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Guest Pud Whacker

They didn't listen to me then and they're not listening now  

the more you try and destroy this man, the bigger he's gets. 

next stop: worldwide and you'll only have yourself to blame  

again  

 

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1 hour ago, tumbleweedt said:

The reason I haven't immediately answered the question is to try to draw out potential preconceived notions, such as "Wilders voters certainly would not help refugees". Judging from your posts, it is clear that justice and equality really matter to you. I don't know you, but I interpret your posts as motivated by a wish to make things better for all. As I wrote in an earlier post in this thread, I really dislike demonization in general and in political discussions in particular. It's a trap I also fall into myself, of course. But it's a tendency that shuts down debate. The discussion shifts away from the issue at hand. People tune out. I see it all around: raise some concerns about certain issues and people are immediately labeled Wilders-voters (PVV'er in Dutch based on the abbreviation of his political party). This way the exchange of ideas is shut down and the other side is branded a morally wrong person, who MUST be a racist, fascist, or "Islamophobe". This silencing of debate increases division. 

I don't have to be a supporter of Pegida to defend their right to peaceful demonstrations. When you start breaking the law to fight your opponents - or condoning others to do so - you risk becoming what you despise most. Your opponents may even gain from it.

(just to be sure: I do NOT take your statements as a personal attack / you branding ME a morally wrong person. I understand you mean well. I haven't voted for him. Last time I voted for the animal rights party and before that I voted for the socialist party PvdA).

So that's why I asked @Nikki why she asked me that question, to which she hasn't yet replied. Now, I could fall in the trap of speculating why she hasn't. But I won't.

I asked because I was curious, not to play games. it's interesting to me how you don't wanna say it. I know some people IRL who I see at least once a week.. or every few days, and they are happy trump won. one of them is even a holocaust denier too. we still talk even though we completely disagree. sometimes I find it interesting to hear what the other side is saying.. i think we all should even if we don't agree. we can learn from each other.

this is how I see it.. trump, le pen, and other right wing candidates for presidency found a target to blame all their problems on. specifically economical. but also social.. they can't blame the banks so they look for a more vulnerable crowd that rarely gets to speak for themselves in the media. (and when they do, they're marginalised) they have a scapegoat.  the romas. the muslims.. 

the subtext is simple.. not only are *horrible immigrants* stealing the jobs of the middle class (although they mostly just do the bad jobs us local folk don't want to do. but let's ignore that). , they're also killing innocent locals and tourists in terrorist attacks. they use our welfare. islam wants to kill everyone.. the list doesnt stop

.. .the media is to blame for a lot of it. when anders behring breivik shut a hundred people in norway, we all were told that only HE did something wrong, that he was an outcast and had psychological problems. we don't gneralize (or even marginalize) all norwegians. but that's exactly what happens with everyone BUT white people.

of course there's also fear, but it's mostly about money and nationalism.. even nostalgia. "the good old days". I think trump isn't the worst, it's the people around him, it's some of the presidential candidates and politicians in europe who will take advantage that are the problem. it shocks me that people are falling into the trap. 

but what will happen if they succeed? think about it. a western world where all illegal immigrants and refugees are sent back to their countries. the countries where they had to run from war or terrorism or simply a land where they had no chances to have a normal life. what does that make of us? and if they don't wanna leave? they're gonna put them all on an island so we don't have to deal with them?

and when the economy collapses again, who will they blame next? whose money will they take?  who will they throw out or marginalise next? what will they do? take away maternity leave?  take all the benefits from disabled and sick people?

