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Spain...destroying themselves from the inside

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The horrible thing about this situation is that is very complex politically, historically, economically but also socially. If you add some corrupt politicians both sides with zero capacity, the dish is done and serve. 

I don't know how will all this turn out, but I PRAY that the EU intervens, there's an independence, every part accepts the consequences (they will be big not only in Spain, but the whole eurozone, hence Spain being in the euro) and time to move on.

But this won't happen because our politicians (and the rest of the world, it seems) are the worse in decades and the people (in the rest of the world too ) have turned into this absurd masse of gullible creatures feeding their brains with junk from social media. 

 

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46 minutes ago, Django said:

Again, in order to solve a problem you need to know not most but ALL about it.

Also, the fact that ignorant people can cast a vote is one of the main reasons the world is at this state. 

You are free to express your opinion of course, just don't get mad when people keep pointing out your lack of knowledge on the subject while you keep bringing your uninformed point of view on a subject that requires, at least, having a base in order to understand what is going on. 

We are not the clever police, we happen to be Spanish so we kinda get what's going on. 

The subject is not only complex itself, but as current events unfold it keeps getting more and more complicated altogether.

Well I gave the solutions. It's just that people are way too self obsessed to deal with today's problems. I don't need to know the ins and outs of every situation to come with the knowledge that this worlds repeating history on a loop and if people don't change their mind and hearts then what's the point in even suggesting solutions? The international press is calling the whole thing a shame for Spain. On tv these Catalonia peeps look to be a rough bunch. Football matches are more entertaining.

Oh well, Ima leave you smart heads to discuss this topic freely with no interruptions from ignorant peeps like me. Catalonia can move to Mars as far as I'm concerned. Good to know Spain is as every bit fucked up as the rest of this world. Peace.

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50 minutes ago, karbatal said:

The horrible thing about this situation is that is very complex politically, historically, economically but also socially. If you add some corrupt politicians both sides with zero capacity, the dish is done and serve. I don't know how will all this turn out, but I PRAY that the EU intervens, there's an independence, every part accepts the consequences (they will be big not only in Spain, but the whole eurozone, hence Spain being in the euro) and time to move on.But this won't happen because our politicians (and the rest of the world, it seems) are the worse in decades and the people (in the rest of the world too ) have turned into this absurd masse of gullible creatures feeding their brains with junk from social media. 

Yeah, and its kind of strange that the King Of Aragon ruled Catalonia for a long time, then Aragon united with Castilia and then the Borbons got rid of the autonomy in line with what was happening in France. But again, if Aragon doesn't have that movement and it was the seat from where the whole eastern part of Spain was ruled, why Catalonia has it? I think its obvious: money.

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12 minutes ago, elijah said:

Yeah, and its kind of strange that the King Of Aragon ruled Catalonia for a long time before the Borbons got rid of the autonomy in line with what was happening in France. But again, if Aragon doesn't have that movement and it was the seat from where the whole eastern part of Spain was ruled, why Catalonia has it? I think its obvious: money.

The kingdom of Aragon was lost after the Catholic Kings died and their grandsom Carolus V, emperor of HIspania and Germania ruled. From then on there was no more real kingdom. Castilla and Aragon were united into what is known now as Spain, together with the new recovered Granada, which still was part of the Arabs until 1492. The parliaments in Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia and Balearic Islands still existed, until the XVIII century. First fell the Aragon Parliament and some years later (maybe 7 years later?  the Catalanish. 

Even though we were together for so many centuries, we never were the same, mind. Catalonia has always had a personality and has been itself a nationality. The case of Aragon is different because being in the border between the Aragon Kindgom and Castila Kingdom, we always tried to serve as bridge between both kingdoms. In fact, our language in Aragon, which is as old as the Spanish language or the CAtalanish language, was very soon lost and finally only spoken in the mountains. We very soon accepted Spanish because it was easier to trade with them. In Catalonia, though, people kept their language. Being further from the frontier helps too. Look at Switzerland and which language they speak depending on which country they border.

But all that is simply history, just like other countries have their history. For me, the most important thing is that when economy turned into an exchange of manufactured goods between countries, all efforts were made to create near France and in the main important ports, all the factories and build new and better ports. All that effort meant that regions who were on other parts of the country were in disadvantage. Just like the north of Sweden or the north of Norway or the South of Italy are less developed than the parts bordering with European countries. 

