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5 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

I think some people in the Brexit camp need a reality check. It is absolutely unclear to me what they actually expect. Do they seriously believe nothing will change or they will get access to the single market without accepting the rules that apply to all members? I repeat what I have said many many times before, the best the UK can get is a deal similar to the Norway one. That basically means the UK pays as much money as before, all laws and regulations apply as before but the UK will no longer have a say in making those laws and regulations. Hopefully for the UK, the City of London has not left in big parts for mainland Europe or to Dubai or Singapore in the meantime. The idea that the UK government wants to have a 5 year transition phase is exactly what the British economy needs. Prolonged uncertainty. But I guess as long as the UK enjoys a growth thanks to higher exports and tourism simply because of a low pound, everything is fine and Brexiteers can still pretend how the Brexit has not caused any problems to the UK at all, still ignoring the hard fact that NOTHING has happened to far.

 

Amen

I guess retaining the Sterling Pound and not being part of Schengen was not enough 

The ridiculousness of all of it is how British politicians who were/are in favour of Brexit have misleadingly "sold Brexit" to UK voters who have expressed the same concerns over the efficiency of the EU as a political construct other EU member countries people have voiced. You cannot expect to enjoy the advantages of single market access while telling all other 27 nationalities that they're going to have to sort out the immigration and refugee crisis issue on their own, That's very convenient, arrogant and wholly unrealistic. The same pro brexit politicians who washed their hands clean of everything the moment they got the result they so pushed for by the way

And all the nonsense about Poland, Bulgaria and Romania I have read in some posts in this thread. I hope some do know the British political class have championed the entrance of ill-fit economies such as those of those Eastern European countries mentioned the most (and by ill-fit I mean not fit to cope with the absurd demands of Brussels in terms of austerity and common monetary policy, never mind the 28 different fiscal systems etc), simply because they wanted to make the Franco-German engine of the continent less dominating. But now they complain about Polish immigrants? They probably have no idea about the millions who have entered (and that have been welcomed) Greece, Italy, France and Spain in the last 20 years alone, due to their geographical position. 

The fact that the UK entered the single market project when their economy was in the gutter during the 70s and hugely benefitted from a participation which was rife with discounts of all sorts speaks volumes in itself

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http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37625067

Pound falls further against the euro and the dollar

 

Traders in London

 

The pound has extended its losses against both the dollar and the euro in late trading on Tuesday.

Against the dollar it has fallen more than 2%, at one point dropping below $1.21, while against the euro it fell below €1.10.

Sterling has now fallen about 19% against the dollar since the UK's vote to leave the European Union, to lows not seen since 1985.

One analyst said it was "trading like an emerging market currency".

At one point the pound hit $1.2088 against the dollar on Tuesday evening and against the euro it touched €1.0939.

The pound is at its lowest level since Friday's flash crash, when it tumbled to around $1.18 before recovering.
 

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Ten pound note

 

Neil Wilson from ETX Capital said the mood around the pound had been extremely negative in recent days and that it was "now trading like an emerging market currency."

He also said comments by a senior Bank of England official had not helped.

Michael Saunders, a member of the Bank's interest rate-setting committee, said earlier that the pound could still "fall further", but that the recent sharp drop was not an immediate cause for concern.

 

Bank threat

The comments were interpreted as a signal that the Bank could keep interest rates lower for longer.

 

Earlier in the day, some traders had said sterling came under pressure from reports that US banks Citi and Morgan Stanley could move staff out of London, adding to worries about foreign investment leaving the UK.

"It really isn't terribly complicated. If we are outside the EU and we don't have what would be a stable and long-term commitment to access the single market then a lot of the things we do today in London, we'd have to do inside the EU 27," said Rob Rooney, chief executive of Morgan Stanley International.

Traders also pointed to leaked documents, warning that a withdrawal from the EU single market could cost the Treasury more than £66bn a year, as a reason for the drop.
 

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The pound was absurdly high anyway.  It should be nearer to euro and dollar.  This drop will benefit in the short time,  exports will be easier and oil is still cheap. 