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42 minutes ago, Nikki said:

I asked because I was curious, not to play games. it's interesting to me how you don't wanna say it. I know some people IRL who I see at least once a week.. or every few days, and they are happy trump won. one of them is even a holocaust denier too. we still talk even though we completely disagree. sometimes I find it interesting to hear what the other side is saying.. i think we all should even if we don't agree. we can learn from each other.

this is how I see it.. trump, le pen, and other right wing candidates for presidency found a target to blame all their problems on. specifically economical. but also social.. they can't blame the banks so they look for a more vulnerable crowd that rarely gets to speak for themselves in the media. (and when they do, they're marginalised) they have a scapegoat.  the romas. the muslims.. 

the subtext is simple.. not only are *horrible immigrants* stealing the jobs of the middle class (although they mostly just do the bad jobs us local folk don't want to do. but let's ignore that). , they're also killing innocent locals and tourists in terrorist attacks. they use our welfare. islam wants to kill everyone.. the list doesnt stop

.. .the media is to blame for a lot of it. when anders behring breivik shut a hundred people in norway, we all were told that only HE did something wrong, that he was an outcast and had psychological problems. we don't gneralize (or even marginalize) all norwegians. but that's exactly what happens with everyone BUT white people.

of course there's also fear, but it's mostly about money and nationalism.. even nostalgia. "the good old days". I think trump isn't the worst, it's the people around him, it's some of the presidential candidates and politicians in europe who will take advantage that are the problem. it shocks me that people are falling into the trap. 

but what will happen if they succeed? think about it. a western world where all illegal immigrants and refugees are sent back to their countries. the countries where they had to run from war or terrorism or simply a land where they had no chances to have a normal life. what does that make of us? and if they don't wanna leave? they're gonna put them all on an island so we don't have to deal with them?

and when the economy collapses again, who will they blame next? whose money will they take?  who will they throw out or marginalise next? what will they do? take away maternity leave?  take all the benefits from disabled and sick people?

Thanks for your reply. Wanna get that in before this thread closes! Seeing it's at 38 pages. I am genuinely concerned about the effects of immigration. And YES, my job is teaching Dutch to non-native speakers. I work with Muslims every day and their religion doesn't play a role for me. However, I am concerned about the rise in antisemitism and homophobia. Of course antisemites and homophobes can be found all over the demographic spectrum. But in large part, the *increase* comes from people who migrated from one/two/three generations ago. I worry about the position of women in our society. 

I worry about radical imams spewing hate speech in mosques. Muslim Brotherhood fanatics with a discourse completely incompatible with the values of our democratic constitutional state.

I wonder about the sustainability of our welfare state. I wonder whether continuing to resettle migrants in the Netherlands is really better than supporting refugee camps closer to the countries of origin. Projections for population growth in Africa are off the charts. Currently European border guards on ships go right up to the coastal waters of Libya and act as a ferry service for migrants from countries that are very poor, but not at war. I feel guilty for my worries, because I have a comfortable life in a First World country and I might do the same as those migrants if I were in their position. The Netherlands is one of the richest countries in the world. I know. And I have lived in Africa. I've seen poverty. But I also believe that these poor countries of origin need the people who are draining away to Europe. 

Unlike you, I do not feel that migrants are underrepresented in Dutch media. My impression is that people who voice these concerns have been marginalized. And when they are shown, they are branded racist.

I don't see serious engagement on these issues by most political parties. That's one of the reasons why I haven't joined the condemnation of Wilders or Marine le Pen on this forum. I don't agree with everything Wilders says. The ignoring of uncomfortable issues by other political parties, often by singing a politically correct tune of multiculturalism, scares me.

I oppose further dilution of national sovereignty to an unaccountable elite bureaucracy in Brussels. 

There will be elections in March 2017. I promise myself I will not vote for parties that ignore these issues.

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1 hour ago, Pud Whacker said:

They didn't listen to me then and they're not listening now  

the more you try and destroy this man, the bigger he's gets. 

next stop: worldwide and you'll only have yourself to blame  

again  

 

Sorry, I don't agree. Trump got 600,000 less votes than Hillary and he got 6,000,000 less votes than Obama in 2012. 

Winning by pure luck and by default doesn't make him big. It makes you the asshole that won because people REALLY weren't feeling these elections. 

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Trump says he will 'immediately' deport two to three million illegal immigrants with criminal records - and insists he WILL build a wall

 
He cannot wait to deport them and bult a wall. Way to go Dnazi, way to go.