I can understand when somebody doesn't feel Spanish. I don't care much, because I don't feel much Spanish either, I feel much more Aragonish. I don't have much in common with somebody from Andalucia, for example. And since I was only 10 y.o. when we entered the EU and it was such a magical moment, I've always loved the EU and didn't mind much about Andalucia, flamenco or bullfighters. During the 90s my region had its own Parliament too, our own laws, different from the Spanish ones which come from the Middle Ages... We have our little traditions restaurated and we could feel we were part of Aragon again.

 I always understood separatist people But when their argument is that "Spain robs our money. Spanish are lazy cows" then it irks me. Who worked in your factories for 150 years??? Spanish people coming from other regions working in factories supported by Madrid! 

So if you want independence, sit down and start making sums to make the bill, my dear. 

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As this thread is a rare opportunity to speak about things that normally aren't mentioned, even though maybe nobody cares I will explain a bit more about Spain and the fact that we are a little Yugoslavia since 500 years. 

 
1. Spain is the mix of several kingdoms: Castilla, Aragon and Navarra. But Castilla before had swallowed other kingdoms from the north and northwest. That's why in Galicia (far nortwest) they have their own language, very simmilar to Portugese. 
 
2. Spain nowadays have 17 autonomies. With 17 parliaments. Each parliament ruling, deciding themselves about education, health, even security matters (Catalonia, Basque Country and Navarra have their own Police. In Aragón we could too, but it was too expensive and we have just some kind of little department) 
 
3. We have different languages too: Castellanish (Spanish), Catalan, Valencian (very simmilar to CAtalan), Aragonese, Basquish, Galleguish... Why, you may ask? Because after the fall of the Roman empire and the Visigoths ruling here and there, the Arabs conquered us for 700 years. They were incredibly good and beautiful Arabs, which created all kind of structures to bring water to dry zones, and who were academics giving to the world all kind of discoverings in Medicine, Astronomie... We still have their castles, many words in Spanish come from them and their hidraulic infraestructures are still in use. Even so many centuries afterwards. 
 
But in the up north they couldn't rule and there little kingdoms were created by noble Christian men and their armies, whose interest was to take territories from the Arabs and make all the territory Christian again. Catalonia was born there, as a very little part, and next to Catalonia it was Aragon. Very near, Navarra, and near Navarra other little places. Little by little, these noblemen won more and more territories until the Arabs were expelled from the Peninsulae in 1492. But this strange situation lead to a big space with several kingdoms with lots of things in common but very different too, with different languages. Some of them were united in the West (Castilla) and other in the East (Aragon). Aragon and Catalonia were united by marriage and since then we were together. But always with our own Parliament. The same with Valencia and Balearic Islands (what now is Mallorca or Ibiza). Aragon (that is, the sum of Aragon, Valencia, Catalonia, Balearic)  was a very modern kingdom, the king had to answer to the Parliaments, we were the ones that invented what now is known as Ombudsman... Machiavello's Prince was inspired in the Aragon King. The first "modern" monarch in history.
 
No matter how many centuries, we always felt different. ALWAYS. and Castillia, the kingdom that finally won everything, had something really negative: whenever a territory was controlled, all traditions were very soon erased. This is Spain now and that's why many territories feel hurt, bad or want to be out.
 
During the XIX century, other countries in Europe went through the same process. Germany and Italy went through a unification. But the difference between Germany/ Italy and Spain is that they had a common enemy in First World War and Second World War. Psichologically, if a folk is attack by a enemy, they feel united. The brand new Germany and the brand new Italy very soon created a national identity. Spain, however, was immerse in a Civil War in the XIX Century, didn't take part in IWW or IWW and suffered another Civil War in the XX Century. No enemy from the outside. Always from the inside. Then 40 years of dictature were a stupid fascist wanted to create a Spanish Race identity and tried to erase other identities. We all suffered. Sometimes Basquish or Catalanish feel as if they were the only ones suffering, but many territoires had their traditions forbidden and erased.
 
Nowadays we are a bit like Yugoslavia. United but very different one another. But, thanks to democracy, since 1978  we all can speak the language we want, we can make laws in our regions, we can control our finances in health or education... We have enough space to be satisfied. Until now.  

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There is a whole lot of sensationalism going around. The Generalitat in Catalonia claims there were almost 900 wounded people yet official numbers from the Catalonian health services show only four people have been hospitalized.

