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promise to try

Spain...destroying themselves from the inside

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14 minutes ago, promise to try said:

speaking about disaster zones...can you imagine the crazyness if the catalonian´s declare  themselves independent the 12 of october?????:lol:

I hope so. At this point this is a case of I'm going I'm going I'm going.  

They should declare independence and if we had a normal Government,  not the stupid Rajoy who always fucks up everything,  it's only a matter of 24 hours when the situation dissolves: a elite corrupted conservative party having to decide what to do along a left radical party... Let's grab popcorn!  The only point in common about those people in the independence.  Once gained...

Rumor is that the conservative Puigdemont is shit scared of how far this has got: his party is sustained by the rich families and banks, same banks who have lost 10 billion euro in just ten days in the markets and who have announce their intention to move their social base to SPAIN today :lmao:

But if he doesn't declare independence,  the far left CUP will stop supporting him in the Government and that means new elections and this time no possibility of coalition. Mess. Either the CUP wins by majority or the independents won't be ruling catalonia.  

But surely stupid Rajoy will do something that gives these people more oxygen,  as he did last Sunday :lol:

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Stupid ppl, they will simply devastate a prosperous region for their own gain... Why secede when they are quite fine? I still don't get it. Barcelona is the last place you d think the locals are oppressed...

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Just now, elijah said:

Stupid ppl, they will simply devastate a prosperous region for their own gain... Why secede when they are quite fine? I still don't get it. Barcelona is the last place you d think the locals are oppressed...

they have some objective reasons to complain, other are, I guess, based on feelings, and others...well. For exaple, apparently some politicians from CIU have a lot of money in andorra, and next year all the data will be reveleaded.And they were going to jail, so, if they are independent,they may nopt go.anyways, at this point it´s difficult to separate reality from propaganda.

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48 minutes ago, promise to try said:

...can you imagine the crazyness if the catalonian´s declare  themselves independent the 12 of october?????:lol:

Independence Day! :tigger:

I mean, this whole thread is about what a corrupt embarrassment of a country this is,  and yet people who collectively decide to try something different and use their democratic right to do so are pilloried. Madness.

Better tell every other country in the world that's declared their independence from another nation what a big bad mistake they made. 

Go Catalonia! And :ohwell:Spain!

 

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8 hours ago, Kim said:

Silly old cow...

maybot.jpg

The letters falling down behind her is the best part, :dead:

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Just now, Kim said:

Independence Day! :tigger:

 

 

vut the funny thing would be that the 12 of october they celebrate the spanish (hispanity?) day!!! or the race day as some of the oldest people still call it!

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Just now, Kim said:

 

I mean, this whole thread is about what a corrupt embarrassment of a country this is,  and yet people who collectively decide to try something different and use their democratic right to do so are pilloried. Madness.

Better tell every other country in the world that's declared their independence from another nation what a big bad mistake they made. 

Go Catalonia! And :ohwell:Spain!

 

the thing is that we don´t know how mauch these people were/are, because the referendum wasn´t clear, because apparently some people voted mjore than twice, because it wasn´t suppose to be to declare the independence but more a simbolic thing...but if they really want to go, I´m totally in favour. but so far we don´t know that. If some day we (basques) have a referendum, I hope it will be a good one, and not this.

anyways, I have talked to my father: he is expecting politicians going to jail, elections in spain, more violence...the luxury pack.

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18 minutes ago, promise to try said:

the thing is that we don´t know how mauch these people were/are, because the referendum wasn´t clear, because apparently some people voted mjore than twice, because it wasn´t suppose to be to declare the independence but more a simbolic thing...but if they really want to go, I´m totally in favour. but so far we don´t know that. If some day we (basques) have a referendum, I hope it will be a good one, and not this.

anyways, I have talked to my father: he is expecting politicians going to jail, elections in spain, more violence...the luxury pack.

If they let people make the referendum Spain wouldn't be in that mess. People could express their voice and the result would be clear. Spain government only get what they deserve. This is a shame, really.

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yes.and now the most important banks from catalonia are leaving.well, they are like rats.I´m sure they will be back when they smell money again

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11 hours ago, Kim said:

Independence Day! :tigger:

I mean, this whole thread is about what a corrupt embarrassment of a country this is,  and yet people who collectively decide to try something different and use their democratic right to do so are pilloried. Madness.

Better tell every other country in the world that's declared their independence from another nation what a big bad mistake they made. 

Go Catalonia! And :ohwell:Spain!

 

Errrrr.. 