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European countries are already championing to attract businesses from the city with cheaper offices and secure space.  

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The pound in your pocket is now worth far less, that's the long and short of it. Joe Bloggs, that was tricked into thinking he was sticking his fingers up to the establishment (and anyone with a non-English surname) might just have second thoughts when he's out buying his cigs and bottles of cider and scraping his pockets to find the extra £ he needs to pay for it.

From a personal pov, I know of three large construction contracts that have been cancelled (so far) as a direct result of the uncertainty over Brexit . Investment has stagnated, and the sheer confusion and cluelessness that's going to continue for years has hardly even started.

Sickening.

 

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5 hours ago, Kim said:

The pound in your pocket is now worth far less, that's the long and short of it. Joe Bloggs, that was tricked into thinking he was sticking his fingers up to the establishment (and anyone with a non-English surname) might just have second thoughts when he's out buying his cigs and bottles of cider and scraping his pockets to find the extra £ he needs to pay for it.

From a personal pov, I know of three large construction contracts that have been cancelled (so far) as a direct result of the uncertainty over Brexit . Investment has stagnated, and the sheer confusion and cluelessness that's going to continue for years has hardly even started.

Sickening.

 

Hey Kim, do you think that a second one could soon be a reality.....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/13/nicola-sturgeon-challenges-may-with-second-referendum-bill-scottish-independence-snp-conference

... along with independence this time?

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https://www.ft.com/content/df4885fa-9160-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923

‘Hard Brexit’ or no Brexit, Donald Tusk warns UK

Idea that Britain can retain benefits after leaving is ‘pure illusion’, says European Council chief

 

 

The president of the European Council has told the UK that the only real alternative to a “hard Brexit” or clean break from the EU is to remain a full member of the bloc.

Speaking at a conference in Brussels, Donald Tusk dashed the hopes of those hoping Britain could remain inside the EU’s single market or negotiate some special form of association. The tenor of the UK’s referendum campaign had been to “radically loosen relations with the EU, something that goes by the name of ‘hard Brexit’,” he said.

“In my opinion, the only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit,” Mr Tusk said. “Even if today hardly anyone believes in such a possibility.”

Since Theresa May, UK prime minister, suggested London would opt for a clean break from membership of the single market in her party conference speech this month, the pound has taken a battering on foreign exchange markets as investors worry about the economic implications.

In remarks that are likely to infuriate prominent Brexiters in the British government, Mr Tusk set out a bleak picture for the negotiations to come between the UK and the rest of the EU, saying that there would be no winners, only losers. “This scenario will in the first instance be painful for Britons,” he said.

Paraphrasing UK foreign secretary Boris Johnson’s campaign trail claim that a post-Brexit Britain would “have the EU cake and eat it too”, Mr Tusk said: “The brutal truth is that Brexit will be a loss for all of us. There will be no cakes on the table for anyone. There will only be salt and vinegar … The words uttered by one of the leading campaigners for Brexit …[were] pure illusion.”

Taking questions after the speech, Mr Tusk extended an olive branch to London, saying that he had not encountered a single leader on the continent “who is happy with this result of the British referendum”.

He said he was “absolutely sure” that “in the future, if we have a chance to reverse this negative process, we will find allies, I have no doubt”.

 

Turning to the exit talks, Mr Tusk said that the promises of the Leave campaign in the referendum to “take back control” by rejecting “freedom of movement” for workers and ending contributions to the EU budget meant that there was no realistic chance to negotiate a “soft Brexit” where Britain retained substantial ties to Europe.

In stark terms, Mr Tusk said that it was “useless to speculate about soft Brexit”.

Mr Tusk also said he expected the exit talks to last considerably longer than the two years foreseen under the so-called Article 50 procedure in the EU’s treaties. “I think the process will be much longer than two years,” he said.

 

 

 

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Someone has to take the hit

Should it be the supermarket, the supplier or should YOU the consumer pay the price?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, XXL said:

 

 

 

She's the only one so far who has shown to be consistently true to her words and keeping her promises, unlike those lying deceitful Brexit turds.