A woman who was pulled by her hand was giving interviews claiming they broke all of her fingers this Sunday. In one of her statements she said the police broke her fingers one by one and touched her boobs. 

However as it's been pointed out images show she was indeed pulled from the right hand with no sexual fondling, yet she emerged with her left hand in a cast instead, Gaga style. She was also seen in public comfortably handling her mobile with both hands afterwards.

So after her testimony of a brutal attack coupled with sexual harassment that left her with a broken hand made the rounds she changed her version to having a swollen finger on TV. Still with the wrong hand in a cast btw.

No one is excusing police violence, most people arr against it but it's been certainly been blown out of proportion when official numbers from Catalonia show only 4 people had to be hospitalized and one of them was an older man who had a heart attack.

 

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Loving the scenes of huge crowds of Catalans on the telly. Democracy in action despite the fascist state and the propaganda machine in overdrive trying desperately to do damage control .. .. too late, we all saw it.

Also love the embarrassing silence from Madrid and Brussels.

 

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Just now, karbatal said:

El problema es que creo que muchos nos sentimos incómodos en España :lol: Siempre he pensado que somos como Yugoslavia y unidos a la fuerza. 

A lot of people are in your situation. Because of ETA, I coudn´t even imagine it, but now... everything is coming out

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Just now, Kim said:

Loving the scenes of huge crowds of Catalans on the telly. Democracy in action despite the fascist state and the propaganda machine in overdrive trying desperately to do damage control .. .. too late, we all saw it.

Also love the embarrassing silence from Madrid and Brussels.

 

madrid had another march in favour of catalonia´s rights. And the police did what the government told them to do...and yes, I also love the catalonians being together on this, especially when they show images of pro independence people and pro spain people together against this situation!:inlove:

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11 minutes ago, promise to try said:

madrid had another march in favour of catalonia´s rights. And the police did what the government told them to do...and yes, I also love the catalonians being together on this, especially when they show images of pro independence people and pro spain people together against this situation!:inlove:

If only this meant all people united expelling the horrible Rajoy government.  Can you imagine???? 

By the way, the USELESS king of ours will finally speak after all these days.  Let's see the generic crap that he will give. 

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Just now, karbatal said:

As this thread is a rare opportunity to speak about things that normally aren't mentioned, even though maybe nobody cares I will explain a bit more about Spain and the fact that we are a little Yugoslavia since 500 years. 

 

 

 

 
 
 
 
 
Nowadays we are a bit like Yugoslavia. United but very different one another. But, thanks to democracy, since 1978  we all can speak the language we want, we can make laws in our regions, we can control our finances in health or education... We have enough space to be satisfied. Until now.  

Karbi! you make me write and read a lot!!!

1. Spain is the mix of several kingdoms: Castilla, Aragon and Navarra. But Castilla before had swallowed other kingdoms from the north and northwest. That's why in Galicia (far nortwest) they have their own language, very simmilar to Portugese.

actually, portuguese is similar to galician: remember that the the reconquering of the peninsula was from the north to the south. and remember also that a lot of PP peopl talk about these languages as dialects of the spanish, as a negative thing .

 

2. Spain nowadays have 17 autonomies. With 17 parliaments. Each parliament ruling, deciding themselves about education, health, even security matters (Catalonia, Basque Country and Navarra have their own Police. In Aragón we could too, but it was too expensive and we have just some kind of little department) 

 

again, yes, but no.remember: the regional constitutions , well, at least the basque one, hasn´t been completed. 40 years on, and the spanish government, with both PP or PSOE, don´t respect the regional law.Also, this law lets us do things, they are not considered our rights.They lets us do, and if they are not happy with as, there is the now famous article 155 that stops the autonomy.by the way, we always think that the regional president/government are our representatives, but legally they are the substitute of the king when he is not in that region. olé.that´s what 1978´s constitution says.The spanish government lets you do things, if we are ok with it.And you have a president which is only the substitute of the king whenh he is not there.