The whole country is not corrupted,  its the big parties and the Catalán ones are the most corrupted along the PP.

  Your cultivated and intelligent Catalan friends that you said you have surely have told you about that. 

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9 hours ago, runa said:

If they let people make the referendum Spain wouldn't be in that mess. People could express their voice and the result would be clear. Spain government only get what they deserve. This is a shame, really.

Yes. 

If the referendum had been made some years ago things would be different. 

But we have a very stupid party in Madrid who wanted to use all this mess as smoke curtain to hide all the corruption scandals. The same with the main Catalan party. For both, this has gone out of hands.  

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2 hours ago, karbatal said:

Errrrr.. 

The whole country is not corrupted,  its the big parties and the Catalán ones are the most corrupted along the PP.

  Your cultivated and intelligent Catalan friends that you said you have surely have told you about that. 

You have a central government that uses state sponsored violence against its own people, you have a "king" that fails to condemn his own subjects being beaten up. That's corrupt. I have a feeling that there's more violence on the way, too.

I didn't say I had many Catalan friends. I said that the many Catalans that came over here during our 2014 referendum (to see democracy in action) where intelligent and thoughtful about issues within their own movement and how they pertained to the wider international community. 

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1 hour ago, Kim said:

You have a central government that uses state sponsored violence against its own people, you have a "king" that fails to condemn his own subjects being beaten up. That's corrupt. I have a feeling that there's more violence on the way, too.

I didn't say I had many Catalan friends. I said that the many Catalans that came over here during our 2014 referendum (to see democracy in action) where intelligent and thoughtful about issues within their own movement and how they pertained to the wider international community. 

If corruption means using overwhelming violence to pursuit ideas,  then Spain would be in the bottom of the list compared to countries who bomb population and destroy other countries. 

Let's get real OK?  Don't get all Pud Whacker in this thread as if this was the Trump one 

Corruption is abusing your power to get rich and help elites.  In Spain case that's happened with Conservative and Socialists in Madrid and with Conservatives in Catalonia.  The same very man who decided to pursue the referendum when less than 10% of the population declared being independent,  Artur Mas,  is no longer president of Catalonia because the far left expelled him from the process because he was part of a corruption net that has stolen money from Catalan people the past 30 years. 

What's the point of giving those opinions against a whole society like the Spanish one with absolute no idea?  Is this your way to have fun? 

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In many case, violence is used as an instrument for the achievement of corrupt purposes. It is linked.

The government uses violent action so his people won't see what it wants to hide. 

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31 minutes ago, runa said:

In many case, violence is used as an instrument for the achievement of corrupt purposes. It is linked.

The government uses violent action so his people won't see what it wants to hide. 

Very well.  But when it comes to the phrase "Catalonia wants to be independent to separate from corruption"  it is not the violence we are talking about. Simply because the Catalanish Police,  the Mossos,  is the Corp with more denounces and complaints in Spain because of overwhelming force.  Only five years ago they dissolved a gathering of students and young people who were peacefully asking for solutions against the crisis like this. 

Due to these incidents,  where a student lost his eye due to a rubber ball,  the Mossos were forbidden to use this material again.  

It is HORRIBLE what happened last Sunday in Barcelona and our riot Police has a SEVERE problem.  But to picture now Madrid as fascist and "corrupted"  based on several police agents when the same happened in Catalonia five years ago is stupid.  

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As I tried to explain here last Sunday,  this is a very complicated issue full of POISON and propaganda from both sides. 

It's a dangerous issue. As we have seen in UK,  USA, France or Germany,  to use social passions and hate to pursuit political aims is very dangerous and nobody wins. Only the elites that created the turmoil in the first place. 

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49 minutes ago, karbatal said:

If corruption means using overwhelming violence to pursuit ideas,  then Spain would be in the bottom of the list compared to countries who bomb population and destroy other countries. 

Let's get real OK?  Don't get all Pud Whacker in this thread as if this was the Trump one 

Corruption is abusing your power to get rich and help elites.  In Spain case that's happened with Conservative and Socialists in Madrid and with Conservatives in Catalonia.  The same very man who decided to pursue the referendum when less than 10% of the population declared being independent,  Artur Mas,  is no longer president of Catalonia because the far left expelled him from the process because he was part of a corruption net that has stolen money from Catalan people the past 30 years. 

What's the point of giving those opinions against a whole society like the Spanish one with absolute no idea?  Is this your way to have fun? 