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10 minutes ago, pjcowley said:

She's the only one so far who has shown to be consistently true to her words and keeping her promises, unlike those lying deceitful Brexit turds.

Exactly. 

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With all the consequences...,  are people really talking about fucking MARMITE????????? 

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2 hours ago, karbatal said:

With all the consequences...,  are people really talking about fucking MARMITE????????? 

It's a symbol for how complicated the situation is. Of course, it shows the British customer what a Brexit / low pound means for their shopping basket when it comes to foreign goods. Basically they have to pay more for the same stuff. Now people will argue that Marmite is a British product. Made in the UK. Made with British ingredients. How can this be affected by the exchange rate of the pound? Marmite is owned by Unilever. Unilever is Dutch/British group. This group consists of Unilever NV with headquarters in Rotterdam listed at the Amsterdam stock exchange and Unilever PLC with headquarters in London listed at the London stock exchange. (Unilever is also listed at NYSE). For some reason Marmite seems to be owned by the Dutch part of Unilever . The balance sheet of Unilever NV is in Euro. That makes Marmite basically an imported product when it's really not.

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What's with Scotland? If Scotland got a second referendum and this time the result was to leave the British Union... would Scotland be automatically in the EU or would it have to start as a third country all the proccess? 

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10 minutes ago, karbatal said:

What's with Scotland? If Scotland got a second referendum and this time the result was to leave the British Union... would Scotland be automatically in the EU or would it have to start as a third country all the proccess? 

Very good question. I guess, technically Scotland on its own is not part of the EU, just like Wales or England and Northern Ireland aren't either. They are only part because they are part of Great Britain which is a member of the EU. In result Scotland will need to apply. But I'm pretty sure it will get preferential treatment for a very quick joining of the EU considering that basically all policies and rules are already implemented in Scotland. I don't know about the Euro, that's a whole different story.

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It's really fascinating because in Spain we are facing the segregation from Catalonia. From Madrid it's always a bunch of meneacing opinions and Brussels has said that it's against any segregation and that Catalonia will have to wait years and years to enter the EU. 

But now this Scotland thing happens and surely Brussels would be so happy to accept Scotland, so Catalonia will ask for the same treatment (in case there's ever a referendum in Spain). 

Of course, our Spanish Government very fast answered yesterday that is against any segregation of Scotland. Spain will try to make things complicated in Brussels!!! 

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23 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

Very good question. I guess, technically Scotland on its own is not part of the EU, just like Wales or England and Northern Ireland aren't either. They are only part because they are part of Great Britain which is a member of the EU. In result Scotland will need to apply. But I'm pretty sure it will get preferential treatment for a very quick joining of the EU considering that basically all policies and rules are already implemented in Scotland. I don't know about the Euro, that's a whole different story.

I guess scotland´s situation will be different, they won´t be at the end of the line.They have been saying that they want to be in the EU,and if they leave the UK, it will be because they think they can be fast enough in the Union.there is no case of  hurt egos - feelings between scottish people and the EU.Actually, it will work as a huge Fuck U to the brexit lovers

 

catalonian or basque counrty´s situation is different. First of all, is not legal to have a referedum asking for the independence. And,Spain hasn´t been fucking EU, unlike the brexiters.SO the escenario is totally different, both inside spain and outside from here

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Probably a certain kind of deal could be made on Scotland if it secedes from UK prior to Brexit: indeed the member is UK but Scotland is de facto a region of that country and has been applying EU law since 1973 (what should EU and Scotland negotiate? Yes members of Parliament etc, but those could be negotiated within Brexit). I think it would be stupid to make Scotland apply again unless UK is opposing a deal with EU/Scotland. There has been cases of regions of a country (Denmark) leaving EU (Greenland) while Denmark staying so I could see the reverse deal being negotiated. If Brexit happens and Scotland secedes I could see an international threaty regulating Brexit and simultaniously being a threaty regulating Scotlands membership. I mean it would be an international treaty with the same juridicial force of the Lisboa treaties. The only problem would be that a party should be also UK.