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7 hours ago, tumbleweedt said:

I see your point. And I agree with you: violence only begets violence. Maybe in other countries the far left does not vote / have no viable candidates or parties to vote for. In my country however, these socalled anti-fascists of the international socialists most certainly show their political allegiance, even while resorting to violence. These groups are even accompanied and cheered on by elected officials. The mainstream media does not cover this at all. They even make it seem as if the right wing is responsible. "X number of arrests at Pegida demonstration". Turns out most of them are of left wing protesters trying to physically deny other people from exercising their democratic right to participate in peaceful, officially sanctioned demonstrations.

But that's the point. Violent behaviour is never the answer. Doesn't matter where it comes from. Those extremists coming from left and right are as bad as each other. Peace will always be the answer. Acceptance, understanding, unity will always be the answers in places of wars and divisions. A dialogue will always benefit both parties but the KKK for example don't care about having a dialogue. They want supremacy! Hate will never be the answer; hate should never considered as the answer. That's my point.

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4 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

But that's the point. Violent behaviour is never the answer. Doesn't matter where it comes from. Those extremists coming from left and right are as bad as each other. Peace will always be the answer. Acceptance, understanding, unity will always be the answers in places of wars and divisions. A dialogue will always benefit both parties but the KKK for example don't care about having a dialogue. They want supremacy! Hate will never be the answer; hate should never considered as the answer. That's my point.

The KKK is abhorrent. They should be monitored (are they?). Pure racists. I agree with what you write: hate is not the answer.

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I'm still completely distraught over this election. I'm so down, and it's affecting everything from work to social to family.

What bothers me even more than trumpf fake-winning is that the house, senate and supreme court will all be far right-wing. That old bitch Ruth Ginsburg from the supreme court will probably croak sometime soon and he'll replace her with another right winger. That will bring the court to 3 liberals and 6 conservatives.

(And yes she's a old bitch because she should have retired when obama was first elected and democrats had a majority in the senate).

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4 hours ago, WeboGirl said:

 

Before which event?  A racist, misogynist, pussy grabbing, lying, bankrupt, obnoxious, narcissist, moronic, xenophobic, homophobic, bigot clown was elected president?  That event?

This!

People forget who the US President is now. A charlatan idolised by the far right and racist groups! Homophobes support him, too. And of course was also voted by insane celebrities obsessed ignorants! Don't tell me that that's not a scary thought.

We went from the first African American president to a racist one! There's clearly a strategical shift. As to say "we are not done yet!" And I'm sure that was all because of money. This money, money, money mentality has destroyed us to the core. We are all responsible for what's going on. In the end the gap between rich and poor which has been going on since the beginning of time HAVE to stop! We are just learning the hardest way. 

 

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8 minutes ago, whyme? said:

IWhat bothers me even more than trumpf fake-winning is that the house, senate and supreme court will all be far right-wing. That old bitch Ruth Ginsburg from the supreme court will probably croak sometime soon and he'll replace her with another right winger. That will bring the court to 3 liberals and 6 conservatives.

(And yes she's a old bitch because she should have retired when obama was first elected and democrats had a majority in the senate).

You lefties are fucking insane. :wacko:

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55 minutes ago, jaron said:

Trump says he will 'immediately' deport two to three million illegal immigrants with criminal records - and insists he WILL build a wall

 
He cannot wait to deport them and bult a wall. Way to go Dnazi, way to go.

I'm wondering who's going to take their places in those prisons they're building for him with private money! Oh wait! I know! Blacks, Hispanics, Muslims.. other minorities. Possibly even gays and outspoken women! Wake up, people. 

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31 minutes ago, tumbleweedt said:

The KKK is abhorrent. They should be monitored (are they?). Pure racists. I agree with what you write: hate is not the answer.

They should and they usually are. And the most important thing is they haven't got many members because most of them are actually old farts! But I think they will try to facilitate them into having more recruits, into making the young ones think they're right. A child might now think it's okay to be racist if you know what I mean. Our human dignity which says everyone is equal; everyone is the same might disappear if their ancient, ignorant, backwards opinions are widespread. 

