Trump provides that in spades. 

He never gives details about anything! Hillary slaughtered him in the debates in that regard. 

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45 minutes ago, Kurt420 said:

All true. Good point. People are more celeb/scandal obsessed than ever. People love sound bytes and Tweets that they can dramatically wig out over and Trump provides that in spades. 

He never gives details about anything! Hillary slaughtered him in the debates in that regard. 

Yes,  he never gives out any details about what he wants to do, deflects questions with insults and attacks,  flames the worst behaviour in others, can't give an intelligent well thought-out press conference with precise policies and is offensive and mocking to anyone who disagrees with him.  That is frightening to think as being the behaviour and antics of someone who will be the president of the United States.  So many people keep over looking that and the more his supporters excuse his dreadful behaviour and see it as being somewhat brave and hilarious, the worse he will become.  It also deflects and distracts from his policies ( or lack of policies ) and his vile ideology.  

As for the mainstream media, how is Trump mocking them continually going to abide in the future ?   Sure, we all know they can be biased, wrong and hold them up to account but people mistrusting EVERYTHING the media says is also dangerous.  They have footage of things and hard core conspiracy theorists on the net dismiss it and people instead believe them.  I have noticed all of the people I know who are conspiracy theorists big time are huge Trump supporters.  We have to always read between the lines with the media and not believe everything but when it goes the other way - when the media is never trusted or believed, it gives tyrants the power to do what they want. 

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