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Well it's such a weird scenario.  Scotland would need an army to be part of the NATO,  because both supranational bodies are intertwined.  However Scotland can be member or the European Economic Area, like Norway,  Switzerland and Liechtenstein and even member of the Schengen area, like Switzerland.  

It's a good opportunity for the EU to develope new strategies for these uncommon scenarios. 

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On 13/10/2016 at 9:27 PM, pjcowley said:

Hey Kim, do you think that a second one could soon be a reality.....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/13/nicola-sturgeon-challenges-may-with-second-referendum-bill-scottish-independence-snp-conference

... along with independence this time?

It's only a matter of time really, and it needs to be perfect timing taking Brexit into account. Nicola continues to play it well. Just by announcing (what is only a ) consultation on a second bill, she's strengthening her hand when it comes to Brexit negotiations. She (and we) want to remain in the single market and that's what she wants May to take to the negotiating table for Scotland...with the 'threat' of a referendum in the background.

But the fact is they don't want another referendum until the polls indicate decisively that they'll win, so it's a waiting game to see the potential damage May's probable Hard Brexit does, but in order to remain in the EU, any steps Scotland takes need to be before we exit. It's legally possible and probable that an independent Scotland before Brexit could simply take the UK's current seat at the EU table, inherit all the current treaties and make amendments from within etc. For Scotland to be taken out of the EU, then get independence, then have to reapply would be a logistical mess.

Either way, the tide has already turned, and to be blunt: as the older generation carks it, the new are already seizing the day.

 

On 14/10/2016 at 11:18 AM, karbatal said:

It's really fascinating because in Spain we are facing the segregation from Catalonia. From Madrid it's always a bunch of meneacing opinions and Brussels has said that it's against any segregation and that Catalonia will have to wait years and years to enter the EU. 

But now this Scotland thing happens and surely Brussels would be so happy to accept Scotland, so Catalonia will ask for the same treatment (in case there's ever a referendum in Spain). 

Of course, our Spanish Government very fast answered yesterday that is against any segregation of Scotland. Spain will try to make things complicated in Brussels!!! 

Well Brussels didn't make those remarks about Scotland in 2014, they more or less said they didn't know what would happen, but I'm pretty certain it would have been a case of fast track membership as all treaties stretching back 30 odd years were already in place. They didn't want to say a clear "yes" though, because their preference was for the UK to stay together as is.... before this entire mess of course.

I do remember Spain was really the only dissenting voice when Nicola went over to Brussels just after the EU referendum (while the rest of the jokers were in hiding) because of the Catalonia situation. You always see a couple of Catalonia flags at SNP rallies etc, I've noticed, lol. I'm not that familiar with the similarities though. Do they have their own legal, education, healthcare system like Scotland, do they already have a devolved parliament from central government like we do?

 

7 hours ago, karbatal said:

Well it's such a weird scenario.  Scotland would need an army to be part of the NATO,  because both supranational bodies are intertwined.  However Scotland can be member or the European Economic Area, like Norway,  Switzerland and Liechtenstein and even member of the Schengen area, like Switzerland.  

It's a good opportunity for the EU to develope new strategies for these uncommon scenarios. 

The NATO thing is interesting, because the SNP is vehemently against trident, which normally would be a problem for NATO membership, but as the UK's trident nuclear weapon base is in Scotland and would take years to disassemble, then membership would be almost mandatory in return for striking a transitional period deal, and afterwards, it would be foolhardy to disrupt the current (non nuclear) defence systems already in place in the North Atlantic and North Sea by somehow excluding Scotland.

As far as an army is concerned, Scotland has it's own regiments within the UK forces and independence would see them just take their share of the current maritime and aviation fleets.

Anyway, I was watching Queen Nicola's closing conference speech on the telly earlier today which just highlights the gulf between her politics and the insular sinister Tories and the shambolic ineffective mumblings from Labour.

 

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It's really interesting that there are Scottish regiments inside the British army!  I didn't know.  