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4 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

They should and they usually are. And the most important thing is they haven't got many members because most of them are actually old farts! But I think they will try to facilitate them into having more recruits, into making the young ones think they're right. A child might now think it's okay to be racist if you know what I mean. Our human dignity which says everyone is equal; everyone is the same might disappear if their ancient, ignorant, backwards opinions are widespread. 

Exactly. Education and ensuring children are protected from extremist brainwashers should always be a priority. Anyone know of Trumps ideas on education policy?

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So Trump and his privileged horror family are sitting comfortably on their ivory tower while people are rioting on the streets?

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56 minutes ago, tumbleweedt said:

Exactly. Education and ensuring children are protected from extremist brainwashers should always be a priority. Anyone know of Trumps ideas on education policy?

From his website:

  • Immediately add an additional federal investment of $20 billion towards school choice. This will be done by reprioritizing existing federal dollars.
  • Give states the option to allow these funds to follow the student to the public or private school they attend. Distribution of this grant will favor states that have private school choice, magnet schools and charter laws, encouraging them to participate.
  • Establish the national goal of providing school choice to every one of the 11 million school aged children living in poverty.
  • If the states collectively contribute another $110 billion of their own education budgets toward school choice, on top of the $20 billion in federal dollars, that could provide $12,000 in school choice funds to every K-12 student who today lives in poverty.
  • Work with Congress on reforms to ensure universities are making a good faith effort to reduce the cost of college and student debt in exchange for the federal tax breaks and tax dollars.
  • Ensure that the opportunity to attend a two or four-year college, or to pursue a trade or a skill set through vocational and technical education, will be easier to access, pay for, and finish.

 

Donald Trump on refusing presidential salary: "I won't take even $1"

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/did-donald-trump-say-hed-refuse-to-take-a-salary-as-president/

*   Since 2001, the president has earned a $400,000 annual salary, along with a $50,000 annual expense account, a $100,000 nontaxable travel account, and $19,000 for entertainment. *

 

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12 minutes ago, Love Spent said:

From his website:

  • Immediately add an additional federal investment of $20 billion towards school choice. This will be done by reprioritizing existing federal dollars.
  • Give states the option to allow these funds to follow the student to the public or private school they attend. Distribution of this grant will favor states that have private school choice, magnet schools and charter laws, encouraging them to participate.
  • Establish the national goal of providing school choice to every one of the 11 million school aged children living in poverty.
  • If the states collectively contribute another $110 billion of their own education budgets toward school choice, on top of the $20 billion in federal dollars, that could provide $12,000 in school choice funds to every K-12 student who today lives in poverty.
  • Work with Congress on reforms to ensure universities are making a good faith effort to reduce the cost of college and student debt in exchange for the federal tax breaks and tax dollars.
  • Ensure that the opportunity to attend a two or four-year college, or to pursue a trade or a skill set through vocational and technical education, will be easier to access, pay for, and finish.

So, privatize the U.S. education system and, without saying how, ensure that two or four-year colleges are easier to access... 

You sure know how to pick 'em, Love Spent. :lmao:

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And his tax plan basically cuts billions of dollars from revenue. How is he going to pay for all of this? 

Good luck, America. 

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13 minutes ago, Love Spent said:

Donald Trump on refusing presidential salary: "I won't take even $1"

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/did-donald-trump-say-hed-refuse-to-take-a-salary-as-president/

*   Since 2001, the president has earned a $400,000 annual salary, along with a $50,000 annual expense account, a $100,000 nontaxable travel account, and $19,000 for entertainment. *

 

How gracious of him. Lowering the corporate tax rate to 15% should make up for the difference. But wait! There was something about taxes.

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How many billions obama earned from selling weapons to rebels? 

Why you are all ignoring this?

the evil muslim brotherhood were shitting their pants on the Qatari tv admitting they lost Hillary their endless support... enough said.

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2 minutes ago, ULIZOS said:

And his tax plan basically cuts billions of dollars from revenue. How is he going to pay for all of this? 

Good luck, America. 