 

3. We have different languages too: Castellanish (Spanish), Catalan, Valencian (very simmilar to CAtalan), Aragonese, Basquish, Galleguish... Why, you may ask? Because after the fall of the Roman empire and the Visigoths ruling here and there, the Arabs conquered us for 700 years. They were incredibly good and beautiful Arabs, which created all kind of structures to bring water to dry zones, and who were academics giving to the world all kind of discoverings in Medicine, Astronomie... We still have their castles, many words in Spanish come from them and their hidraulic infraestructures are still in use. Even so many centuries afterwards. 

we can start talking about spani only after the bourbons start reigning here. Before, we only had a grroup of kingdoms that had different laws, rights, borders...the kingdoms were more interested in creating catholics than creating one big kingdom. until the bourbons appeared.

 

4-No matter how many centuries, we always felt different. ALWAYS. and Castillia, the kingdom that finally won everything, had something really negative: whenever a territory was controlled, all traditions were very soon erased. This is Spain now and that's why many territories feel hurt, bad or want to be out.

 

againm there were more interested in a religious unity than any other thing.BUt I guess this is not very different from other kingdoms in europe.

5-During the XIX century, other countries in Europe went through the same process. Germany and Italy went through a unification. But the difference between Germany/ Italy and Spain is that they had a common enemy in First World War and Second World War. Psichologically, if a folk is attack by a enemy, they feel united. The brand new Germany and the brand new Italy very soon created a national identity. Spain, however, was immerse in a Civil War in the XIX Century, didn't take part in IWW or IWW and suffered another Civil War in the XX Century. No enemy from the outside. Always from the inside. Then 40 years of dictature were a stupid fascist wanted to create a Spanish Race identity and tried to erase other identities. We all suffered. Sometimes Basquish or Catalanish feel as if they were the only ones suffering, but many territoires had their traditions forbidden and erased.

 

During the 19th century spain had two civil wars.at least in the basque country, were really important, and the beginning of the anti spain feeling (carlists wars).My family is the typical example. My granmother´s grandfather fought with the carlists, and after that all the separatist ideology appeared in my family.And, even tough is difficult to believe it, until 1876 Navarre´s legal situation was the same than a colony!!! there were inside borders only until a few generations ago!

6-Nowadays we are a bit like Yugoslavia. United but very different one another. But, thanks to democracy, since 1978  we all can speak the language we want, we can make laws in our regions, we can control our finances in health or education... We have enough space to be satisfied. Until now. 

 

Again, we have not the right to do it. The spanish government lets us do it.and This last PP government has been trying to recover a lot of the powers that they had let us use during this last decades

 

 

7-I´m starting to be scared.

 

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2 minutes ago, promise to try said:

Karbi! you make me write and read a lot!!!

1. Spain is the mix of several kingdoms: Castilla, Aragon and Navarra. But Castilla before had swallowed other kingdoms from the north and northwest. That's why in Galicia (far nortwest) they have their own language, very simmilar to Portugese.

actually, portuguese is similar to galician: remember that the the reconquering of the peninsula was from the north to the south. and remember also that a lot of PP peopl talk about these languages as dialects of the spanish, as a negative thing .

 

2. Spain nowadays have 17 autonomies. With 17 parliaments. Each parliament ruling, deciding themselves about education, health, even security matters (Catalonia, Basque Country and Navarra have their own Police. In Aragón we could too, but it was too expensive and we have just some kind of little department) 

 

again, yes, but no.remember: the regional constitutions , well, at least the basque one, hasn´t been completed. 40 years on, and the spanish government, with both PP or PSOE, don´t respect the regional law.Also, this law lets us do things, they are not considered our rights.They lets us do, and if they are not happy with as, there is the now famous article 155 that stops the autonomy.by the way, we always think that the regional president/government are our representatives, but legally they are the substitute of the king when he is not in that region. olé.that´s what 1978´s constitution says.The spanish government lets you do things, if we are ok with it.And you have a president which is only the substitute of the king whenh he is not there.

 

3. We have different languages too: Castellanish (Spanish), Catalan, Valencian (very simmilar to CAtalan), Aragonese, Basquish, Galleguish... Why, you may ask? Because after the fall of the Roman empire and the Visigoths ruling here and there, the Arabs conquered us for 700 years. They were incredibly good and beautiful Arabs, which created all kind of structures to bring water to dry zones, and who were academics giving to the world all kind of discoverings in Medicine, Astronomie... We still have their castles, many words in Spanish come from them and their hidraulic infraestructures are still in use. Even so many centuries afterwards. 

we can start talking about spani only after the bourbons start reigning here. Before, we only had a grroup of kingdoms that had different laws, rights, borders...the kingdoms were more interested in creating catholics than creating one big kingdom. until the bourbons appeared.