In Spain we have 17 parliaments.  Every region has its own chamber and issues like education or health is administered by those parliaments.  That's why for many Spaniards the Catalanish or Basquish  independence pretentions are difficult to understand.  the only thing we depend on Madrid is the budget.  Taxes are payed,  half the money is sent to Madrid and then is redistributed among the regions. Those with more needs get more.  That means that richer regions such as Catalonia or Basque Country have to give part of their money to others like Andalusia.  It's all about the money.  

Our region system is very weird.  Some people think that too much money is spent in so many parliaments.  Others,  like me,  have experienced how much better things work since we can make our own politics and strategies in every region.  Before that my region,  Aragón, was forgotten and we only got absurd plans.  

If Catalonia got to be independent,  other regions would want the same and Spain will cease to exist. Maybe we go back to Castilla Kingdom and Aragón Kingdom (Catalonia,  Aragón, Valencia and Mallorca) ,  like we were prior 1492. 

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Technically, they're currently part of the British Army of course, but all those regiments stretch back hundreds of years, long predating the union with England.

Ah, the Catalonia situation isn't that different then. Do those parliaments for each region have different political parties elected to run them? Is the Catalonia Parliament run by a pro-independence party?

That's the tricky tightrope that the SNP walks here. They are the governing party, but while a lot of people support their policies and vote for them, they don't necessarily support independence, despite that being the whole point of the SNP,  but they are really the only left-of-centre party left here since Labour basically destroyed themselves, and Scotland never has been, and never will be a conservative Tory country, so they're here to stay one way or another, and independence will come eventually.

It is all about the money. Despite the recent drop in oil prices (which will reverse at some point) the billions of £££ in revenue piped from here down to London over the years is staggering. They were never gonna let that go without a fight.

Obviously the big stumbling block for Catalonia is that, as you say, if they get it, it opens the floodgates for the rest to want it as well. 

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10 hours ago, karbatal said:

 

I  the only thing we depend on Madrid is the budget.  Taxes are payed,  half the money is sent to Madrid and then is redistributed among the regions. Those with more needs get more.  That means that richer regions such as Catalonia or Basque Country have to give part of their money to others like Andalusia.  It's all about the money.  

Our region system is very weird.  Some people think that too much money is spent in so many parliaments.  Others,  like me,  have experienced how much better things work since we can make our own politics and strategies in every region.  Before that my region,  Aragón, was forgotten and we only got absurd plans. 

two things about this: remember that in basque country/navarre we have our own taxation system, we pay to madrid for all the things they do here (army, police, public TV...)and we keep the rest of the money to solve our problems, and to pay the solidarity money for poorer regions. It´s a good system, at least in here it works and thanks to that a lot of people are confortable in the spanish system, unlike in catalonya, where they don´t have our tax system. On the other hand, if something goes wrong, we won´t receive money help from other spanish regions, that´s why this system maybe wouldn´t work everywhere in spain.

 

and, the spanish region system is not weird! is not a feredeal system, becausee the central government allows regions to do a lot of things, but that´s it, it allows us, and they can have it back if they want to. In fact, they are doing it (education laws...).So it´s not a federal system either, where the regions have their own rights

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10 hours ago, Kim said:

 

Obviously the big stumbling block for Catalonia is that, as you say, if they get it, it opens the floodgates for the rest to want it as well. 

and again, the big different is that in the UK is legal, in spain is not: some people even talk about military actions if something similar starts to happen.actually, that´s what the constitution says (article 8?)

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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37670091

Boris Johnson makes light of 'semi-parodic' pro-EU column

Boris Johnson has defended his writing of a pro-EU article days before he publicly backed Brexit, saying the article was "semi-parodic" and the UK's decision to leave was right

 

 

 

 

:wacko:

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Can't say I was surprised when it came out that he was about to declare as pro-EU just days before jumping into the other camp. Just more proof that the whole thing was about internal party politics and their own political careers.

And what does Theresa May do, knowing what a shape-shifting cunt he is?  Makes him Foreign Secretary of course.

Rotten to the core.

 

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fuckin BOJO

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