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XXL

BREXIT / British Politics thread

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Gina, Democracy and Fundamentalism

"This had to be done" said Gina Miller, one of the parties behind the Art 50 challenge.

 

This challenge is about process, not politics, not solely about Brexit. It's about honouring the place of respectful public debate and the role of parliament in our democracy. Most people now accept, reluctantly in my case, that we will leave the EU, but as this is a complicated matter and so far so badly handled, the manner of our leaving is so important that it can't be left to rule by decree, or exercise of the Royal Perogative. Gina's action has restored Parliament's role in ensuring we get an agreed version of Brexit, and hopefully not the hard one favoured by the hard right.

 

On Democracy as we know it here, there are three pillars on which it is built; remove one and the edifice collapses.
These are Parliament, the Courts and the Executive. They are all independant and interdependent. In this case there are tensions are between the last two. Our own LCJ some years ago at a Human Rights conference expressed those tensions well, and the vital role which judges must exercise independently in scrutinising legislation or matters such as the process of leaving the EU. He said that backwards and forwards there's a 'conversation' between the courts and the legislature, but each must respect the independence of the other. Ultimately, Parliament makes the laws, the Courts interpret them, and may actually strike them down as being non compliant with Human Rights, Equality or in this case, as being constitutionally unsound. While this case will end up in our Supreme Court, I have no doubt whatever that the Government will fail in its appeal. If the Court had held in favour of the Government, they would be saying, "Go on, rule by decree, just like a Roman Emperor: Parliament its MPs and their constituents are as nothing, rather, putty in your hands."

 

Yes, brave Gina, has done us all, and democracy a huge favour. Admire her pluck, her inner strength and praise her for what she has done.

 

On Fundamentalism, we've just seen what I hoped I'd never see in my lifetime, nasty attacks on Gina and her supporters, vile and racist and shamefully fuelled by disgraceful headlines in the Daily Mail about her and the three learned appeal judges who heard the case, compounded by a stoney silence on the part of the Prime Minister and her Justice Secretary. It's clear that the latter, with no legal background, hasn't a clue about the role of the Courts. Some MPs are even suggesting that we scrutinise the way judges are appointed. No thanks: the result would be loss of Independence!

 

But this dangerous drift to Fundamentalism appears to be on the increase. From the local example of the inappropriate, possibly unlawful use of the Petition of Concern, the lunge to the Right in Europe, the Ascendancy of Putin, the creeping dictatorship in Turkey to the madness of the American Presidential campaign where a judge has just had to intervene to prevent Trump supporters from ballot bullying, democracy is more at risk now than it was during at time over the past century.

 

So, back to Gina. Thank you: you're a heroine, and all of us, Leavers or Remainers, will be the richer and safer now.

 

We should always remember that we all, individuals, communities and governments are interdependent on each other, and can thrive so much better within the safe and respectful shelter of each other.

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That woman now being harassed and threatened because of the court verdict is more shameful than the way pro Brexit politicians have behaved in the referendum aftermath. Why are they so afraid for the whole matter to go through parliament? Oh wait, I might already guess

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15 hours ago, XXL said:

That woman now being harassed and threatened because of the court verdict is more shameful than the way pro Brexit politicians have behaved in the referendum aftermath. Why are they so afraid for the whole matter to go through parliament? Oh wait, I might already guess

It is not a matter of being afraid. The public already voted. So of course people that voted LEAVE will be pissed if the outcome changes.

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2 hours ago, bluejean said:

It is not a matter of being afraid. The public already voted. So of course people that voted LEAVE will be pissed if the outcome changes.

And they all should blame the Brexit campaign for this. Maybe they should have told the voters that the outcome of the referendum is not a binding result and that it's still up to the parliament to decide whether to leave or not. Maybe people should place their anger at those that have constantly lied to them. So many things Farage and Co. have said that are simply false. What was it there on the bus in regards to the NHS? It all comes down to facts. But who cares about facts? Oh shit, this sounds pretty familiar.

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They should have discussed the issue in parliament BEFORE.  then decide if it should be done.  If it's decided,  then do the referendum.  

But voting and later discussing is ABSURD! 