THIS! But they had Trumps economical advisor on TV and he said they'll have a balanced household. Sure, extreme spending plus lowering income is definitely creating a balanced household. Maybe he thinks there is a chapter 11 for countries? Who said he has no experience?

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2 minutes ago, spazz said:

How many billions obama earned from selling weapons to rebels? 

Why you are all ignoring this?

the evil muslim brotherhood were shitting their pants on the Qatari tv admitting they lost Hillary their endless support... enough said.

People would take your claims more serious if they weren't so outlandish. You should change your source of information from dubious Facebook posts coming from social bots. Seriously! As if selling weapons was so easy. Especially for private gain. You have seriously no idea how governments in the West really work. It's basically boring bureaucracy with so many people working in the administration that you hardly can't hide any shady business. You are looking for shady business? Look at weapons producers.

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1 hour ago, tumbleweedt said:

Exactly. Education and ensuring children are protected from extremist brainwashers should always be a priority. Anyone know of Trumps ideas on education policy?

Possibly making Ben Carson secretary of education. The quality of education will increase to levels never seen before once you have someone in charge who believes in creationism.

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4 minutes ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

Possibly making Ben Carson secretary of education. The quality of education will increase to levels never seen before once you have someone in charge who believes in creationism.

Speechless_zps224aaf20.gif

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Trump Camp Refuses to Close Door on Campaign Pledge to ‚ÄėLock Her Up‚Äô

WASHINGTON ‚ÄĒ Even as President-elect Donald J. Trump vows to unify a divided nation, he faces a momentous decision over whether to make good on his oft-repeated campaign pledge to have a special prosecutor ‚Äúlock up‚ÄĚ Hillary Clinton.

That decision will signal whether Mr. Trump intends to look ahead and ‚Äúbind the wounds of division,‚ÄĚ as he pledged to do in his acceptance speech early Wednesday, or look back and settle scores, as he often seemed inclined to do during his campaign.

The possibility of a new investigation into Mrs. Clinton’s email server has forced the White House to field questions about whether President Obama might offer Mrs. Clinton a pardon to insulate her from criminal charges.

Josh Earnest, the White House spokesman, said last week that he would not discuss Mr. Obama’s thinking on any particular case for clemency, but he sent a strong signal that it would be inappropriate for Mr. Trump to revive the Clinton investigation.

He told reporters that the country had a long tradition of political leaders‚Äô ‚Äúnot using the criminal justice system to exact political revenge.‚ÄĚ Mr. Earnest said that ‚Äúin fact, we go to great lengths to insulate our criminal justice system from partisan politics,‚ÄĚ adding that ‚Äúthe president is hopeful that it will continue.‚ÄĚ

Chants of ‚Äúlock her up‚ÄĚ became a frequent rallying cry at Trump campaign events, and Mr. Trump told Mrs. Clinton at the second presidential debate that if elected, he would instruct his attorney general ‚Äúto get a special prosecutor to look into your situation because there has never been so many lies, so much deception.‚ÄĚ

If he were president, he told her, ‚Äúyou‚Äôd be in jail.‚ÄĚ That threat unnerved both Republican and Democratic legal analysts.

When Mr. Obama took office, he and his first attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., also faced a decision over whether to investigate the previous administration.

While Mr. Holder said the country was owed ‚Äúa reckoning‚ÄĚ for torture of terrorism suspects carried out after the Sept. 11 attacks, the Obama administration ultimately did not conduct a broad criminal investigation of officials from the Bush administration. Mr. Obama declared that ‚Äúwe need to look forward, as opposed to looking backwards.‚ÄĚ

The F.B.I. has concluded two times, including after a surprise review that began just 11 days before the election, that Mrs. Clinton should not face criminal prosecution over her handling of her private email server. Mrs. Clinton on Saturday blamed her loss in part on the F.B.I.’s last-minute intervention.

Even so, legal analysts said there was little doubt that as president, Mr. Trump would have the power to direct his attorney general ‚ÄĒ Rudolph W. Giuliani has been frequently mentioned for the job ‚ÄĒ to appoint an outside special counsel to reinvestigate the matter in light of new evidence that may have developed.