 

4-No matter how many centuries, we always felt different. ALWAYS. and Castillia, the kingdom that finally won everything, had something really negative: whenever a territory was controlled, all traditions were very soon erased. This is Spain now and that's why many territories feel hurt, bad or want to be out.

 

againm there were more interested in a religious unity than any other thing.BUt I guess this is not very different from other kingdoms in europe.

5-During the XIX century, other countries in Europe went through the same process. Germany and Italy went through a unification. But the difference between Germany/ Italy and Spain is that they had a common enemy in First World War and Second World War. Psichologically, if a folk is attack by a enemy, they feel united. The brand new Germany and the brand new Italy very soon created a national identity. Spain, however, was immerse in a Civil War in the XIX Century, didn't take part in IWW or IWW and suffered another Civil War in the XX Century. No enemy from the outside. Always from the inside. Then 40 years of dictature were a stupid fascist wanted to create a Spanish Race identity and tried to erase other identities. We all suffered. Sometimes Basquish or Catalanish feel as if they were the only ones suffering, but many territoires had their traditions forbidden and erased.

 

During the 19th century spain had two civil wars.at least in the basque country, were really important, and the beginning of the anti spain feeling (carlists wars).My family is the typical example. My granmother´s grandfather fought with the carlists, and after that all the separatist ideology appeared in my family.And, even tough is difficult to believe it, until 1876 Navarre´s legal situation was the same than a colony!!! there were inside borders only until a few generations ago!

6-Nowadays we are a bit like Yugoslavia. United but very different one another. But, thanks to democracy, since 1978  we all can speak the language we want, we can make laws in our regions, we can control our finances in health or education... We have enough space to be satisfied. Until now. 

 

Again, we have not the right to do it. The spanish government lets us do it.and This last PP government has been trying to recover a lot of the powers that they had let us use during this last decades

 

 

7-I´m starting to be scared.

 

Don't be.  The European Union will help us....  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:lmao:

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Omg I just laughed so much. I was speaking with my boy about the king giving a speech tonight and he asked "what do you think he will say?"  and I said "He will avoid Catalonia. This is to announce Kylie's new album"  

:lmao:

 

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37 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Don't be.  The European Union will help us....  

:lmao:

:dead:

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39 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Omg I just laughed so much. I was speaking with my boy about the king giving a speech tonight and he asked "what do you think he will say?"  and I said "He will avoid Catalonia. This is to announce Kylie's new album"  

:lmao:

 

Omg :rotfl:Is he really that useless? By the way, Spain has a great history and its a history proving that you have, you can and hopefully you will continue to live in unity.

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Just now, karbatal said:

Omg I just laughed so much. I was speaking with my boy about the king giving a speech tonight and he asked "what do you think he will say?"  and I said "He will avoid Catalonia. This is to announce Kylie's new album"  

:lmao:

 

Blond ambition´s DVD!!!!!!

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Just now, elijah said:

Omg :rotfl:Is he really that useless? By the way, Spain has a great history and its a history proving that you have, you can and hopefully you will continue to live in unity.

the king will talk about the unity of the nation, about the respect to the constitution, and about the wonderful police we have.and hopefully about a duet with sinitta!

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43 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Don't be.  The European Union will help us....  

:lmao:

Oh I so want you NOT to be kidding and to be right... And Catalonia is "internal question" as if Spain is not part of EU... They should be chairing the negotiations...

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1 minute ago, promise to try said:

the king will talk about the unity of the nation, about the respect to the constitution, and about the wonderful police we have.and hopefully about a duet with sinitta!

blah blah blah but SINITTA :)

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Just now, elijah said:

blah blah blah but SINITTA :)

I can totally picture it!!!!!!!! sinitta will be reigning again in spain!!!!!!!!!!! her new song , "respect to the empire of the law" the Bourbon mix!!!

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31 minutes ago, promise to try said:

the king will talk about the unity of the nation, about the respect to the constitution, and about the wonderful police we have.and hopefully about a duet with sinitta!

You are clairvoyant :wow:

That was exactly what the king said.  Sadly,  no mention of Sinitta or Kylie :-(

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Omg if Sinitta were to be the Queen of Catalonia... 

 

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