No, my opinion is based upon -

1. What you guys have said about Spain in this thread.

2. What' I've read and watched in the news the last few months.

3. My own visits to Barcelona, one of my favourite cities.

The context of this discussion is 2017 democratic Europe. There's no point bringing up middle eastern dictatorships or whatever and saying "well at least it's not as bad as...."

Abusing power to get rich and help elites is a worldwide pandemic. I guess some countries are better at hiding or dressing it up than others.

The president or government of Catalonia are NOT Catalonia. People often forget that whoever is in power when a country gains independence does not automatically stay in power forever. The people choose their own government. These are all basic principles of modern democracies we're talking about here, the problem being that old fascistic habits are hard to break for some countries.

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7 minutes ago, karbatal said:

As I tried to explain here last Sunday,  this is a very complicated issue full of POISON and propaganda from both sides. 

It's a dangerous issue. As we have seen in UK,  USA, France or Germany,  to use social passions and hate to pursuit political aims is very dangerous and nobody wins. Only the elites that created the turmoil in the first place. 

The worldwide elites that control the worldwide economy do NOT want individual states to secede I can guarantee you that. 

The propaganda that's being fed into mainstream media about poor old democratic Spain and how these terrible separatists are causing so much trouble and such a bad example to the rest of beloved Europe..  is fooling no one. 

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1 hour ago, Kim said:

No, my opinion is based upon -

1. What you guys have said about Spain in this thread.

2. What' I've read and watched in the news the last few months.

3. My own visits to Barcelona, one of my favourite cities.

The context of this discussion is 2017 democratic Europe. There's no point bringing up middle eastern dictatorships or whatever and saying "well at least it's not as bad as...."

Abusing power to get rich and help elites is a worldwide pandemic. I guess some countries are better at hiding or dressing it up than others.

The president or government of Catalonia are NOT Catalonia. People often forget that whoever is in power when a country gains independence does not automatically stay in power forever. The people choose their own government. These are all basic principles of modern democracies we're talking about here, the problem being that old fascistic habits are hard to break for some countries.

Ok this is Trump Thread part II and I'm too old for this. 

I tried to explain here why there are much more to consider. And there's a lot to read if anybody wants. 

Anyone interested in something else can tag me here or Promise To Try or Django or Jesús.  If there's some doubt about any issue. We have been living here for decades.  In my case I unfortunately had to be kept informed about this because of my profession. Unfortunately because I prefer much more interesting issues.

In Promise to Try case his opinion is interesting because he lives in Basque Country and can very well understand the feelings of people from Catalonia. 

It would have been great if anyone from Catalonia added some info here.  With more reality our opinions and views would be richer!  

 

 

 

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Karbatal, this discussion has been really interesting for me. Hopefully you will continue keeping us informed, because this has been the news for me lately. I so hope both parties find a solution and Catalonia stays within Spain.

I personally feel like this whole situation could have been sponsored by states like Russia who would like to see EU weaker and dealing with internal problems instead of concentrating on expanding on the Western Balkans for example. Or playing a more prominent role on the international scene or concentrating on reforming itself deeply, like Macron has proposed. I see it as another Brexit really that weakens Spain and EU and I hope Catalonians don't fall for that trap.

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Just now, elijah said:

 

I personally feel like this whole situation could have been sponsored by states like Russia who would like to see EU weaker and dealing with internal problems instead of concentrating on expanding on the Western Balkans for example. Or playing a more prominent role on the international scene or concentrating on reforming itself deeply, like Macron has proposed. I see it as another Brexit really that weakens Spain and EU and I hope Catalonians don't fall for that trap.

that has been mentioned before sunday, I really don ´t know if Putin can be insise something...they said it was inside trump too, and even inside brexit...but I really don´t have any proof.

 

I´m thinking about the bank´s movements.They are going outside catalonia, IMO to keep the spanish market, but I don´t really know if they leaving is that bad for catalonia. I mean, do they pay taxes in there? I mean, BBVA pays taxes in the Basque country, but we have that atxation system that catalonia doesn´t have and were asking before they started talking about the independence.If they don´t pay taxes there, it´s only a way to clean their images in front of the unionist people.and apparently they leave and go to Valencia, a part of spain that the pro independence catalonians consider also theirs...win-win? again, banks are rats

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Just now, karbatal said:

As I tried to explain here last Sunday,  this is a very complicated issue full of POISON and propaganda from both sides. 