In an interview with The Wall Street Journal that was published on Friday, Mr. Trump deflected a question about naming a special prosecutor.

‚ÄúIt‚Äôs not something I‚Äôve given a lot of thought, because I want to solve health care, jobs, border control, tax reform,‚ÄĚ he said.

But his top aides have left the door open to such a move.

In an appearance Thursday on Fox News, Mr. Giuliani ‚ÄĒ a top adviser to Mr. Trump on legal and national security issues ‚ÄĒ said he did not think that Mr. Obama should pardon Mrs. Clinton, and he raised the prospect that the Trump administration could investigate not only the email server, but also the Clinton Foundation, the family charity. Several F.B.I. offices are known to have examined questions about the charity‚Äôs acceptance of gifts from foreign leaders, but those inquiries appear to have been paused.

Mr. Giuliani said that during the campaign Mr. Trump had ‚Äútalked about an independent counsel doing it, who would be not a Republican, not a Democrat, somebody free of any political question.‚ÄĚ

The decision about appointing a special prosecutor is a ‚Äútough‚ÄĚ one, Mr. Giuliani said in a separate appearance on CNN. ‚ÄúIt‚Äôs been a tradition in our politics to put things behind us,‚ÄĚ he said. ‚ÄúOn the other hand, you have to look at, how bad was it?‚ÄĚ

Kellyanne Conway, Mr. Trump‚Äôs campaign manager, has also not ruled out a special counsel investigation, saying a decision would come ‚Äúall in good time.‚ÄĚ

But Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey, who is also a Trump adviser, seemed to discourage talk of prosecuting Mrs. Clinton when he was asked about it Thursday on NBC‚Äôs ‚ÄúToday‚ÄĚ show. ‚ÄúPeople get to speak through their vote, and they voted for Donald Trump to be the president of the United States,‚ÄĚ Mr. Christie said. ‚ÄúIt is now his job, and I am confident he will bring the country together.‚ÄĚ

However, Mr. Christie’s influence in the Trump camp appears to be waning. A day after that interview, he was demoted from chief of the Trump transition team in favor of Vice President-elect Mike Pence. Mr. Christie was made a vice chairman.

Democrats say the lingering threats to ‚Äúlock up‚ÄĚ Mrs. Clinton are alarming. They say they hope that Mr. Trump, who has already shown signs of backing away from other campaign pledges, most notably his vow to repeal the Affordable Care Act entirely, will do the same when it comes to threats of prosecuting his defeated rival.

‚ÄúIt would be very, very unwise, in my view, for a new attorney general, acting presumably on the orders of the president, to start out a new administration on this note,‚ÄĚ Richard Ben-Veniste, a prominent Democratic lawyer in Washington, said in a telephone interview. ‚ÄúIt would be mimicking the tin-pot dictators of historical disgrace who seek to punish those who have run against them.‚ÄĚ

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/us/politics/trump-clinton-jail.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=nytpolitics&smtyp=cur

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2 hours ago, jaron said:

Trump says he will 'immediately' deport two to three million illegal immigrants with criminal records - and insists he WILL build a wall

 
He cannot wait to deport them and bult a wall. Way to go Dnazi, way to go.

He's a lowlife racist piece of shit. I thought he was for many years before he announced his candidacy for president.

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It would be interestin to see if Le Pen wins next year in France, in Germany the AFD gets much votes so they are in the parliament and we got Brexits. Besides that netherlands with Wilders, Poland and Hungary...

 

I see some dark clouds in "democratic"  EU

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9 minutes ago, Hector said:

He's a lowlife racist piece of shit. I thought he was for many years before he announced his candidacy for president.

True.  He is a disgusting person and I can't believe that people can defend him.  

Re his education policy, what a joke - giving funds to encourage students to go to private schools.  I am all for people having the choice to go to private schools but if you go, you pay for them yourself.  The government should be spending more money on public schools to give all children a decent education. 

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