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2 minutes ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

And they all should blame the Brexit campaign for this. Maybe they should have told the voters that the outcome of the referendum is not a binding result and that it's still up to the parliament to decide whether to leave or not. Maybe people should place their anger at those that have constantly lied to them. So many things Farage and Co. have said that are simply false. What was it there on the bus in regards to the NHS? It all comes down to facts. But who cares about facts? Oh shit, this sounds pretty familiar.

But then again you can make a pool and know what people think.  Not a big circus with a referendum. 

Let's face it,  if the result had been Remain it would have been biding and everything already forgotten.  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, karbatal said:

But then again you can make a pool and know what people think.  Not a big circus with a referendum. 

Let's face it,  if the result had been Remain it would have been biding and everything already forgotten.  

 

 

There would have been a vote in the parliament as well. And from my knowledge most members of the parliament were in favor of remain anyway. The whole referendum was a legal mess from the get go.

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I hate the idea of referendum's. It is scary to say but I actually trust the government to make these decisions more than I trust the public. And what is the point in having a vote and then not going forward with the favoured result? Democracy is already a sham as it is, no need to rub it in people's faces.

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I think an issue as big as brexit shouldn't have been done via referendum. there were and are still too many variables to consider and i feel that both sides didn't inform the public as well as they should have on what would actually happen, (the government still don't know what they want to do and i think they will drag it out as long as they can btw) and don't even get me started on the media coverage of the court ruling, it's absolutely despicable. the people voted blindly for something they knew little about and are now regretting it

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....a fascist regime that made you a MORON

 

 

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Well from a legal point of view a voting in the Parliament could be needed. As far as I read the referendum was consultative (to consult the Parliament) not binding to the Parliament. If thats the case the court is obliged to take the decision they did take. One has to ask why the referendum wasn't binding? Were someone afraid of the result or what?

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9 hours ago, bluejean said:

It is not a matter of being afraid. The public already voted. So of course people that voted LEAVE will be pissed if the outcome changes.

By "afraid" I was not referring to the public and voters' perspective but to the politicians that strenuously pushed for Brexit and the moment their favoured outcome materialised they immediately washed their hands clean of the consequences. Those same politicians know about one fundamental little detail and that is that in parliament the number of MPs who'd vote in favour of Brexit does not outnumber those that would vote against it, regardless of the 52% vs 48% outcome among voters on referendum day. This issue has been brought up countless times in June already. And that is why those pro Brexit politicians now feel shortchanged because it once again proves the whole thing was allowed to go ahead to serve a completely different purpose than allowing British citizens to have a say on such a delicate issue. I.e. British internal party politics

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4 hours ago, pjcowley said:

 

God I love Rowling more and more each day 

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Now Theresa May is quarrelling with FIFA over the poppy

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Is the poppy a political symbol in England? I thought it was only specific to Northern Ireland because of the Troubles in the 80's and protestant supermacy etc

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3 minutes ago, BrendanT1993 said:

Is the poppy a political symbol in England? I thought it was only specific to Northern Ireland because of the Troubles in the 80's and protestant supermacy etc

It is meant in remembrance of all British soldiers who've lost their lives in the two global conflicts if I am not mistaken

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Just now, XXL said:

It is meant in remembrance of all British soldiers who've lost their lives in the two global conflicts if I am not mistaken

ah, i see. what's the big deal if people choose not to wear them, surely they can not wear a poppy but show respect another way?

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Not sure what the precontext to this story is but apparently FIFA said they wouldn't allow players to display the poppy. May was asked about in a parliamentary session

 

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to get back on topic I think Farrage should be arrested for inciting violence the way he was calling for riots and protests. I thought Gina conducted herself very well and that pesky man shouldn't be given any air time at all

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If only that cartoon were the case. We're hurtling towards Brexit, and the right wing media have created such a frenzy over anything/anyone that stands in the way of it that hardly ANYONE even has the guts to say anything different anymore.

And good for Gina. A private citizen who used her own money to challenge in the courts a woman who thought she could go ahead and do whatever she wanted without consulting the parliament, like we're living in some tin-pot dictatorship? I think not. 

This is the shit enveloping part of this country....and God help anyone who dares think otherwise...

 

brexit-tabloids-780x439.jpg

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