 

yes!!! some objective facts and a lot of crap poisoning everything.and propaganda to.. now apparently some policeman are saying sorry for what happened this friday, and blaming their bosses. I´ve seen the info in the basque tv: and still don´t know if it´s real or not.

same with the judge saying that voting this last sunday wasn´t ilegal. itr wasn´t legal, but not ilegal either. Even if it may weird for you, I come here trying to find a little bit of truth between what I see, what karbi says, and with what everybody from their country is reading or watching in their TVs or newspapers

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12 minutes ago, promise to try said:

yes!!! some objective facts and a lot of crap poisoning everything.and propaganda to.. now apparently some policeman are saying sorry for what happened this friday, and blaming their bosses. I´ve seen the info in the basque tv: and still don´t know if it´s real or not.

same with the judge saying that voting this last sunday wasn´t ilegal. itr wasn´t legal, but not ilegal either. Even if it may weird for you, I come here trying to find a little bit of truth between what I see, what karbi says, and with what everybody from their country is reading or watching in their TVs or newspapers

 

Oh it's true. The Government admitted that the violence was excessive.  At last! 

Well thanks God this weekend I don't have to work on the National / International section!!!!!!?  I have to work this weekend and was on the verge of tears of thinking that I had to deal with eight pages of Catalonia contents and they called me today (today I didn't go to work)  to tell me that I will be covering the Pilar Fiestas!!!!!  Yeeeeeeaaaah 

How do you say Fiestas del Pilar in English?  Major Feasts?  City Celebration Feast?  

Anyway I will be on the street surrounded by musicians and all that!!!!! Yay! 

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Just now, karbatal said:

 

Oh it's true. The Government admitted that the violence was excessive.  At last! 

Well thanks God this weekend I don't have to work on the National / International section!!!!!!?  I have to work this weekend and was on the verge of tears of thinking that I had to deal with eight pages of Catalonia contents and they called me today (today I didn't go to work)  to tell me that I will be covering the Pilar Fiestas!!!!!  Yeeeeeeaaaah 

How do you say Fiestas del Pilar in English?  Major Feasts?  City Celebration Feast?  

Anyway I will be on the street surrounded by musicians and all that!!!!! Yay! 

yep, and ada colau will be there too...I really like her!!!! anyways, have fun!

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12 hours ago, elijah said:

Karbatal, this discussion has been really interesting for me. Hopefully you will continue keeping us informed, because this has been the news for me lately. I so hope both parties find a solution and Catalonia stays within Spain.

I personally feel like this whole situation could have been sponsored by states like Russia who would like to see EU weaker and dealing with internal problems instead of concentrating on expanding on the Western Balkans for example. Or playing a more prominent role on the international scene or concentrating on reforming itself deeply, like Macron has proposed. I see it as another Brexit really that weakens Spain and EU and I hope Catalonians don't fall for that trap.

Omg lets blame Putin for everything :lmao:

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52 minutes ago, Nessie said:

Omg lets blame Putin for everything :lmao:

He officially and directly sponsored Le Penn campaign and her official goal was to fuck up the euro, propose such EU reforms that wouldn't have been accepted so in the end the goal was Frexit and break up of the EU. The link with Trump is under investigation. UK has stated that Russian hackers have been influencing the Brexit vote, on the Brexit side. What those 3 and Catalonia have in common? They created problems (some unsuccessfullly like in France) for EU so that it is dealing with internal problems and it have no time for any activities in the east like in Georgia, Ukraine etc...

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Just now, karbatal said:

 

Oh it's true. The Government admitted that the violence was excessive.  At last! 

 

and now the police is not happy with the government because of this!

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Omg now Artur Mas admits that Catalonia is not ready to be independent :lmao:

I am screaming :rotfl:

What's next?  That Puigdemont takes off a mask and all was some TV prank?  

Really we have the worst politicians. 

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3 hours ago, elijah said:

He officially and directly sponsored Le Penn campaign and her official goal was to fuck up the euro, propose such EU reforms that wouldn't have been accepted so in the end the goal was Frexit and break up of the EU. The link with Trump is under investigation. UK has stated that Russian hackers have been influencing the Brexit vote, on the Brexit side. What those 3 and Catalonia have in common? They created problems (some unsuccessfullly like in France) for EU so that it is dealing with internal problems and it have no time for any activities in the east like in Georgia, Ukraine etc...

I don't think there's any foreign interest here tbqh.  This all has an Almodovar "Made in Spain" sticker. 

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Just now, karbatal said:

Omg now Artur Mas admits that Catalonia is not ready to be independent :lmao:

 

and now they say that he didn´t want to say that...really, this shit it´s making brexit´s politicians look like nobel award winners. and it´s not almodoval: it´s "amanece que no es poco" 2.0

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